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An exercise in value

There seems to be some consternation on mine and several others here on the whole Moreno pick.  While I have heard arguments both ways, some I agree with and some I don’t, I thought we might want to do an exercise in what if, to see if we truly agree with the pick.

 

Granted this scenario has no basis in reality so it is more of a exercise in trying to determine if the love or hate of the pick is do more to a love or hate of HC McDaniel and Co., or if it really is based on not liking the selection.

 

Lets for a moment assume that Mike Shanahan had not been fired and that Jay Cutler had not been traded.  Lets also assume that Shanahan had not pursued the free agent RBs that we had, maybe he signed Lamont Jordan, but he had not signed three FA RBs, which I doubt he would of.  We could also assume that Mike Shanahan may have kept his defensive coordinator or maybe hired a new one, but in likelihood, we would be running a 4-3 defense come next season.   Now lets fast-forward to the draft.  We don’t have the extra picks because Jay would still be here and I am assuming working under a new contract.  What would happen or be your view if we had selected Moreno with the 12th overall pick and not gotten a defensive player?  Would you be happy, or would you be livid?  I am guessing the majority of the reaction would be toward the livid side since Mike Shanahan had shown that year in and year out he could mine RB talent from later rounds in the draft, why ignore the defense with the 12th overall pick would be the main reasoning?  Some would hail it as a brilliant pick in that we need a primary back with talent and getting by with scrap heap RB’s culled from the depths of the UFA wire has bitten us in the butt too many times this past couple of years.  

 

Now lets reverse the pick, lets say we took the best defensive player available (you fill in the blank Jenkins, Orakpo, Ayers, Cushing, Mr. Potato Head, etc…), and lets say we followed the same MO of previous drafts and maybe got a RB in the 4th to 7th round, maybe get an UFA RB like Ian Johnson and/or Jeremiah Johnson, what would your grade be then.  Would you say Shanahan is doing what he should and addressing the defense and looking for better production from a RB in lower rounds?  Or would you be critical that they let Moreno go over maybe what would be graded as an overall inferior defensive player?  

 

I guess my point being is that sometimes I think we get blinded (one way or another) based on who is making the pick, and not look at the pick itself in the greater context of the overall draft and what you try to accomplish.  The whole need versus want argument that TSG put forward earlier is an interesting analogy of how to draft.  The draft is obviously an inexact science at best, but I think when  we look to evaluate a player, we really need to look at the overall context, was this the best overall value or could we get close to the same value later and address other needs going a different direction.   I think some believe that if you are critical of selection, it means that you don’t like the player or had someone else you wanted, for me this really has nothing to do with that.  This really comes into was this the best value for that selection in the greater good of the team.  I think that is really where the debate needs to be framed. 

If Moreno turns out to be the second coming of LT then I would whole heartedly agree that this was an excellent selection; but that is a slim chance.  If he has a better than average career but maybe is never a top tier RB, then it was a wasted pick (IMO).  It is hard to argue that you cannot get as close to as good of production from lower round RB’s, we have proven it and most other teams have followed suit in that philosphy.  Look at last years top 15 rushing leaders and you see an interesting mix of where guys were selected:

 

Adrian Peterson – 1st Round

Michael Turner – 5th Round

DeAnglo Williams – 1st Round

Clinton Portis – 2nd Round

Thomas Jones – 1st Round

Steve Slaton – 3rd round

Matt Forte – 2nd Round

Chris Johnson – 1st Round

Ryan Grant – UFA

LaDainian Tomilinson – 1st Round

Brandon Jacobs – 4th Round

Steven Jackson – 1st Round

Fred Gore – 3rd Round

Marshawn Lynch – 1st Round

Derrick Ward – 7th Round   

 

Obviously a lot of 1st rounders, but also just as many later round guys, you also have to ask what the value of some of the 1st round guys really are when you see that four were on playoff teams others were on average to horrible teams..

 

For the record, I hope Moreno defies the odds and becomes an LT or AP type of player, the views are many on him.  Lets face it, every RB is going to have some detractors coming out (Adrian Peterson was injury prone and took too much punishment and LT was a small school guy with inflated numbers), Moreno is going to be no different in that aspect in that he will have proponents and detractors.  The question ultimately will be not whether he is a good player or not, it will be was the pick a better value for the team long term?

Poll
Was selecting Moreno the best value?
Yes, he was the BPA, and will add tremendously to the offense long term
51 votes
No, RB's can be found throughout the draft, we had other fish to fry
4 votes
No more debate, I want the season to start.
13 votes

68 votes | Poll has closed

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

2 recs  |  Comment 19 comments

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I voted no more debate

He’s here, he’s on our team, lets just get this thing started already. Going over and over the draft is counterproductive and I’m ready to just lay it to rest.

We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin

by solace on Apr 29, 2009 12:16 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

+ 1

Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance

by bradley on Apr 29, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Statistically, selecting in the first has a higher probability of success.

7 of the fifteen were in the first round.

2 in the second

2 in the third

1 4th, 5th and 7th and UFA

Now tell me, how many RB were selected in the last 9 years in each round…then tell me how many hit in each round? Figures like this can be misleading. :)

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Apr 29, 2009 12:17 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

That was an excellent report btw.

Thanks for all of your efforts nycb.

We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin

by solace on Apr 29, 2009 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's where my memory was drawing info from. lol

The point is, almost half were first rounders and by sheer numbers I would guess by a factor of 20-1 were running backs picked up after the first round ended.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Apr 29, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just over 6.5 - 1

But who’s counting? ;-)

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Apr 29, 2009 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll try to comment later...I should probably be working right now. :)

But I’ll rec this for now. I’ll have my counter-arguments up later (if they aren’t covered by others), but this is still solid.

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on Apr 29, 2009 12:17 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

One other piece

While I thought that nycbroncosfan’s work was excellent, it didn’t cover part of the question that Zappa brought up. According to Wes Bunting of NFP, there was an average of 4 RBs taken in the 1st round over the past 10 years. Given that the average lifespan of an NFL running back is 3.8 years (that’s the number I have – if anyone can find a different one, please let me know), we have about 16 1st round backs in the league at a time on the average. This number will go up or down depending on the year.

I don’t have numbers on the other rounds, but I thought that this might be a good place to start

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Apr 29, 2009 1:07 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Why numbers lie...

there is a saying in statistics that if one foot is frozen in ice and the other is on fire, on the average you should be comfortable.

Here’s the problem with trying to use stats this way. Suppose you look at 34 RBs all taken in the same year. One washes out in camp, a second is injured in preseason, the third never plays a down and the fourth plays 11 years. On average they played 3.8 years apeice but how many were in the league in year 2?

Average career for backs is horribly skewed by the complete busts and the career ending injuries.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 29, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, in part

I’ve also looked over Doug’s article. It’s excellent, but there were several areas including some of the reasons that 1st round picks are able to average higher yardage, lack of info on injury factors, etc. My own feeling is that all stats need a high degree of analysis to be useful in the specific and that analysis should be able to take all stats into account to be helpful. The above was meant as only a starting point to learn the factors that you mention – injuries and the # of busts – as well as looking at other factors.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Apr 29, 2009 1:40 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

If Moreno can help our offense

score points and win ball games more power to it. I was like almost everybody else on this site (WTF…) when they announced Moreno as the selection especially when Orakpo was still on the board. Then I began to see the reasoning behind the move…and who was it that came out with the post on Moreno week before last? Broncobear? Brilliant!!!!

by bfree2bronc on Apr 29, 2009 1:40 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Bfree

Gotta give styg and SteveO some props on that. Frankly, gotta give Cutler some props for that. Without that second 1st rounder, I doubt we’d have him. I like the combination of Moreno, Orton, Ayers, and Alphonso Smith. That’s kind of what we got out of the Cutler trade. Not bad at all. Frankly, I’d make that trade again.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Apr 29, 2009 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Shanahan were still here...

Who knows how we would have picked. Who knows what needs he would have seen. Maybe he thought the offense was perfect the way it was. But defensively, I haven’t seen anything from Denver in quite a few years. Whatever he did, it probably wouldn’t have been an improvement. I’m just happy that we are trying something different. I’d be really happy if we weren’t picked apart and I’m hoping that the focus on the secondary will prevent that from happening.

by NDbronco on Apr 29, 2009 1:41 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

We may have even moved up to get him.

Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.

by Kfustud on Apr 29, 2009 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good post Broncoman

I happen to be okay with the players that we’ve taken and think the team is likely better with them. At the same time, without any of them playing a down, the only thing we have to go on is the draft itself. The single thing I can say for certain about the draft is a negative, and that is we gave up value that we didn’t have to in order to acquire players we could have had anyway or got an equivalently valued player.

While I like Knowshon Moreno, I don’t see that he is clearly so much better than Brown that we can’t trade the #12 pick get another pick, pick Ayers at #18 and Brown with the later 1st from a trade back. We would have a running back of roughly equal value, the player we targeted on defense, and another second round pick. If that is an early second round pick, we can take A Smith without giving up one of next year’s #1s. If that is a later second round pick we can take Quinn without giving up our two #3s.

I like Knowshon as a player, I think he’ll be good, and if he’s awesome we won’t think too much about all this in the future. All that said, I still think our draft strategy was poor in terms of long term planning and in terms of getting full value for our picks.

by jaffe28 on Apr 29, 2009 6:43 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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