Report: Moss and Crowder on the Block
by NFL Junky on Apr 22, 2009 11:31 AM MDT
80 comments
We all knew that McD was changing it up on D this year, but I have to admit that this little piece of news surprised me over at NFP. In a post about KC trying to move down in the draft, it says that the Broncos are actively shopping Tim Crowder and Jarvis Moss.
I am not really sure if there is much value for either player, but if there's one constant this year, it's change.
I still have to question whether a late round pick (which is my estimate of their worth) is enough to let these guys go. But apparently McD doesn't see them in the Broncos future.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
0 recs |
80 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Doesn't really surprise me
I doubted that either would even make the team this year, both are 4-3 ends, and will struggle to switch to a 3-4 OLB, I am not convinced that DJ and WW are best suited as ILB, I much rather have DJ/WW on the edge, and then have Larsen and Maualuga in the middle, you could draft a decent OLB later in the draft to be a pass rushing specialist.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
I'm not completely surprised either
Especially considering the scheme change, but you have to look pretty bad in one mini camp to already be on the block.
I think it really is a numbers game rather than looking "bad"
Moss and Crowder are both getting paid relatively high dollars and likely won’t even make the team or start if they do, right now I would guess they are 3rd or 4th on the depth chart and they are basically learning a new position. So cost wise, the Broncos should probably move them now so they don’t have their slaries on the books for next season if they aren’t going to make the team or have them riding the bench learning the position.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
on the first reply
why the hell does it move my reply?! arrgghh!
taste my blintzkrieg!
2009-year of the defense.
If these two
were entering this year’s draft though, wouldn’t they be in the mix of OLB’s such as Ayers, Maybin, Sitntim, Orakpo, etc…
So what I’m saying is if we take one of these guys, wouldn’t we pretty much be getting the same thing?
Kind of dissapointing really, One would think Moss especially would be a perfect fit as an OLB rush specialist.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
I hated the J moss pick from the get go.
Whenever you have a DB (Foxworth 22 reps) putting up more reps on the bench press than a DE (Moss 20 reps) you know it can’t be good. He has been on ice skates his whole time in the NFL.
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
Hmmm...
That USC punter makes almost every player in this draft class useless based on bench press reps…
"The mystic chords of fandom, stretching from every trade and signing to every active account and guest all over this broadband, will yet swell the chorus of union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature". ~ Abraham Lincoln-ish
"The tree of victory must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of quarterbacks and coaches". ~ Thomas Jefferson-ish
In all fairness, he is a kicker, not punter
But he also runs a faster 40 time than most of the prospects as well. And at 6-2, 225lbs, I think he could play safety in the NFL.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
forget about bench reps
There’s some use in this metric but it’s mostly misunderstood by fans. In particular, long arms make it much harder to put up high reps, so some of the long-armed participants at the Combine may not have fared quite as well but they’re still quite strong. I’m more interested in hearing about leg strength in prospective DLs for a 3-4. And also for some of the RBs.
I’m not completely discounting the importance of bicep strength for some positions but people’s perception of what constitutes and adequate number of lifts tends to be off. SEE the MHR resource on this subject.
Tyson Jackson only lifted 225lbs 20 times at his Pro day and it had me a little concerned until I went back and looked at the ranges (he had a injury problem, too). Moss’ 20 lifts wasn’t at unusual considering his size and weight. Neither of these players would be considered weak in any sense, and we can always put them on a weight training regimen if we think they need it. The problem is that it’s only indirectly related to being good at what they do.
BTW — it’s not Moss’ upper body that concerns people; it’s his lower body and lack of pass rushing moves. He’s still quite young and inexperienced (as in hasn’t yet developed), however.
20 reps is fine,
like you said C, and leg strength, plus fexability. Even Ian Johnson did 26 and he’s a RB, needed to bounce off tacklers…
other keys
Flexibility is key and it has no metric.
I like seeing the interior DLs for the 3-4 (both DE34 & NT) show that they have the leg strength to anchor but Moss is not in this category. And Moss came into the Combine underweight because his health problems so the 20 reps for a 6’6 guy weighing ~250 lbs wasn’t even a bad showing.
We want long arms for DEs and OTs (Clady’s are extraordinarily long) but it makes it hard for them to do the bench. I was quite happy to see Mayock explain this during the Combine this year.
I’ve referred to the BP as the workout warrior metric, although there is some value to it. The odd thing is that training that emphasizes the high end lift is what we don’t want them to do, so we’re rewarding them for bad training practices. What we should really have them emphasize is Plyometrics.
Small note
bench press primarily targets the chest, though your point about longer arms is absolutely true. I remember back in high school there was a kid who owned every record in his weight class for power and olympic lifts, which was the 98 lb class. He was only about 4 and half feet tall, and his leverage in his lifts was amazing. At 6’ tall I had charged myself with the goal of staying ahead of him in the lifts in each category, which I just barely managed in every lift but bench press, where he, to be blunt, totally smoked me, benching over 300lbs.
Overall he was amazing, squatting 400+, benching 300+, power clean and jerk 350+, snatch 250+. What he had was leverage, what he lacked was POWER. When it came to speed, acceleration, and momentum over distance, he wasn’t even close to me. The upshot? He was suited to wrestling, I was suited to track. But neither of us studied or played football, and neither was qualified for it because of that.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 22, 2009 10:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Sigh...
It seems like only yesterday that we gave up a million picks to get them… Oh Shanny, you character you.
I am still bitter about that draft.
How do you enter a draft with 9 picks, and leave it with only two solid contributors (Harris and Thomas)? If there’s one reason I hate Shanny the GM, it’s because we easily could’ve had Mason Crosby in orange and blue, and instead we bet the farm to move up for Moss and Thomas.
We had 4 picks that year I believe.
Does anyone else remember having 9 picks in the 2007 draft?
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
We had more than 4
I remember we traded up for both Moss and Thomas, I am not sure how many picks we had going in, but it was more than 4
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
I'm must be going a little crazy.
It looks like we had seven picks: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 2 6’s, and a 7th.
We moved the 1st, 3rd, and one 6th to move up for Moss, and moved the 6th and 7th to hop back in the 4th and grab Thomas. I don’t know where our 5th rounder went.
Oh man
You had to bring up that sore point… I’m still pissed about Mason. He’ll be a top 3 kicker in the NFL for the next 15 years.
by AllBroncsallday on Apr 22, 2009 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry
As a CU grad who was at CU when Mason was the best player on the team, I feel your pain. The fact that we could have grabbed him with a 7th rounder is something that I may never get over.
one man's treasure is another man's cast-off
Seems to be the way things work; also, continue to remember that some coaches and GMs refer to this week as “liars” week; I wouldn’t trust reports that anyone is being shopped unless it’s supported by a quote from Coach McD, GM X or Mr. B.
I vote to add a "REPORT" to the title.
This seems like a rumor to me, and I’m not certain that it’s based in solid fact. I wouldn’t be surprised if we dealt either of them though, as I think Elvis Dumervil will be our elephant guy. His size is comparative to James Harrison of Pittsburgh, and he has the quickness and power to be a very effective standing up edge rusher. I think that Doom can get 15 sacks in this system.
I could be dead wrong, but I just don’t see the same potential in Moss or Crowder. I think that if we could get a package of picks for them and shore up that d-line, I would be happy.
I seem to have lost my future self.
I certainly hope so papi,
because these guys haven’t even had a chance to prove themselves yet. I had high hopes for Moss, and the injuries hurt. Do you think Moss and Tyson Jackson resemble each other a little?
I think McD sees the upside in Moss and Crowder and will give them until thru mini camps!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
I agree.
If he was going to dump them they would be gone by now and replaced with other low cost project players.
I’m sure they are fishing to see what they can get because these guys are question marks, but only to see if they can get a bigger bite than what they see as an upside for them. It also creates more smoke before the draft.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
Thanks!
This is a good find but it helps to put it in context.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 22, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Good point papi
Does Bunting have a history of reliability on these speculative issues?
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
A first and second rounder....I just hope we get something of value for these two. :(
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
I'm with you Zappa,
I gave so much for them we should get some compensation for them. Maybe trade them both for a 1st this year and a 2nd or 3rd next?
Highly doubtful
I would say you may get lucky and get a 4th rounder for Moss, not sure what you could get fro Crowder, maybe some used cleats.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
It all depends on their *percieved* value around the league,
which is probably VERY LOW since neither has really done anything worthwhile as of yet. If we could get a 3rd for both I would be surprised. More likely they will be cut or traded for a 5th to 7th each.
I think that pretty much everyone on the team is potentially 'on the block'.
The only players that I think are 100% safe are the two Ryans.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
are all on the block.
For the right price.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Especially,
Marshall, DJ, Doom , and Champ.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Because
they actually have some value.
Those others he named would bring about nothing back in return.
by Elway's Ghost on Apr 22, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions
exactly.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions
And because...
Marshall is a walking legal problem; however, I wouldn’t be surprised to see AZ make a move for him in a deal involving Boldin.
Champ is coming off two mediocre, injury-ridden seasons. Another subpar season would only further diminish his market value. And a team that might think they’re only a solid CB away from making a run might be willing to bid high for him.
DJ and Doom are both solid players that may not be great fits in Nolan’s defense.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Royal is probably relatively safe too.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Who'd have thunk
at the end of last season that we’d need to tear it all down and start from ground zero?
I didn’t (and still don’t) think it was necessary (or even wise).
Love to be proven wrong though . . .
by Elway's Ghost on Apr 22, 2009 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Sometimes though
you have to break it down. When I used to teach people how to bowl you would often have to get them to stop doing everything they were doing and start from scratch. Even when they would bowl a 150 or 180 on average. Once you had built them back up however, with new technique and approach, they could bowl in the 200s.
I think this analogy holds and I hope it plays out for Denver.
Might as well trade the front office while we are in the mood
Hopefully McX have some trade value. Krazy Al got Tampa Bay to give up some sweet draft choices for Jon Gruden, so we might just get lucky and actually get something for our front office.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Apr 22, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, but
we cut the proven talent (Read: The Goodmans) about 3 months ago.
by Elway's Ghost on Apr 22, 2009 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
yep...too late.
We already fired the FO.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 22, 2009 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Aaarghhhh!!! Are you telling me that the current FO
has no trade value? Say it ain’t so Joe :(
Just for the heck of it, does anyone have a metric that could set a range of value for a trade involving Shanny with the Goodmans as a throw in?
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Apr 22, 2009 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Goodmans
had one good draft and we don’t even know how responsible they were for that draft. Was it Sundquist or the Goodmans who dreamed up the 2007 draft? Was it the Goodmans or the scouting department that produced the 2008 draft? I think if PB believed that the Goodmans were solely responsible for the results of the 2008 draft he would have acted differently.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 22, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree that is the optomistic view.
And I too hope that is what happens.
Sometimes though, what is torn down just stays torn down.
by Elway's Ghost on Apr 22, 2009 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
the defense has been so bad
addition by subtraction
i can’t wait for Cutler to blow the Bears’ playoff hopes this year
Want to imagine what the right price for Clady would be?
Talk about swimming in draft picks….
Hillis in '09
Better To Trade
Better to trade them and get something for them than to cut them and get nothing. Biggest mistake I think teams make is holding onto guys instead of selling high. I know in this case it doesn’t seem like much but it is better than nothing.
I think the underlying tone here
is that we couldn’t get anything for Moss or Crowder right now. Not even a seventh rounder. Sad.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Disappointing
This would be a waste of some solid talent (1st and 2nd round). During our failed attempt to run a 3-4 last season, I remember Moss looking rather agile running down plays laterally. I think he has great ability in open space and would at least make a solid backup as a OLB. To trade him now would be a waste. If he doesn’t show promise after the season, we can cut him, but I find it hard to believe that the mid to late round pick we could get for him would net us a prospect as good as Moss. Remember, he has dealt with some really bizarre injuries and has not really gotten on the field. In order to get talent of his level we would have to use 1-3 round picks, which could be spent on other areas of need this year while we determine if any of our OLB are keepers. I find it hard to believe that out of B Bailey, W Woodyard, J Moss, E Dumervil, Reid, Crowder, DJ (if outside) we cannot find at least two starters. To overdraft here would be a mistake. One of the advantages of the 3-4 is that linebackers are easily to come by, and one can scheme based on the available players. That said, I see less potential in Crowder as a OLB, and more as a DE, but think he should be given time. I think we should focus on getting D-Line prospects, an ILB (Brinkley?), and a DB or two before OLB, which I think we should try to make do for 1 year while we see what we have.
by orangeandblueblood7 on Apr 22, 2009 2:08 PM MDT reply actions
I think is is all rumors
just more stuff that comes out before the draft that never happens
by gnarlybroncodude on Apr 22, 2009 3:46 PM MDT reply actions
It may just be rumors
But with a new regime, and a scheme change, I really think we are going to be actively moving around on draft day. Crowder and Moss may not go, but if there names are being tossed out there, it makes me think that we could use them in packages to move up/down the draft.
I will be very surprised if we simply sit at all of our picks and take what comes to us, though that’s what I hope we do with 12 and 18.
I still trying to figure out where Wes Bunting "learned" from???
Learned, source, insider, outsider, who in the world knows…
If you ever find out that answer ?
Tell me ! … Also find out who Steve Atwater… Ronnie Lott ….and ..Dennis Smith learned from.
by broncosfaninphilly on Apr 22, 2009 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree....
All the tearing down talk doesn’t really hold weight. It seems like that’s the case but it’s really not. Moss and Crowder hardly represent core players and ideal talent. They may not have seen a lot of action but if the guy who drafted them wouldn’t even start them, why the heck would McD? I think McD is just parting with expensive dead weight. If he were tearing down, the O line would be gone, Bailey, Williams, all of em would be gone.
It is a sign of a weak leader when he can't get value from the talent
that he inherits. The unresloved question with Moss and Crowder is whether or not they have talent and if so, what value in terms of draft choices/players they have. I hope that both of them make the team, I will continue to say that it takes SEVERAL years to develop D-linemen. Now that they will be moonlighting as LBs they need to be given the time to make the adjustment.
I am still mad that Hayward wasn’t retained. It took years for him to get big enough and skilled enough to make an impact, the only problem is that the impact he made only benefitted Jacksonville. I don’t want to see the same mistake made with Moss and Crowder.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Apr 22, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions
You don’t bring in someone to fix a bad defense and then say you have to keep everything the way it was. That makes no sense. Obviously something wasn’t working in the first place.
Yes, the D was sieveish, but does that justify dumping
young talent? Obviously, the 64K question is whether the young players are “talent” or just young players who were drafted too high. Their value could be easily gauged before the draft by what other teams are willing to offer. I wouldn’t be surprised to see at least one of them go just based on the numbers game at rush LB.
As for weak leaders not making the playoffs, if McX don’t make the playoffs does that mean they are weak leaders or that they don’t have enough talent or some combination of the above?
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Apr 22, 2009 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Obviously
the million dollar question is if these guys will pan out or not but don’t jump to the conclusion that because the coach might trade or cut some guys that he is a failure. Tell you what, if he cuts them and they go on to great careers for another team then you have a point.
I would go with combination.
And a BLOODY LUCKY 8-8 team at that!!!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
In most cases and most times you would be right. But I mean that first SD game was something else. Plus the lost games we should have won seemed to be a recurring problem for several years.
Problems I hope we have seen the end of...
Playing way down to “easy win” teams..
the 6 yard pass route on 3-8
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
It wouldn't surprise me....but I would like to see one more year of Moss.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Like in any company, a new manager coming in will be challenged
to rectify to debacle they were presented with…He’ll deal with it efficiently, I supose.
I would still like to see one more year of Moss....
He is an athletic freak that should fit well in a 3-4…………unless his problem is learning—that has been a concern of mine.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Next Game
Web Stuff
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
