Shallow Thoughts & Nearsighted Observations -- 2009 NFL Draft
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 9:42 AM MDT
211 comments
You know, this has been a great weekend for MHR. Our leader got to cover the draft as a credentialed member of the legitimate media, our staff kept the information flowing, and our community contributed thousands of comments and many outstanding Fanposts throughout the two days. It was a triumph for this site, and now I am exhausted. And, yes, it's back to the day job tomorrow, for another five days. Please forgive me if this is a shorter than usual ST&NO, but my eyes hurt and my fingers are tired. Ready..... BEGIN!!!
1. Events like the Draft always seem to bring trolls to our community, which is a model of respect and civility which any sports blog would be envious of. I personally thank all of our regulars who went out of their way to educate these visiting trolls that MHR is different than what they're used to elsewhere. The staff is under marching orders not to engage with trolls, and we try really hard not to. What is impressive is that most members aren't under any such orders, and do the right thing anyway, out of common sense. I applaud this community, but that's nothing new.
Sometimes, people like the guy at right visit our site.....
And we have to remember who we are, and help them understand what MHR is all about. Give yourselves a pat on the back for getting it.
2. Today's Donny Deutsch Big Idea is to Axe ourselves the following question: From the last day of the 2008 season, to now, is there any position group except QB where we are significantly less talented?
Hmmmmmmmmm.......
RB - We're absolutely more talented here than we were on December 28th, and it's not even debatable. Knowshon Moreno is the most talented back we've had since at least Clinton Portis, and some useful guys like J.J. Arrington, Correll Buckhalter, and LaMont Jordan were brought in to compete with Peyton Hillis, Ryan Torain, and Selvin Young for roster spots. That is a lot of talent right there.
WR - Jabar Gaffney is a solid upgrade over Darrell Jackson, and Kenny McKinley has the potential to be a good slot receiver. Also, Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall are a year older, and more experienced. This position is also upgraded.
TE - I liked the Richard Quinn selection for his blocking ability, and I never loved Nate Jackson the way some people do. I'll call this group's quality level neutral though.
OL - I actually liked the selection of Seth Olsen, which puts me in the minority of the staff. Since everybody is back from last season, this is at least neutral, but almost certainly improved, with the expected growth of young players like Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Chris Kuper, Tyler Polumbus, and Kory Lichtensteiger
Front 7 - Good heavens, why didn't the Broncos take any defensive linemen? The world is coming to an end.
Well, first of all, they did. Robert Ayers is a blue-chip talent at DE, who is notable for both his stoutness against the run, and ability to rush the passer. He's not a two-gap player, but he's a tough one-gap player like Luis Castillo. As for the rest, I believe in Marcus Thomas, and I think people are sleeping on Ronald Fields, who is a good player. I also continue to like Kenny Peterson. I don't have any particular reason to believe in Carlton Powell, but I hope he does well, and I did like the Everette Pedescleaux CFA signing. It's too bad there weren't more zero-technique and five-technique players available in the Draft, but you do the best you can with the cards you're dealt.
As for LBs, I liked the Andra Davis signing, and I still think he can be solid inside. I hope D.J. Williams can also, but I really expect him to continue to underwhelm me. (Meaning no change.) I do have high hopes for Wesley Woodyard, and for the conversion of Elvis Dumervil to more of a hybrid player. If either Jarvis Moss or Tim Crowder works out, even better. I think this is a decent upgrade over what was a bad group last season.
DB - This will be a completely new group, save for Champ Bailey (and depending on who has a good camp, probably two out of three between Jack Williams, Josh Bell, and Josh Barrett.) The McDaniels/Xanders strategy is clear here. Bring in so many bodies that the survivors have to be good players. It is very likely that Champ, Andre Goodman, Brian Dawkins, and Renaldo Hill start. That's four good players. It's a near certainty that Alphonso Smith will be the nickelback right away, because he has special talent. Darcel McBath and David Bruton will both almost certainly make the team, Bruton for being a great special-teamer as much as anything. That's 7 locks to make the roster. I'll optimistically project dramatic improvement by Jack Williams, and outstanding special-teams play for Josh Barrett to give us our nine, with McBath able to fill in at CB as needed. This group is dramatically upgraded, though, no matter how you look at it.
ST - I think that the coverage units will be tremendously improved by virtue of the addition of so many good athletes in the draft. Kicker and punter look the same, though I think Prater will do better this year. Arrington probably returns kickoffs if he makes the team, and he's excellent at that. This also seems upgraded.
So, I Axe again.... what is there to really be upset about? I think our team is greatly improved from 1-53, and there's no reason to think that a division championship is out of the question with this group of players and coaches. Remember last year's Dolphins, who went from 1-15 to 11-5 by improving the quality of the bottom of their roster, executing on offense with minimal mistakes, and being sound on defense. This Broncos team is more talented than that Dolphins team, or for that matter, last year's Falcons team. Have some faith.
Now we smell good, in a masculine sort of way (sorry ladies, you're outnumbered here) and we know the answer, because we Axed. (Axe is in no way responsible for the content of this ad, but donations are being accepted and checks may be made out to Ted Bartlett Foundation, with the word "Foundation" written in pencil, please. Thank you.)
3. Optimism doesn't cost anything. This is my new mantra lately, though it pretty much tracks with how I have thought my whole life. I might make some orange-and-blue bumper stickers that say "Optimism doesn't cost anything."
And by the way, calling me a homer doesn't hurt my feelings. I want to see my team do well, and I'd rather not have anything to complain about. Having a constant need to whine is a trait best observed in ex-wives and Raiders fans.
4. The First Amendment is not germane to a setting like MHR, and anybody who graduated from middle-school civics class should understand that. MHR does not represent the United States Congress, and by deleting a troll FanPost, we're not making laws which prohibit the free exercise of religion, infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
By deleting troll posts, we're simply declining to allow this community to devolve into the DP message board, or other cesspools of hatred, vulgarity, and misinformation, and other related forms of douche-baggery. See the MHR Code of Conduct for questions on what is or isn't appropriate behavior. But don't ignorantly invoke the U.S. Constitution when you clearly don't understand what it's saying.
5. I wish that the Morans dude would have turned sideways a little bit and lost the American flag bandanna, so we could get the fuller effect of what seems very likely to be a terrific mullet. I wonder how he feels about literally millions of people laughing at his poor spelling and general ridiculousness? Like that old battle-axe Mrs. Houlihan, of Pembroke, Massachusetts, said back in 1983, SPELLING COUNTS!!!! (And Mr. Mackey chimes in - "Don't get a mullet, either, mmmkay?")
Edit: It seems that the Morans guy may have intentionally spelled "Morons," as "Morans," as a way to criticize Congressman James Moran of Virginia for opposing the US war against Iraq. Thanks to Darin H for bringing this to my attention in the comments below. So, maybe he's not a bad speller, and I retract the implication that he is.
The content of this sign is, however, troll-like, and I stand by the use of this picture as an example of troll-like behavior. And spelling DOES count, and mullets and American flag bandannas ARE horribly tacky.
6. My co-worker said she'd read this if I included some content about something she is interested in, like midgets. I'm always trying to grow the readership, so here goes. Midgets don't actually like to be called midgets. They prefer to be called Little People. Think of it as being analogous to when the private military company/mercenary outfit Blackwater Worldwide re-branded themselves as Xe, (which is pronounced Zee.) Of course, Blackwater mostly re-branded because people got upset about some of their tax-dollar-(very-well)-compensated mercenary personnel indiscriminately shooting innocent Iraqi citizens, which is presumably very different than the reason behind the midget re-branding.
In any case, according to the outstanding film In Bruges, midgets... err, Little People, have a high rate of suicide, which is very sad. If you see a little person, you should try to make him or her feel good about themselves, because most of them are probably the salt of the Earth. For more on Little People, visit the Little People of America website. This sounds like a good place to claim to be diverting those donations to the Ted Bartlett Foundation. :)
7. Retired for John Elway.
8. Back to bidness, I want to talk about Draft picks for a minute, and how they're valued. There is a cottage industry around the NFL Draft, and those who profit from it are incentivized to condition fans to think of a Draft Pick as an important asset. I reject that thinking, because the only thing which gives a Draft Pick any cause for being considered an asset is that it ultimately confers upon the owner the right to pick a player on a specific date and at a specific time in the future. The player is the physical asset at the end of the rainbow, the thing (thing? why the hell not?) which will do work for you in helping your business to operate successfully.
To repeat myself, (in keeping with the best practices of political messaging,) when you own a Draft Pick, you own the right to someday pick a player, so the Draft Pick is actually a derivative asset, like a futures contract. A lot can happen between today and the future date when your derivative asset becomes a physical asset (a player.) There could be an unexpectedly large number of underclassmen deciding to stay in school next season, like there was, to some extent, this season. You could go 0-16, or you could go 16-0, or anything in between, affecting the sequence in which your pick will ultimately be exercisable. You may be up against the cap, and unable to afford the absurd cash outlay that accompanies a high draft pick. Your general manager could get hit by a bus, and your owner could instantaneously go senile and hire Matt Millen to replace him.
The point is, there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding any derivative asset. Remember when every energy analyst in the world was convinced that Oil would be $300 per barrel by 2010? Light Sweet Crude futures traded at $50.46 on Friday at the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX). Do you want to be the guy who went long on oil futures in July 2008? At that time it seemed like a great idea to buy a contract guaranteeing delivery of oil to you at $250 a barrel in July 2010, (so your speculating butt could turn around and eventually sell it to somebody who actually wanted to take delivery of some barrels of oil.) Now? Not so much. You'll be getting some oil delivered to your doorstep, and you'll be contractually paying at least 3 times more for it than market price, and probably 4 or 5 times. You lose.
The Broncos could have kept their #1 next year, but it would be a virtually valueless derivative asset until April 2010. There is an opportunity cost to sitting on it. Instead, they trusted their evaluation of Alphonso Smith, and took a sure thing for something which has a generally accepted selling value of a mid-second rounder this year. In other words, they traded the equivalent of this year's 48th pick for this year's 37th pick.
The Panthers got killed last April for trading this year's #1 to Philadelphia for Jeff Otah last season, and he was the best all-around RT in the NFL as a rookie. They would do that deal again in a heartbeat, and I'd do the Smith deal again in a heartbeat also. He's going to be a big-time player, who will make more game-changing plays in his first 3 games than a good player like D.J. Williams has made in his whole career.
We'll see you next Monday morning for more Shallow Thoughts & Nearsighted Observations. Have a great week!!!
19 recs |
211 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Optimism Doesn't Cost Anything
Love it!
by studbucket on Apr 27, 2009 6:55 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
We could have had Orakpo, Ayers, Brace
That is what we will be watching for a few years. The great Belichick by the way seems to think a lot of Brace, and isn’t that who we are emulating. Orakpo could be a great edge pass rusher and we know about Ayers.
We got a running back, how much of an upgrade will that be over what we could have had anyway the next couple of years.
We got a back up corner that probably won’t play that significant a role over the next two years.
I see no evidence that we will pressure the QB any better next year then we did last year and no D backfield can look good if the other team has all day to sit back and dissect. We had better be in the top 5 in points scored next year or we will all be crying about the top 10 draft pick we could have had.
by Lisa FB on Apr 27, 2009 6:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The only problem with that is
There is no guarantee that we would have been in the top 10 next year anyway, hopefully we win games this year and we would have ended up at the bottom anyway. :-) At least that is what I am hoping for, but I also tend to be the eternal optimist at times
GO BRONCOS!!
by Stuman on Apr 27, 2009 7:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lisa, on Brace for a minute....
The Pats are in a COMPLETELY different situation than us. They are staring down WIlfork and Seymour going to FA next year, and they will NOT be able to keep both.
Brace is an insurance policy for whats going to happen next year, and Belichick had NO choice but to gamble on Brace. Denver has a bonafide NT in Fields, took Pedescleaux AND Baker in CFA.
The NT class next year is VERY good, compared to this class (Raji and Brace included) which was very average AND unproven in a 3-4 set.
In fact, the only NT prospect that has played the majority of time in a 3-4 is……you guessed it. CHRIS BAKER from Hampton.
Dont fall for what the MSM is peddling, and do some research of you own.
Thanks!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
The biggest issue this year is it was an extremely weak NT class in a year the Broncos needed a NT. But as McDaniels said yesterday, why should they draft players they don’t think are any good just to fill a need, then see them cut because they weren’t any good? They didn’t draft more NT because after Raji, whom they weren’t in a position to draft, it was a huge drop off. Baker as a FA could be just as worthy as many of the other DT’s who were drafted. Also,personally I liked Ayers better than Orakpo. But they could both be good, we’ll see.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
An issue of evidence
I believe we haven’t seen the evidence of an improved pass rush because the players have not yet been finaliized, had the chance to learn and master the new system and apply it in a game situation. We will see that improvement once those things happen.
I also believe that with the upgrades in the secondary opposing qb’s will be forced to hold on to the ball longer, increasing the effectiveness of the rush.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by BShrout on Apr 27, 2009 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused...
I’ve seen a particular thought in a few places on the site now… the notion being about how our improved secondary from the draft and free agency will improve the pass rush effectiveness…
But haven’t we been saying the exact opposite for the last 2 years now?? Haven’t we been saying that we could have 2 Champ Baileys in the secondary and it wouldn’t matter because you cannot expect any corner to have to cover a good WR for 7+ seconds??
I’ll grant you that having Dawkins + Hill over M&M is 200%, no wait, 2000% better, but given our front 7 woes from last year and IMHO minimal improvement so far this offseason, I think we might still need to commit Dawkins in the box to support the run.
So, I’d have to counter that without a significantly improved pass rush and run defense, I fear our secondary will still get torched by the likes of Peyton and Brady.
I know some have also said that last year’s defensive woes were due to mis-utilizing players and bad coaching/scheme, but forgive me if I am not sold yet that switching to a 3-4 with a new coaching staff, Ron Fields, and Darrell Reid is magically going raise us up from giving up almost 450 points.
So, I’m with thedoctor and Lisa on this one… I would’ve liked it better if the Bronco Brass hadn’t traded away those two 3rd round picks and maybe grabbed 1-2 more DLmen. Even if it was for the pure sake of camp competition, it would’ve at least eased the minds of us fans. =/
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Secondary
does need help from the d-line in the form of a pass rush. I think we are going to rely on the FA pick-ups and the switch to a 3-4 or 4-3 hybrid to help us generate the pass rush. I also think Ayers was brought in to help rush the passer on third downs possibly from the OLB spot, which should help the secondary in pass protection.
Now I also believe the McD targeted the secondary for improvement to help our d-line in run stopping. We gave up way too many 15-20 yard runs the should have only been 5-10 yard runs had we had run support from our secondary. The DB’s are more than willing tackers, minus maybe McBath who is more of a deep saftey net, they are also ballhawks. Our D really needs help generating turnovers and McD has placed a priority on guys that have the ability and instincts to find the ball.
The next point is that having more turnovers should keep the front 7 fresh to attack the QB and hopefully get to the passer more. To conclude it seems the McD and Nolan think the scheme will help give us a pass rush and the added secondary help will generate turnovers and help with run protection. Two things our team needed last season which should help all three phases play better.
P.S. – on your final point about adding 1-2 more d-linemen for camp competition, McD has stated he did not want to pick up players that will not make the team. He feels each guy they targetted has the ability to contribute to the football team. Personally I would rather have ST players like Brunton than camp fodder for the D-line.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
by BroncoJoe87 on Apr 27, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are good points...
But I disagree with you and McD on the thought not having “camp fodder” at all…
As I have long said, I feel the draft is an inexact science at best and actually a huge crap shoot… IMHO.
Take for example on one side of the coin: Ryan Leaf, Rashaan Salaam, Kijana Carter, Akili Smith, and our very own Willie Middlebrooks, Marcus Nash, and Dan Williams.
Take for example, the other side of the coin: Tom Brady, Jerry Rice, Richard Dent, and our very own Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Karl Mecklenberg, and Simon Fletcher (Rod Smith doesn’t count exactly, since he undrafted).
I would hazard a guess that most, if not, all of the latter group were considered “camp fodder” in their first training camp. Do we, or McDaniels even, really know right now who will make our team and who will not? That’s why you take a chance on some of these guys. Bring them in for competition, coach them up and prepare them for the next level, see what they’re made of and what they can do, and maybe just maybe you’ll end up with a Richard Dent on your hands. That’s what I was most frustrated with during this draft… from Quinn on, was there really zero DE’s, DT’s, or LB’s that were worth our pick? I read alot of Chicago sports news, being that I live here, and I hear that Jarron Gilbert is a beast. As just one specific example, why couldn’t we have taken him over a blocking TE?
I agree with the idea that you don’t draft by need in the high rounds (ala Jarvis Moss) and go BPA… but I believe, once you get in the later rounds, there’s your opportunity to start addressing needs even if the player isn’t necessarily BPA. At that point, the BPA differential between players gets smaller and smaller. And worst case, you get a player who is a backup and coached into a stellar special teams player, like Brendon Ayanbadejo.
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair point!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 6:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are some good points yourself...
I guess I took your comment,
I would’ve liked it better if the Bronco Brass hadn’t traded away those two 3rd round picks and maybe grabbed 1-2 more DLmen. Even if it was for the pure sake of camp competition.
a little too far. I see your not saying to just bring them in to get cut but to create more competition during camp and see what we can make of these guys. Fair point, however I would rather the Bronco Brass target the players they feel have the best shot to turn out like Smith, Davis, etc. Instead of taking guys they aren’t sure about but who might turn into a good player at a position on need.
As for the worst case scenario with them being coached into stellar special teams players, I just have to ask how many stellar special teams players Shanny brought us with that strategy?
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
by BroncoJoe87 on Apr 28, 2009 7:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
All true too
I guess in the end… it’s simply a difference of opinion and outlook on the team. I’m glad to see some bodies being brought in on the DL as CFA’s… hopefully a few of them can turn out to be a Wesley Woodyard or Simon Fletcher!
by tunga77 on Apr 28, 2009 8:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good counterpoint but
consider this. What if they deemed that those players were no better than the list of CFAs they had targetted?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 28, 2009 8:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but as an armchair-sipping-on-my-miller-lite fan
We do have the right to question and criticize their analysis when we felt like perhaps we should’ve taken Orakpo, or Jarron Gilbert, or the dozens of DL’s or LB’s taken at and after our Quinn pick!
I admit, I am not expert, nor am I even a good talent evaluator of say… Pop Warner football… but at the same time, our coaches, our experts, are fallible too. Just as with all drafts, we’ll look back on this one years later and say “damn, why couldn’t we have taken so-and-so, because that guy turned out to be an all-pro.” Hopefully, our coaches did a great job and we won’t be saying that about too many DLinement or LB’s, but by only taking 1 player in the draft amongst so many available picks, I worry that we will be.
As I said to BroncoJoe… it all comes down to differences of opinion / outlook. Some of us are perfectly happy with this draft… others, look at the results with a more critical eye and are expressing concerns that we did not address what I thought we all felt was a huge area of need (the front 7).
by tunga77 on Apr 28, 2009 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey no problem
the Orakpo v. Ayers is a debate that makes sense. As to the Olsen pick it is a very smart pick even if it doesn’t make sense to a lot of fans. Graham is the highest paid TE in the league, is getting up there in years, and has a contract coming up soon. Drafting a replacement, if they found their guy, it is a smart move. It may or may not pan out, which is true of any draft pick, but it is very logical.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 28, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The run D has been improved over last year
Ayers was the best run stopping D Lineman in the draft. Andra Davis is a run stopping beast of an ILB. DJ moving to the middle will help our run-stopping as well. The new players brought in plus a better scheme/coaching on D will help us stop the run better as well as help generate better pressure on the QB. We also picked up a couple of D lineman already as CFA signings. I understand some fans dissapointment at only drafting 1 D Lineman but we signed 2 D Lineman in FA (Fields and Ried) and signed 2 more CFA. I think we have improved our run stopping more than a lt of naysayers think.
If we could have just screwed another head on his shoulders, he would have been the greatest QB who ever lived.
by c_style on Apr 27, 2009 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I certainly hope you are right!
I guess I have become a bit of a pessimist w/r/t the draft and FA over the last several Shanahan years. Aside from the 08 draft, we have had soooo many busts on the defensive side of the ball that I think I will view any acquisition with a pessimistic eye. =/
Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Sam Adams, Simeon Rice, Niko, even Boss, Dre Bly, and maybe even M&M. All these players got my hopes up and then absolutely crushed them with their horrific play on the field. Just typing out those names have made me depressed. lolz…
And then when we are stockpiled with draft picks from the Cutler fiasco and I don’t see much in way of drafting on that side of the ball… I get a bit frusrated, ya know?
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fisrt thing we must all realize that there is nothing similiar between Broncos version 08 and Broncos version 09..
There is no history with the franchise as it stands now and we would all be wise to consider this when we start making judgments about this season.
It is hard to do, but it will make things clearer if we dont hamstring THIS team and its decisions with what Shanny and Co did. That has no bearing on anything, anymore!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 28, 2009 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
The versions aren’t 100% different as we still have many of the same players on defense that failed to produce last year… but I get your point… Hope springs eternal! I will try to keep that in mind.
by tunga77 on Apr 28, 2009 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly Tunga....I actually think we are on the same page...
We have some of the same roster, and I think clearly that the staff we have now feels that the guys can be put in situations that make them successful.
Our coaches were terrible last year, and guys were played out of position and away from their strengths.
I feel scheme was the BIGGEST problem….or lack there of……than personnel.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 28, 2009 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha... not completely yet on the same page
Like I have said before, I don’t completely buy into that yet… note: I say “necessarily” and “yet” so I can change my mind later when I’ve been proven wrong, hehe. ;)
Scheme and coaching can definitely be a part of the problem but for me at the end of the day, talent is a huge component the equation as well. I seem to remember watching our DL struggle to get any pressure on QBs all year long. Sure the scheming might have been poor, but at the end of the day, there were alot of instances where Moss, Thomas, and even Doom were asked to basically beat an opposing linemen mano-a-mano and failed to do so. In fact, I remember seeing those guys get pushed around and sometimes flat out mauled by good offensive linemen. =/
I hope you’re right though and the coaching changes, scheme changes, and some of the positive personnel changes (Fields, Reid, secondary peeps) can overcome this, but I have to point out, one could also argue that some of these things will actually generate more issues to overcome. i.e., the players will need time to gel, need time to learn the new schemes and plays, and need time to adjust to the new teammates and coaches.
by tunga77 on Apr 28, 2009 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, this team will be slightly improved if at all on D, thanks to the lack of properly focused moves.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree....
1) the moves were focussed – if you evaluated the actual play of the defense (not the pablum served up by the media) you would see that piss poor play by the secondary and LBs were the problem far more than the D-line. Not that the D-line was a diamond in the rough, but it certainly was not as bad as the press would have you believe. The secondary and LBs have been addressed through FA and scheme.
2) the problems on defense were at least half scheme based (or lack of scheme based) if not more so. We are completely changing scheme to one I thknk will be successful. However it is nothing like what the MSM keeps claiming it will be. Remember these are the same expects who told you over and over that there was no place for a feature back in McD’s system.
3) If you accept the premise that the most glaring holes were filled through FA (which is what the FO seems to believe) then the draft picks serve to provide depth behind the oldest players on defense. That makes sense.
4) Finally, in adraft rich in DBs and poor in D-lineman, drafting into strength instead of reaching for weakness is a valid strategy. It may or may not work out, but it is a valid approach.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 27, 2009 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) so if I quote say, Mark Schlereth, who said the Broncos front 7 was the worst in the NFL last year, that means nothing to you? When I say I saw horrific front 7 play all last year, I know nothing because I disagree with you?
2) Half? that seems high. We will see. Players still have to play. You could put me in the best cheme in the world and I would still suck. You HOPE scheme is half hte problem…you don’t know.
3) not when other far more glaring holes exist.
4) If we had actually just drafted into strength, that would be fine by me. Instead we reached for blocking TEs, traded future firsts for mis-seconds, and ignored what value did exist at positions of need.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Schlereth is entitled to his opinion...
the facts don’t seem to support it though. I never said the play of the front 7 wasn’t horrific, however, I did say that it wasn’t solely due to lack of talent. There was/is talent in the front 7. Maybe not on a par with Pittsburg or Baltimore, but certainly much better than the result on the field might indicate.
Exactly which glaring holes are you referring too? At DT we have Thomas who is a capable player and Peterson who also seems to be capable. At NT we have Field who will probably never be all-pro, but who is better than anyone available at NT in the draft. At DE/LB we have Ayers and Doom, two capable players with star potential. At LB we have Davis a good run stuffer, Williams starter/possible star along with Bailey and Woodyard. Which glaring holes are you referring to?
Where was this “value” at positions of need. I realize the TE pick may not make sense, but we will need a replacement for graham and Scheffler/Putzier ain’t that kind of blocker. The trade of next years first is open to debate.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 27, 2009 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of your all time best
Loved the positional breakdown. Great context. Still wish we had managed to find a monster NT, but at least we’ll have raised the lower end of our talent spectrum enough not to rank last this year. (I hope.)
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:05 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the biggest problem
with finding a NT was the fact that there really wasn’t one in this draft. Even Raji was more of a projected talent at NT than a proven one, and he was probably the best option, at least in my mind.
by Stuman on Apr 27, 2009 7:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I’m sure we’ll find one eventually. But now we know first hand why there’s such a premium on them.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 6:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post
I must admit I was taken totally off guard by our first pick, but after the initial shock wore off I feel a whole lot better about it. It is certainly an area of need as witnessed by last season, and I don’t know that the need was completely filled by all the free agent signings which may or may not still be with us come game day.
The front 7 I am still unsure of, but I wont make any rash decisions until I actually get to see some action on the field, apperently the front office didn’t find any of the potential people in the draft to be any better than what we have now. I think KC reaching for Tyson Jackson at 3 played into our pick a lot. Had he still been there at 12 we may have taken him over Moreno but who knows really.
I also agree with you on the first round pick trade. If you have someone on your board that you think is a first round talent and you can make that trade to get him in the second round that is a far better value than that first round pick would have been next year. Besides we still ahve a first round pick next year, it’s not like we wont have a pick in the first round. And like I have said in other posts, in my opinion the top 10 picks are becoming more of a liability than anything else, there is a reason nobody is trading up into the top of the first round anymore, it’s way to much money for not a whole lot more value than you can get in the middle to end of the first in most cases.
by Stuman on Apr 27, 2009 7:08 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
In defense of trolls.
While some of the trolls were obviously so (and quite possible rival fans trying to stir something up), I did feel that some of the people getting viewed as trolls were simply fans who were very frustrated over a draft and an offseason that they weren’t ready to buy into, and perhaps were not quite ’net-eloquent enough to state their positions as clearly as others.
And sometimes, asking someone to back up their position with facts and figures is a little over the top. Not everybody is adept at thinking like that, and not everybody chooses to be that kind of a fan. I’m a huge huge huge numbers guy myself, but that means that I have to be even more respectful of those who aren’t as I simply don’t see things from the same POV as them.
Right now, the “+100000000” crowd is clearly the majority opinion around MHR. That’s fine, but so much circular back-patting can be construed as an indictment against skeptical fans who would otherwise like to be part of a more rational board.
The bottom line is that everybody is very emotional about the team right now. There’s a lot of uncertainty and we’re all trying to project into the future with a huge set of assumptions. It’s quite alright to recognize (and even subscribe to) the possibility that the McDaniels era may be an abject failure.
(FYI, I’d say much the same if the situation were reversed. I don’t know my opinion yet; this isn’t a self-defense.)
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 7:33 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
A troll is somebody who comes on here...
and uses derogatory names for people, or jacks a thread in which other members are having a civil and intelligent discourse. People can be frustrated, and dissent agains the actions of the team, but they have to do it in a respectful manner if they’re going to do it here.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 7:41 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
I know you meant that. I just meant to say that, as text chats often go, the distinction is easily lost in a more general context. Sometimes people are genuinely not trolls but don’t realize they come across sounding like one. At other times, somebody refuting a dissenting opinion can feel like they’re treating that person as a troll, even if they’re not. (It’s especially possible when the dissent is against a strong and passionate majority.)
Even now, I’m not chastising or berating, but I can’t help but wonder if it’s coming across like I am.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not
Regardless of position, you’re giving a reasonable and valuable argument. And that’s the difference.
I’m not senior staff, and I don’t have to make decisions about who posts but I’ve flagged some and been in on some discussions of who to leave and who to regretfully delete. I can tell you from that experience that we try to give each person the right to ANY opinion that is expressed in a rational manner. You can only have an issue if you’re attacking people in a hostile and irrational way and/or using profanity. Everyone that makes a mistake is given a chance to alter that behavior. We welcome all points of view. We just don’t accept personal attack, slurs or profane remarks, and that’s a pretty low bar.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
thanks for the clarification
Good that you clarified things. I dislike the uncivil people who engage in name-calling both ways. It does nothing to add to the discourse to call a guy in his mid-20’s who lost 30 pounds fighting for us while battling diabetes a “crybaby.”
In addition, you guys are usually positive about what the new coaching empire is doing. That’s fine, but you risk becoming homers when you do that. Contrary perceptions keep us all realistic and focused.
That said, I appreciate your analysis.
by Baltimore Bronco on Apr 27, 2009 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't berate Cutler.
I’ve stood up for his abilities, which don’t decline because he left us. I also don’t like the “cry baby” moniker.
On the other hand, I also stand up for our coach. He gets pillaried for turning down an offer for Cutler, then dealing with a disgruntled player who demands a trade and refuses to answer phone calls. For this, people say that McDaniels “traded” a player. He didn’t, really. Cutler removed himself from the team forcefuly (under the inluence of a shady agent). For that, Cutler made a youthful and foolish mistake.
There’s no homerism there. I love my team, but I’m not about to be accused of being a homer. I hated the coordinators last year and the year before, and I wrote that. I also haed the playcalling. I wrote that. I have been critical of may players and moves in the past and said so. What annoys me, is that after I’ve been with this site for several years, some folks (and I don’t mean you) come here and call me a homer because I think our new coach handled the Cutler mess well, or because I can make sense of 4/5s of this recent draft (I only disliked two picks).
Just as dissent alone doesn’t make one a troll, agreeing with a team here and there doesn’t make one a homer. Let’s all grant that.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that Hooper but here is what has been COOKING MY GRITS all weekend....
Is “members” here that only ever post at MHR to bitch and whine.
Is that fandom?
If you want to be a part of a community, you take a stakehold in said community….for good and bad.
These guys that come on here to do nothing but get on McDaniels case because they cant get over Shanny and Cutler leaving bring nothing positive, in the majority of cases, except opinion and vitriol based on their own half cocked assessment of stituation with out doing research or bringing a solution or legitimate argument to the table.
It is like those “citizens” f our country that bitch and whine about how the government is screwing them, yet they dont even get off their arses and vote.
DRIVES ME NUTS!
…..and yes, I am an Australian and an American, and you can bet I voted before anyone even goes there!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 7:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Boydy, for the most part.
However, some people just see the world differently and react to a lot of situations in a negaive manner. I have a number of people in my family and people that I manage that behave this way. Of course these guys are going to see the worst in every FA move or draft pick— that’s just how they see the world. There is a place for these people in this forum, especially the ones who back up their belifs with a reasonable arguement. I’m probably optomistic to a fault (I’m a fan of the Koolaid), and I’m sure that’s just as annoying.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is unfortunate that some people get stuck in viewing everything in a negative light. I don’t think anyone here minds people that come in and say, I think they made a mistake and here is why…
What is driving us nuts are the posts that just start mouthing off against the coach and the owner and whatever else.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right there.....this place became as close to the DP as I have seen on the weekend...
I love MHR but the weekend was testing.
All the GREAT stuff that the staff did was unravelled by the never ending negativity….it was tough to take.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I t was MUCH closer during the cutler debate
remember the alamo, and all that… :)
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the weekend was pretty mild, to be honest.
Considering that this was the first draft after the division title was lost (grrr!), Shanahan was released, Cutler was traded, both the entire offense and defense face makeovers, and this is Josh’s first draft, it’s not like Broncos fans were edgy or anything…
But the emotions have already calmed waaaay down from the weekend. Everybody was living in their emotions; it happens.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but those people are pretty easy to ignore once identified...
I scrolled through most of those discussions this weekend without it really getting to me. It helps that I knew it was coming.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love your style BB......good point. I can get easily irritated.....
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
I don’t post much, but do a whole lot of reading and absorbing on here, and I was irritated by some of them as well, enough so that I ended up posting to one that I probably should have just let go.
by Stuman on Apr 27, 2009 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I think me and you went after the same dude
by T.Dot_Bronco on Apr 27, 2009 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your right
for whatever reason he really got under my skin
by Stuman on Apr 27, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks man.
Don’t worry about this place turning into the DP. The trolls are not going to be fed with red meat day after day on this site. We don’t have Woody Page and Kizla whacking the bees nest every week. All of the well thought-out posts and discussions will easily bore these folks. Plus, when things get out of hand, the staff is good about taking down innane, hurtful fanposts, and booting people.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is way too much insight found on this webpage. Even if only by osmosis, sooner or later people who routinely visit will evolve past the DP forum poster stage.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Btw
I found a couple of posts on one of the Yahoo blogs that were almost verbatim the same as inflammatory posts we saw here the other night. If that’s not Troll Evidence, I don’t know what is. :-)
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I belive those are refered to as Troll droppings
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where else can we\they complain?
I mean we should still be civil but I think if you’re frustrated with the broncos a broncos forum is a good place to state it. who else can empathize and sympathize with the frustrations?
by trumanj on Apr 27, 2009 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Difference between complaining and what we are talking about.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+100000
;-) just kidding
But I do get your point and was trying to be conscious of that too. Dissent should be welcome here, and I know a lot of people had concerns about the draft, or legit concerns about things, which shouldn’t be shouted down. It’s the people who come in full guns a-blazing with really flame-y language, name-calling, without really making a rational point, that were/are the concern.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Broncoman
Well Broncoman is certainly no big fan of what has gone on recently but at least he backs up his feeling and opinion with some prose. So he is a dissenter that I happily welcome to the discussion.
Just an example.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I hope people aren’t afraid of criticizing management or the team — I don’t think people are. Most of us can tell legit trolls from people who have legit criticism that they back up. (I help manage a couple of blogs for my job and have gotten pretty good at determining the people just trying to start a fight vs people who have legit criticism).
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Broncoman is a good example....
of a guy with a lot of criticism for the team, but a fan who is not in any way, shape, or form a “troll”.
Trolls just post negativity without any thought, and attack others personally. Then they cry that nobody likes them. Witness the dummy that complained about his post being taken down.
When his post was eliminated, it had only 3 comments and no recommends, and it was nothing more than name calling. Yet he cried about MHR sifling dissent.
Odd. The highest recommended fan post was by “thedoctor”. It was very negative. It also went untouched by our staff. “thedoctor’s” comments under other threads are all (in my opinion) negative. But he didn’t get personal, even when I gave him plenty of opportunities to do so. He’s no troll.
We have a lot of negative comments, but not many negative people. I’ve written critical articles, and made critical comments. I always try (and sometimes but rarely fail) to make my negative comments in a friendly and agreeable manner.
Toss off remarks like “Once again, our coach makes a stupid move” may be annoying and childish, and without any rational support may sound trollish. But it isn’t. When the remark becomes “Cutler is #^a*$” or “You’re just to stupid to realize…” THAT’S when a line is crossed.
At MHR, we LOVE debate. The staff rarely agrees on everything. But there is one rule that we all go by. “Keep it classy”. If you can’t, get lost. If you can’t get lost, we’ll help you.
One last quick point. Guru is like Xerxes from “The 300”. He is kind and merciful. There are times when the rest of the staff pleads the case for an account to end. He has always been the last to give in.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL.
That’s funny.
And as far as MHR goes: if it weren’t such a well-run and well-moderated place in the first place, I wouldn’t have even brought that thought up. For me to even discuss this speaks miles of MHR.
I love having people dissent with my opinion for two reasons. First, it gives me a chance to validate my own opinion by giving that opinion a challenge and a reason to back itself up. Second, if I have either missed something or have incorrectly concluded something, it gives me a chance to correct myself. Either way, I win.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
i am very unhappy at the way I was treated here for not beating on the company drum. Especially by the site’s organizers — I was threatened with a ban for calling a move stupid. really?
I think I made some well thought out posts clearly laying my reasoning behind my unhappiness, and the circular back-patters were right there to denounce me, often without any reasoning. We’ll have to wait for this year to end, and I hope I’m wrong and will have to eat crow…but if I’m not, I’ll be looking for the same the other way.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read some of your posts dude...
I have no problem with them. I noticed a lot of angry comments coming from people who joined up this weekend. My problem this weekend was some new people came on a immediately posted some condescending thoughtless and non researched dribble. I’m all for criticism and solid thoughts but I’m not digging high and mighty attitudes. I have tweaked my outlook many times based on strong arguments by both sides of the spectrum.
by T.Dot_Bronco on Apr 27, 2009 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to reread what you wrote.
Calling a move stupid doesn’t cut it. We all call moves stupid.
Your comments were flippant and designed to upset other members. We have plenty of members and staff that don’t like moves made by the team. But we don’t write sharp, quick barbs or result to name calling as you did. The clue that you are starting to cross the line is when long time members ask you to leave or knock it off.
You’ll notice that we left your post untouched. It was a better job than many of your comments were in the draft threads.
And for all of your negativity, I didn’t see you cross the line into trolling.
Dissent all you want. Join me when I’m the dissenter too. Just don’t fall into calling somebody stupid, and you’ll continue to do fine.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
me:
why not? we appear to be that stupid. if im a NFL GM im on the phone offering mid rounders for hillis too.
you:
You may not like the picks, but "stupid" is typically reserved for trolls from other sites.
We don’t roll that way here. Do yourself (and your account with us) a favor and tone it down a bit. You can disagree without sounding like you just came over from the Denver Post message boards.
If you can’t handle a bit of unhappiness with our moves, you should ban me now, and everyone else that’s unhappy out loud. I said nothing untoward or malicious, just a touch of sarcasm and some frustration. And you threaten the status of my account for disagreeing with your sunshine and roses view?
I think you need to calm down yourself, and realize not everyone agrees with you. you’re going to chase people off if you threaten them for showing displeasure in light doses. already this community has far too great a tendency to jump on minority opinions. it’s extremely homogeneous here, and you have only yourselves to blame.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You clearly don't get it.
You’ve intimated that we (the context is the GM) appears “stupid”. That’s not done here. It’s not done whether we agree with who’s stupid or not. It our rules, not yours. If you don’t like the rule, by all means, leave. We don’t ban people because they ask us to. We ban them for questioning motives or name calling.
I’ve praised several people in this thread who were unhahppy with our moves. I didn’t praise you. There’s a reason for that. It clearly has nothing to do with “sunshine and roses”, and everything to deal with your lack of respect for other members.
Next, I am not required to “calm down”. This isn’t your house, and you sure as heck didn’t build it. But I am calm, sitting (as I am) with a purring cat in my lap and a darned good glass of tea in my hand.
But here’s where you drop the ball.
…already this community has far too great a tendency to jump on minority opinions. it’s extremely homogeneous here, and you have only yourselves to blame.
The last I noticed, your fanpost received 11 recommends from this homogeneous, small minded community you refer to. Your alleged victimhood bought you time atop our fanpost listing as “highly recommended”. Keep attacking a community that his given you a forum for you views, and you’ll get your wish. Victim indeed.
Or you can drop the hateful talk, and stake out a side and defend it and be a part of the family, whatever your views. I’m not going to make the choice for you, no matter how much you want to be banned. We have plenty of members who rarely have a positive thing to say that make up some of our finest, great members.
The choice is yours. But I win either way. You tone down your personal comments and become a contributer, or you leave. But you will not make the rules around here.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow. you will ban people for “questioning motives?” of the team? of the staff here? im stunned, im not sure how I discuss a team’s direction without questioning their motives. I suppose all I could do is post when I liked something. That’s what you’re headed for with that policy, and I’m sad to say hat won’t lead to great discussion or improvement if you can’t handle light frustration with a team or any questioning at all.
I have great respect for other members. disagreeing with people has 0% to do with respect for people. personal attacks and jabs, as even you are wont to do, those are disrespectful.
Stop putting words in my mouth — this community is not small minded and i never said so. I was gratified to see the post get recced, but it only came after i begged people in the comments to rec it just to continue the conversation.
“But I win either way.”
wow, is that what this is about to you? winning some debate? that’s never crossed my mind, I’m just concerned about my team, stunned at the joy over the same moves i mind so awful, and hoping to discuss it here.
“You tone down your personal comments”
You are the only one with personal attacks here.
“and become a contributer, or you leave. But you will not make the rules around here.”
I did make an extremely long and well-though out post that received recs, accolades, and some of the most comments of a fanpost I’ve seen, with some of the highest quality discussion in the comments too. Nor am I trying to make rules in the slightest.
Maybe you have a different definition of contributer: only posting when I agree with you. Because that’s the only thing I haven’t done. If that’s what it is, then I will definitely be leaving.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to relax man. We only ban the worst offenders.
As for all of the “discussion” here in this thread…it will be deleted. Guru doesn’t allow people to seriously co-opt a thread like this one has. Your comments won’t be the only ones deleted, HT’s and anyone else. I know you are not a bad guy and you feel threatened for some reason, but just chill out a little. We like all forms of opinion here, just keep it civil. I have yet to give my take on this draft and whatever “company line” you keep referring too, is just not factual. Not all of us “staff” agree with each other.
Take a breath. Don’t let one little disagreement ruin your experience. In the future, you will likely agree with many of us on certain things. You’re FanPost was an excellent viewpoint and got rec’d as such. We only delete post that affect our front page content in a negative light. Having “McDouche” in the title for example is just going to axed without warning, but having a negative viewpoint shouldn’t cause any action on our part. The FanPost section is for members to share their opinion, go for it. Try not to co-opt a thread like this…I don’t see this type of discourse in the post above, therefore I see no reason for everyone to be going round and round like this.
I’ll be surprised if any of this exists tomorrow. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's probably my comment that got this all started.
That said, I hope this isn’t deleted. I’ve found the whole discussion very informative and have really appreciated reading along (especially the exchange between ht and td). I also think it’s right in-line with the originating post, as 3 of the 7 non-Elway bullet points deal specifically with the weekend’s commenting activity (bullets 1, 4, and 5).
That you’re even having this discussion is a huge step above subscription-tied message boards (places like DP and other newspapers, ESPN.com, etc. that sell subscriptions and have a vested financial interest in the commenters themselves). It’s purely my opinion, but why hide that?
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt the thread goes anywhere
Ted should be used to his thread getting off on a tangent. I won’t speak for him, but I think the design of Ted’s posts is to encourage us NOT to be shallow and near-sighted. The discussions that follow his work always tends to deal with principles, essentials, and “what is going on behind the curtain” type thingking.
This seems in line with that.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole diatribe seems like a waste of space and time.
I enjoy reading through comments, not a round and round we go discussion that produces nothing but animosity and which neither side will budge from their already(at length) stated positions.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, Ted's whole article is a *series* of tangents!
That’s why I love it. ^^
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t feel threatened in any way, I’m merely pointing out HT has tried to threaten and insult me (unsuccessfully I might add), and I don’t understand why in either case — unless it because I’m disagreeing with him, which would seem fairly petty and out of character. Again, I have great respect for the people running this site. I disagree with some of their assessment of this draft, and with the Broncos management’s choices.
This one disagreement won’t ruin my experience here regardless. I’m concerned, based on the “we ban them for questioning motives” quote, that it will continue to be a problem if I disagree with someone or, God forbid, question the motives of the team. I’m also concerned it will be a problem for other, future people just trying to be fans, make this same “mistake,” and get internet-bullied.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You want the unvarnished truth?
You are antagonistic. No offense. Just a polite observation. HT doesn’t like antagonistic people…and your attitude rubbed him the wrong way. He is an infinitely forgiving person and this issue can be cleared up rather quickly. A simple, I’m sorry, you’re sorry would suffice and let’s get past this misunderstanding.
You need to develop a thicker skin. All criticism isn’t a personal attack and all disagreement isn’t a challenge to your manhood. Try to be a little more civil in the future…throw in a compliment before adding your disagreement. It goes for a long way in letting the other person know that your disagreement isn’t personal and that you appreciated their thoughts even though you disagreed with them. You know, that thing called etiquette.
also, you could have handled this issue differently, as could HT and others. There is no reason for the bickering over something as silly as a “disagreement”. I tend to side with HT with his belief that your language was antagonistic which is why I threw that out there at the beginning. The way you give your opinion offends and incites. If that is your overall objective then so be it, just do away with the pretense already. If HT and the rest misunderstood your intentions then make amends and start over. Either way, the ball is in your court. You likely won’t be banned because you have not done anything seriously offending. Guru has a very high tolerance level for antagonistic types, but the community as a whole does not.
I strongly encourage you to back track a little and attempt to smooth things out a little, otherwise few people will ever listen to anything you have to say around here.
PS You can give you opinion at any time…we encourage that. Some of us, who happen to be parents, don’t appreciate the various McName’s or bad language. This is a family-oriented website. If you have something to say that includes McName’s or harsh language, start a gmail group…MHR isn’t the place for profane remarks or McInsult’s. Well, that’s not true…some McName’s are family friendly. Just use common sense!
See, you sucked me in…this is my last comment on this (non)issue. Email me if you want me to respond.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
im emailing this to you as well
It’s a true sign this is meaningless bickering to say this, but I sure as heck didn’t start it. HT getting mad me for calling a potential move to draft Josh Freeman stupid and threatening me with banning, that did. That’s petty internet bullying, and he followed it up with personal attacks and jabs in this thread.
But at the same time, I’m not intending to offend anyone here with jabs, personal attacks, or antagonism. In looking at this discussion, I probably did get too close to those things with calling styg’s arguments wishing and hoping. I’ve already apologized to him below, but I think he gets there was no offense intended since he simply responded with more football discussion. I’ll watch being antagonistic in the future too, the advice is well taken. I think everyone is taking me just a touch seriously here, maybe I’ll try more smilies. :)
If I’ve offended anyone else by calling taking Josh Freeman stupid, questioning the draft strategy, or anything else, I apologize as well. Post here, and I’ll make it personal.
And since giving opinions is welcome here apparently, I’ll reiterate that you as mods need to watch the bullying, personal attacks, and all the same things people are on me for. I’m not the only one that should be considering apologies.
Clearly tons of profanity, personal attacks, and name calling are bad things that you should be policing, but I did none of those things, as you assume I did! go look! In fact, you’re asking me to abandon pretense and just commence with the trolling? You’re putting words in my mouth, you’re grouping me with DP trolls and such because I disagreed publicly with the team, and then spoke up when bullied? This is a scary precedent, and good mods need to be more willing to look at their own culpability.
oh and imagine a wry smile on my face, because that’s how this is said — no antagonism is there.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was from you....
that’s too bad, because your position could use some defense. liking everything is a trademark of homer-ing.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re really not trying to offend him? This is not antagonism?
I call BS (tones and tones of terrible profanity here) on you and your wry smile (did you really tell us what you looked like while typing a post???).
Hows this, after careful review of all of your posts in this thread, in my opinion you’re an antagonistic troll.
Personal Attack! Personal Attack!
by RudyR on Apr 28, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh yeah....
They can ban you for anything.
I got banned from a SB Nation site (to remain nameless) for transcendental debatory prowess.
Well, that was my take anyway…and I’m sticking to it. ;-)
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 27, 2009 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
debatory??
I didn’t know they allowed that on SB Nation! LOL
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol…there wasn’t an adjective form of ‘debate’ so I was forced to invent one. ;-)
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 28, 2009 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was
“transexxual debatury prowler…”
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 28, 2009 12:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, ’that’s my story and I’m sticking to it’.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 28, 2009 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said -
I definitely fell into this category over the weekend. Just want to apologize if I let my frustrations get the better of me. I do think there is a ton of good content here not just from guys like Ted and styg – but commentors as well. I may not agree with all of you on everything – but for the most part your arguments are well backed and our differences come down to more optimism/pessimism. Appreciate the forum.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
by Hizilla on Apr 27, 2009 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got mad.
But you kept yourself in check too.
No worries mate! Keep up the good work.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said, Hooper...
Gromit 4TW!!!! =)
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just noticed.
I love me some W&G. When I saw that they had avatars on their website, I couldn’t resist.
It was that or Feathers McGraw.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
omg!
It never occurred to me to search for their website and now that you’ve pointed me there, I find that there has been a new short that I hadn’t even heard of! I can’t wait to order it!
Thanks, sir!
And yes, Feathers McGraw rawks.
Me cheeeeese, Gromit, me cheeeeese!
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL "the +100000000 crowd"
That would be (at least partly) me. : ) And I agree with everything you said above, hooper, so…. you guessed it! I’m gonna have to give you at least +10000000. Maybe +9999999, to hopefully not annoy you too badly. ; )
However, just for the record, I want it noted that the number of zeros varies distinctly. And even numbers north of a billion should not infer complete acceptance of the site’s prevailing wisdom or “positivity”, only that I agree with the specific points made by the poster in the a specific post and don’t have sufficient time to articulate myself.
Personally, even if I feel someone has crossed the line of behavior prescribed for MHR, I try to avoid saying anything — I’d much rather the admins sort it out. If it’s particularly egregious, I’ll flag the comment and move on. Occasionally, I admit, I’m human and get drawn into a few of the more trollish posts, but I really try hard not to feed them.
Generally, negativity is fine with me as long as there are valid points made and articulated well. If something inflammatory is said just to be argumentative, I may point it out and ask for more information from the poster so that I can respond intelligently (well, for me anyway!). I have no problem with curmudgeons — we need them to keep us honest, even if it’s only on a single issue. I’ve been known to be curmudgeonly (??) myself from time to time. We should all keep ballast in our heads, especially until we actually see what we have on the field this year. Those who remind us of that are champs in my book.
So it’s all good, at least from where I stand. But I’m a positive guy by nature. Hope it’s not too annoying to anyone. ^^
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I've ever used the +100000 thing before (not a big fan TBH)
But, damn, +10000000
=P
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
And I really don’t condone the use of LOLs or emoticons, but I can’t frakkin help it sometimes. ; )
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
Those little LOL’s and emoticons are the best part of this website. I don’t come here to debate and talk with people, I come here to find new little things I can use on Myspace’s.
lol’s, rofl’s, lmao’s, lmfao’s, ftw’s, fml’s, and omg’s rule my everyday e-vocabulary. They rule right along side using two "i"s in every other word. liike ii love iit. Oh, and emoticons, Don’t get me started. Those little faces make my life better! Have a great day. ;) :D :P
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
by Joe Medina on Apr 28, 2009 5:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh. I'll take the +9999999
and save the final +1 for the road.
As far as lols and emoticons go: they’re not my cup of tea either, but they’re too valuable in absence of vocal inflection. They’re the anti-ANGRY CAPS LOCK-GUY of the comment board world.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 8:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll wager that the Chicago #1 pick
that we still own is going to better than ours. I truly believe that.
I also looked at this whole draft (and CFA) from outside the bubble of draft day madness, and I believe you are spot on. We are a better team than the end of last year…..and by a LARGE margin.
Nolan is not an idiot. Give the man a chance to work with the people he obviously feels we already have.
Just my .02 :)
by Broncotodd on Apr 27, 2009 7:36 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Quite possible.
In-division, Chicago has a tougher road to hoe (Green Bay, Minnesota, Detroit) than Denver (San Diego, Kansas City, Oakland). That should amount to 2 more wins for Denver it the two teams are at all comparable, with 10 other games to fill the gap.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Ted.
Thanks for the thoughts. They were helpful.
by NedBronco on Apr 27, 2009 7:52 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post Ted. Rec'd
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by BShrout on Apr 27, 2009 7:57 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post Ted.
btw, I have an Aunt who is a little person and I think she is a heck of a lady. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 9:11 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Poor "Morans Guy"
He goes to protest Jim Moran (D-VA) and Moran’s supporters, makes a pretty clever sign when directed at Moran’s supporters. Forever now known as an idiot because only a few people ever remember the story behind it.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Apr 27, 2009 9:19 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh man, that's funny.
the sign, the mullet, the american flag bandanna, the Cardinal’s shirt… some things are just too good to be true. I should have known.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? I came across this picture last week....
and was under the impression from the source of it that this was just some random tea party guy from a couple weeks ago who can’t spell. Maybe the source got it wrong.
He really doesn’t look all that clever though.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should you check your source again
and retract your comments on him and apologize to that person if Darin H is correct?
*Words can fool men but Nature doesn't give a damn!*
by MadDogExtra on Apr 27, 2009 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am looking into it...
but it’s hard to tell what is true. I have already found that picture attributed to a rally in Milwaukee, and another in St. Louis. Since Congressman Moran is in Virginia, I would call those conflicting reports.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I think it’s from a St Louis protest (March 23, 2003 from what I can tell), but he was referring to Jim Moran. I think Jim Moran had just visited Iraq a little while before the start of the Iraq war (but I could be wrong, I’m going off of memory for that). I’m pretty sure that the sign was referring to Jim Moran either way. Don’t know how accurate this is.
It’s certainly not from the Tea Parties, found a link to the picture from April 2003
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Apr 27, 2009 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edited above
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are the man.
The major reasons that I hanged around MHR most of my times are due the highly nature of analytical thought process of the major contributors, editors representing in every pieces of works (which you are part of it) and the staffs’ integrity. Nothing is more evident and also solidify my above observations than those posts in draft days when emotion flares like the 4th of July’s fireworks.
This is the best site bar none and I’ve been around FO, CHFF in ages. Thanks for everything.
I’m a Niner fans of the Montana’s day and a Elway fan of Stanford days. Nowadays, I’m more like a NFL fan and I’m very intrigued of McDaniel moves. I believe you guys having a diamond at the HC position here.
Words can fool men but Nature doesn't give a damn!
by MadDogExtra on Apr 27, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and anybody hangs around Daily Kos regularly
and still could write analytical pieces like Styg50 is worth checking into.
Words can fool men but Nature doesn't give a damn!
by MadDogExtra on Apr 27, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're a diverse group.
Darin H and I traffic RedState.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's an excellent point as well
We all come from very different political backgrounds, but here we have a great opportunity to ignore all that stuff that divides us and enjoy each other’s intellects as peers and passionate fans. That’s such a great part of this site.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's WHY I frequent sports blogs.
To get away from politics. I get enough of it in real life; I want my sanity.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
politics........i used to care, but whats the point?
nothing ever changes….or even attempts change. lol stick to sports blogs..thats what i am doing now. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 10:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks TB
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on Apr 27, 2009 9:32 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
pure gold
i was taken back by the smith move but i can now start to see the logic behind the trade (thanks to the awesome contributers here) and i am 100% ready to see our young guys get out there and play football
read, rec’d and read again!
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
by BroncoJoe311 on Apr 27, 2009 9:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Jury is still out
on the front seven. I really like the Ayers pick, but am a little perplexed why we didn’t go for one of the strong LB’s in this draft. That would have just added cream to the pie so to speak. Overall I think this was a very good draft and the Broncos will reap the benefits of all these players. It did seem to me there was a lot of Special Team focus in picking up a few of these players and that is a good thing. The Broncos were weaker there than on defense in my opinion. BTW another great post TB.
by bchiper on Apr 27, 2009 9:40 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
if special team improves EVERYTHING improves...
With regards to ILB…..is there anyone in the draft that are better than what we have?
I will take the Stormin Mormon over any of the guys in the draft…..REY included!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LBs
There were some good LBs in the draft. I certainly would have been happy with a few of them but I think that you look at where our team sits and we have some interesting candidates at LB especially in the 3-4. I am not sure if for us the value was there… I mean you had to take Ayers when we did. I think the Moreno pick makes sense in terms of BPA. So then what… well I liked English and he went quickly. Trading back into the first would have been rough. I never liked Rey. So I see why it went the way it did.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'lll be honest, I am not upset with who we picked
I am more upset with what we gave up to get them and the value that was placed on guys. I just think that McD and Co. paniced and sold off some valuable assets for some guys that in all honesty are not as talented (IMO) as the guys coming out next year. As I said earlier, A. Smith may have been a balls out terriffic corner in college, but he has some physical limitations (slow and short) that will likely never make him nothing more than a No. 2 corner in this league, and trading away a 1st for at best a No. 2 corner seems foolish to me. Sometimes (many times) terrific college players don’t translate well to the NFL, if college was an indication of what you do in the pros then Chase Daniels would of been a 1st round pick and not an UFA. The blocking TE in the second was way too high (IMO) and likely could of been had with on of the 3rd rounders we had and I am guess we could of picked up another decent player in the 3rd. The QB in the 6th, I will give a pass on, since if he develops, then it will be well worth the pick next year, and it is a low risk high reward pick. Just seems like McDaniels and Co. overvalued this draft significantly, I look at the Pats draft and that was a masterpiece of not reaching, get good quality in later rounds, and getting positioned well for next year.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
by Broncoman on Apr 27, 2009 9:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you, BM
I was hoping for better “draft management” from the new regime. Hopefully we’ll see more of this next year.
by CoastalBronco on Apr 27, 2009 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You share the same concerns I did...
The trade for Quinn, the 2nd for a 1st trade, and also a lack of DL pick-ups had me scratching my head. And while I don’t mind the Moreno pick as much now … I was pretty upset at the time as to why McD didn’t draft Orakpo. I haven’t had time to read the uber amounts of info on the site yet to figure out if these head-scratchers are justified, but I guess this is all par for the course in what has been a really unusual offseason to date..
by tunga77 on Apr 27, 2009 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We shall see
Coach M was quite articulate and sharing in his interviews regarding the draft and why he did what he did. Clearly, there is a grand strategy and plan in place. Will see how it translates tactically in the coming year.
I am hopeful here. Better Special Teams are clearly warranted and they will absolutely impact field position for the better if they are improved. This helps both sides of the ball thereafter.
Stronger offense will assist in either getting ahead, catching up, or controlling the game tempo.
Better secondary will assist the Front Seven until we can get that at the strength we need to dominate. If you are going to have to defend the pass, best to have top flight secondary back there to do it.
Fingers crossed….
by Broncos Rule on Apr 27, 2009 9:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
ST&NO article
Nice job on the draft hangover. Here are my shorttakes:
Surprised that all three of the D choices I like were gone at 12 (Curry, Raji, Jackson), but Orakpo scares me. He is so built up and went from nowhere to somewhere in just a few short years that I am thinking untestable additive, like HGH. I don’t want to smear anyone, but with the 12th pick I just wasn’t comfortable with him. Good luck to Washington. Moreno would not have gotten to 18. I doubt that SD would have picked him despite all the talk, with both LT and Sproles on the roster. They can’t afford it without sacrificing elsewhere on the team. However, other teams would have traded up to pick Moreno thinking SD would pick him. I don’t know if Moreno is better than Wells or Donald Brown, but his record justifies a first round pick and he fits what Sunny McD likes to do on offense. Good for the Broncos.
I was and still am surprised at Ayers fast rise up the draft board and hope he is as good as people project. Maybe it was an early attitude thing that had him lower at first and maybe he is just now peaking and will explode on the NFL. Worth a shot.
I was beside myself when Smith was taken for next year’s first (our own), but after thinking about it, we could move up by packaging lower picks next draft. So, is Smith worth a package of lower picks next year? Heck yes. As far as our pick vs. Chicago’s, I think Chicago is going to have a lot of divisional trouble next year with Minnesota and Green Bay, and maybe Detroit will steal a win from Chicago. At any rate, Cutler will not have the stats with Chicago he did with Denver. Remember when Portis went to Washington? Chicago’s pick will be higher than Denver’s.
I was surprised Denver didn’t go after Brace in the 2nd or Maualuga/Laurinitis, but Brace was characterized as short-winded, good for initial burst and not much more, and Denver now has even more competition at linebacker than running back, so maybe Smith made sense.
After that, it looked like Sunny McD was going after fixing Denver’s abysmal turnover/takeaway stats. I think he did ok. I’ve seen a lot of teams with lesser talent do well merely because they had high takeaways. It makes sense.
Denver will surprise some teams next year.
Now the long, anxious wait until the season begins to see what we have.
by opinion8r on Apr 27, 2009 10:13 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
outstanding ted
i have “penciled” in my check for one of those outstanding bumper stickers
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
"We should have kept Seattle and dumped San Diego from the Division"
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 27, 2009 10:15 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok Ted I surrender
The most truthful yet positive minded statement that I must fully support
From the last day of the 2008 season, to now, is there any position group except QB where we are significantly less talented?
You are correct. We do have an improved team and after FA and the draft nothing less would be expected. I have focussed more about the questionable moves the new regime has made, rather than celebrate the improvements regardless of where the improvements have been made.
I am very pleased about the Defensive Backs and totally stoked about Knowshon. The receiver stable has improved and Ayers could be a dominate player in the NFL. Time to sit back and watch what Nolan and Nunnely can do to improve the front line pressure.
I still feel like I need a little Bailey’s in my coffee this morning, but here’s to 2009 and the Broncos.
Go Broncos!
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on Apr 27, 2009 10:21 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I wish I could give you more than a rec for this, Ted . . .
Your mixing in your good insight with your humor helps to make my day . . . one of the many reasons I come here.
Who was it now who said Dumervil and Crowder stepped in at OLB and looked as if they belonged there? And I, too,
believe Marcus Thomas will find DE to be particularly suited to his quickness and footwork. I’m looking forward to possibly a better season than many of us, including myself, excpected.
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
by AZDynamics on Apr 27, 2009 10:26 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
None other than Wesley Woodyard!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on Apr 27, 2009 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Coach :)
BTW, Ted, I put that picture in my sig on another board.
It’s a riot!! lol
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
by AZDynamics on Apr 27, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just doing a little trolling
But Im here to give a little love to your safety draftee Darcel McBath. Most Blogs including DoubleTNation are weighed down with much love (NTTAWWT) for Michael Crabtree and where Graham Harrell is gonna end up as a free agent signee. I thought I would drop by here to with Darcel and the Bronc’s good luck in 09.
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 27, 2009 10:37 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Opinion and feedback aren't trolling around here
Welcome, and come back and chat anytime
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
your sarcasm detector must be switched off
the term was used in light of the above conversation between ButteBronco, Boydy, BroncoBear, and Dashiell
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 27, 2009 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
TP
Was this just mis-posted? I have not idea what discussion you refer to.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope
I dont think you recognized my sarcasm when i referred to my own shout-out post as “Trolling” thats all.
It was in reference to the discussion on trolling started by Hooper and Ted Bartlett you and the other aforementioned were involved in.
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 27, 2009 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Odd, that
Why are you involving me? I haven’t started anything regarding trolling, and stayed out of the ‘fray’ as it were. I don’t recognize your sarcasm because you’re dragging me into your own debate. Other than posting a few light comments, I stayed out. Why don’t we both do the same?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, relax
I never took a side or am partaking in any debate. I never said you started anything. I simply comedically referred to my post as “trolling” in light of the previous discussion on trolling in the hope that people would read the word trolling in my title, read my post and then see a good natured shout out.
I will say again, good luck to Darcel McBath and the Bronc’s in 09
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 28, 2009 8:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I vote him special teams captain in 09
and we ahven’t even played a game yet!! Can’t wait to see a C on the rookie jersey!
(Do specialt teams captains get a C?? I thought Elam had one, but last year Leach was cap’n and I don’t remember him having one…)
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 28, 2009 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Leach?!?!
didnt he get traded to the Cardinals? We had a lot of fun with that one over at Double T Nation. LOL!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 28, 2009 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted, answer me this.
is there anything you didn’t like about the past few days? I see nothing.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 10:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't thrilled with the Moreno pick when it happened...
but I have started to come around to it. He’s clearly a good player, and in the end, I am a sucker for good players. With the McBath pick, I am going on faith because I haven’t seen that much of him, but I believe that a deep-half coverage safety has been a big need forever, especially the way the NFL game is played now. The box safety is a dying breed like the fullback.
I favored a few other QBs over Brandstater, but I think it’s a reasonable pick. Schlueter is a guy I am unfamiliar with, but he sounds small to me.
I loved the Ayers and Alphonso Smith picks, and the rest of it falls between liking it and thinking it’s at least reasonable. I think the Broncos stuck to their board, and I prefer the best player available approach over the long haul.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you have no reservations about the lack of front 7 movement? the fact that the only front 7 guy we did take is a 4-3 guy that projected as a 4-3 guy and has character issues? the massive overpayment in trade of our own first round pick next year?
no one has complaints about adding talent, by and large. How could you? It’s not like adding players will hurt in the vast majority of cases.
So by focusing on the upside of all these playing and using the fact that we added talent as justification for a good draft, you’re missing what should be evaluated about a draft: the strategy. And our strategy was this haphazard BPA available thing — even though our BPA was way way off what the vast majority of people thought — that ignored all needs completely. As HT himself said in the draft threads, any position taken to extremes is ridiculous. The Broncos took BPA to massive extremes the last 2 days — even to the point of mortgaging the future — and I am very, very concerned about the ramifications.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair points but
my point of view on this (not sure I’m speaking for Ted but I think he made this point above) is to just take DTs to fill a need even if you don’t think those players are very good is not necessarily a good draft strategy. In fact that’s very possibly what went wrong in the draft two years ago. Not that all those DL we took are busts, hoping at least a couple of them really pay off this coming season, but it seemed like there were questions about all those guys but we needed DL help so they took them. This was not a strong DL draft, especially not strong at DT, so to just take a player that you feel you’re going to end up cutting is a waste. My feeling is the Broncos really didn’t like most of the DTs after Raji was off the board. And they do really like Ayers.
I still would’ve liked to have seen them take another LB though, given it was a strong LB class overall, rather than one of the DB picks. That’s the one thing I’d definitely criticize (not that any of us know anything for sure until some time has passed.)
So I question that, but I think in a week DT and DL class that shouldn’t be blamed on Denver, imho. But the DL is still a fair concern.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it hard to believe that we didn’t like ANY front 7 guys in this draft but Ayers. Orakpo and Raji are top 15 picks in any draft, no doubt!
Maybe we hated something about Orakpo. fine, I have no idea what you could hate about him that you didn’t hate about Ayers, but whatever. Maybe it was just that we REALLY wanted Knowshon Moreno. I guess I can see that too.
but why not trade up for Raji? Jacksonville WANTED to move down, and we clearly had little qualms about moving up for players we liked. The 79th + the 12th would likely have been enough. The 18th + the 48th maybe too, if we really were that sold on Moreno? Maybe we hated him too.
this seems a little ridiculous though, doesn’t it? here we are trading up and reaching for players all draft long and yet we hate EVERY DL, our greatest need? surely there was something more? it just doesn’t make sense.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it may be that few, if any, of the DT prospects were significantly better than what we already have
That may not be the case next year.
by CoastalBronco on Apr 27, 2009 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I don’t see the Broncos having reached in this draft — other than the TE, who I do like but I think that was a bit early for him.
That was my main point, what CBronco says above is true, next year’s draft is supposed to be a lot stronger on DT. In what is unanimously agreed was a weak year for DTs why is it hard to believe that they liked what they had in camp already more than most of the other guys out there. I’m also not the only one who liked Ayers better than Orakpo. I guess time will tell on that one though. The question of why not trade up for Raji is a good one though. Yeah, assuming they liked him that much. They sounded pretty set on picking two players in the first round this year though. Maybe they couldn’t move up there without giving up one of this year’s first rounders?
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Consider that perhaps we didn't really NEED more DL players
and the Broncos considered Ayers the best prospect on the Dline for several reasons:
1)He is a great guy. (Raji has character and motivation concerns) This isn’t about trying to create a church group, it is about building a lockerroom that takes care of itself, giving the coaches and front office people more time to dothings like coach and scout players and teams. All the talent in the world isn’t worth an ounce of wasted time, as the Cutler trade proves.
2)He is smart. (another knock against several of the top prospects like Brace and Raji) This includes taking care of his body to avoid injury and other problems, being able to adapt with limited time or resources, and being able to understand quicker the message of his coaches, which will aid him in taking care of himself in the NFL.
3) He was one of a VERY SMALL handful of players who suited what Denver is going to do on defense. (Raji for example is a really big one-gap DT, not a NT, and has never played NT. Is that enough to want him? The answer (from the Broncos) is no.) This includes lining up consistently on a particular shoulder of a guard or tackle (McD indicated he was the only DE in the draft who could also line up on the shoulder of the center in pass rushing situations). We have a lot to learn still about what Denver is going to do from game to game with regard to alignments and responsibilities.
By Denver’s standard of intelligence, character, and “fit”, Ayers was the best Dlineman in the draft. And they got him. That seems like putting a pretty good foot forward to me, and not “hating” every DL. They targeted the best, and they got him. And then they felt comfortable addressing another need, which in hindsight does indeed prove to be glaring, our DBs and special teams. In any given game the team will be lucky to start more than 5 down linemen, but 7 DBs is standard. We now have 15 down lineman and 13 DBs. Without the 5 DBs we picked up this weekend? We would barely have enough for a game day roster. And this isn’t even considering the coming contract negotiations with Champ, and Dawkins looming retirement.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
1) Character? from http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/prospects/robert_ayers.html
The biggest issue Ayers is going to face is based around an issue during his freshman season. There was an incident that involved an original charge of aggravated assault that ended in a guilty plea to a lesser charge. By all accounts he has matured from that incident, but he will still have to answer questions about it.
that doesn’t scream character, that screams character ISSUES.
2) Where are you getting this? he scored a 25 and is termed “not exactly coachable by ”http://patschowder.com/2009/04/24/pats-chowder-draft-profile-robert-ayers/" >sources.
3) a 4-3 end, that didn’t have good projectability by all accounts to 3-4 systems suits us? …how? by gaining 20 pounds and potentially killing his quickness, as McDaniels says he wants to do?
Your conclusions seem based on wishing and hoping, not reality.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm at school at Tennessee and have been for a few years.
I can at least offer some insight into the character issues.
Ayers was immature when he entered college. Very immature. He joined onto a Vols team that had character issues across the board (look up Kelley Washington) which only aggravated things. More disastrous than that one off-field incident was his unwillingness to take his academics seriously – a problem that lasted well into his sophomore year.
His turnaround was twofold. First, many of the bad eggs around him began to fall by the wayside, either by slacking themselves out of a shot at the NFL or by finding various ways to earn suspensions and lose valuable college playing time. Second (and more importantly, most likely), fellow defenseman Inquoris “Inky” Johnson – a defensive back of immense talent – went down to career-ending injury in 2006. Inky was utterly adored by his teammates as a pure class act and has handled himself incredibly well (he’s now a grad student working for the football team).
Among the many things Inky did during rehab was to keep on his teammates and motivate them to give everything they had. Long story short, Inky got Ayers to see that he was on the verge of losing his opportunies education, NFL, etc.) and helped him straighten up. Ayers attributes much of his turnaround to Inky, who kept on him the whole time.
The last two years of his career, Ayers has been pure class at UT. It took a year for him to convince the coaches that he deserved to start, but that’s what he finally did his senior season. He was also a team captain and the most prominently featured player on football advertisements prior to the ’08 season (more so than Eric Berry).
It’s fair to question his character. I hope this information helps fill in the void, though. Yes, I’m a Vols homer, but I’ve seen the kind of substantiation I like to see in a changed life; a support system, a change in life patterns, and a chance to impart that change to others.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
thanks for this. I think he’s got a decent shot, though I would have preferred Raji, and I hope he does well now that he’s a Bronco.
Nice to know from an insider that he is a character question though, and we can put this high character myth to rest. Maybe he will continue to become that character guy, but he’s got a lot to prove.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he admits exactly that.
From what I’ve been able to see, I think he’ll turn out quite alright, character-wise. He’s been down that road before and I think he doesn’t want to go back. I’m a bit too busy to dig up the articles, but the local digi-fishwraps had quotes from him saying he answered a lot of character questions when talking to NFL teams (e.g. at the Combine).
As long as people are willing to be satisfied if he does turn out to be a good egg, then I can’t see any harm in waving at least a yellow flag on the issue right now.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really liked how he owned his past in his press conference
I’m hoping the best for him.
by CoastalBronco on Apr 27, 2009 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the kind of jab I'm talking about.
“Your conclusions seem based on wishing and hoping, not reality.”
Questioning someone’s motive, or orientation to reality, is when you approach the edge. BTW, Styg was your biggest supporter when folks were flagging your comments.
If you are hoping to go to medical school (yes, I did a little research), a little tact and bedside manner will take you a long way.
Best of luck by the way.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a jab? there’s nothing close to a personal attack there! good grief, you’re jumping at shadows! how is calling unsubstantiated and unbacked arguments wishing and hoping anything more than
i have never wanted to go to med school, btw. This is the kind of jab I’m talking about — unsubstantiated, personal attacks because i disagree with you.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was told (perhaps incorrectly)...
…by a member that you had e-mail correspondance with that you were in your late teens, in college or recently graduated, and was interested in med school. That’s not a jab, it’s something to be proud off. If it isn’t true, it’s a lofty enough goal that anyone would praise it (unless you hate physicians). I even wished you luck (which I don’t take back, whatever your goal).
You questioned Styg’s orientation to reality. You’re implying that he is delusional. If you can’t understand that, then nothing that anyone has said will help you. That’s unfortunate.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have had no email correspondence with anyone from here. the jab and personal attack was that i am tactless and would be a terrible doctor. it may be fun for you to think anyone that disagrees with you is some pimply faced teen to mock for dreams of being a doctor, but i am not. my handle has nothing to do with my personal life.
Look, I could care less what some internet drop-of-a-hat banhammer wielder — one that has the audacity to attempt to research my personal history for calling a POTENTIAL MOVE a stupid move and disagreeing with him about a sports team we both love — thinks of me, but you’re applying a huge double standard here.
I said NOTHING about styg, and I think he and the other guys here, including you and MHR university which I learned much from, do a great job for the record. I said his CONCLUSIONS were wishful thinking. It’s no attack on him whatsoever, just stating that I disagree with him and why.
If I had called him a delusional person in general? THATS a jab, and a personal attack.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reply to thedoctor
Here is what my conclusions are based on:
1)Hooper did an awesome job of laying this out, but you don’t have to be an insider to get a good picture of Ayers story arc through college. His last two years of solid character, work ethic, pride, productivity, and purposefulness warrant the standing of proof, i.e. two solid, consistent years of high character allow me to call him a high character guy. He gets it, and any things he says and does at this point backs it up. Were you able to watch his press conferences? Additional proof of the kind of guy he is. Were you able to watch McDaniel’s press conferences? Qualified testimony to Ayer’s character, which doesn’t warrant being dismissed or obfuscated. Don’t confuse what he IS with what he WAS.
2) Scored 25 must refer to the wonderlic, but I wouldn’t know, the test is worthless without a significant amount of context. In my experience those kinds of tests tend to measure how well people do on tests, not how bright they are, or how prinicipled they are or how well they think in essentials (the hallmark of intellectual independence, and in turn intellectual efficacy.) Proof of the latter is, as they say, in the pudding. He was easily the best DE technician in the draft, which means using his hands and arms, bending at the waist properly, using his height to his advantage, etc. He was also extremely versatile, a testament to the abiltiy to learn multiple positions. Both things require significant smarts, and again, we have McDaniels testimony, based on his and the scouts’ evaluations of gametape and interviews withe the young man.
3)Listen to the press conference again. Mcdaniels states that Ayers could add weight, in repsonse to a question from a reporter, but then quickly dismissed the need for Ayers to add weight. If you have another reference where McDaniels states that he wants Ayers to bulk up and play slower, please post it. As to this
a 4-3 end, that didn’t have good projectability by all accounts to 3-4 systems suits us
all accounts subsumes far too many accounts, ranging from Mayock, to Kirwan to Scott Wright who felt that Ayers projected very well to a 3-4 system. Ayers has experience in the A gap, the B gap and in the C gap, and he has the technical knowhow and experience to line up as a “1” technique, a “3” technique and a “4” and “5” tech. This led to two accounts of him: those who felt like he could do any of those roles, and those who felt like he wasn’t specialized enough.
I think there is plenty of reality in there upon which to base my conclusions.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for coming back and discussing this without getting weird about it. there was no insult intended for the record, and by responding here I’m glad to see we can handle a discussion like adults without, well, getting off track. there was no reason for the above with HT imo, but I’m not backing down either. :)
anyways.
1) I hope you’re right, but I think there’s still hoping occurring here. A guy that’s been arrested has a FAR greater chance of being arrested again. Hard to call a guy with stats pulling against him that hard a high character guy, that’s all I’m saying. He’s also got a lot of things about being uncoachable. Again, I hope I’m wrong…but it’s a hope.
2) I would say those qualities you list are more skills, but that’s just semantics. If his skills like using his arms equate to smarts for you, than you’re exactly right.
To me, smarts are more about mental speed and toughness on something like a Wonderlic, which is more indicative of mental performance under pressure than anything — what I would call football smarts. He did average, but nothing that screamed brilliance is all I’m saying.
Bottom line we have different definitions of this.
3) As long as we’re busting out experts, they don’t all feel that way:
He is a true 4-3 end
But you’re right, I’m probably overblowing this concern, especially if you’re right about him staying at his current weight. I felt pretty sure after reading transcripts that they wanted him to be a 34DE at 20 lbs, but OLB sounds much better.
Thanks for taking the time to support your view, this was what I wanted to hear.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 5:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a thought
i hate that this table is not gonna come out right. In looking at the way the pats spend thre money…they spend lotsa money on DE and DT…and if Jedi learned that…there is like totally not a chance he is gonna throw money at guys who arent gonna be on the team in a couple of years. And…they dont throw lots of money at linebackers either. Just sayin
Pre-Draft and Pre THE Trade
Den NE
CB 3.7 1.3
DE 0.9 1.8
DT 0.5 1.0
LB 1.8 1.2
OL 1.1 1.2
P/K 0.3 0.7
QB 3.8 2.5
RB 0.7 1.8
S 1.5 1.3
TE 0.7 0.7
WR 2.0 1.2
MHR...and proud of it!
by MHRsGirl on Apr 27, 2009 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting thought there. Thanks MHRsGirl!!
Champ…I want him to retire a Bronco darn it.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thedoctor
If character is your issue (and your hit against Ayers), I don’t understand the love for Raji.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
no issue with character per se, just pointing out that Ayers is not what people claim he is — high character. And that McDaniels and his “priority” of high character seems…selectively applied at best.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that's a fair statement!
See that’s what many of us here are trying to say. If you want to point out inconsistencies like the above go for it. That’s what makes this a great communitiy. And , for the record, I agree with you on that point. There is a lot of selective bias on both sides of any of these discussions.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 27, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
By all accounts I've read
Not that I KNOW, but have read, is that he turned the corner character wise after that incident in his freshman year.
And in all honesty, who among us has not gotten in a tussle once or twice in our lives, especially at a party. As for the intellgence part, he was dumb enough to get caught so you may be on to something there.
Mayock, who I believe is far better then Kiper and right there with McShay, felt that Ayers was the best D line prospect in the draft, so I don’t think he was a reach. Much of what I’ve read is that he’s even being projected at OLB over DE which I find surprising.
However I agree that if they were willing to give up the 3rds for a TE, why not use at least one of those to trade up to get Raji whom I’m sure they really liked. Maybe Jak didn’t want to trade once Monroe got there….I know they really like him a lot.
Finally I don’t think Al. Smith was a massive reach when many had him as a first round talent (Mayock had him as the best DB in the draft), and we definitely had a need at CB. I think he’ll be a fantastic nickel due to his range and smarts in reading the play. Is he tall enough to play on the outside? Who knows but lord knows I’m tired of guys like Manning and Rivers destrying our nickel DB’s every year.
by RudyR on Apr 27, 2009 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
What makes you so certain
that Jacksonville wanted to move down? How do you know that they weren’t set on drafting one of the top 3 OTs, and after the first 2 flew off the board they were unwilling to trade down from #8?
You are presuming to know all of the facts as your basis for saying that Denver chose poorly with Moreno. But you don’t have all of the facts. None of us do.
Maybe Denver DID try to trade up and was rebuffed once the two Tackles were gone. How about considering that possibility?
by Douglas A. Lee on Apr 27, 2009 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very possible
Especially since the top three tackles all could have been rated differently by each team. For all we know the Jags were ecstatic that the best tackle fell to them at 8.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
by BroncoJoe87 on Apr 27, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're looking at the same thing as I am...
and seeing it completely differently. Which is fine, I guess. I’m not in the arguing business, I’m just in the saying what I think business, and I did that here.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s too bad, because your position could use some defense. liking everything is a trademark of homer-ing.
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a fine line seperating homers from the doom and gloomers...
It’s my opinion that anyone who says player X is far superior to Y is a “koran” :) (I kid). This works either way, whether it’s in a positive way or a negative way. The same goes for questioning draft strategy in my book. There is so much work that goes into this process, watching hours of film, interviewing players, working them out, evaluating your current roster, etc. It’s just not something that most people are in a position to be either overly supportive of or overly critical of. Sure, it’s fun to give your opinion and discuss certain aspects or ramifications of picks, but I find it more than a little silly when people get so worked up about it.
This draft is either going to work or it isn’t. We’ll see in the next couple weeks after the first mini camp. I can remember players and coaches were freaking out about Clady and Royal from the get-go last year. If it is abysmal failure or a rousing success, I still do not feel like anyone on here could say I told you so either, but we all know that’s coming down the pike.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
terrible typo, sorry. I meant to say "moran", not "koran". Wow.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Apr 27, 2009 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's ok.
We’ve had some heated debates on the site, what’s wrong with injecting religion?
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
<----shudders
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Apr 27, 2009 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see anything you liked?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure, and i said so multiple times if you’d been looking.
Alphonso Smith is a great guy, a huge talent, and I’m glad we got him. I disagree with the how, of course, but he’s a good player.
Knowshon Moreno is going to be a stud. Though I still think there was equivalent value and les need for this pick, it’s still great to have that guy.
Should I continue? I liked the QB we took, some of our CFA signings, the ND safety I got to watch a lot and he’s awesome….
by thedoctor on Apr 27, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
your sarcasm detector must be switched off
the term was used in light of the above conversation between ButteBronco, Boydy, BroncoBear, and Dashiell
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Apr 27, 2009 10:47 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought you meant "trolling" as in
you were fishing ;-) Mmmm… fish…
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
…Salmon….ummm…
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just watched tape of the ESPN Draft coverage
I’d watched some of the draft on my computer via the NFLN while at my g/f’s, and taped the ESPN coverage just in case. So I missed much of what people here were referring to. All I can say is Steve Young is hilarious. But not intentionally. Not to bring up the whole Cutler saga thing again but that was basically his perspective on the Broncos, that they are now 100% terrible minus Cutler. Again, fine, criticize losing him or how it was handled, but he was so biased towards QBs in general that it was kind of nauseating to listen to him. Then there was Keyshawn… never mind him.
Then there was Chris Mortensen’s error-filled report on the Broncos and new coaches in the league which said nothing of interested and called Josh McDaniels “Josh Freeman”. Then there was Chris Berman’s insightful commentary on the state of the Broncos: “Wow. The Broncos, they really have changed huh? Wow.” Thanks Chris.
They were so bad that they started to make Mel Kiper sound like the voice of reason. (At least he liked Ayers.) Anyway, I stopped watching after the first round. Let me know if I missed anything. :-/
NFLN for sure next year.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 10:49 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Young
Ya Young was driving me nuts the whole day. “You MUST have a solution” …um Steve, we have two veteran QBs. I don’t see how the better “solution” would be to blow all our picks to move up and grab a QB with a better name.
He definitely sees things from a QB perspective.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
by Kfustud on Apr 27, 2009 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Young
a low round draft pick? I could be wrong cause I was definitely not around then but I think I remember reading that somewhere. Why then would he think our solid veteren QB’s don’t cut it? I was impressed last season by Orton and I really think he’ll have a good year, even if he’s not as good as our previous QB.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
by BroncoJoe87 on Apr 27, 2009 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Young actually started in the USFL. He signed a record 10-year, $40 million contract with the LA Express of the now-defunct league in 1984. After the league folded, he signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1985 after being the first player selected in the year’s supplemental draft. Then the Bucs stunk and he was traded to the Niners where the rest is history.
An unusual path to say the least. I think his sympathy lies more with QBs just in general, mindlessly, than based on where they come from.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on
Thanks for the history lesson. I remembered that he got to SF by way of TB but I didn’t know how he got to TB. What your saying makes sense and I think I’ve seen it from Young before, regardless of the situation he has got the QB’s back.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
by BroncoJoe87 on Apr 27, 2009 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post!
IMO we are pretty set at NT. Fields will most likely start, Parker will be a big body back up, and Carlton Powell is the future. The knock on Powell last year was his inability to get to the quarterback…but his strengths are holding at the point of attack and playing amazing run stuffing D. That is what we need in a NT. Rec’d.
by 8r0nc8 on Apr 27, 2009 11:45 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I'm not on board with
is the following:
The Panthers got killed last April for trading this year’s #1 to Philadelphia for Jeff Otah last season, and he was the best all-around RT in the NFL as a rookie.
The fundamental difference here is that the future #1 was leveraged for the #19 pick in the current draft, implying that a future #1 is worth significantly more than a middle of the 2nd round pick as you have stated a number of times. It’s a moot point now because the deal is done and the player received is Alphonso Smith – who a year or two now may or may not have been worth the trade. The problem I have with it is that the team potentially could have gotten more value from the pick. Again – maybe Smith turns into a better player than the 15 guys picked in front of him. I sure hope so.
The rest of the post – i’m on board with. I agree that in most cases this team is much better than it was 6 months ago, and I might even venture to say that they may be better at the quarterback position. There will likely be fewer ill-advised balls thrown down field into double and triple coverage with Orton at the helm. For as great an arm as Jay had – the decision making was questionable at times.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
by Hizilla on Apr 27, 2009 11:49 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder then if the Broncos couldn't convince anybody for a more equitable trade.
If they were worried about Smith going to somebody before Denver’s draft position and they wanted him badly enough, they may have been forced into overpaying (and even significantly) for the ability to get their guy. As much as we like to ponder equity, it’s not always there to be had in the heat of draft day, especially if that meant the Seahawks would risk losing out on a guy that they really wanted.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean that’s really what it comes down to – the Broncos were willing to give up a 1st round pick for a guy that they considered a 1st round talent. In their eyes the deal was worth it so they took it. I hope they were right.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
by Hizilla on Apr 27, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft day trades are notoriusly unequal....
Yahoo had a good article up a few years ago…the Moss trade comes to mind. The truth of the matter is we will never know what really happened behind the scenes. I’m still against the trade even though I like the player. To assume that McD didn’t try other things first weould be wrong. For all we know we could have been targeting completely different players and couldn’t get them so had to go to other targets. McD did say in his presser that his board was picked pretty bare after the first day. So who knows. Here’s hoping it all works out.
by T.Dot_Bronco on Apr 27, 2009 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, the Panthers traded this year's 1st and last year's 4th rounder
so it’s not quite the same valuation.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My mistake
although i’d wager that it would take more than a 4th rounder to move up from 35 to 19. Either way as hooper says – they got their guy and were satisfied with the trade. Hope Smith pans out well – i’ll sure be rooting for the guy. He came off very well spoken in most of the interviews with him over the weekend.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
by Hizilla on Apr 27, 2009 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carolina's trade V. Denver's Trade with a stab at omniscience
Carolina traded the #28 this year and the #43(2nd round) #109 (4th round) last year to move up to #19 from #43 (24 slots).
Total point value=1206pts=50.25 points per slot moved.
Denver Traded the #1-#32 next year for the #37 pick this year (a difference of between 5-36 slots)
Total points=between 3000-590pts=between 600-16 points per slot moved. That is a pretty wide range, with draft rape on either end, one for us, one for them.
If we assign the middle ground: the 16th pick next year, or in other words wholly average, then the comparison looks thusly:
Carolina paid 1206pts (50.25 pts per slot moved) to acquire Jeff Otah.
Denver paid 1000pts (47.61 pts per slot moved) to acquire Alphonso Smith.
If that isn’t following precedent I don’t know what is. That seems emminently fair to me, considering that Seattle is risking a major difference in value if we do even better than average.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, that photo . . .
it warms the heart of all baseball Cardinals fans like me . . . BLARP!!!!
Anyway.
I’m taking my brother’s approach to how he prognosticates his NY Giants every year (AKA: Buy Low, there’s no way you’ll be disappointed) and I’ll say that the Orange and Blue probably will be 4-12 next year. But with the pick of Moreno . . . at least it’ll be an exciting 4-12 if it comes to that. I REALLY liked that pick, even if it obviously sacrifices defensive talent.
"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields
by Donut King on Apr 27, 2009 11:51 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice Post Ted...gave me some good laughs.
A point about optimism: I generally remain optimistic about the Broncos; however, I also enjoy a thorough and honest analysis of all things football. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always mean agreeing with what is happening. As an analogy, I love my wife and support her. That does not mean that if she decides to take up smoking crack that I’m going to support that. That’s how I feel about the Broncos…and, frankly, some of their decisions lately seem sort of crackhead-esque. I think there are some Broncos fans that would try to justify it if the Broncos had drafted ten punters. I’m sure there would be fanposts explaining why it was such a ‘brilliant’ strategy and we all just don’t understand it. I’m not that fan. But I am as diehard as they come.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 27, 2009 11:58 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think anyone should be ‘attacked’ for disagreeing or saying they don’t think the Broncos did something particularly well. However, the guys that come on here and start calling other members ‘morons’ and ‘idiots’ etc. should not be tolerated.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Apr 27, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cookie
You were one of the biggest pessimists about the Broncos draft strategy this past weekend. You also made fair points, and backed your statements with reason. You were also respectful.
You were a perfect example of what a smart fan is, and what a troll isn’t.
I salute you for giving great arguments to a olid position, that a few unfortunate souls couldn’t do without name calling. You’re a class guy, and deserve a cookie.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
solid, not "olid"
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
DEAR GOD!!!!
What a melt-down of an organization of epic proportions! We trade out franchise Quarterback for what has not become Moreno, Alphonso Smith, and Quinn, seriously? Back to back years with multiple first round picks, all the flexibiliy in the world and this is what we have to show for it. So with all the felxibility McMoron looked at the team and said “we gave up 40 billion yards rushing last year, btter get a RB and some OG’s”! Are you f-ing kidding me. We should have traded up to get Raji, we should have traded Champ and at least got something for him while we are rebuilding, why make him waste away on a crap team, he still would have brought in a 1st round pick plus something else. We should have traded DJ for a second or third round pick, and we should have traded Scheffler for a 4th or 5th rounder. This was a total and utter disaster, McDaniels and Xanders need to be run out of town immediately!
by BIGA00 on Apr 27, 2009 12:28 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Translated:
I’m skeptical. The draft did not appear to address the most vital needs of the team, and I fear we’re going to be susceptible to more of the same problems as last year.
;-D
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
You said it Gromit. BIGA, I’m glad you’re not overreacting or anything, at least.
by underdog on Apr 27, 2009 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Just a very passionate life long Bronco fan (possibly with a little bit too much passion)!
by BIGA00 on Apr 27, 2009 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No such thing
as too much Bronco passion!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 27, 2009 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
so what are you saying?
by T.Dot_Bronco on Apr 27, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my God Ted!
I just finished and posted my own recap. We agreed 100% on the “futures” was of looking at the draft (though I used a lottery analogy).
It makes sense that the 2 Xs and Os staffers on the site see it the same way, but to see it so closely…
just “wow”!
A thousand recs to you. Not only do I buy your thoughts, but this is your best article to date!
MASTERPIECE work my friend.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 12:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, funny...
I just finished and posted my own recap. We agreed 100%…
plus
MASTERPIECE work my friend.
I know what you mean, but that got a smile out of me.
by Hooper on Apr 27, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you know...
but despite our 100% agreement on draft approach, you’ll find plenty in our articles that don’t agree.
However, YES, my article is a masterpiece too.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Apr 27, 2009 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fully Agree
If Denver has a first round grade on a player this year and the player is there now, and they have a need now, I don’t see the issue in trading a first rounder next year.
There IS an opportunity cost to sitting on a pick for a year, especially since they’ve graded Al. Smith as a first rounder and the best corner in the draft.
I’m glad someone has made this point, however those with the most airtime in the press don’t seem to want to look past the fact that they think this is a poor draft, ergo its a bad decision. Does that mean every player is a poor player? No.
Excellent synopsis by the writer.
by RudyR on Apr 27, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point
McD actually alluded to that during the presser. Sounds like the Seahawks were insisting on receiving our pick (not the one we got from the Bears), and we felt strongly enough about the player that we didn’t really feel it was worth quibbling about. The pundits are having a field day with it, but I kind of like McD’s moxie — it’s as if he feels that we might get more value from the Bears’ pick. Wouldn’t that be a hoot if it turned out to be so? (Not that I expect it will)
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2009 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the kind words HT
It means a lot coming from you
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Apr 27, 2009 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Xs and Os aren't on your levels
But I rec’d the articles just the same ;-) Great work, both of you
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Apr 27, 2009 2:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Man, if the posters got paid for rec's on their posts...
Pretty much all my favorite posters would be millionaires…I tried explaining to my brother how great and addicting this site is, but he swears DP’s site is where it’s at…Oh and he says he gets his news emailed to him from the Denver Broncos official NFL website, making it better and faster because it’s just official.
Some people just need to drink some Kool Aid and relax.
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
by Joe Medina on Apr 28, 2009 5:49 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Next Game
Web Stuff
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
