In regards to Pat Bowlen's decision-making
by creamy on Mar 10, 2009 9:53 AM MDT
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PrintI have long condsidered Bowlen to be a top-notch NFL owner. Apart from the occasional misfire (*cough* Wade Phillips), he's generally been pretty good at what an owner should be good at - picking good football people to run the show, providing lots of money, and then getting out of the way. A couple of his recent actions, however, leave me more than a bit puzzled. The first doubts started to creep in after he fired Mike Shanahan. Although Shanny was a very good coach, his act may have gone a little stale in Denver. So I could appreciate that Bowlen felt a change was in order. As I thought about it more, I came to the conclusion there was no way Bowlen would have fired a top-10 coach unless he had a very good replacement already in mind (I had concluded it was probably Bill Cowher, boy was I wrong!). As it turned out, not only did Bowlen not have a known quantity waiting in the wings, he didn't have the first clue as to who he wanted. When I heard Bowlen's strategy was going to be a whirlwind tour to interview other teams' novice coordinators, I lost more than just a little faith in his decision-making ability. Now it's come to light that the guy Mr. Bowlen eventually chose, who I like to refer to as Josh McBushleague, wants to turn the Broncos into a second-rate version of the New England Patriots. Neither Bowlen nor Josh values their young franchise quarterback enough to build a system around him. Instead, (now that Josh is stuck with him), he's going to take our 25 year old pro-bowl QB who excels at playmaking on the fly (the square peg) and try to fit him into a methodical, dink-and-dunk, high-efficiency offense (the round hole). This is not going to be easy, especially after Bowlen and McBushleague alienated their franchise QB by handling their attempt at getting rid of him in embarrassingly amatuerish fashion. And I don't think it's going to work. Now, there is nothing in the NFL that can't be fixed by approximately 10 or 12 regular-season wins. However, at this early stage, I am seriously starting to wonder when the next time Denver will even sniff 10 victories will be. If Bowlen doesn't start making better decisions, it could be quite a while.
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Yep.
If I remember, the buzz post-Shanny firing was that Mr. Bowlen was taking back control of his team. It doesn’t appear like he has much control of anything. Of course, we don’t know what is going on behind the scenes.
So far, I am up and down about Jedi McD and the X-Man. While I agree that the Cutler situation looks complete bush league for the whole organization (owner, coach, gm, and qb) I’ve liked what we’ve done in free agency for the most part.
I call that retard McBeavis because he looks stupid with that giant under bite.
Yeah ! Yeah! Fire!! Fire Blitz!! Bunghole!!
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
And I would never call him a Jedi. McMongoloid seems much more suited to him.
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
my main problem so far
Is that Shannahan was ostensibly fired because of “Shanny the GM”. At least that’s what I always hear. Shanny the GM was terrible blah blah blah. Who is making all the decisions now?
As far as I can tell, McDaniels. Haven’t seen anything from Xanders since he was instated. So where does that leave us?…
Jason
The Hanging Curve
McD wears the pants...
in that relationship.
We’ll see how Owner Bowlen and Xanders handle it, but as far as I can see, X is just there for photo ops and press conferences…almost like a representative of who really makes the decisions.
Peyton Hillis in '09.
Name him---Mr. Balls....or Thunderpussy.
I hate to burst your bubble...
but let’s dispense with the myth of Shanahan’s greatness. Yes, Shanahan was coach when the Broncos won the Super Bowl but that was as much luck on his part as anything. Shanny flat got lucky with Terrel Davis, a player he had to be talked into by Bobby Turner. Other than Davis, 90% of the rest of the Super Bowl team was already in place when Shanahan took over and the first thing he did was try to trade away Shannon Sharpe. Fortunately that trade fell through.
Since Elway retired Shanahan is a combined 91-62 over the tens years, an average record of 9-7. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t exactly overwhelm me. He made the playoffs 4 times, but since 40% of the teams make it in any given year, that is also merely average. In the playoffs he was an astounding 1-5. That doesn’t exactly blow me away either.
He may be a top 10 coach but since therwe are only 32, that makes him middle of the pack. His personnel management was atrocious, constantly letting good players like Trevor Price, Steve Attwater,etc. leave though free-agency while blowing up the roster with bone-headed signings like Daryl Gardner. Under Shanahan the organization become a dysfunction haeven of nepotism and cronyism. Everytime his teams failed his responded by firing his DC, even when offensive failures were the problem.
The real question is why did Bowlin wait so long?
McDaniels may or may not be the answer, but anything is better than continuing to wallow in ego-centric mediocrity.
BTW: Beside’s the Broncos bashing of McD, what has he actually done wrong. Maybe Cutler needed to realize that he isn’t God; that he just might be expendable.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Mar 10, 2009 11:44 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Excellent rebuttal
Rec’d SWG. I totally agree with you. I love Shanahan for bringing us to the promised land, but pride eventually caused his downfall. He was good and lucky and shouldn’t have ever gotten into the GM side of things.
McD is going to be fine…I think he’ll help bring us back into the hunt if not to the trophy. I don’t think it will be this year, but we should definitely see improvement. I’ll be happy if we go 9 – 7 and see better defense this year and our offense gets the hang of the new system.
I’ll be extatic to see us win the division and make a run of any kind in the playoffs.
Now that my realistic side is finished………..
13-3 BABY!!! w00t!!!
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
While I was surprised and a bit dismayed at Shanahan's firing,
I can’t blame Pat Bowlen for doing it. The Broncos were consistently competitive under Shanahan, but they weren’t showing signs of greatness either. While I was in favor of letting Shanny carry out the current rebuild for a couple more seasons, I was starting to argue that it should be his last chance.
Fact is, the Broncos have been mediocre since Elway retired and your comment is rec’d for blatantly saying so.
Sorry but I have to disagree that 90% of the team was in place
Key additions during Shanahan’s tenure: Eddie Mac, Rod Smith, Tony Jones, Howard Griffith, Alfred Williams, Neil Smith, Bill Romonoski, John Mobley, Dwane Carswell, Trevor Pryce, our starting CB’s, resigning Keith Taylor… so saying Mike won a SB by luck is propostourous. He brought in good vets and helped rapidly transform that team, changed the offense and defense, and did it in short time frame.
Luck does not win SB as a wild card, and luck does not give you the ability to repeat. If you want to say Barry Switzer was a lucky coach that got handed a talented team and system to win immediately, I agree, but Shanahan did more than just show up and win a SB or two.
I agree with Bowlen assessment that it may be time for a change, but give Shanahan credit for what he did do.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"McDaniels must go!" - Broncoman
I was exagerating to make a point...
I’m not saying Shanahan was another Barry Switzer. At the same time, I think he gets more credit for the Super bowl years than he deserves (as do many Super Bowl winning coaches). And Denver was not a WC that year because of a poor record. Denver and KC were probably the two best teams in the entire NFL that year.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Mar 10, 2009 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree coaches get more credit than they deserve (good and bad)
But I think it’s just unfair to say Shanahan did not have any impact or help get that team a SB, wether through signing good vets (I also left off Schlreath and Nalen), good drafts, and good coaching, you have to have all of them to win. Very rarely can you sit there and say well anybody could of coached that team and they would of won (Switzer is the only example I can think of), you need to have all the ingrediants. And I think Mike had a great run and proved he was and is a great coach. Whether he message had grown stale, or he wasn’t the personnel man latter in his career are valid points. And if we want to look at luck, then look at the Pats (basically they won their 1st SB because of some obscure rule that hadn’t been used in 40 years) and some clutch FG kicks, if Adam Veneterri misses those kicks, then Belichek would be Dan Reeves.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"McDaniels must go!" - Broncoman
Great reply SWG....
This post is a ramble and brings no proof to the table.
It reeks of buying into the MSM BS that is prevalent in all places but here. Come on guys, everyone is blowing up at Jedi because you are lovers of Jay Cutler. I get it. Cutler is talented….thats never been in dispute.
But painting this as a black and white issue is ridiculous. Why is it that in the spce of 2-3 months we have the best coaching staff and best looking D we have had in over 3-4 years. Why?
Because Bowlen saw that Shanny was running a organization based on protecting HIS coaches and HIS vets when the writing had been on the wall for over 5 years that we were an underperforming franchise.
Now, your understanding of the Patriot system is underwhelming. The fact theat McDaniels was able to match a system to Cassels strengths and go 11-5 speaks volumes. The dink and dunk attack you apeak of put up 41 points on our AWESOME broncos. And dont forget, McDaniels was also the OC of the most lethal offense ever the year before when the Pats went 18-1. Did not Brady break the TD record, so to Moss? There was a pretty down field attack.
I am pretty pissed about the overflowing negativity by many fans, based on nothing except emotion because our precious QB was mentionbed in trade talks.
WE ALL NEED TO GET OVER IT.
I am happy to hear legitimate arguments as to why McD is sucking, but it has to be more than he dangled Cutler and we have 2 ex Pats on our team.
This is nothing personal Creamy, but your post epitomised the general arguments that most are spewing……founded on nothing but MSM spin doctors and not many facts.
Thanks for the post, it will illicit discussion but I could disagree with you any less.
Peace.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
by boydy2669 on Mar 10, 2009 12:17 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Here are the defensive additions:
Release Dre’ Bly, take a cap hit. Sign Andre’ Goodman for slightly less money (and less career stats), who is pretty much the same as Bly down to the accent on his name. Same size, 9 months younger.
Sign Brian Dawkins, ancient safety. John Lynch 2.0. He should give one or two more years of worthy play, and will provide “leadership”. So I’ll take it.
Sign Renaldo Hill. Pretty old, but not so much as Dawkins. Should be better than Manuel/McCree. Upgrade at safety.
Sign Darrel Reid. Undersized DT from Indy, he’s a special teamer. At best, throw him in the pile of players with no 3-4 experience. At worst, upgrades special teams, but then again we lost guys like Leach, K2, and Paymah who were great special teamers.
Sign Andra Davis. Pretty decent LB. However, with the move to 3-4 and it’s implications, I’m going to say we have “stood pat” on LB so far.
Sign Ronald Fields. This COULD be the best signing of free agency. He’s not old (but not young either), could be a good NT, but he is not yet proven. So we have one level of depth filled at NT, at best starter, at worst backup.
Re-sign Kenny Peterson. Apparently he has some 3-4 experience? Still, you can’t call this either an upgrade or a downgrade over last year.
I’m still a little skeptical that (given an anticipated move to 3-4) this defense is better than any we’ve fielded in the last 3-4 years.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 10, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
ANd you are beyond a pesimist....
I just dont agree. Its like you are looking for reasons as to why the Broncos will fail.
We will agree to disagree mate….because I juts dont see how ANYONE cant see that the FA’s we havce picked up on defense are not an improvement on last year.
I dont get it.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Unfortunately, I know a reason why the Broncos might fail:
McDouchebag!
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
I'm not saying we aren't better than last year
I’m definitely arguing with the claim that the defense is better than any in the last 4 years. My biggest problems right now are simply the uncertainty: I think it would say a lot about the coaching staff if they DO field a moderate to good defense next year, what with all the turnover and the anticipated move to a 3-4.
And I’m not trying to be overly pessimistic either. We still have a draft (with quite a few picks), and a good draft could do wonders for this defense. I am skeptical, and still pretty unsure about how this band will come together, I hope it is well.
One of the things I am getting tired of is the absolute trashing of Shannahan’s name. That’s the main reason I pointed out that the Dawkins and Goodman signings are almost the exact same thing as Lynch and Bly, respectively, except at this point, Goodman is older than Bly was when we acquired him.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 10, 2009 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Diasgree any more...sorry...fired up about the issue...but not the fans!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Cutler vs. System
Appreciate the response. And don’t worry, people disagreeing with me isn’t going to hurt my feelings…after all, isn’t that what makes these forums interesting? :)
Jay Cutler may have handled things better on his end, granted. But one thing I noticed is the interest many other teams had in Cutler when this all went down was HUGE. 25 year-old Pro-Bowl QB’s do not grow on trees, a fact that other teams seem to understand.
Maybe we are a little spoiled in Denver, or maybe some of us have conveniently forgotten the Brian Griese era (didn’t we all say then that the system was good enough for Griese to succeed?). Maybe we need a decade or so of guys like Tavaris Jackson to remember that we are pretty lucky; that we have something special here.
And ultimately, my point (and it’s not intended to be factual, it’s just my opinion) is that I’d prefer to see McD tailor a system to Cutler’s strengths, instead of trying to trade him for a lesser talent that fits in to his system. Secondly, Bowlen should have thought about all this before he hired McDaniels. And I don’t think he did.
Happen to agree
I cringe when I hear coaches talk about their “system” and how great it is, etc. vs. having great players. I haven’t heard McD say as much and it is way, way too early to tell if he thinks like that. Here in MN, Brad Childress came sailing into town a few years back talking about his “kick ass” (yes, believe it or not, an exact quote) offense. Needless to say, he also undervalued talent at the QB position, much the way Shanny did for years before he wisened up. So, where are the Vikings after 3 seasons of his “system”? They have a “kick ass” DEFENSE because they didn’t have a “system” but went after good players and a hamstringing offense because they don’t have a QB.
Shanahan touted his system for years and look where it got him, too. I am VERY leery of guys touting their systems at the expense of players. Let’s hope McD is confident of his system while at the same time recognizing the need for players.
That said, Cutler needs to realize this league is a business. If Armstrong from the DP is correct and the Broncos were looking to get Cassell and a couple of high draft picks, then a deal would’ve made more sense. He needs to grow up and he will, I believe.
aka MN Bronco
Nice response....
My thing is there is no evidence that McD won’t be doing this either. He built a system around cassel and Brady. I think we are confusing system vs philosophy. I think Jedi has a philosophy and the system stays inside that philosophy, but is based on the players. I expect our attack to more like the 18 – 1 pats than the 11 – 5 pats as jedi has more at his disposal
Thanks Creamy
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Agree that
if McD is the coach we hope and many believe he is, then he should be able to take advantage of Cutler’s talents while making him a better QB for the system as well.
Wait and see...
I get frustrated when people start making assumptions before any proof exists. McD hasn’t coached in a single game…how do we have any idea how he is going to be? He mishandled aspects of the Cutler fiasco…but Jay made some mistakes as well. My suggestion to everyone is to give him a chance. If we don’t see progress (not a 13 win season, but meaningful progress) then come back on a repost with back up data. Otherwise we are jumping the gun.
“ALL I AM SAYING…IS GIVE MCD A CHANCE…”
Gawd, I hate that song
I remember hearing it on the radio once and I kept thinking that the song must be wrapping up soon, but it went on and on and on.
Now it’s stuck in my head. Thanks a lot BroncoJeff. :D
I’m totally down with the sentiment, though.
I’m going to go listen to my iPod now.
A little bit of a misnomer, for you will find no solace here.
possible signs
ok, these aren’t proof, but they could be signs:
-McD tried to bring in former Patriot Matt Cassel to replace Cutler.
-McD is shopping Scheffler, because his offense does not utilize a receiving tight end as much as Shanahan’s did (It relies more heavily on the 3rd receiver, i.e. former Patriot Jabbar Gaffney).
-McD’s running back by committee free-agency pickups guarantee you won’t be seeing a Terrel Davis or even Clinton Portis-like #1 running back in Denver any time soon. Does the running back “specialist” philosophy remind you of anyone else’s? New England’s maybe?
So far, he has shown himself to be more interested in bringing in new players that fit his system than he is in modifying his system to fit the players he has. This doesn’t trouble me too much, except in the case of Cutler. I believe Cutler is a franchise QB, and I think McD’s actions so far have demonstrated a stunning lack of ability to evaluate talent and possibly a lack of ability to adapt.
The potential lack of ability to adapt is an extremely important subject. Because if all McD can do is turn Denver into some 2nd rate copy of the Patriots, we’re going to struggle. You can never beat the best just by imitating them.
this is a perfect example of warping the data to fit your presuposition...
McD trying to replace Cutler – while some of the media have pushed that opinion the most reliable sources tell us that McD was approached. Did he consider it? Of course as would any competent coach. But he rejected it. What does that mean? We really don’t know.
Shopping Scheffler – if true, then why doesn’t Scheffler’s agent know about it. Why doesn’t anyone other than a reporter at the DP have any news on this rumor? And the reason (that Scheffler doesn’t fit), was pure speculation on Mike Klis’s part (he even said so).
Did McD pick up RB by committee backs because that was his preference or because that’s all that was available? I don’t know about you, but I didn’t see a single “franchise” type back available except possibly Ward and they did try to sign him.
I don’t think this shows anything, unless the Paxton signing proves your point. Certainly as boydy pointed out McD brings an offensive and defensive philosophy with him, as do all coaches. He also wants to install his own terminology and offensive system in the sense of how plays are designated, what the reads are etc.
But to assume that there is a rigid, one size fits all, NE system flies in the face of reality. When Cory Dillon was still able to, NE used a feature back type approach. As Dillon aged they went to more of a RB by committee approach with a lot of dink and dunk to control the ball. When they signed Moss (who didn’t fit at all with their previous system), they went to a serious vertical passing attack though that had never been their MO before. When Brady went down, they went to dink and dunk again because it fit Cassel better. I’d say that McD has been adaptable more than anything. I don’t see why that would abruptly change.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Mar 10, 2009 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Add to the fact...
They drafted Maroney as that FRANCHISE back who has proved to be underwhelming. The Pats are forced to use RB by committee as they have a lot of money tied up in Maroney.
We have bigger needs than RB so McD is filling that need by bringing in role players that can fill a role he would like to see a franchise back play.
There is a tonne of negativity on here with marginal facts.
OUR JOB AS BRONCO FANS IS TO GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. WE CAN DISAGREE FOR SURE WITH THE ORGANIZATION, BUT LETS AT LEAST BASE THAT ON FACT AND NOT WHAT WE WANT TO PERCIEVE.
As mentioned above, it is way to early to be calling BS on the new regime…WAY to early.
Thanks crew!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Maroney - underwhelming?
Can it be? I remeber Charles Robinson pronouncing him THE steal of the draft.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Mar 10, 2009 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Ands if we did not get Cutler he was OUR choice...
I amy not agree with everything Jay does but I am sure as hell glad we got him and not Maroney!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Yep.
I thought he’d be further along, but last year he had a paltry 28 carries.
From an upcoming article:
When you say that NE spreads out their carries, look at these stats:
A lot of folks would consider Kevin Faulk or LaMont Jordan to have been NEs ‘top backs’. Not at all. Their top RB was Sammie Morris, with 156 carries for 727 yds, a 4.7 average. LaMont Jordan had 80 carries for 353 yds. and a 4.5 average. But Kevin Faulk had 83 carries for 507 yards and a 6.0 average. Lawrence Maroney had 28 carries for 93 yards. Then you have Ben-Jarvus Green-Ellis, with 74 carries 98.2 per game) and 275 yds. They spread the ball around. That’s bad news for those Bronco fans that yearn for a 1st round back pounding and dodging his way into Canton. It seems very unlikely to happen.
Hillis in '09
And WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too early
to annoint McDaniels as the second coming of Shanahan. “McJedi” indeed – talk about your marginal facts.
One thing I know for sure - I'm usually wrong.
the main problem with McD is...
Nobody has any idea what is going on at Dove Valley. We are an intelligent fanbase, not just in Denver, but nationwide, that want to know what’s going on with our team. McD doing his best Belichick impression and not telling us anything doesn’t sit well with Bronco fans. We are not just Sunday fans, or even seasonal fans, rather year round fans. Like Cutler, we want to feel like we are important to the organization.
As far as what system/philosophy McD is going to run, he won’t tell us anything, and I know I am starting to resent it
I understand, but
how communicative was Shanahan this time of year?
We have grown used to knowing what to expect from Shanahan (as had his opponents) and now we are faced with uncertainty. But I think the tactical advantage to be gained by secrecy regarding our plans for free-agency and the draft, which includes the systems McD intends to run, probably outweight our desire from information.
Let’s suppose McD does intend to trade Scheffler. What would he gain by anouncing it? If he does not intend to trade Scheffler, what does he gain by renouncing it. Teams are busy gaming each other heading into the draft. The REALLY don’t want other teams to know their intentions.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Mar 10, 2009 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions
We have to forget how the old regime was...it is dead and buried...
And to feel resentful because you are not being told anything is unfair on the new HC and GM. They do business different….not better or worse…..but different.
Just give ti a chance to play out before we bag the crap out of it!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
The info should be more forthcoming soon
I don’t see it as being particularly belicheckish right now. Last year at this time, we were trying to find things to say about Niko, and after the draft shanny only had about two paragraphs to say to reporters, so the lack of info isn’t anything new. If there is a difference it is that we have a lot more questions this year as fans, because with a HC switch so much is going to change.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 10, 2009 9:22 PM MDT up reply actions
If McD is smart, he won't even pay any attention to how the fans feel - yet
After all – it’s the nature of people to kvetch. We all tend to, in degree. Those of us who don’t tend to kvetch about those who do….
McD was hired for one of the toughest jobs in football. He’s got a plan in mind, about a million things that he doesn’t know anythings about to decide and 10 million that he does. If he wins, we’ll like him. If not – he won’t last. He knows those things.
It isn’t part of football to hold a session like the British Parliment where fans get to tell him their feelings. I’d love that, but it’s not going to happen. And that’s Ok.
When we know more, we’ll be happy. Long about the day after the draft, we’ll be dissecting the Brnocos Big Board. Should be a great offseason.
Hillis in '09
If McD were really smart
He would hire HT as a consultant / Bear as medical adviser / and TSG as internet public relations guy.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
Don't forget Fantasy Football Consultant!!
For those inter-owner leagues. Al Davis always finishes last. Every year he spends his first rounder on Fred Biletnikoff.
I picked the wrong weekend to quit sniffing glue...
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