Divining the McDaniels Way, Part 3 - The Passing Game
This series is the outcome of a month-long collaboration between nycbroncosfan and broncobear. In general, NYC covered the stats and Doc handled most of the writing and analysis. We hope that it sheds light on some of the questions that have arisen as to just what, exactly, Josh McDaniels has been doing with the New England offense over the past four years. It also looks at Jay Cutler's time as the primary starter in Denver over the past two years to establish where the two Patriots and Broncos do and do not match up. We thoroughly enjoyed working on this project and hope that you will take just as much pleasure in reading it. Hopefully it will answer some of your questions about what to expect of the 2009 Broncos, and we look forward to your comments and critiques. Many thanks to our esteemed colleagues styg50 and hoosierteacher for their input, and to Zappa for his invaluable aid in managing the code and the templates.
Part 1 featured an overview of the Patriots' and Broncos' offenses, while Part 2 focused on the running game. Today, we look at the Passing Game. Of course, much has changed around here lately; as with the previous sections, Part 3 compares the Jay Cutler-led Broncos with the Josh McDaniels-led Patriots. Naturally, the importation of Kyle Orton may have some effect on what the Broncos' passing game is able to accomplish as compared with a Cutler-led offense. However, many issues continue to be relevant - the Broncos still have many of the same weapons and the O-Line remains intact. The purpose is still to see what has been for us as fans, to understand what McDaniels has been doing and to look to the future for whatever clues may be found. In the future, look for additional articles dealing with Chris Simms' background and tendencies as well as Kyle Orton's and some comparative issues between them.
A Short Analysis of NE Offense
There are certain overall patterns that emerged that we expect to see, in degree, from Josh McDaniels when the Broncos take the field in 2009. We've mentioned before that we consider the New England offensive approach to include "a willingness to use the running backs in committee to maximize production from the team, good tight ends that have a specific role in the scheme, and an attack based in three or more receivers, liberal use of the shotgun and passing first, including but not limited to the use of short running-back passes." Those beliefs were borne out by this experience.
We have also previously noted that New England tends to win because they emphasize preparation, knowledge, excellent execution of specific roles and intellect as well as physical ability. They tend to play smarter, but do not sacrifice the ability to play very physical football at the same time. This combination of scheme, flexibility, role-specific skill and execution as well as the importance of the team over the individual proved itself to effectively maximize the contribution of its players within their football system.
Because of that, it's impossible to get too specific about New England's tendencies without noting that they change greatly from game to game. It's one constant - the application of the unexpected - and I'd have to consider that a strength of their approach.
Continued inside...
Formations and Impressions
Wikipedia suggests that the Patriots run a variation of the classic Erhardt-Perkins offense. They installed it under Charlie Weis, changed it to suit personnel, gained input from Bill Belichick and also from Urban Meyer and adapted it still further under Josh McDaniels. While their offensive stratagem began as an Erhardt-Perkins approach, it is now several generations removed.
Secondly, and this is essential: As Doc has noted before, in one sense there is no single Patriots offense. Their designation of the Amoeba is a just description. Like all NFL teams, they vary formations and plays at need. New England just seems to do so at a very high level with great intention. That's one of the main facets of the Amoeba Offense. The games Doc saw gave him several specific examples.
Doc: For the game against Indy with the Patriots on the road, the general analysis was not surprising. New England used multiple formations and constantly varied them. While Mike Shanahan would run 10 different plays out of 1 formation. In their game, New England is at times the polar opposite - they never seemed to run the same formation twice in this game and instead frequently ran the same play out of many different formations.
They liked the shotgun in all games, using it anywhere between 45% and 68% of the time: that ratio varied as well. They generally aren't in the same formation on any two plays, and they may not run the same play in a single quarter or half. They use a fullback on about 1 play in 4 or 5, or as little as 1 in 10, depending on down and distance. The running back was most commonly in the I formation or standing next to the quarterback if he was in the shotgun. And, as we will discuss, how much they used certain formations varied greatly by which half it was and tb he score of the game.
New England used the 'spread formation' in which they spread the field both horizontally and vertically, most commonly against St. Louis and NY (Jets) Their variants on the spread (I am using this term somewhat loosely, although the Pats' tendency to use this formation both vertically and laterally was obvious) included using a tight end and/or a back as receivers and varying between 3 and 5 receivers on any given play. Anyone could be kept as a blocker - wide receiver, tight end or back. I did not count it as a spread formation with less than three wideouts unless the play specifically spread the field both horizontally and laterally. And, any and all receivers (WR, TE and/or RB/FB) could be on a particular route, with lots of routes out of the same formation(s). Again, in the Indy game, they rarely used a single formation with multiple variants, running a dizzying number of formations that stretched the Colts defense to the breaking point. In other games, running different plays out of the same formation was common, although in constantly varying degrees.
The complexity of New England's attack really stood out. Indianapolis, as a different example, uses a lot of routes that snarl the corners and safeties on one receiver while the other gets open: they employ lots of misdirection routes, and they do them better than anyone I've watched. The Pats, on the other hand, used a wide range of one- and two-tight end sets to counter, with from one to four other receivers, intermingling dominant shotgun formations with the quarterback taking snaps under center and different running-back sets. The tight ends were constantly on the move to create different looks, often with one tight end in motion. Even having a TE dropping back into a running back's stance was frequent.
While they like the 'spread' formations, against Indy they used them less than I expected. They do have a wide array of spread-type formations that they do employ, though, and I saw them most heavily against the Rams, particularly in the first half. When they do use a spread formation, even with an empty backfield, they are as likely to run a draw or an off-tackle run from a handoff as they are to pass. In some plays I watched, the RB can drop back from his 'receivers' position just behind the O line at the snap or Cassel might run, etc.
They also tried several wide-receiver screens and a couple of tight-end screens mixed in, off of spread formations. It's clear that as frequently as they use it, it's just a tool to them, rather than a dominating preference. It was clear that they wield the tools - the tools don't wield them, which is an important difference. However, since the weakness of their use of the spread - ignoring zone in favor of man coverage and blitzing far more often - has been exposed, I would expect McDaniels and New England separately to begin to change that tendency over 2009. They will probably change tools, in degree.
I saw a play using Welker that interested me against Miami. He started at the LOWR position, in a 2-up, 2-back receiver formation that New England likes to use. Just after the snap, Welker took off at a dead run to his right across the field, moving just above the line of scrimmage. By the time Welker reached the far side, Cassel was out of the pocket, rolling right; and while no one else was free, Welker had time for coffee. Easy throw and catch, 12 yards. Eddie Royal would be very tough to stop with that route, perhaps even impossible.
By the way, that's a common formation for New England. In it, they employ five down O-Linemen. There are two receivers - one a tight end (it varies as to which one), upright in a receiver stance behind the front 5 and on the outer edges of the O-Line. The second of those receivers might be a back, a tight end or a wideout. Two wide receivers are out wide. From this beginning, they run a wide array of routes and options, including bootleg, play action, the above-mentioned route and a nearly-endless set of other options. Miami uses the same formation, with the left inside receiver being a running back, to run one version of their Wildcat, a formation that had some initial success but seemed to sputter as the season went on.
The thing that struck me about the Patriots' style is that they are constantly probing, pushing, and looking for a weakness. You can watch it unfold, attacking one point after another, quickly, but in sequence. It's not as smash-mouth an approach as the original Erhardt-Perkins or, say, Miami or Pittsburgh would use. It's perhaps more like fencing than boxing.
Playing the Colts is probably a bit like being in a knife fight - they are constantly cutting at you until you are exhausted. New England seems slightly different - you can watch them constantly looking for the best adjustments. This probing side of the amoeba tendency alone will win its own certain share of close games. Making adjustments is a huge skill, the Broncos has often lacked in over the past years and Josh McDaniels does it very well.
The Patriots obviously like being unpredictable. Most teams do, of course, but in the film I watched, New England took it to the extreme. While there are statistical norms, in any single game there are no specific passing or rushing downs for the Pats. They will pass on short yardage, run (often a draw) on 3rd and long, 2nd and short or any other situation. Overall, it's hard to stop, and I suspect that it's nearly impossible to predict. Obviously, the matchups are a constant series of smaller battles, and those remain individual, but the overall tenor was partly based in avoiding normal responses to the given situations in order to confuse the opposing defense. As NYC's statistics showed, it works far more often that it fails.
Passing and the O-Lines
| Performance of Pats and Broncos O-Lineman in 2008 and 2009 Season Age | ||||||||||||
| NE Starters | '09 Age | Starts | Sacks | Pen | Sks+Pen | DEN Starters | '09 Age | Starts | Sacks | Pen | Sks+Pen | |
| LT | Light | 31 | 16 | 7.5 | 1 | 8.5 | Clady | 23 | 16 | 0.5 | 3 | 3.5 |
| LG | Mankins | 27 | 16 | 5 | 2 | 7 | Hamilton | 32 | 16 | 2.5 | 6 | 8.5 |
| C | Koppen | 30 | 16 | 4.5 | 2 | 6.5 | Wiegmann | 36 | 16 | 1 | 3 | 4 |
| RG | Neal(Yates) | 33(29) | 9(7) | 2(6.25) | 2(1) | 4(7.25) | Kuper | 27 | 16 | 0 | 4 | 4 |
| RT | Kaczur(LeVoir) | 30(27) | 14(2) | 4(2) | 3(0) | 7(2) | Harris | 24 | 16 | 2.5 | 2 | 4.5 |
| Tot/Avg | 30.2 | 80 | 31.25 | 11 | 42.25 | 28.4 | 80 | 6.5 | 18 | 24.5 | ||
New England's O-Line was clearly at its weakest when being asked to pass-block. Cassel's sack percentage was 26th in the league, but the Patriots O-Line's pass protection was not merely sub-par. Its players are aging and the line's effectiveness is beginning to break down, although these may be separate issues. Matt Light and Nick Kaczur have been criticized by some writers as having lost a step, and their production as a line is certainly down. Four of their starters will be over age 30 during the upcoming season: Light (31), Dan Koppen (30), Stephen Neal (33) and Kaczur (30). Is it age?
That's one possible explanation, but they aren't doddering geriatrics, either. I wondered at whether the explanation was accurate, and after listening to hoosierteacher and styg50 I don't see it as that simple. The issues of decreased physical flexibility are probably legitimate, the injuries hampered them and the changes of personnel meant that players weren't used to each other. In both zone blocking and in gap blocking, the timing is key. In pass protection, you have to be able to trust the guy next to you, and that didn't always work out for the Pats. There were issues that came down to simply missing assignments
The injury bug hit the right side of the line, and Billy Yates was guilty of 6.25 sacks in 7 games before Steve Neal returned. Once Neal took over, he was a little better, being responsible for 2 sacks in 9 games. Backup RT Mark LeVoir was guilty of 2 sacks in two starts. 31-year old left tackle Matt Light was dunned with 7.5 over the season. Regardless of your opinion on the source of the problems, they will be looking for help in the draft or FA.
As noted, the Broncos were on the other extreme. Their linemen were charged with only 7.5 sacks over the course of the season, with rookie Kory Lichtensteiger being thrust in at RG for a few plays and giving up one. Rookie left tackle Ryan Clady was charged with but one half-sack and had only 3 penalties. RG Chris Kuper didn't give up a single sack in 16 games, but isn't even mentioned in Pro Bowl or All-Pro discussions. Casey Wiegmann gave up a single sack and made KC wonder why on earth they let him go (so do we). Ben Hamilton was the 'weak link', but while 6 penalties is too high, he give up only 2.5 sacks in 16 starts and seemed completely healed from his concussion.
What we can hope for...
| TD and INT Rates | ||||||||||
| TD% | INT% | |||||||||
| DEN '07-'08 | 4.05% | 2.91% | ||||||||
| NE '05-'08 | 5.61% | 2.13% | ||||||||
Better TD and INT rates - Perhaps these numbers have more to do with the player's decision-making ability than with coaching or scheme - but we can hope, right? Even if it's a decision-making issue, part of that is obviously coaching. The reality is that Cutler was prone to certain mistakes - not looking off the primary target and forcing throws were among them. At times the problems was with the receiver, but not often. Percentages like these tend to look small, but let's put them into perspective: Over a 500-pass attempt season (a modest number), those rates translate into a 20 TD/14.5 INT season versus a 28 TD/10.7 INT season. These are not small differences.
McDaniels did a remarkable job with Cassel, who hadn't previously started a game since high school. He molded the game to Cassel, increasing the complexity quickly over the season, and taught Cassel to take advantage of the game. The raw material that he will have to work with in Orton and Simms will at least be acceptable (in our opinion) and it could be tremendous, as we'll talk about in those later articles. As many among us have noted, Orton has a lot more potential than we would have believed prior to expanded analysis (and we have more on that to come), Chris Simms was a very good quarterback prior to his injury and there is no reason to believe that he won't be a very good one now. With either Orton or Simms, we look for the numbers to improve in overall touchdowns and to decrease in interceptions based upon what McDaniels accomplished in New England.
| Sacks and Yards Lost | ||||||||||
| Sacks | Yds Lost | Sack% | ||||||||
| DEN '07 | 32 | 175 | 5.85% | |||||||
| DEN '08 | 12 | 74 | 1.90% | |||||||
| DEN Avg | 22 | 124.5 | 3.73% | |||||||
| NE '05 | 28 | 202 | 4.73% | |||||||
| NE '06 | 29 | 190 | 5.22% | |||||||
| NE '07 | 21 | 128 | 3.46% | |||||||
| NE '08 | 48 | 221 | 8.25% | |||||||
| NE Avg | 31.5 | 185.3 | 5.39% | |||||||
The same pass protection - at least we can hope for it. As noted, here's a category where the Broncos were far superior to the Patriots in 2008. As everyone here at MHR knows, Ryan Clady's arrival at left tackle and the ascension of Ryan Harris to the starting lineup at right tackle had quite a bit to do with that. Clady was charged with merely 0.5 sacks, while 2.5 sacks were attributed to Harris. Denver has the bookends for a happy and effective O-Line for many years to come. Of course, Casey Wiegmann's contribution cannot be overlooked - Wiegmann was only charged with 1.0 sack and made the Pro Bowl for the first time in his 13-year career, although as an alternate.
Cutler does have very good mobility, and the Broncos' love of the bootleg was a very effective tool over much of the season. Neither Orton nor Simms is quite as athletic, but with the increased levels of protection, either should be able to take advantage and get the throws off in time. The scheme and coaching of McDaniels' approach should be of benefit.
New England will have to do better than they did last season, but Josh won't be there to worry about it. Brady's faster release was part of the improvement in 2007 (as was a lightened injury bug), but Cassel didn't take sacks exclusively because of his pocket presence and throw mechanics. He was chased, hurried and harassed due to poor O line play. He became quick to pull it down and run or to throw the ball through enlightened self-interest - it kept him off the turf. The lines starters just weren't good in pass protection and their backups didn't play well. A lack of depth is a tough thing to overcome, as the Broncos are no doubt considering as the draft beckons.
| Pass-Depth and -Direction Propensity - Broncos '07-'08 and Patriots '06-'08 | ||||||||||
| Short | Deep | Short Left | Short Middle | Short Right | Deep Left | Deep Middle | Deep Right | |||
| DEN '07-'08 | 81.0% | 19.0% | 31.2% | 16.8% | 33.0% | 6.2% | 5.4% | 7.4% | ||
| NE '06-'08* | 82.9% | 17.1% | 31.8% | 20.7% | 30.4% | 6.7% | 4.0% | 6.4% | ||
*Unfortunately these statistics are unavailable prior to the 2006 season, so in this instance we can only look at New England through a three-year window.
More short passes - These numbers don't exactly jump off the screen, as the differentials between the Broncos' and Patriots' tendencies are not as large as other examples. Not surprisingly, it looks like we can expect a very slightly-heavier reliance upon short passes, especially over the middle of the field. Cutler's accuracy will be a boon here. Over a 500-pass attempt season, the additional 3.9% of short-middle passes only translates to 20 balls going that way, but it's still a difference. The overall scheme is unlikely to change. In '07-'08, Cutler/Bates liked the deep passes on the right and middle substantially more often than did NE over the same period. That's likely to change.
This is another area where the incoming scheme and the current QB options seem ready-made for each other. Both Simms and Orton seem capable, based on past performance, of taking advantage of a NE-style scheme and staying, for the most part, with shorter, more accurate passes. Cutler's incredible velocity could even be a downside at times, leaving his receivers with bent and injured fingers and hands. A lighter ball, accurately thrown, can lead to better numbers in the short passing game.
The New England tendency has been to stretch the field both vertically and horizontally. Both Simms and Orton are capable of making some of the deep throws. Regarding Orton, TedB, in this week's Shallow Thoughts and Nearsighted Observations noted,
In this highlight package, you can see Orton hit on slants, deep outs, fades and crossing patterns, but what I was really impressed with was his touch on deep throws. This used to be his weakness, but he's vastly improved his skills in this area. He shows a lot of skill in dropping the ball over the top of the CB, and outside of the S against Cover-2 looks. That's something which neither of our last 2 QBs had much skill at. One of the keys to the McDaniels offense is challenging the deep outside, and I am confident that Orton has the skill set to do it.
That's good news. As we'll talk about in the future, Simms also has some skill in that area.
Pass Distribution
| Pass Production by Position - Broncos '07-'08 and Patriots '05-'08 | |||||||||||
| Pos | Rec | Yds | YPR | TD | % of Rec | Pos | Rec | Yds | YPR | TD | % of Rec |
| DEN RB | 102 | 836 | 8.20 | 3 | 14.3% | NE RB | 316 | 2,842 | 8.99 | 9 | 22.3% |
| DEN TE | 164 | 2,009 | 12.25 | 16 | 23.0% | NE TE | 218 | 2,539 | 11.65 | 31 | 15.3% |
| DEN WR | 446 | 5,459 | 12.24 | 27 | 62.6% | NE WR | 886 | 11,180 | 12.62 | 84 | 62.4% |
| DEN Tot | 712 | 8,304 | 11.66 | 46 | 100% | NE Tot | 1,420 | 16,561 | 11.66 | 124 | 100% |
We took these numbers for the two years that Cutler started for the Broncos and the last 4 years for New England. What are striking are the similarities, if you look at overall averages.
As you can see, the Broncos and Patriots had very similar passing distributions in two areas - fullback and wide receiver. Fullback is a small consideration for each offense, and that may influence the used of certain players. Evans only received 3 passes his entire year (10 games). Morris subbed as a lead blocker at times.
Although stats showed the fullback passes over the 4 years notched a hefty 3.4% total for NE, that number is heavily skewed by 2005, where Patrick Pass (playing some RB due to injuries) caught 23 balls and Heath Evans 10. The following year, Pass only caught 2 and Evans 7. Over the next two years, with Pass gone, Evans only caught 4 balls in 2007 and then 3 in his 10 games of 2008. Clearly - as McDaniels ran the offense over time, the use of the fullback as a receiver declined to almost nothing.
If McDaniels isn't concerned with the fullback position as a rusher or receiver when he comes to training camp in Denver, he has precedent in his work with New England. Andrew Pinnock would be perfect in McDaniels' offense as it was run with the Pats. Not surprisingly, he survived the purge. For those of us who hope to see Spencer Larsen at linebacker and Hillis at running back/H-back, that's good news.
Both teams chose the WR option about 62.5% of the time, and it's safe to say that the WR pass was the primary approach of both passing attacks. The discrepancy that matters is between the TE and RB. Denver, under Shanahan and his coordinators relied on the tight end pass 23.0% of the time, but only threw to the RB 10.7%. McDaniels while at NE preferred to throw to his running backs 18.9% of the time, but went to the TE on 15.3% of the throws. This fact has been blown out of proportion, in our opinion.
| Tight End Receiving Statistics - Broncos '07-'08 & Patriots '05-'08 | ||||||||||
| Team/Year | Rec | Yds | YPR | TD | Lg | RPG | YPG | |||
| DEN '07 | 81 | 891 | 11.0 | 8 | 41 | 5.1 | 55.7 | |||
| DEN '08 | 83 | 1,118 | 13.5 | 8 | 72 | 5.2 | 69.9 | |||
| DEN Avg | 82 | 1,004 | 12.25 | 8 | 56.5 | 5.2 | 62.8 | |||
| NE '05 | 57 | 738 | 13.0 | 13 | 45 | 3.6 | 46.1 | |||
| NE '06 | 81 | 1,037 | 12.8 | 6 | 40 | 5.1 | 64.8 | |||
| NE '07 | 48 | 471 | 9.8 | 10 | 35 | 3.0 | 29.4 | |||
| NE '08 | 31 | 302 | 9.7 | 2 | 29 | 1.9 | 18.9 | |||
| NE Avg | 54.25 | 637 | 11.7 | 7.75 | 37.25 | 3.4 | 39.8 | |||
Using the Tight Ends
The issue that many Broncos fans have is that this could mean that tight ends Graham et al (including Scheffler, who is training with the team and who they have said that they value) might be on the receiving end of less passes. In reality, we don't know anything of the sort. McDaniels has noted publicly that he likes the idea of using Scheffler's receiving skills. We only know two things - McDaniels was the offensive coordinator under Belichick, who utilized the running back pass 23% of the time. And, that style was inherited with some changes from Charlie Weis and it worked.
Notice that New England's passes to tight ends dropped from 81 in 2006, (the same number that Scheffler and Graham together caught in 2007), to 48 in 2007, to just 31 in 2008. Why? It might be because Randy Moss and Wes Welker, both far better targets, came to town, combined with the departure of Daniel Graham to Denver. Some have argued that New England isn't happy with tight end Ben Watson, but other than media speculation I haven't found specific evidence of that and there is some evidence to the contrary. The Patriots now have better receivers, so they get them the ball more. It's simple.
The Patriots' tight ends were very active in 2008, running a wide variety of sets with both 1 and 2 tight ends. However, they blocked, spread the field, created mismatches, chips and generally made life miserable for the opposing defense and caught only 8% less passes as a factor of the whole attack than did the ones in Denver, despite the fact that Watson was a disappointment to them in receiving and the other two were even worse in that department. Again, it's likely that McDaniels is just using what he has to best advantage. The second thing we do know is based in that McDaniels has been repeatedly on record as saying that his offense will be different from what he has done in that past.
If his offense will be so different, why do an extensive analysis? It's because every coach will make certain decisions and preferences based on what he has seen work. He will then make changes based on the things that his imagination tells him will work in the future. We can't know the second, but we can become more cognitive of the things that have been done, what has and hasn't worked, and what areas he might see as needs or options, as well as situation like the fullback receptions where there is a clear direction. That is what we will cover next, in our section on Down/Distance Play Propensities and Conclusions
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Comments
Kudos once again.
Great information.
The one thing that stood out to me was when you compared the pass distribution between position for the Broncos in 07-08 and the Patriots from 05-08. Of course the TE was a glaring difference, but also look at touchdowns. We had just 46 TDs, compared to NE’s 124. Sure the Pats had two more seasons of stats, but 46 times 2 only equals 92. The Patriots would still have had 32 more TDs in that span.. crazy.
We average 23 passing TDs per season, while the Patriots average 31 passing TDs. Interesting since the Bronco single season record all-time is just 27. lol Will Kyle Orton break that record? :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 10, 2009 12:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
great point, Zappa
We average 23 passing TDs per season, while the Patriots average 31 passing TDs. Interesting since the Bronco single season record all-time is just 27. lol Will Kyle Orton break that record? :)
My answer is ‘probably’. If you look at the line and the weapons that we have right now (plus whatever we add in the draft) a QB with good accuracy in the shorter game and the ability that TedB noted to spread the field on certain categories of longer passes has the sky as the limit. My only codicil is found in Part 2 – it’s likely that we will score more TDs next year by rushing than we did this year. But will we score enough overall to make up for it? Very likely, in one bear’s opinion.
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pats' Red-Zone Scheming is of Interest Here
I did one year of time (figuratively) in Massachusets during the ‘07 Pats’ season. Listening to WEEI while I drove from Somerville to New Beford daily was a curse and a pleasure. On ething that was clear from the obsessive Pats coverage on the station was that they had rehearsed their Red Zone plays to an almost comical degree. To hear folks talk, the plays had been run so many times that Brady knew where every player would be on every second of every play. It’s like a condensed version of the Walsh-timing system.
This excites me because the Broncos’ red-zone play calling of late has more often than not come down to 1. Run up the gut. 2. QB bootleg to FB short out going right. 3. Fade. It often seemed like Shanny was more interested in what happened between the 20s than in the end-game.
The other point is that Wes Welker was the benerficiary of that system in NE. Eddie Royal will get the Welker role in Denver (M*ssholes would slot Stokely into that role, but that’s because they only see the world in two colors). I think Royal is going to have an enormous year.
by Chibronx on Apr 10, 2009 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Encouraging thoughts
Thank you for your perspective!
by CoastalBronco on Apr 10, 2009 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
That was one my primary concerns entering this last season.
I view the RB and TE data in a positive light, since it shows willingness to throw to the RBs, which was still not evident last year for the Broncos.
My knowledge of the ‘X & Os’ is limited on this, but I like the use the RB who’s kept in to block as a red zone target. Waiting for region to clear, or blocking and then releasing, and then trickling out for a pass is another way of stretching the field. There are so many uses for RBs in the red zone passing game that take advantage of the poor pass coverage that RBs receive. Forcing the defense to come up stretches the defense vertically in a way that’s often not considered.
I saw some promise entering into this last season but the number of completions to RBs actually went down. Having pass catching RBs such as Pittman, Hillis and Selvin Young, and then not using them for that capacity seems a tremendous waste. I recall Shanahan saying something about Cutler not using the short dump offs enough, and the statistics bear this out. The objective is the same as running the ball, to increase the TOP. And just as with screen passes, using the defense’s pursuit of the QB to burn them is great tactic. Considering that forcing the ball into deep coverage will be less in vogue this year, expanding the involvement of the RBs in the passing game is overdue.
by Colinski on Apr 10, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're right, 'Ski
I watched a lot of film of Hillis et al being wide staring open and the pass being forces. It was caught, or dropped, or missed or was intercepted, but the easy completion and 1st down was too often botched. A bad QB habit that never was fixed – better luck next team, as it were.
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
added thoughts on passing to RBs
What makes this issue memorable was a post I did in which I examined the distribution of receptions in the passing game. I was hoping for more involvement by the RBs .Selvin Young, 35 catches, was used fairly often but it goes down hill from there (Sapp, 14 rec., Henry, 7 rec., etc.). The leading RB receivers in 2008 are Hillis, with 14 rec., and Pitmann, 10 rec., Bell, 10 rec., and a trickle after that.
it should be acknowledged that receptions were up overall — (07) – 386 rec., 4545 yds. V. (08) – . 326 rec., 3759 yds., but it doesn’t translate to a much more effective offense.
Some stats.
Rushing – (07 v. 08): 429 attempts for 1957 yds. V. 387 attempts for 1862 yds.
Total yards (07 v 08): 5716yds. V. 6407 yds.
Points – (07 v. 08): 326 pts. V. 366 pts.
I’ll let the others do the number crunching but my guess — which is partly from watching them — is that we’re not getting the ‘bang for our buck’ with all those extra yards in the passing game. And I didn’t really need to list the numbers to show this since I already knew there was a big discrepancy between the yardage numbers and points scored. We’re an average team in points scored but an exceptional one in yards gained — primarily through the passing game.
There doesn’t appear to be a difference in percentages for the increase in yards and the increase in points but we’re dealing with the SAME problem over two years. Our increased yardage brings more points but we’re still a ‘big yards’ gained team but an average ‘points scored’ team.
Defense is part of the story — of course — and (07): 388 pts. allowed V. (08): 446 pts. allowed tells a big part of the win/loss record, but I don’t think that accounts for why our increase in yardage didn’t equate to an equally large increase in points.
Most of this has been covered before, ad nauseam — we need to control the ball more and limit the other team’s opportunities to score, which also lessens the pressure on our defense by cutting into their time-of-possession (TOP). As I said before the season, there is a such a thing as scoring too quickly. Increasing our TOP wears their defense down and makes it easier to run late in the game. I don’t think it matters if it’s a ‘pass first’ offense, either. Becoming one-dimensional is a bad strategy from a game-theoretic point of view, and we lacked alternate threats. We were fine in the middle of the field but we looked like we didn’t know what to do once we were in the red zone.
by Colinski on Apr 10, 2009 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
hearing you mention a back trickling out to the region that clears
reminds me of the very reliable goaline toss from plummer to FB kyle jonhson for an easy 6.
by neurospasm on Apr 11, 2009 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Before we lost track of it, the fullback pass was a regular part of our repertoire. Howard G was a master of it in that day. I keep hoping that it will come back, but other than the coelacanth, it hasn’t worked well for the other dinosaurs either ;-)
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 11, 2009 7:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most definitely rec'd!
Thanks for the vast wealth of information! I especially like how you stated that Orton has improved the touch on his long throws…Got me more excited for the Neckbeard era to begin!
"I can do all things through HIM who gives me strength"
by BroncoCountryHawaii on Apr 10, 2009 1:06 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Great Job, Again
I had expected NE to throw a far greater share of its passes to the backfield. Your close look at the numbers was very informative on that count.
A few questions:
First, did the game film show any relationship between sacks and interceptions? One reasonable hypothesis is that Jay-C’s low sack total sprung in part from his willingness to force the ball. Contrariwise, Cassell might have saved some INTs by allowing himself to get planted a number of times. Line play is obviously a huge part of the equation, but it’s still a question I have.
Second, how did you code short vs. long passes? I was surprised that the difference between the teams was so small. Not that you don’t have better things to do, but recoding the passes short/medium/long might help to unearth some real differences. My gut says the Broncos’ passing attempts were mostly medium/long. But my gut is often wrong.
Thanks again — you guys should send this to some of the cranky journalists who are pretending Bowlen junked a consistent playoff winner for a fresh-faced moron. The sophistication and strategy evident in the Pats approach makes me salivate. It’s like they’re playing a different game than everybody else….
by Chibronx on Apr 10, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Wonderful, I have been looking forward to this all morning. If we can do half of what you suggest, we shall be The application of
the unexpected ( your words ). What we lacked over the last few years, was the ability to adjust the game plan on the fly.
Great write up Doc & nyc, I enjoy the read and learn so much, its information you can get no where else. THANKS
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Apr 10, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, CB
First, did the game film show any relationship between sacks and interceptions? One reasonable hypothesis is that Jay-C’s low sack total sprung in part from his willingness to force the ball. Contrariwise, Cassell might have saved some INTs by allowing himself to get planted a number of times. Line play is obviously a huge part of the equation, but it’s still a question I have.
The difference in line play was talked about heavily in both Part 2 and 3, and it is a big factor. Watching the games, Cutler had a lot more time. That being the case, you could wonder why he had so many interceptions. Cassel may have been smart with the ball, but generally he just got planted.
I’ll let Doug handle the breakdown of the passes – he had stats for nearly everything. The more I watched this and Doug broke it down, the more we felt strongly that we can easily see what was on Pat’s mind. I’ve mentioned this before, but since Josh had a 6 hour presentation ready for Ellis and Bowlen in less than a week, he had to have been working towards creating his team for a long time. Analysis should help shape opinion….
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The forcefulness of your answer on this subject says a lot. One reason I keep coming back to the question is that Shanny went to great lengths last year to talk up Jay-C’s ability to elude pressure. He made several point-blank statements about linemen getting too much credit (and QBs too little) for avoiding sacks. I, too, remember there being just gobs of time to throw last year. Your conformation is worth a lot.
We’ll have an authoritative answer to that question soon enough. Cutler is going to spend 16 games getting harrassed next year. People who don’t live in Chicago have no idea how backwards and unskilled the Bears’ offense is…..
by Chibronx on Apr 10, 2009 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No argument
Mind a few questions? I noticed that Chicago brought in Pace, who I admit is on the downside of his career, but who might be an upgrade over Tait and St. Clair. I like Chris Williams, who I understand will start at right tackle. They also brought in Keven Schaeffer, from Cleveland.
At guard they did land Frank Omiyale from Carolina. He replaced Josh Beekman at guard, who, I’ve heard, was playing out of position. What do you think on this? How much has the line improved?
By the way, I like Matt Forte, but since Chicago’s rushing attack was far below the Broncos, I’m not sure that this will help Cutler. Do you see them going after help in the running game?
And finally, I know that Earl Bennett didn’t catch a pass last year, but they seem to be high on him as coming on and helping Cutler. How do you see the passing game? I’m sure that Smith will add some form of vertical game, but since Forte led the team in receiving last year and Cutler generally doesn’t like checkdowns, I’m not sure if this is a good match. Thoughts? Thanks. I’m guilty of being constantly full of Qs, so feel free to use mhrtales@gmail.com to reply if this is too long.
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s have the discussion here. I’m sure we’re not the only folks interested in what awaits QB no-chin in the 2009 season.
I think the issues have less to do with line play and more to do with the “skill” positions and the team’s offensive scheming. Chris Williams looked pretty good last year, so there’s plenty to like there. Orlando Pace will probably be an upgrade, but, you know, age, injuries. etc. I admittedly have less opinion on the interior linemen. Even if the line improves considerably, it’s still going to be an enormous step down from the extraordinary pass-blocking he had last year.
The Bears habitually overvalue their running backs (see: Anthony Thomas) and think Matt Forte is great (I think he’s pretty good). Considering the number of picks they shipped off for Cutler and the pathalogical cheapness of the McCaskey family (to say nothing of the aging and suddenly ineffective defense), I’d be shocked if they went after running-game help.
That leaves the receivers, and man is it ugly. Let’s start with Earl Bennet. What kind of team gets excited about a rookie who didn’t catch a pass? Given the extent to which Jay-C locks onto his buddies, he’ll probably get enough looks to get some numbers, but efficiency-wise, it’s a nightmare. The talk of the town is that Cutler will instantly make Devin Hester an all-pro (just as he supposedlyl turned the utterly pedestrian Marshall and Royal into great receivers). Hester looks lost in the receiving game; the decision to take one of history’s great special-teams players and make him a mediocre wideout is just embarrassing.
Everyone thinks Cutler will make an all-pro out of Greg Olsen (who’s admittedly very good), but I think they’re confusing the player with the scheme. Shanny’s game plans have always emphasized the tight ends. The Bears could do that, of course, but that’s easier said than done.
I think you point to a more fundamental problem with Matt Forte. He led them team in receptions (albeit not in yards) last year. Maybe Ron Turner will convince Cutler to check down a lot. Like a lot of people, I have trouble seeing it. Think about it: Cutler wanted out of Denver after they got rid of pass-wacky Jeremy Bates. Josh McDaniels was an affront to him, but he’s OK with an offense in which three of the top four receivers aren’t wideouts?
The irony here is that I’ve been wanting the Broncos to get the RBs more involved in the passing game for a long time. Everyone in Chicago is eager for the bombs-away approach. If those are the goals, everyone is going to come away happy.
by Chibronx on Apr 10, 2009 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bare ruined choirs, where late the sweet birds sang...
Maybe Ron Turner will convince Cutler to check down a lot.
I wish him well with that. See Colinski’s discussion above – it’s been tried. But, with less options, perhaps that will work out. BTW, nice irony on the ‘pedestrian’ Marshall and Royal….
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would we waste picks to trade for him?
I think we can draft better players to make the whole team better. Trading for Quinn just seems irrational right now. I like what I see at QB suited up in Bronco uniforms today. A late round QB pick up…. yeah maybe if it was late round or CFA.
Seriously if I had to choose who to have, I think I would stick with Orton even it if was a trade straight across. Then considering $$ involved… it is a no brainer. I am also a pretty big fan of Simms. Tough sucker – wants to play and has good skills. Still having trouble figuring out why we would ever want to trade for Quinn now that we have two capable “team first” starters on board now?
Treeridge… don’t mean to offend. All ideas are welcome. Welcome to the MHR family.
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 10, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm.....KO is better than Bardy Quinn...no question...once again lets not get carried away with potential. Potential got 17 - 20 as a starter and a choke with 3 games in hand. I will take KO over any QB with potential. Intangibles alone, Orton brings more
to the table.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
by boydy2669 on Apr 10, 2009 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Orton should be the guy.
I agree there is no comparison between Orton and Quinn or the kid out of USC. Orton hasn’t even come close to reaching his potential. Anyone who watched him at Purdue knows there is a tremendous amount of upside in Orton. It was no small feat for Orton to lead the Bears to nine wins considering the talent around him and their ridiculous offensive scheme. Orton is perfect for the Bronco’s new offense and has four years of experience at playing in the spread offense under Joe Tiller. It was 95% out of the shotgun too.
by rocko1 on Apr 10, 2009 5:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Graham Harrell or Chase Daniels
anyone know where they’re projected to be drafted? Wouldn’t mind us using a 5th on one of them. I know they’re system QB’s but isn’t that what we’re looking for?
by trumanj on Apr 10, 2009 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
below / DraftScout on them
Chase Daniel at #428 (way into the FA range)
Graham Harrell at #257, just outside the drafted players. I don’t buy Cooney & DraftScout’s opinion on him though. Wright is much closer on him as a mid-rounder. We’ll see.
by Colinski on Apr 10, 2009 6:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a question...
Isn’t Denver’s RPG average supposed to be 5.15, and New England’s 3.4 (instead of 10.3 and 13.6)?
"All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players."
by Tempestuous Binary on Apr 10, 2009 2:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that and was going to mention it
The RPGs were added instead of averaged.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Apr 10, 2009 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the catch and heads-up, guys...
That is embarrassing!!! I’ve corrected it, much appreciation.
by Douglas A. Lee on Apr 10, 2009 6:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This series will go down as one of the best for MHR.
You guys have done it again. Bravo (and rec’d)!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 10, 2009 2:58 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
The shallow cross
The pattern you were noticing Welker run sounds like the shallow cross a staple of run-n-gun and spread offenses. While it takes time to develop it is virtually impossible to defend if the offense has time. That’s the pattern that Eddie scored the TD and 2pt conversion against SD on. Actually on the 2pt I felt like cutler threw it a bit early but it worked anyway. I expect to see that play a whole lot with Royal, Stokley and Marshall running it.
BTW: another fantastic installment. Can’t wait for more. We should re-run the whole series again next summer before the season starts!
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 10, 2009 3:38 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes...
This post is so well written…one of the best reads ever! How AWESOME is it to talk about football, real, actual football, instead of all the other crap that’s been going around. This post has gotten me so excited; I wish the season started tomorrow. Well doen and rec’d.
by BroncoJeff on Apr 10, 2009 3:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Loving the series... tyrannosaurus rec'd
Great collaborative effort, guys. Thanks a bunch.
by CoastalBronco on Apr 10, 2009 4:00 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent post as always fellas....Rec'd!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
by boydy2669 on Apr 10, 2009 4:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Always a pleasure, boyd.
I’m looking forward to your next one, too.
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto
Nice input from you too Chi
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on Apr 10, 2009 4:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Tommy Brandstater
out of fresno is eather a mid day 2 pick and scouting reports tend to say he could be good but needs coaching and IMHO McD is the guy that can bring out the potential in him, ive seen a good number of his games and the dude is a gamer, “Brandstater is an intelligent player with good size. He is a smooth ball handler and slides well in the pocket. Showing good poise and pocket presence, he has good (not great) arm strength but is accurate on short-to-mid range passes. He has shown good touch, but he has sloppy mechanics. Also, his lack of accuracy on deep passes is a concern and he needs to show more patience when he is going through progressions. Brandstater tends to telegraph some passes. He needs more consistency. Not being overly athletic, he struggles with pre-snap reads so he needs coaching.” -fftoolbox.com
free special ed.
by Swissy14 on Apr 10, 2009 4:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I like him
I have my reservations about taking a QB after the top 2 or 3 AND before late in the draft. I’ll take Sanchez if he falls to #12 (perhaps) but don’t give me any of the QBs in the middle. It just seems to be a waste of a useful draft pick. I’d rather wait till later and take someone like Brandstater, etc.
I’ve seen a DrafTek simulation that had us taking Bomar in the 3rd and I don’t like the idea. I’d rather see re-enter the FA market next year than employ a half solution this year. We’re going to have to wait for the right QB. We can take a late round flyer but it’s all or nothing at this point. I don’t mind grooming a developmental project but I don’t see many that are worth grooming this year.
by Colinski on Apr 10, 2009 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
one more thing...
the nock that manny reports have on the kid is “he is not a threat to run” but i have seen Brandstater run the ball, and the thought that he cant run seemes fabricated, ive seen him run the ball and when he runs, he pounds on defenders with his size
free special ed.
by Swissy14 on Apr 10, 2009 4:37 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent job once again
I have one minor nitpick, if you don’t mind me pointing it out.
Notice that in 2006-2007, New England’s passes to tight ends dropped from 81, the same number that Scheffler and Graham together caught, to 48, then 31, starting in 2007. Why? It might be because Randy Moss, a far better target, came to town. Then, the following year, they acquired Wes Welker.
Randy Moss and Wes Welker were both acquired in 2007. If we had Randy Moss in 2006… well, let’s just say I’d bet more money on Moss making the catches than Reche Caldwell back in that AFC Championship game we lost.
Other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece. You guys clearly put a lot of time and effort into this.
by NESilver on Apr 10, 2009 4:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Raw number versus percentages are always helpful in analysis. I was thinking the same thing; having a lower percentage of a bigger pie can still be more. And having superior targets makes it hard to pass up the opportunity to take the (relatively) sure thing.
However, it is a game of discipline, and there’s a game-theoretic advantage to spreading the wealth to lesser used receivers. I love Cutler’s arm but we needed to involve more people in the passing game last year.
by Colinski on Apr 10, 2009 5:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I had that wrong – should have caught it when I was looking at their numbers. Thanks!
And, nice to see you back, NESilver. Stop by for Conclusions on Tuesday!
Hillis in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 10, 2009 6:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not nitpicking
We’re going for accuracy here, and apologize for that snafu. Thanks, NES for the catch – it’s appreciated!
by Douglas A. Lee on Apr 11, 2009 6:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just keeps getting better and better
No wonder fans of other teams keep stopping by. The level of discourse is so high and the articles are amazingly in-depth. When I visit other blogsites (rarely) it’s like entering a Dead Zone. Nice people, but there’s nothing going on. MHR is where the action is. Some observations:
I remember seeing a play very much like the Welker reception you mentioned — it might have been in the first Oakland game. Royal ran across the field just beyond the line of scrimmage from left to right, got the ball clear of the linebacker who was chasing him, and cut up the right sideline for a nice gain. I was surprised we didn’t use it more during the season.
Bear, it’s interesting that you think the sack totals had more to do with the O-lines than the quarterbacks vis a vis Denver and New England. I think Chicago’s line is definitely going to be better this year than last, but nowhere near as good as ours. Orton is going to think he’s died and gone to heaven. And Cutler, who as you pointed out managed to throw picks even with superb protection, isn’t going to have that kind of security blanket in Chicago. I was really encouraged by Ted‘s comment on how much Orton’s touch has improved on his deep throws. I think some of the Chicago fans who were here the other day tended to compare Orton in 2005 to Jay in 2008. I was surprised (and disappointed) at how inaccurate Jay often was when he lofted the ball on intermediate and deep routes.
McDaniels’ system obviously puts a premium on intelligence, especially at the skill positions, otherwise it’s going to confuse the Broncos more than the opposition. It shows in the running backs he’s acquired, and it suggests to me that Royal is going to be sensational in it, because he’s both intelligent and extremely well prepared. Speaking of preparation, the fact that McDaniels “had a 6 hour presentation ready for Ellis and Bowlen in less than a week” might have impressed Bowlen as much as the presentation itself, because as we know preparation, preparation, preparation is the sine qua non of a successful head coach.
Your statement, “As you can see, the Broncos and Patriots had very similar passing distributions in two areas — fullback and wide receiver,” was at first confusing, because there was no such statistic in any of the tables. And the subsequent reference to Denver throwing to the RB 10.7% of the time and New England 18.9% of the time only compounded the confusion, because that’s not what the table said, until I realized that the percentages for RB and FB were combined. Breaking them out — FB 3.6%, RB 10.7%, TE 23.0% for Denver, and 3.4%, 18.9%, and 15.3% for New England — clarifies the contrast in Denver’s and New England’s tendencies. The FB is in certain respects more like a tight end than a running back. Both block and also catch passes. Combining FB with TE we get 10.7% and 26.6% for runners vs blockers for Denver, and 18.9 and 18.7 for New England. Denver had a marked preference for blockers/receivers over running backs/receivers, whereas New England valued them (as receivers) equally. Hillis, like Royal, is going to thrive under McDaniels.
As you can see your article really made me think. You and nycbroncosfan have done a remarkable job in putting together this series. This is the sort of thing that has made MHR the preeminent football site in the SBN universe. GO BRONCOS!
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Apr 10, 2009 5:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
great work you guys!
I really enjoyed your work, excellent post! I can honestly say I can’t wait for McD to get a few seasons under his belt because I am tired of the word Patriots!
Don’t let that deter you from my kudos however!
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast
by Steve O' on Apr 10, 2009 5:34 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You guys rock.
This is incredible stuff. I agree on the tight ends thing too- Why would you throw to TE’s when the guys you have there have butterfingers?
I seem to have lost my future self.
by papigrande on Apr 10, 2009 8:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW!!!!
THANKS BUNCHES!!! Incredibly great stuff!!! Get EXCITED, Go BRONCOS!!!
by Pmac54 on Apr 11, 2009 12:57 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
the Patriots’ style is that they are constantly probing, pushing, and looking for a weakness.
Just like the raptors in Jurassic park :)
by mikebirty on Apr 11, 2009 1:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What a great series
I have really appreciated all the work that went into these analysis. What a treasure of information and insight!
I believe that this will be a most interesting year for this team and their success will be determined only by how soon they are able to assimilate all the changes on both sides of the ball and translate the schemes into effective performances.
I look for them to be a bit irratic in the early games. But McDaniels has shown a tremendouse ability to adjust both personnel and scheme to correct mistakes and meet week to week and quarter to quarter challenges.
I am looking forward to this season more than I have any other in recent memory.
"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 1 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987
by AlanC on Apr 11, 2009 9:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW, thanks for the analysis.
I am totally loving this series and really appreciate all the work that you guys put into this. This really helps me get a better feel for McD.
I really can’t wait for training camp to start so we can see how things are really going.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
by weazel on Apr 12, 2009 12:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

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