Need a NT, look to the offense in this year's draft.
by Broncoman on Apr 18, 2009 1:50 PM MDT
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As the draft quickly approaches, all of us here at the MHR realize that for a 3-4 defense to be effective, one needs to have a strong NT that can demand a double team. This year’s draft is rather slim in potential NT with BJ Raji, Ron Brace, and Samie Lee Hill leading the charge as the best true NT prospects. Raji appears to have some serious commitment flaws in that he may or may not have failed a drug test (although widely believed that he did), Ron Brace looks to be a capable player, but may never be that true dominant NT, and while Hill has a lot of the physical aspects you would like, he would be a project at best at this point. While my personnel opinion is that Denver would be better off waiting until next year to spend a top draft pick on a NT (when the crop looks to be much better and more talented) or hope that Vince Wolfork becomes available or maybe Gabe Watson, the Broncos may want to look at the other side of the ball this year and convert an O-lineman to NT. There are several intriguing candidates that could likely be had with a 5th round pick or later and may turn out to be better long term prospects than this year’s crop, and conversely cost the Broncos a lot less if they don’t work out. Some of the candidates include:
via pictopia.com
Herman Johnson – OG – LSU, 6-7, 368 lbs. Johnson has the distinction of being the largest baby ever born in LSU and an all SEC performer at guard for the Tigers the past two years. Johnson is in an interesting predicament in that he is seen as a tweener in that he lacks lateral quickness to play Tackle but has the body of a tackle. My suggestion, switch him to NT, here is a brief scouting report:
Johnson is a monstrous lineman that controls the interior of the offensive line. He's quick off the snap and initiates contact immediately. He’s a force up front who mauls the opposition and is versatile enough to play the tackle position. He displays strong technique and has good footwork. He shows great patience in the trenches, explodes into the defender, and delivers a devastating punch. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com
Matt Slauson – OG – Nebraska, 6-5, 335lbs. Slauson is another in a long line of corn feed cornhusker O-lineman. Slauson again is somewhat of a tweener who has a tackle body but lacks the lateral movement of to become a good tackle. Nebraska lineman also typically struggle to adjust to the NFL pass blocking requirements and a move to the other side of the ball where he can use his leg drive, strength, and power on every play may be the best fit.
Phil Loadholt – OT- Oklahoma, 6-8, 343lbs. Loadholt is a native of Fountain, Colorado and one would hope a Bronco fan, but who knows. That aside, Loadholt will likely be a very effective RT in a power run offense like New York; however, RT are not quite in the same demand as LT. Here is a brief scouting report on Loadholt:
Loadholt is a huge, monstrous tackle who can shed the opposition away with ease. He stays square to the opposition, has good technique and uses his brute strength to his advantage to knock defenders off their rush. He's a strong run-blocker who drives the opposition off the line and finishes his blocks until the whistle blows. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com
Obviously any of these options would be a project, but the very low risk with the fact that if nothing else you may gain a back-up O-lineman if it doesn’t work out, seems like a better option than risking a high round pick on someone like Raji that may be looking at a suspension early, and tying a huge amount of money up in him.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Very interesting idea, Broncoman!
Some of those guys definitely seem like natural space-eaters at the very least.
Now bear with me, because I should probably know this, but has this sort of thing (converting an OT to a NT) been done before in the league?
More importantly, has it been done successfully?
Broncoman,
I like your thinking.
This is the type of outside the box study that I hope Xanders, Nolan and McDaniels are doing.
My question to someone like Styg, HT, Bear, SWG or TB maybe able to tell us how hard it would to be able to convert to NT from OG or OT.
I can see there being issues, but not MASSIVE issues.
A guys like Loadholt or Johnsosn with their body types might be an advantage straight off the bat.
Rec’d mate and hopefully one of our knowledgable guys could get back to us!
Excellent job.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 18, 2009 1:57 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I must respectfully disagree
Herman Johnson and Phil Loadholt would be bad fits at NT.
Johnson and Loadholt both lack lateral quickness. Thus will only be straight ahead type NT who don’t make plays unless the runner is right next to them.
Additionally, the name of the NT game is leverage. At 6’7" & 6’8", neither Johnson or Loadholt play with good leverage. That would be a major disadvantage, since OL can just get under them and push. That’s the single reason they’re falling as OL, so as NT they’d look like 6ht or 7th rounders
Plus I’m not sure where that scout sees Herman Johnson’s good feet, but he was constantly beat at the Senior Bowl by DTs with any kind of speed. He looked as slow as a statue and that’s the fault of slow feet. He lets his feet get set and doesn’t stay on his toes.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
I think you have to look at it in a way that they are or would be projects
Yes they lack lateral mobility, but a NT doesn’t really need to be that laterally mobile, he needs to be able to win in a phone booth. Both of the guys are not as “stout” as say Brace or Raji, but both have frames to add more mass and still have leverage and power, just an idea.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
This kind of thinking
and discussion is what makes this place great! Thank you all!
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
Agree with Randall...
on this one. Most D linemen take 2-3 years to really develop in the NFL anyway, even when it is their natural position. Taking someone who has never played the position simply because they have size will potentially increase the development time a couple more years. In the next five years, with several first rounders, we should be able to get a stud NT. Use draft pikcs on players we really expect to help the team.
I agree
There are tons of people fit to play in the NFL. But you need experience and practice ect. for years. These Linemen havve been around football but would be huge projects…take a few years. High risk and whats the reward? Seems like a low chance of making a stud. So high risk/ low chance reward. IMO
I think we might hit the jackpot sooner if we take a more true NT
and coach & train him to get better
Great debate....very intriguing! But...
We need to find a very serviceable NT this in the later picks….BUT, next year that monstrous kid “Mt Cody” out of Alabama will come out, and with another year of experience. Oh, he’s only 6’5, 375lbs! He’ll be top 10 for sure! This year, I like to get Hill in the 5th!
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
Agree on Mt Cody..
Anyone watch the Crimson and White game today?
Cody looked great. Looks like he’s lost more weight, probably down to the 350lbs or so that Nick Saban wanted him at.
His best play; he ran down a running back on a stretch play and made the tackle in the open field. That my friends is extremely impressive for a man his size.
He still needs to play with better leverage, but his feet improved a lot over the off-season. He was able to maintain his balance a lot better and not allow the O-lineman to move him laterally which is how most teams attacked him last year.
Another Alabama name to keep an eye on is ILB Rolando McClain. 6’4", 250lbs, he’s a huge presence against the run, with or without the Mountain in front of him.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
I agree with getting someone like Cody or Suh next year in the 1st
Which was the basic point, but I think you could look at converting a few good drive guys from OG to NT, rather than reach for Raji or Brace this year.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
+1
If either Raji or Brace are there when we pick – Raji at 12 or Brace in the second I say we take them…. However, I don’t want us reaching to get them either. I like the idea of some tryouts for NT with some big boys. The O-line men know what the NT do. They prepare every game to defend against it. I don’t think it is a huge jump. Hopefully the Bears tank this year and that next years 1st is a top 5pick and we can get Mt Cody.
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 18, 2009 9:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Isn't that a little like saying
that a good batter should make a good pitcher because they prepare against it every day.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 19, 2009 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Not really, I think it is more like saying someone could transition between outfield and infield
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Intriguing!
Love your out-of-the-box thinking, B-man! Great work here!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
I never would of though of that...Broncoman, you should email the Broncos coaching staff about your idea.
I would be sooooooooo happy if the Broncos did what you’re talking about. I really don’t want to see a player like Raji be a super BUST!!! Great post and Rec’d.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
Probably worth a late round pick
After a year or so on the Practice Squad they should be able to make the switch. If not, no great loss to have a late pick not make the team. Rec’d
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
Curious idea Broncoman but I have the same question as Shoemaker
Some of those guys definitely seem like natural space-eaters at the very least.
Now bear with me, because I should probably know this, but has this sort of thing (converting an OT to a NT) been done before in the league?
More importantly, has it been done successfully?
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
I suppose its possible that several of them were at one time DTs
Clady converted from the defense to the offense at Boise State.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
That was going to be my post
I think that traditionally the thought had been to convert from defense to offense, but I don’t see why you could not reverse the idea, I look for a guy with a great short area burst who can win in a phone boot and stand up to a double team, I think there may be some prospects in this years draft that fit the bill.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Really good post Broncoman...very different cuisine for thought.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
I found where it was done in college,
his name was Braun, but don’t know anything other than that. I would think that a defense to offense player would have an easier time of transition then an offense to defense, because of the foot work involved, and the sluffing off a block to tackle. But I supose anything is possible..
by bfree2bronc on Apr 19, 2009 11:36 PM MDT up reply actions
The weights are right, but the height
Most effective NT’s are under 6’5" tall because you need leverage to move the OLinemen.
Rubin Carter and Don Latimer were both in the 6’0" to 6’1" range and where Carter was a wrestler with a very explosive first step that caused problems, Latimer was a beast who was slower and stronger. John Grant was an excellent backup to Carter because he was LB fast, but small at 6’3" and only 235. His thing was speed and tenacity, but only in short bursts because of his lack of size.
The most effective thing to do would be to draft Sammie Hill and Vaughn Martin to team with Fields in a rotation from 3/4 to 4/3. Hill and Martin would be projects, but less of a project than a converted OLineman. They have played defense, and both are around 320+ pounds with excellent speed. If we are to have an effective defense we need a first team and second team rotation to keep our guys fresh and the opponent a bit off their guard and hopefully exhausted in the fourth quarter.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
We played Fountian
in the playoffs the year my HS won the state title. I remember Loadholt he’s absolutely huge. He did play defense back then, I don’t think he could make the transition at the next level. I remember when we were watching film he played well on the O line but was very lazy and easy to block on D. He’s too tall our smaller lineman were able to dominate him at the line.
Not a bad idea to try though. It would be interesting to see if we could find a conversion project like this, it may be the best way to find a NT in this years draft.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
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