MHR's 2008 Position Review -- Running Backs

Few positions among Denver's battered crew have as much controversy surrounding them, in regards to what they are capable of producing. NYCbroncosfan makes a strong case for limited production as a philosophical trend, and advocates addressing the running game by taking a hard look at the personnel, in order to cut the dead weight and replace with production where necessary. Even as he stated his case, the Broncos fired RBs PJ Pope, Alex Haynes, and fan-favorite, Anthony Alridge.
And that is just the beginning of the hard look.
What remains of the 2008 RB M.A.S.H. unit consists of change-up runners Tatum Bell, Selvin Young and Andre Hall. It also has the power styles of RBs Michael Pittman and Ryan Torain, as well as FB Peyton Hillis. As a wild-card, RB Cory Boyd managed to survive the first purge, while true FB Andrew Pinnock and converted MLB Spencer Larsen, playing at FB, rounds out the crew.
The reason RB is such a controversial position going into 2009 is because the number of variables cause the splits between the different camps to be amorphous and ill-defined. In defending one's opinion against one argument, a person finds that they actually hold an opinion they hadn't endorsed. One thing is quite certain however: the position was plagued by injuries in 2008. Try to follow along...
It started with Torain, Alridge and Hillis, with Hillis never getting enough reps in camp due to a lingering hamstring injury, Alridge and his own hamstring injury going to IR with what was called a sprained foot, and Torain breaking his elbow. Torain would eventually return on Nov.6th only to go to IR with an torn ACL. When Torain went down, Young was battling a torn groin he sustained 5 weeks earlier. It would sideline him for two games before he ruptured a disc in his neck and would be moved to IR, only a week after a hamstring injury IR'ed Hillis. Of course, they weren't alone on IR as Hall and Pittman had gone on IR earlier. Hall went to IR after a short season that featured 3 games limited by a wrist injury, 5 games limited by an ankle injury, and finally a hand injury that ended his season. Pittman had suffered through a broken rib after falling awkwardly on the ball earlier in the season but was finally sent to IR with numbness from a neck injury that wouldn't dissipate. Pope, one of the final pieces added near the end of the season would also go to IR for a hamstring injury, and even part-timer Larsen would suffer through bouts with a hip injury, and a groin injury that limited him as the season wound to a close.
A list like this can only stupefy and amaze, but at some point the shock wears off and you have to ask, "Did we bring this on ourselves?"
Tatum Bell literally came out of nowhere to help out for half a season. He occupied the change-up role as well as he ever did, but unfortunately, most of his actual production came only in the final game against San Diego, and frankly, that production came as a bit of a surprise. It wasn't that I was shocked to see him get a couple of long runs, it is that up to that point, he had shown that he was STILL a player who went backwards on first contact. He actually seemed like he was running with a little purpose, but one game is hardly a decisive sample, and the rest of the evidence contradicts his supposed value. Tatum has a much better attitude, mostly due to the reality check that being out of football provided for him, but he is still an underachiever who can't seem to realize his potential. When you add in that that potential fades every year, you will begin to understand why he isn't a strong candidate to end up in camp in 2009. While possible, it is more likely that Denver lets his FA status run its course without making an offer. His history of injuries, particularly his nagging bouts with turf toe, create a a situation where his roster spot may be more valuable than he is.
Not a year goes by where Hall doesn't seem to feel the lingering effect of the high ankle sprain he suffered in high school. Most who have suffered from the injury can attest to its longevity, and for Hall it seems to crop up once a year. But outside of the ankle sprains he suffers, his hands seem to give him more trouble than anything. In 2008 he injured his thumb in camp, than hurt his wrist early in the season, which limited him in practice, and put him on more than one inactive list for a game, and though his ankle slowed him down, it wasn't until he suffered a undisclosed injury to his hand that he got placed on IR.
But of all the change-up backs, Hall may have the most talent, and he certainly has the strongest running style. His low profile protects him more than it hurts him, and he knows how to fall forward. Talk of fumble-itis may be levied against Hall, but outside of the back to back fumbles against NE, he hasn't had any problems in that area. And while injuries may be considered a concern for Hall, I am only worried about the ankles, because the rest is pretty ticky-tack and I firmly believe that it was his standing in Shanny's doghouse that kept him off the field and contributed to his IR more than the beat-up hands.
As an exclusive-rights free agent, I would expect Hall to be invited to camp with an easy-on-the-eyes contract, with an expectation of showing that he can still perform against competition. If he stalls out in camp, he won't make the opening day 53.
In many ways, Young and Hall are mentioned in the same sentences. Though they were both signed to the active squad in the same year, and were both UFAs, Hall is actually a step ahead of Selvin in the development category, having played more college ball, and joined the Broncos a year earlier. But Young is the one tagged with being the better back of the two over the last two years, including being penciled in as a de facto starter several times, and even making the "Promise."
But Selvin has never risen to any of the lofty expectations placed on him, and it isn't just a trend limited to the Broncos. At Texas he missed 3 games in 2003 with a torn groin. In 2004 he missed the entire season with a broken ankle. In 2005 he injured his right ankle on two separate occasions, missing two games each time. In 2006 he missed a game with a left ankle sprain, and then missed two more games with a rib injury. In 2007 with the Broncos he injured his elbow and was limited in practice, and then sprained his knee and would end up missing five games as the season, and the Broncos playoff chances wound down and out.
2008 was no exception to this trend. In October he strained a groin muscle which would chronically limit him in games and practice starting in week 5. By week 10, he had completely torn the groin and was out for three weeks. When he finally returned, a solid hit would rupture a disc in his neck, sending him to IR. Folks, there is no reset button on the human body. Selvin is sustaining injuries at a rate that practically precludes the ability to recover, and frankly, the total is astonishing at this point.
But when healthy, there is no doubt that Selvin can produce. So much so in fact, that he was labeled a starter in waiting at Texas, behind Cedric Benson and by Mike Shanahan in Denver. His is a great story, about a kid who discovered how character can help you overcome adversity, but the production will never be there if we ask for too much.
Because Selvin is signed, there is no doubt he will be present in camp. If he is smart he will focus on nailing down the starting change-up back role, and do his best to stay healthy. The Broncos will probably only retain two change-ups, so he has little room for error, but he should still be able to make the team. But unless something drastic changes in regards to his chronic injuries, he is on the path out of Denver over the next couple of years.
Pittman has the kind of veteran mindset that a young team like Denver needs, and which was always coveted in New England. It is the mindset where a player runs each play like it is going to be their last, and where everything gets left out on the field. There is an excellent chance that McJedi will also covet it, but Pittman's free agent status may make the decision less than a slam dunk.
Before hurting his ribs, and then sustaining a scary neck injury, Pittman brought some much needed physicality to the Broncos offense. What the offense then lacked in versatility, it made up for by determination. But when good defenses keyed on Pittman, he began to take a beating. Though he is an older player, he has kept the mileage low while in Tampa Bay, and he has a good attitude towards his own health and fitness, so that trend should continue. But to get the most out of him, the reps will need to be kept to minimum, which means that he will be #3 at best on the depth chart. As the #3 he creates a standard that the starters will have to meet or beat, with versatility and drive, but in a rebuild, the luxury of stocking the team with great RB talent may not be there. As a #2, the value for Pittman and the Broncos simply isn't there, as he would take too much of a beating in that role, and be used up by the time the December football rolls around, when he will be needed most. If the Broncos plan on bringing in top RB depth, Pittman should be a keeper, but if they plan on going with what they have, Pittman will probably be let go to find a better situation, while the younger bruisers are retained, to take the beatings that are sure to come. Pittman reported after the season that he is 100% healthy, so the onus is on the staff to decide what kind of team they are looking to become as the Broncos move forward.
The biggest question mark hovers over Ryan Torain, who has played less football than I have over the past two years. He hasn't exactly been stocking shelves at Walmart, but he certainly hasn't been able to run full speed for some time. Starting in 2005 with the Sun Devils, he missed four games, and then in 2007 missed a total of nine games, including the final seven of the year with a fractured right toe and ankle injuries. In Denver, of course, he didn't get off to a hot start, with the worst news being the damaged ACL.
While people point to his very limited play against Cleveland as promising, I found that I didn't really like what I saw, including a nearly vertical running posture, and a lanky, drawn-out style that exposes him to too many different force angles. But there were pluses, including his vision and quick cutting ability.
After missing over 90% of critical practice time and game experience over the last two years, Ryan Torain is heading into a brand new offensive system, and is essentially a rookie all over again. Outside of working with Turner and Dennison last year, he has nothing going for him, and will need to bring everything he has to the table.
I can't imagine Denver cutting him before training camp, but any medical alerts about him should be weighted very seriously with regards to his future. I am hoping to see nothing less than "100%" and "Full Speed." It is very important that the RBs be ready to absorb McJedi's new offense starting with OTAs. Any holdup and the Torain Train may never make the station.
There is little to be added to the discussion on Hillis that BroncoBear didn't already cover in his fantastic piece, Peyton Hillis: The Hammer in 2009? 61% of MHR users felt that Peyton had proven what he needed to in his action as a starter, in order to be considered the primary back in the new offense. I will try to limit myself here to looking at the downside of Peyton as a the projected starter.
In Peyton's corner you have his toughness, the vote of confidence from his Pro Bowl center, his tremendous hands, heck, even his choice of end-zone celebration endears him to the fans. The dissenting opinions are few and far, and there is little traction for a truly spirited debate about Peyton's potential. But one idea which can stand on its own is how Peyton's virtues of toughness, fearlessness and power coupled with his particular bruising style of play put him in harm's way as often as they help the team, much like Jay's take no prisoner's mentality frequently reverses the field for the Broncos. Peyton is a player who draws hits like a magnet draws iron, and the result is a battering that only he has the ability to stand up to. This style of play led to fractured vertebrae in college, but again his toughness shines through, with the injury sidelining him only half the expected amount of time.
In the final analysis I have only two concerns regarding Hillis. The first is whether he will be available for a December playoff run, due to the pounding he would take as a starter, and the second, which is intimately tied to the first, is that I question whether he would be used to his maximum potential if he were required to be lined up in the backfield as the main back all the time.
As much as I enjoyed his two games of toting the rock from the RB position, the game that really stands out to me is the Miami game, where Hillis occupied the H-back role that garnered him so much acclaim at Arkansas. It took advantage of his skills such as his hands and quickness in ways that simply will never be realized as a 1st-and-10 RB. The match-ups that he can exploit in the one-on-one scenarios afforded by the H-back role simply don't exist at the level of the trenches. Can he run in the trenches? Absolutely. So can Cutler, and for a very healthy yards per attempt, too. But is he at his BEST in the trenches? I would say no. Hillis can certainly patch up the running back position, but only at the cost of the kinds of production that force teams to game-plan around him, when they fear what he could do as he roams around the offense, lining up as a RB in short yardage situations, flaring out as a FB to be the uncovered 3rd down reception, lining up as a TE to pressure the seam, and lining up wide as a WR where no one accounts for him and he magically appears uncovered in the end-zone.
Bottom line is that Hillis is the surest option at RB currently on the roster. But he would be stepping down in production and worth to occupy that role. It would be the equivalent of lining Dallas Clark up at RB. I'm sure he would bring some physicality to the position, but then he wouldn't be available to destroy defensive schemes for Peyton Manning as a H-back.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After the above group, the roster rounds out with RB Cory Boyd, FB Andrew Pinnock and FB/MLB Spencer Larsen.
As a FB, I don't know if Larsen catches onto the starters, but his versatility should catch the eye of McJedi. In a perfect world Larsen is in the running for ILB and we can forget this FB nonsense, but the fact is that he has experience at FB, and he struggled at MLB in very limited exposure. His Special Teams play guarantees a roster spot however, so he should be around through and after camp. Larsen was only adequate as a blocking FB however, and he has mentioned how uncomfortable he would be if he was ever asked to carry the rock. That may come to him with time, and as always, the hope is that his offensive skills can be left to the "trick plays" section of the playbook, and we all know what McJedi pulled out of his hat in that area while in NE.
Boyd is a project RB who failed a physical involving his knee when he was waived by TB last year. It is interesting that he survived the first wave of cuts, but as a late-season desperation signing one has to wonder how much longer he will hold on. He is currently sitting on an exceptionally valuable roster spot, even for the 72-man roster, so this will probably come down to Bobby Turner's evaluation of him.
Andrew Pinnock, the only true FB on the roster, may have his spot cemented from that fact alone, as he was never activated in 2008, despite Larsen having hip and groin injuries ahead of him. The potential is there, however, as Pinnock was never truly cut from SD. He was drafted to replace Lorenzo Neal under Schottenheimer, but LoNeal proved to be a durable commodity, and by the time he was let go, SD had moved away from that style of blocking FB, preferring the Hester style of, if I may be so bold, "wimpy" FB. Pinnock is a smart player, and has the speed and size to be a versatile FB. But if he were cut tomorrow, I don't suppose I would be terribly surprised.
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Here's who makes it
Hillis
Torain
Bell
Pittman
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
My four:
Hillis, Young, Hall, Torain.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 3:38 PM MST up reply actions
My three:
Hillis showed good hands, strong running, and the ability to play FB and TB. He’s also on a small salary.
Torain should be given one last chance, if he can’t stay healthy enough to make it to opening day he’s gone, but he has size and showed glimpses of ability.
Hall is my last, if just because you need some depth and he’s the best of what’s left.
I think we’ll draft a RB late first day/early second day.
speaking of Hillis' salary
I am hoping they restructure and pay the kid if he has a great year this year. The guy is working for peanuts. I don’t know how the nuances work, whether he should be restructured early or when he is down to one year on his contract or what, but few dollars could be spent so wisely, I think…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 7:46 PM MST up reply actions
Great post. btw, I just learned what rickrolled was....through other means.
Don’t YouTube COD 6. lol
My four:
Hillis
Torain(barring injury)
Young
(Draftee or FA)
btw, Larsen is not included in my list of RB/FB candidates. The dude is a LB…Shanny made him play FB…that’s all.
Is there such a thing as a Playstation 3 Anonymous? I can't seem to stop thinking about or playing COD 4 and COD 5. I hear this is quite normal for a teenager, but I haven't been a teenager since Bill Clinton was frolicking with interns.
My take...
I am going to say that Bell, Hall, Young, Pittman, Torain, Hillis and Pinnock all make it to training camp/preseason.
As for the 53 man opening day roster, I beleive:
Bell : Possible, depending on his OTA/Camp/Preseason
Hall: I don’t think he’ll make the cut.
Young: I don’t think he’ll make the cut.
Pittman: I think pitman might make it for FB/RB depth, and other packages.
Torain: I think he’ll make it. In fact he has the best possibility to be the starter out of the group. If he can stay healthy, however his injuries are of the freakish sort.
Hillis: H-Back/Backup Fullback/RB on certain packages… All around do it guy.
Pinnock: Starting fullback.
So that leaves on the 53 roster. Bell, Pittman, Torain, Hillis and Pinnock (with Bell being on the cusp)
And I also agree on Larsen. He will play ST, and possible LB/Backup LB…
by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Feb 13, 2009 4:20 PM MST reply actions
of course...
what do i know.
I thought AA would of made it as a change of pace (I thought he did damn good against Arizona’s starting Defense) and at least as a KR/PR specialist…
by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Feb 13, 2009 4:25 PM MST up reply actions
you're not alone
I didn’t think he was proven commodity, but I sure as hell thought that he was bound for some highlight reels.
I also think that your projection above looks like it could be pretty close, which just further guarnatees that it couldn’t be further from the truth….
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 7:49 PM MST up reply actions
Great Post Styg..
Here are my three…
Hillis
Hall
Torain (Short leash)
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
Excellent work styg
My three are Hillis, Torain and Pinnock.
It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08
Hillis=Cowbell. You can’t have too much. styg 01/29/09
You so old school...no love with the fruity change of pace runners huh? heheh
Is there such a thing as a Playstation 3 Anonymous? I can't seem to stop thinking about or playing COD 4 and COD 5. I hear this is quite normal for a teenager, but I haven't been a teenager since Bill Clinton was frolicking with interns.
100% agreed first...
And we will pick up either Ward or Darren Sproles.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
I have to agree
I think these three make the 53 plus a draftee or two I see us keeping 5 RB’s on the roster this season. These three are what I think Coach wants. He Cut AA so a change of pace will be brought in through the draft. As much as people are high on Sproles I dont think he is leaving SD.
" He goes against Champ everyday." -Jay Cutler
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Feb 13, 2009 6:25 PM MST up reply actions
power football all the way
I would expect nothing less from ...“In the Trenches!”
Free Agency should be exciting this year.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 7:51 PM MST up reply actions
Great Write-up
One thing I think you may be overlooking though. Under Shanny the Broncos were almost exclusively an I-formation running team where the FB is primarily a blocker and rarely carries the ball. NE however, uses a lot more varied sets including the pro-set and the wide-T. That creates room for many much more variety. Also NE spreads the ball among many more RBs. There is a distinct possibility that we may do the same. Also, I think Turner’s opinion of Bell may have changed. He used to get mad because Bell wouldn’t trust the ZB, but in the last few games it looked like Tatum had finally gotten it.
My picks:
Hillis – for all the obvious reasons.
Pittman – for short yardage toughness
Bell – because he finally gets it
a player we haven’t seen yet,
another player we haven’t seen
Pinnock because he looks like a good FB when that’s what we want.
I do like Bell
Doesn’t seem brighter than a box of hammers sometimes, but you’re right — he got it this year, and made the most of his opportunity.
Win or lose, do it fairly. -- Knute Rockne
by broncosmontana on Feb 13, 2009 6:07 PM MST up reply actions
I know what you mean about Bell
I just can’t get over his “get touched-fall down” routine.
I definitely am anticipating varied and unfamiliar uses of the RB under McJedi. I wish I had paid more attention to the NE running game over the years… all I recall is their passing game. I need to find some games from the last few years….
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 7:55 PM MST up reply actions
Question?
Does anyone know of a good site to look up Cap Space numbers?
by gnarlybroncodude on Feb 13, 2009 5:21 PM MST reply actions
Gnarly...here is what I use...
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/default.aspx
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
If I could only pick 4
Hillis – lead pipe lock
Pittman – hard nosed savvy vet
Torian – lives up to his hype
Pinnock – FB
Bell could sign with Houston, now that Ahman is gone.
Win or lose, do it fairly. -- Knute Rockne
Kubs would pick up Young in a heartbeat....
Is there such a thing as a Playstation 3 Anonymous? I can't seem to stop thinking about or playing COD 4 and COD 5. I hear this is quite normal for a teenager, but I haven't been a teenager since Bill Clinton was frolicking with interns.
Houston
Where old Bronco RBs go to die… er, live again,… and stay off IR…
Win or lose, do it fairly. -- Knute Rockne
by broncosmontana on Feb 14, 2009 8:02 AM MST up reply actions
Good Analysis
Hillis – Agree that his pass catching makes him most valuable as H-back. Can’t wait to see how McDaniels utilizes this guy
Bell – Starting showing some ability as he got into football shape
Pinnock – If Marty picked him to replace L Neal, that’s good enough for me.
Derrick Ward – Looking for a key FA pickup as main rock runner
I probably am not the best source for Pinnock info
I was going from memory on the replace LoNeal bit. I vaguely recall Pinnock being rated the #2 or #3 FB in 2003, and I think he got taken in the 7th by SD. As a funfact, Hillis was rated #2 as well, and he went at #7: must mean great FBs are cheap. But with Hillis other skills, how Hillis slipped through the cracks is beyond me.
Maybe all that Nutt business down in Arkansas caused more problems for Hillis than it looked like.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 8:00 PM MST up reply actions
wow...maybe none of them
the Broncos are making a fresh start..just ask the goodmans and shannahan…only people who seem to be team players in the new way of doing things are going to stay…like the x-man (he is new anyway) and a few of the coaches (dennison and turner)
as for the players…they better be stars who want to be in denver and want to work in the new system…and they had better have shown that they can produce
so…of the running backs…who does that leave…well…hillis and pittman…the rest are just average…and maybe backups…so…maybe the rest of them go and the broncos bring in all new backs from free agency who may all just be backups like these guys are…but have good character and are not injury prone and willing to work hard
its not like they are a bunch of heisman trophy winners
so true
We have been talking about some of these guys for two years now, and yet in the end they may just be average RBs who will be lucky to hang on as STers and backups.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2009 8:02 PM MST up reply actions
Nice writeup styg
The way things are going, it is hard to tell who the new staff will keep. I chose four (at the most) will stay, however I think Hillis (obvious) and Pittman will be here for sure. As far as the others you never know. I don’t think Young will last too much longer due to injuries. Too bad he can’t stay healthy because he is a change of pace we could use every now and then. I still think we will draft a solid RB, hopefully he won’t have any past injuries.
I would love to see Sproles go and us pick him up.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9
Great analysis, Styg.
My four: Hillis, Torain, Bell and Pinnock.
However, I think that a RB and a FB will be drafted so one of these may be cut. Maybe the loser at FB will go.
One Name
I think you missed is Steve Baylark wasn’t He a late signing Dec. 24, I really don’t know much about Him but He look’s good on paper.
My choices are :
Ryan Torain, break out year
Tatum Bell, Change of pace
Cory Boyd, relief
and I’m a little shocked at the release of PJ Pope He showed promise.
At H back Hillis
at FB/ST Andrew Pinnock, I would’nt mind another FA like Heath Evans.
and I really want to see what Steve Baylark has.
Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!
I believe Baylark isn't officially on the current roster
I don’t know if Denver got him to a new contract or not, but his practice squad contract ran out on Jan 14th. I haven’t seen anywhere where he resigned, but I don’t know how Future’s reserve contracts work… maybe they expire for the offseason and and can be called back up at OTAs or something….
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2009 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
Excellent write up Styg
I think Hillis is a keeper, and I’d like to see Pittman.
Beyond that, I think we need a fast RB (or at least a balanced one), and perhaps a fourth.
The injuries this last season go to the heart of my argument that the “RB by committee” approach is the way to go for most teams in the present and future. While I advocate Hillis as the primary RB in the committee, I don’t want him overused either.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
I know Woody Paige is a bit of a ..... well, you get the point. Here is what he had to say about Hillis being the main ball carrier
This is from his mailbag
Hey, Woody. I was wondering what your thoughts are on our RB situation for next year? Personally I really have taken a liking to Peyton Hillis as an every-down back.
— Brett, New York
No. Hillis will be a nice backup, Brett. If the Broncos play him every down, two things will happen. They won’t have a dynamic offense, and he will get hurt often.
The Broncos need Terrell Davis. He’s not coming back, and there’s no one on the roster to duplicate his heroics. And Clinton Portis has left the building a long time ago. They must draft another good (great) running back or try again to get one of the very best (L.T.?). Jay Cutler needs a great running back to help him. Without a running game (remember the two Super Bowl victories), the Broncos, even with Cutler and Marshall, will be a nice little team that might get to the playoffs.
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
Indeed Boydy,
Woody’s an idiot. However, I actually agree with him here to a certain extent. I love Hillis, and I disagree with Woody when he says that he should play a backup role, or that the Broncos wouldn’t have a dynamic offense with him as a starter. In fact, I think Hillis is capable of one or two 1,500 seasons as a tailback, which would be huge. However, I agree with Styg that if he were to carry the load, he would take a pounding and that’s all we would get— one or two big years (Mike Anderson, anyone?).
Where I wholeheartedly agree with Woody is when he says we need a dominate, every-down balanced back ala TD and Portis. We must go after a top-tier FA like Ward or draft Knowshon. An offense featuring Ward or Knowshon would be more dynamic than a Hillis offense. Not to say a Hillis-led offense wouldn’t be dynamic like Woody said, but this offense would be more dynamic, which brings me to Hillis’ role.
I could see Hillis starting alongside Ward or Knowshon as a combo FB – HB, ala the 2008 Miami game. In this role, he gets 15-20 touches a game and a career filled with 1,500 all-purpose-yard seasons. Remember, he was very dynamic in college in that role, and could do it in the NFL if the situation was right. This guy is 10x more talented than Mike Anderson, and we need to utilize him accordingly.
Not to get too carried away here, but perhaps the Lakers, or another team that didn’t have Kareem, would have been content leaving Magic Johnson at center after his rookie-year performance in the 1980 NBA Finals. They may have been temped to fill a much-needed hole in the middle and him on the post to take a beating, sacrificing a large part of his skill-set during his early years. As it turns out, the Lakers put him in a positoin to use all his skills and he’s one of the greatest of all time.
If Hillis is put in the right spot, I don’t think he’ll go down as one of the all time greats to play the game, but he may have a career that makes him an all-time fan favorite, and earn him a spot in the Ring of Fame.
"Choose the sword, and you will join me. Choose the ball and you join your mother, in death. You don’t understand my words, but you must choose. So… come boy, choose life or death."
by ButteBronco on Feb 14, 2009 11:52 AM MST up reply actions
Nicely said Butte
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
The part about the ring of fame
you read my mind butte. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why settle for a couple of good rushing years, while the team rebuilds when he could be cementing his legacy in fans hearts like Rod Smith?
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2009 7:57 PM MST up reply actions
Good post BB...
But heres the thing. The days of the every down back are gone…..or are disappearing VERY quickly.
Even AP has Chester in there as well.
Jedi McD has a complimentary back mentality, and intead of having a 1-2 punch, we will have a 1a-1b punch.
It fits in totally with the philosophy that Jedi is bringing: attacking on both sides of the ball, adaptability and multi skilled p[layers so that Denver will adjust their schemes to who they are playing, and wont be resigned to being a pigeon holed team eg 4-3 defense and running team.
This is why we WONT be taking a power back in the draft, or even a high pick.
We have a power back in Hillis, and have a back up for him in Torain and Pittman. We will be looking for a home run hitter like Sproles or Ward, who will be backed up by Tatum Bell.
This is how Jedi rolls, and this is how his run game will be.
Some weeks we will see Hillis be a bell cow, other weeks we will see a focus on screens and the run game, others we will see some games focused on a runner who can get the ball to the outside.
This is how Jedi is building this team.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Thanks dude,
I shouldn’t have said “every-down back” because, as you say, those days are all but history. I agree with that. However, most systems seem to have a primary back, a guy that gets 60 – 80% of the carries when healthy. That’s who I would like to see us acquire via FA or draft. Now, I admittedly don’t know much about McJedi, but even if schemes and players will change greatly each week, the team would be better off having a great all purpose back.
I’m just scared that if we go into the season with a pack of guys that do only certain things well, we open ourselves up for failure due to finite practice reps. I believe a big part of Bates/Shanny giving up on the running game in the second half of games last year was having the guy that took 80% of the reps in practice that week go down to injury. Having a primary back mitigates this risk.
"Choose the sword, and you will join me. Choose the ball and you join your mother, in death. You don’t understand my words, but you must choose. So… come boy, choose life or death."
Makes sense.....
Hillis, in my opinion, can do it all, and we just need to compliment him with a slasher and make sure we have back ups for those players.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Now we KNOW the Broncos....
won’t be drafting a feature running back. If Woody says it, it’s usually wrong.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Feb 14, 2009 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
Woody is half right though...
If we play him every down he will get injured and our offense will suffer because of that. That’s the lack of dynamic he was talking about…once he goes down we’re screwed. I think he just minced his words there…I don’t like Woody very much but he is more knowledgeable than most beat writers. If that can be called a compliment. ;-)
Is there such a thing as a Playstation 3 Anonymous? I can't seem to stop thinking about or playing COD 4 and COD 5. I hear this is quite normal for a teenager, but I haven't been a teenager since Bill Clinton was frolicking with interns.
Every down backs
So few of these still exist, and that’s as it should be. There are several reason for that, and the issue of injury is a huge one. Look at Minnesota – they played APO until the downs got him injured and he only averaged 2.7 ypc in the last 4 games. There is also the trend to specialization – no back has all the abilities required in the modern pro game.
No matter who we settle on, including the Moreno option, he won’t be an every down back. If he’s used that way, his career will be a lot shorter and our offense less versatile.
Hillis in '09
Woody Paige comment
It’s funny how Woody uses injury concerns as a reason Hillis wouldn’t be a good starting RB for us and then he suggests we get LT to be our primary RB. WTF?
the dynamic of keeping Pittman
I really like Pittman, and I wanted to describe better the situation under which I see him sticking around (I don’t think I was very clear up above):
I think he only has value as the #3 backup RB/FB. To me this means that we have two bruisers ahead of him (lets say Torain and Hillis) and two speed backs ahead of him (lets say Bell and Young for now). You get the versatility on 3rd downs, the ability to line up in many places, and if the season drew ona nd RB injuries were sidelining guys here and there (hopefully not to the extent of last year) then he would be a great starting option down the stretch for only a game or so, maybe even for a playoff run.
For the #3 scenario to play out, Denver needs to keep two balanced backs on the roster that are better than pittman. I don’t think Torain will be that guy, but Hillis is an obvious option. Regardless of who it is, though, there needs to be two of them.
Lets say that Torain gets hurt or doesn’t get cleared medically to play, or that McJedi is dead set on Hillis as FB/HB. You are down to one or fewer balanced backs that are obviously better than Pittman (hillis is the only obvious one really). In this situation Denver needs a FA or drafted back who is a balanced runner of higher quality (re. at least equal talent and younger and durable with more miles left). They may even need both a FA and drafted balance back.
If Denver doesn’t get a proven FA balance back, and then they don’t get an obvious talent in the draft, and either Torain or Hillis is not in a position to start ahead of Pittman, in other words, if Pittman looks to end up being the #2 back, I think that McJedi and co. will let Pittman go to free agency. Regardless of how cheap he is, he isn’t likely to be durable enough to occupy part of the tandem of a committee approach, in my eyes. He should back up a committee and fill in on a committee, but he shouldn’t be projected as a vital part of a committee. The likely starting group in that instance would be Hillis or Torain (remember, one of them isn’t available at RB for some reason), Boyd or some other unproven balance back, and then some set of two changeup backs out of Bell, Hall, Young. With both Bell and Hall entering free agency, it is possible that neither will be around but I would lean towards Young staying because he is under contract, and Hall being retained over Bell because he has a cleaner character history, is a tougher runner, and because he is an ERFA as opposed to Tatum’s regular FA status.
To guarantee keeping Pittman I think we need to either sign a top back in Free agency, or plan on a top back in the draft.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2009 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
I sort of agree...
I like Pittman, but I don’t think he brings enough to the table to justify the roster spot if other options are available. On the other hand, if we can’t get the RBs we need, for whatever reason, then he becomes a cheap short yardage option and provides depth. I think the Broncos will wait and see what happens in the draft and free agency before they make a decision on Pittman.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Feb 14, 2009 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
then the question becomes
wht kind of deal do they throw at him in free agency. Hopefully the interest isn’t out there for him, but they will need to do him first, probably before they look prove FA commodities. If they wait to sign him until the end of free agency, or even until after the draft, it is possible some other team will nab him with another one year deal…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2009 8:21 PM MST up reply actions
I agree on both accounts
They need to do exactly what you described Styg. We do need to bring in a solid RB to round things out and be the #1 or #2 with Hillis. Pittman has a ton of value as depth in that situation.
I think he should be retained though. He has years left if he wants that kind of role and this is a good place for him.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
That's what I think, too (I think)
Hillis should be the starter and Pittman insurance, not backup, and we should have a changeup runner and insurance for him, too. That way, if either of the primary backs gets hurt we can plug in the same kind of back and not have to change the offense. We could even have three primary backs with maybe two insurance runners. The insurance guys won’t get many carries and they need not be activated every game. They’re just there if (when?) one of the primaries goes down. Call it the stash extra running backs system.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Agree
I haven’t watched enough NE football to know this – if we use a FB about how we did this year, mightn’t Pittman work fairly well? Low carries, a few touches, uses his weight? Does he have any hands for the FB swing pass? Thanks
Hillis in '09
He does have hands
nothing stunning, but enough to not be considered a liablitlity. I am getting anxious to know just what the running element of McJedi’s scheme is… Oh, to be a fly on the wall at dove valley right now…
I just realized that it is difficult to think of “Dove Valley” without thinking of Shanny. They were hand in hand since Dove Valley’s inception…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2009 8:24 PM MST up reply actions
Yes he has hands
One of Pittman’s biggest strong points throughout his career has been his versatility. He can catch well from the backfield. It hasn’t been his trademark, but he’s not one that drops the balls on a swing pass in the flat or a screen.
Pittman has done FB a number of times. He is a great all-around football player.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
Pittman...
is a good receiver and solid blocker in passing situations. Not as good as a lead blocker in running situations. In the I-formation he wouldn’t cut is as a FB. In a Pro-set or Spread-T his versatility becomes more valuable.
Anyone remember the 70s and 80s when FBs actually ran the football?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Feb 15, 2009 2:14 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks styg
Interesting thoughts, then –
If we went with your idea of Hillis at H back, and moved Pittman to back up RB and FB, we would still have a moster hole at RB. I know your not-secret desire of Moreno, but other than that option, what do you see at RB for us? We can hope for Torain (and in my heart, I do) but not for the whole season, realistically… Any thoughts?
Hillis in '09
The answer
I really think we need to pick up Ward in Free Agency. He would be great in our system and is a proven RB.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
This was my thought
If the beast can be laid to rest in free agency, it really opens up options everywhere else. Ward is a good call, but there is risk there. Running in tandem should alleviate much of the risk making me think that he should be the primary FA target. There are a number of one cut runners in FA, and guys who have experience with one cut, even if they aren’t ideally suited to it, but they just seem so risky. My thought on Ward’s risk is that he is a cleanup guy, taking over after not one, but TWO bruisers (jacobs and Bradshaw) have softened defenses. He also isn’t the brightest guy, so McJedi’s playbook might be a bit too much for him. These risks coupled with his age (but lack of miles) probably put him in the Travis Henry payscale area, or in other words, more expensive than a first round RB, with fewer years left in the tank.
What ward does have is a powerful leg churn, a powerful cut-back ability, middling hands, and a focus on not losing the football (he had fumble problems early in his career). He had a broken leg a year ago, but as the third man in a rotation he looked 100% recovered from that.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 15, 2009 9:12 AM MST up reply actions
This is just for fun
since everyone knows how I feel about Knowshon…
I found this at New Era Scouting. It was a list of player comparisons, where they list a prospect and forecast a bes/worst case scenario for him, in terms of they who have gone before. Here’s Knowshon:
17. Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia
Best: LaDainian Tomlinson, Chargers
Worst: Derrick Ward, Giants
:)
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 15, 2009 4:24 PM MST up reply actions
Not that it's any surprise, but
as always, a notably well-written and insightful story, Styg. I’d have to say that I’m in your boat on every running back – let’s move away from relying upon oft-injured players such as Hall, Young, Torain and Bell. I don’t mean that they should all be cut – I’d keep Hillis, maybe Pinnock and 2 out of Young/Torain/Pittman with at least 2 new additions. I love the idea of Hillis being used in an H-back role. His talents are many, as you stressed and like you, I feel that a full season would cause him to break down or be much less effective. When Denver drafted Hillis, the number one trait we were most excited by was his pass-catching ability. I think he could be so valuable in that role, in finding open spaces underneath and pounding out his yardage against the back-7 rather than the front-7. Yes, something akin to Dallas Clark. Sounds to me like a coverage nightmare – Marshall, Royal and Scheffler drawing lots of attention and what to do with Hillis?
I do think Derrick Ward is an excellent runner, but I fear he may be quite costly in terms of guaranteed money – something that I doubt Bowlen is awash in at this point. Coupled with the likeliness of large expenditures on the defensive side, I just can’t imagine giving Ward $15+ million (Turner got $15 mill and was much less a proven commodity at this time last year). In a perfect world and say, the 2005 economy, yes Ward would be a great pickup but today I see him as a luxury item Denver cannot afford. Perhaps I’m looking at it backwards, and football free agency will follow that of baseball’s this winter and contracts will not be thrown around quite as liberally. But in Ward’s case, I doubt it. It should be duly noted that Ward racked up 1,409 yards of offense in 2008 – he is no secret and that number makes Michael Turner’s 2007 production paler than pale (332 YFS).
Some funny things have happened in the last couple years – I think many have forgotten how frail Tatum Bell was in his first stay here, and others have gone from crowning Selvin “The Man” last spring/summer to anxiously awaiting his dismissal this winter. I think the latter more prevalent than the former, but it’s interesting to see how such strong perceptions can change so quickly. Selvin Young is not a bad running back, he’s actually pretty good. I certainly don’t want to see him at the starting halfback position, but I don’t think we’ve reached the point where he should be kicked to the curb. Tatum could never stay healthy during his first stint, and Shanny’s preference to limit him to 10 or 15 touches per game was a wise one.
Pittman was excellent while starting – productive games versus Jacksonville and Tampa Bay. In fact, folks may already have forgotten that Pittman salted away the Tampa game almost exclusively with his will and toughness. He is a versatile, valuable player. In the comments above, I actually see Pittman’s receiving skills not getting their just due. Pittman is an EXCEPTIONAL pass-catcher. He was a major factor in Arizona for two seasons, and he racked up 73 catches in ’00 and 42 in ’01. In Tampa he amassed 59 receptions in ’02, 75 in ’03 and followed up with the next four seasons of 41, 36, 47 and 26 catches as his role diminished and before coming to Denver. These are not small numbers, and he has 425 receptions over his career. Would he catch 50 or 60 balls in ’09? I doubt it, but he certainly has pass-catching skills. He was quite the dual weapon for Gruden and Company.
I too, was surprised that Boyd outlasted AA and Pope. But I trust Bobby Turner and his evaluative skills. I haven’t seen too many Denver castoffs toting the rock for big yards on other squads. I don’t consider Droughns and Portis castoffs, as they were involved in major trades…
Interesting stats
Pittman’s pass catching in TB. I’ll defer the hands analysis to you, since I went purely on limited reps in Denver this year. Here is a wierd observation on his catching style: did anyone else notice that when catching in the backfield he didn’t seem like he was on balance? This could easily be an error on Cutler’s part, such as leading Pittman too much or something. Just something I think I remember.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 15, 2009 9:20 AM MST up reply actions
This is who I would like to see
Ryan Torain
Chris Wells Draft
Tatum Bell
Cory Boyd
Peyton Hillis HB/FB
Heath Evans FA’s
Andrew Pinnock
I love Michael Pittman but I cant help but think about Him going into His 12th yr after a neck injury.
Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

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