Beyond the Pale?
by ButteBronco on Mar 1, 2009 1:50 PM MST
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With so many rumors floating around, it's very hard to tell exactly what happened at this point. Let's assume the worst-- it was us who floated the deal to NE-- "find a third team with a quality pick and Cutler's in play". Even if this did happen, is it really beyond the pale???
There is no doubt Jay is very talented, but so was Jeff George. I really hate to judge people, so I'll stop short of saying Jay's a bad person or anything like that. In fact, I can't imagine being in his shoes at his age. However (here's where I turn into a hypocrite), the term "franchise QB" has been thrown around a lot here and his public persona just doesn't fit with the likes of Brady, Manning, McNabb, Montana, Young, etc. Maybe it fits closer to a young John Elway, but I won't go there.
The only thing really separating Jay from the throngs of young athletes that have rarely heard the word no (see his QB draft mates: VY & ML) is a truck load of raw talent. However, I worry about him having a TO-style flip out on the sideline, or continuing his habit of saying team-damaging things publicly. If he becomes a real problem in that respect, we will not receive value for him in a trade and will likely let him go in FA. Maybe McDanials was thinking along these lines when (if) he floated the offer.
I know most of the MHR faithful, including our fearless leader, do not think highly of Mr. Cassesl. The first thing I heard on MHR radio last night was that Cassel didn't win any big games. I'm sorry, but someone please fill me in on the big game Cutler has on his resume? In addition, their 2008 statistics were not that much different. In fact, when you consider that Jay had a year and a half starting experience under his belt and went into the year knowing he was the guy, Matt's numbers stack up rather nicely.
|
|
Comp |
Att |
Pct |
Yds |
Avg |
TD |
Int |
Sck |
FUM |
Lost |
Wins |
|
Jay |
384 |
616 |
62.3 |
4,526 |
7.3 |
25 |
18 |
11 |
5 |
2 |
8 |
|
Matt |
327 |
516 |
63.4 |
3,693 |
7.2 |
21 |
11 |
47 |
7 |
4 |
11 |
Finally, I'm willing to give professionals in this business the benefit of the doubt. As much as I appreciate the great analysis-- technical and philosophical-- on this site, we all have day jobs. Josh McDanials spent the better part of the last three years working with Cassel, and he has spent more time than any of us reviewing tape and dealing with Jay Cutler. If he felt our club would be better with Cassel, then I wouldn't argue with him. He's also in decent company, as Mr. Pioli was obviously high on Matt, and he has been praised on this site and virtually everywhere else for the last five years.
I guess my point here is, this deal wouldn't have been the end of the world (even the one reported where we would have dropped to 19 and picked up a third rounder). It certainly shouldn't cause a credibility crisis with McDanials, change potential FA's minds, cause anyone to question his or her fandom, or require the leader of our team to go public and threaten mutiny (kind of).
At this point, it does no good to argue Matt vs. Jay (unless we're talking smack with the Arrowhead Pride folk). Our club moves forward with Jay, and although I levied some harsh criticisms at him above, I'm in his corner. Jay and Josh need to hug it out and be the professionals that all of us here at MHR expect them to be. Josh must be honest with Jay-- if he did float the trade, he must own up to it. Jay needs to let this one roll of his back and go out and win a bunch of ballgames this year. The new coach and front office staff have given Jay a much improved supporting cast three days into the new year that will help him get it done.
GO BRONCOS!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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i just can't agree with you on this
Cassel does not have nearly enough potential. Cutler is a bit more rough around the edges, but is more exciting and one day will be MUCH better.
"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith
Is any player bigger than the program...
Do you think Jedi McD and Xanders are sitting back, after watching Jay’s “professional and totally calm” reaction and are thinking “Maybe we should have pulled the trigger on the trade?”
The more this goes on, the more I think we are better without Cutler….and his drama….no matter how talented.
Remember, the new regime is looking for professional, hard working team oreintated players who see thier worth as part of the team….not bigger than the team.
I cant honestly say that Cutler fits this profile, and if he cant be that guy, than he will be a cancer and we maybe better without him.
I love the guys upside, but I worry about his overall decision making…both on and off the field.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
I agree completely boydy
The QB is the leader on the field, and the leader should reflect the best qualities you want to see in your team. Jay gets it together or he’s gone, if not this year then next or the year after.
"You can't make the club if you're in the tub." -- Rod Smith
by broncosmontana on Mar 1, 2009 2:23 PM MST up reply actions
+1
Well said Boydy. I love me some Cutler, but he isn’t bigger than the Broncos at all and we need a mature leader going forward.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
This is a great example of why you stats don't mean everything in Sports.
It’s like trying to figure out who is a better driver by racing a Ferrari and a Pinto.
Cassel was in a role where he needed to ‘manage the game’ and not f’ it up.
Cutler was often asked to win the game himself.
Judgment of any system, or a priori relationship or phenomenon exists in an irrational, or metaphysical, or at least epistemological contradiction to an abstract empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
clarification:
Since I’m sure a couple of folks will jump on the ‘win by himself comment’, I’m referring to all the games last season where the Broncos totally abandoned the run and Cutler had to constantly compensate for the worst Broncos defense in history (imo).
I don’t think there is any ground for a reasonable comparison of the two QBs to be made.
Judgment of any system, or a priori relationship or phenomenon exists in an irrational, or metaphysical, or at least epistemological contradiction to an abstract empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
I don't really disagree with you here...
All I was saying is that this scenario is not incoceivable. Our new coach is very familiar with Cassel. He knows he could win games with him, you know? I love Jay’s upside and there is no question he has the talent to be an MVP in this league, but a QB has to keep his cooth.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
+1000
"You can't make the club if you're in the tub." -- Rod Smith
by broncosmontana on Mar 1, 2009 2:21 PM MST up reply actions
cassell is nothing jay cutler will ever be PERIOD!!!!!
sorry to break it to you chiefs but hes not even close…..
Cutler should have had 40tds last year not 25
Mile High Salute
47 sacks for Cassel?
Behind the Patriots line?
Oh man…he is going to get eaten alive in KC. I almost feel bad for him (almost).
Judgment of any system, or a priori relationship or phenomenon exists in an irrational, or metaphysical, or at least epistemological contradiction to an abstract empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
God I about snorted coffee out my nose when I saw that
How they ended up with that record is a minor miracle, whatever their playoff scenario turned out to be.
"You can't make the club if you're in the tub." -- Rod Smith
by broncosmontana on Mar 1, 2009 2:20 PM MST up reply actions
The reason Thigpen was starting by the end of the year...
Is he was the only KC QB that was mobile enough to not get injured by getting clobberknockered regularly.
(why is Chopin’s ‘funeral march’ playing in my head? weird).
Judgment of any system, or a priori relationship or phenomenon exists in an irrational, or metaphysical, or at least epistemological contradiction to an abstract empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
How
could Denver go from the 12th pick to 19th and get a lesser QB? Am I missing something here cuz KC got a boatload for a DE, for real? A DE not a franchise once in a lifetime athlete like Jay. We and Jay are being hoodwinked to kill his value so someone can steal him willingly. Call me stupid I just ain’t buying!
The only difference between insanity and genius is perception.
Slowly but surely
the great people here at MHR are working to put out this fire that the media is fanning with all their pitiful strength.
Great post Butte, and this should rule out any significant “Jay vs. Matt” debates as non-issue.
Bottom line is that this frenzy is opening wounds for Broncosfans that weren’t quite healed, whether it was Cutler saying he had a better arm than Elway, Shanny being fired, McDaniels being hired (Instead of, say, the Chin), Xander being a number guy and not the experienced personnell guy that Goodman was, etc. etc. etc. Hell, some of this angst might go all the way back to Plummer.
I hope this site continues to debate rationally and civilly, because sorting out the trade rumor (which is a dead issue, in my opinion) is only one step. From the sound and fury in a lot of the debates, we as Broncos fans still have a lot of unanswered questions about the type of guy our QB is, our coach and GM are, and even what kind of owner we are talking about.
Posts like this are the first firm steps onto solid ground and away from the attention-whoring media speculation that fuels and drives these sorts of frenzies.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 1, 2009 2:24 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Thank you sir.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
Amen stygmon
None of will really know anything until we hit the field for our first regular season game. And then its one victory at a time. The MSM speculation sells beer and motor oil. That’s about all its worth in the end.
"You can't make the club if you're in the tub." -- Rod Smith
by broncosmontana on Mar 1, 2009 2:29 PM MST up reply actions
Styg, you are a voice of reason.
It would do us all a lot of good for you to do a nice front-pager putting this whole issue to bed. We’ve had enough bickering amongst ourselves. There is a division championship to be had! Huzzah!
I'm the Hiphopopotamous, flows that glow like phosphorous. I'm poppin' off the top of this esophagus, rockin' this metropolis. I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal, where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve tell you that, perchance? Steve...
Great perspective, Styg...
"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason." ---a former mastermind head coach....
plus'em
"I want this team to be tough, smart and prepared to play well under pressure...Everybody here in this organization is going to be held accountable to do their job — their piece of the puzzle to make this team a competitor for a championship every season." J-Mac
by Jay Fin Anderson on Mar 1, 2009 3:59 PM MST up reply actions
Lets compare
Cassel 2008- 3600 yds, 21 TDs, 11 INTs
D. Anderson 2007- 3700yds, 28 TDs, 18 INTs (On half the team Cassel had)
Shouldn’t we be pursuing Derek? No!! because hindsight says that wasn’t an accurate depiction of the QB.
If McD is the offensive genius he is purported to be, he should be drooling at the chance to get his claws into Cutler who is clearly the more talented QB.
I for one am thrilled that Cassel is going to KC. I dont see him as much of a threat. Competent, but not threatening.
I agree with your post 100%, Butte
Couldn’t have said it better myself, and I don’t consider myself a Jay basher in the least. I think the jury’s still out on him, and while McD surely could have handled the situation better, I don’t think his was a grave offense—or wouldn’t be if Jay had handled it with a little more discretion.
"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason." ---a former mastermind head coach....
Rec'd
I’m glad we’re keeping Jay and not getting Matt (I don’t think he’s as good of a QB as he showed last year with all that talent around him, however he is decent). Anyone thinks Matt would win 8 games on the Broncos last year? Yeah me neither, but here’s a big difference – next year’s team will be significantly different than last year’s team. If the team (including Bowlen, McDaniels and Xanders) thought they could win with another QB while adding other players/picks by trading Jay – I would support it. I’m not a Cutler fan, I’m a Broncos fan. The Broncos winning is more important to me than any one player.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
Butte, nice post
The issue for me friend isn’t the weather Cutler was dangled or not, for me, it is the fact that everyone in the world knows about it.
This will no do. The delicateness of working together for a common goal can not be undermined by mistrust. Know the question will bother Jay, “am I really wanted here”. That is truely unfortunate and I wish it never happened but it did.
My sense is that Cutler will relax. McDaniels will have his story airtight, he will stick to it repeatedly and Bowlen and Xanders will be there to ensure they have buried the hatchet.
We move on toward the draft where Cutler receives a nice “I’M Sorry” gift in the form of Knowshon Moreno!!!
Right back on the Kool Aid baby
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
"But I’d trust more of Bobby Turner. Remember – he had to keep his job. His boss made the final decisions, and he knew it. And he can get performance out of a yugo, but that’s no reason not to by a nicer car." ... Broncobear 02/24/2009
Oh, Steve O'
Still pushing Moreno! Just laughing, I appreciate your steadfastness (and don’t necessarily disagree with you) but I like to see you do this with all the bad juju going around.
You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra
Just trying to keep it light!!:)
"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!
"But I’d trust more of Bobby Turner. Remember – he had to keep his job. His boss made the final decisions, and he knew it. And he can get performance out of a yugo, but that’s no reason not to by a nicer car." ... Broncobear 02/24/2009
Just trying to keep it light!!:)
Good on you. But I still prefer Greene over Moreno.
You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra
Could we PLEASE stop talking about this? The more I hear, the more Im starting to dislike Cutler. The AFC West bloggers are mutilating Cutler and Broncos.
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
"Could we PLEASE stop talking about this? "
Okay, you first. You’ve been as vocal as anyone (and as negative).
You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra
What's the old saw...
If it doesn’t kill you it makes you stronger??
MHR was born from one guy’s displeasure at seeing Bronconation torn apart by the “Cutler-Plummer debate.” I don’t doubt that long term, maybe not in the next 24 hours, but definitely over the long haul we will have faced some of our questions about Jay and Pat and McXanders and come out better informed and more confident in our opinions of them.
And for Jay and McD, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them work hard to put all of this behind them and forge a bond that is solid. they both have work to do for that to happen, but in the coming weeks, that will be what I am watching for, not ‘proof’ that the wedge is being driven ever deeper, which is what you are bound to hear coming from the MSM. I’ll bet that when Jay is gearing up for his first playoff game after this season, these two will chuckle to themselves about how rough of a beginning it started out as, and how much work it is to always be the best person you can be…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 1, 2009 4:14 PM MST up reply actions
Don't think so...
I see a football team that right now is fractured in so many ways. The Shanny guys and the new McDaniels guys, the offense and the defense, the Cutler guys and …. you get the point. But who is that evil monk man lurking in the background? You know, the guy who recently stated on camera how wrong it was that Shanny was not coaching anymore (an indirect shot at McDaniels who apparently spurrned the monk man by leaving to be a head coach). Oh and did I mention that this monk man preferred to deprive his team of the 12th pick and accepted the 34th pick instead in order to trade Cassel to our division rival just to keep him out of Denver? Was he that afraid of Cassel teaming up with McDaniels for a non-division team? Personally, I don’t like the proposed trade one bit, but absent this irrational behavior we would at least have a new young QB that is well versed in the new system, the 19th pick and an extra third rounder – and a real opportunity to move forward. This outcome gave a huge boost to KC while driving a divisive wedge through the Broncos. Don’t kid yourself that that will just blow over. Sure, be professional, but people are people and there is a big difference between playing for a team that wants you and one that you know just doesn’t have a better option at the moment. We now have a divided mess.
Except that
McDaniels and Jay are cut from the same cloth. I definitely don’t think any of this will ‘blow over,’ in that, if left to its own momentum, this wagon will go straight off the cliff. These guys have their work cut out for them.
But I don’t think there is anything inherent in the current situation that makes it unfixable. In fact, I think that given the nature of these two guys, it is emminently fixable. These guys are both hardcore competitors, and they are both out to prove themselves and get some wins. Once Cutler and McDaniels actually start working together, and see how effective they can be at accomplishing their goals, I think they will find that it is more work not to bury the hatchet, than to learn to trust each other, or hold the other’s opinion in high esteem.
There is no inherent quality of this situation that says that it has to work out either way, but I think what we know of Jay, and what we are learning of McDaniels indicates that longterm, they will be able to do the right thing.
As to the rest of the division having a boost over us, you know the KC and oakland and SD rosters and struggles as well as I do. They are going to need all the boost they can get…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 1, 2009 4:48 PM MST up reply actions
Even comparing Cassel and Cutler is a disgrace.
I think Cassel was a project that the Pats turned into gold, albeit fool’s gold for the Chiefs. Marginal players can perform well in systems that are already functional and confident. Then you trade them for gold.
Cutler is a player you can build around, and makes everyone around him better. Receivers don’t have to get as open, defenses have to respect speed and Cutlers arm, defenses can’t bring the 8th man into the box without exposing themselves.
Cassell fit the Pat’s system last year, but I believe it was the excellent receivers, solid defense, and quality scheme that made him successful. We’ll see if he has that type of success in KC. I doubt he will. Hopefully this sets the Chiefs back 2-3 years while they continue to search for their QB answer.
also, Styg I hope you’re right and nothing is inherently not solvable. I think the Broncos are on the edge of going over a cliff, but hope that calmer heads and Ego’s can prevail.
Hope you're right Styx
Nice post. It adds something to the KC rivalry and it sure would be sweet to beat NE in the playoffs. Maybe Belicek unintentionally did us a big favor by nixing that deal. But I agree, stay positive.
Friction
Both the NYGiants (tom Coughlin), and Pittsburgh (Mike Tomlin) had problems with vet’s not liking the new coaches, anybody remember who one the last two SB’s
good point.
To love the Broncos is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy, one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness.
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