Is Kyle Orton merely a quick fix? A look at Kyle Orton and a theory on a QB grave yard: Chicago.
by boydy2669 on Apr 4, 2009 9:25 PM MDT
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WOW! What a whirl wind the last 3 days have been. We have all commented on the deal, on what we like and dont like, and if the Broncos really came out ahead in the trade.
At first, I was tied in knots. WTF Jedi? I am a big supporter, and I am happy with the draft picks, but why Kyle Orton over someone like Jason Campbell? Seriously, why?
Well, I decided to chill on it a day or so (which for many of you who know me amounts to torture) as you usually go off my gut feel and original emotions. I listened and read some great posts, interviews and articles, and I am now coming around to the best value part of this trade could be the part I almost choked on originally: Kyle Orton.
First, and without getting into TOO much detail, lets take a look at a couple of things:
A) Josh McDaniels Offense: Our esteemed members here at MHR have done some great articles on the system that Josh McDaniels scheme. For years, the Pats had run a scheme based around the Ernhart Perkins scheme (which you can view here) which was basically a power style of play predicated on a play action, a solid running game and striking vertically when least expected.
This was a system installed by Charlie Weis but changed and adapted by Bill Belichick, but in major part by Josh McDaniels. They took a leaf out of Florida's book, and consulted Urban Meyer in part to be able to beat the Tampa 2 defense. What we have is a spread style offense, with the quarterback playing mainly our of the shotgun, A great example to read on this was written by Ted Bartlett that you can read here (thanks TB!). The great thing about this tweaked system is that still involves a strong running game, and more involvement fromf the RB's in th pass game.
B) Kyle Ortons College Background: I started doing some research on this so called noodle armed, nothing but a back up Kyle Orton. My first port of call was here. Reading the history of his college career, Kyle Orton did not strike me as just a game managing type QB with a questionable arm. In 2004, he won a slew of awards as can be seen in the following:
Named 14th-best player in the nation (No. 2 in the Big Ten) by ESPN The Magazine ... preseason third team All-American and No. 3-ranked quarterback in the nation by Phil Steele's behind Matt Leinart (USC) and Jason White (Oklahoma) ... ranked No. 4 by The Sporting News and Street & Smith's ... preseason Big Ten Offensive Player of the Year by Lindy's and The Sporting News ... named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.
So now I am thinking, "There is clearly more to Kyle Orton than what we have seen in Chicago." Next, I went and checked out his scouting report from different sources. Here's what I found, and it is probably easier just giving you guys the direct quotes from ESPN scouts:
Has adequate-to-good size. Arm strength is good but not elite. Puts good zip on the deep out route, can drive the ball downfield in the vertical passing game, and can fit the ball into some tight spots in coverage. Shows excellent touch and accuracy when throwing vertically. Has impressive timing and knows how to lead his receivers in stride. He continues to improve his decision making skills. Played in a spread offense where he was forced to read the field, make progressions and check down. Knows how to read defenses and is used to having several options. Really cut down on turnovers and seems to have a much better grasp of the concept of ball control.
And this from the same result and called a weakness:
He played in a shotgun-spread offense that is extremely passer friendly. How will he adjust to taking snaps under center? Will he struggle to read defenses while dropping? Is he a bit of a system quarterback?
He was graded out as 2nd round prospect! What was also the only remarkable thing to come out of Jay Cutler's presser was the Jerry Angelo mentioning how much film work Jedi did on Orton before okaying the draft. AHA....very interesting!
C) Chicago's Offensive Scheme: With Ron Turner as OC, Chicago runs a very heavy run first offense, that is predicated on ball security, time in possession, waering out the opposition defense and taking shots with the passing game when the defense is softened up (please, this is a very basic definition for the sake of brevity). Alos consider Chicago's home field, Soldier's Field: the Mistake by the Lake. This ground, along with Lambeau, are 2 of the most consistently brutal places to be, with lots of wind, mud, rain, cold.....and any other element you can think of. Also consider, that they play in the same division as Green Bay. Got to have a good running game, angry defense and a no mistake QB. With this mind, why did Chicago draft Kyle Orton in the first place? A QB with a big arm, who played in a spread offense to come in and play at Soldiers Field.....where is the sense in that.
Much to Orton's credit, he adapted and became successful while NOT playing to his strengths. 15 -2 at Soldiers Field is nothing to sneeze at. And not a word of complaint out of a QB who was clearly drafted into the wrong system.
D) Chicago: A quarterback graveyard!: I have linked you all to this article by Dan Pompeii regarding the record number of QB's Chicago have had. 23.....you read correctly......23 since Jim McMahon....the most successful.....Kyle Orton who has won 75% of his games. There is a pattern here, and it is a genaralization, (and I am not going to bore you with details but if you ARE interested about Chicago Bears abysmal failing at the QB position you can read here) but the best QB's for the Bears have been game managers...guys with good decision making who could make plays when needed.
Conclusion: There are 2 glaring things that appeared to me after researching Kyle Orton, and also the history of Chicago Bears quarterbacking:
- There is a lot more upside to Kyle Orton than any of us imagine. He played in the spread offense at college, where he flourished which makes him a perfect fit for what McDaniels does. What is also great is that he has also learned to be a game manager in his time at Chicago. I give the kid major props for being SO successful when placed in a sytem that did not suit him, playing in conditions that have killed many a quarteback. The kid wins...he has won 75% of game he has played in. He is only 26 and is now coming to a system that suits his play, with one of the best menu of weapons in the game, with the best young O line in the game. WHATS NOT TO LIKE!!!!
- Chicago fleeced themselves in this trade. 2 x 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick and a really successful QB with more upside than many give him credit for. In return, a very talented QB for sure, but one that is known for poor ball security, unmanageable turn overs and questionable decision making who prefers the vertical passing game. Does this seem like a good fit for this teams style of play and in a division known for pretty inclement weather. Does not seem like a great fit.
I am really glas I did this research on Kyle Orton. He is resilient QB that survived in Chicago, against a system that did not suit him, in an environment and weather that hardly encourages a stronged armed, pass first QB.
Be warned Broncos Country....there is a lot more to Kyle Orton than meats the eye!
Would love to hear your thoughts?
Peace!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Hmm
I was thinking Simms would win the job but now I’m starting to wonder.
Great post Boydy! Rec’d
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
Excellent post boydy. Rec'd!
I have watched Orton coming out of Purdue and being drafted by the Bears. I thought that he would develop into a pretty good QB for them if he was given an opportunity and assistance by the coaching staff to do so. I am thinking that if he is healthy, he is going to grab the starting job and hold it. This guy has the potential of being an excellent QB in this system. He will greatly benefit from McD and McCoy’s expertise and assistance. We are in for some exciting football.
Rec rec rec rec rec!
great post!!!! he has a lot of potential in this system. If he does well, why even draft a qb high next year?
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and dont win"-Brandon Marshall
Neckbeard vs The Spleen: How better can this get?!?!
+1
If Orton (or Simms) turns out to be be the system QB we need, then this trade has potential to be amazing because we won’t have to commit one of those firsts to a QB next year. And I think Jedi took this deal because he felt that Orton has what it takes to make his system go. We’ll have to wait and see if that’s the case, but McD does seem to understand QBs.
I agree with you 100%
I went to college in Chicago and have a lot of friends that live there. I was extremely suprised by all the positive things they had to say about Orton. As you pointed out, he is young and could become a very good QB. I’m extremely happy with this trade.
Great post, Boydy... rec'd
Thanks for the insights, much appreciated.
I spend the morning watching KO’s 2008 game highlights on NFL.com, and this is what I came away with:
- Arm strength and accuracy in short-to-medium range is more than adequate. He put the ball in some tight windows on more than one occasion.
- Great touch to complement his arm strength. Generally very good placement.
- Arm strength a bit lacking for the long ball.
- More than once threw very ugly picks to an LB undercutting a route. Hopefully this can be chalked up to inexperience.
He also handles himself very well in interviews, he seems humble and a team-first kind of guy.
Perusing his stat splits, two numbers that offered encouragement are his red zone and last two minutes of the half passer rating, which both well exceed his average at 96.0 and 101.8 respectively (mentioned in another thread).
I’m looking forward to seeing this guy play with a horse on his helmet.
Thanks, boyd, and thanks, Coastal
CB – what are your sources for these QB ratings, if I could ask?
Hillis in '09
you might check nfl.com
and look under “splits”. Also check out this STATS inc page. At the bottom are myriad drop down menus for sorting and puling all sorts of obscure numbers…
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 4, 2009 11:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure thing
I got these from…
NFL.com (situational stats): http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/situationalstats?id=ORT716150
ESPN.com (stat splits): http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8520
An additional thought
is that whoever doesn’t win the quarterback battle is going to be a solid backup. We’ve really upgraded the backup position since in effect exchanging QBs with Tennessee. Now they’re stuck with Ramsey and we’ve got a guy who’s going to be either an effective backup or the starter.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
+2
Musical chairs = happy huddles.
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 4, 2009 11:37 PM MDT up reply actions
on the money, Spock
It will be an advantage not to have a huge step down if the QB2 needs to come in. I also wonder how it will affect the opposing D to have to adjust between righty and lefty in this scenario.
interesting point
HT or some one who is football savy do Defenses neeed to adjust(maybe the line) to a lefty QB?
Finally I'm coming around
I still don’t like McDaniels but, if he is going to be the coach I’m glad he is doing what he does well, i.e. seeing qb’s that others dismiss but he feels that he can teach his system to, and (against all odds) I am starting to hope he succeeds (my slow little brain finally realised that his success is the bronco’s success). Thanks for the great post boydy.
One thing I know for sure - I'm usually wrong.
Good on ya, mate!
We have more kool-aid whenever you need it!
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 4, 2009 11:38 PM MDT up reply actions
My vote's out for Boydy being a featured writer
rec’d good sir.
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
+1
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 5, 2009 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for all the comments guys...much appreciated!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Your best post Boydy! As usual, I couldnt agree MORE
In fact, if Cutler had been selected by the Bears with their hyper conservative offense, and lack of quality WR’s, guess what? He’d be lucky to have the W/L record of Orton, and Im sure he would have poor mouthed his way out of Chicago by now. However, Orton embraced it and learned to live within the system. Plus, Orton was sacked 29 times last year, what would Cutler have done if he had been knocked on his ass that often? Cried, complained, pouted, and probably gone AWOL.
Orton is 21-12 as a starter and 15-2 at home! Oh yeah, last year he was 9-6 and that was with a 24th ranked defense. Our defense was 29thand everyone loves to excuse Cutlers record because of it. Yet no one discusses Ortons situation because everything being equal, Orton outperformed Cutler. Oh, our running game was ranked 12th and that was higher than the Bears! So Orton was more successful as a QB, with fewer resources and lower quality players at the offsensive skill position.
Why we don’t need to draft a QB? Because WE now have one, but only after we lost our spoiled prima doña
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
Well that might be a little extreme
Cried, complained, pouted, and probably gone AWOL.
He probably would have just thought he was back at Vandy again. ; )
Still, he probably won’t realize how nice it was not to get sacked by a relentless NFL pass rush until he suits up in Chicago. ; )
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 4, 2009 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions
I wish Jay all the luck in the world.
And I hope he has a good career. However, “As a Bronco Fan” … I laugh a little and hope for him to have a really tough first year in Chicago cause it will improve our next year’s 1st round pick from the trade.
Sorry Jay… not routing against you personally … just wanting the most for the trade.
Excellent write up Boydy!
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 5, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions
Our offensive line is great,
but if you think back, you’ll remember that Cutler saved five or six sacks last season on his own. He senses pressure well. He slides in the pocket while keeping his eyes up the field (unfortunately locked on his initial target much of the time), and he runs with power if he has to. Cutler will make the offensive line in Chicago more effective with his pocket awareness and mobility. I’m not saying that to rain on anyone’s parade, but I feel like there is an overemphasis on devaluing Cutler to make ourselves feel better that he’s gone. Understandable and natural reaction. But still, if we are going to harp on his many deficiencies, we should also acknowledge his many assets.
On the other hand, I have no problem trumpeting Orton’s positives because he’s been underrated his whole career. How the Bear’s could have started Grossman ahead of him for so long is beyond me.
I know what you are saying....
but after watching Orton’s highlights he has pretty decent pocket presence and mobility too. I don’t think cutler to Orton will be much of a step down on the pocket presence (or step up for the Bears). Arm strength is a much different matter but I don’t think that will be as important in McD’s system.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 5, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
I, too, have commented a number of times on how well Cutler senses pressure
It just now occurred to me to wonder, though, how much his pocket awareness is at the expense of his ability to cycle through his receivers and find the open man. Locking on to a primary receiver perhaps makes it easier for him to pay attention to and avoid the pass rush. Focussing more on his progressions might make him more vulnerable to the rush but would also make him a more effective quarterback. Just a thought.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
That's what I love about MHR.
Someone always has another level of analysis to think about!
It’s a good point. He certainly seems like he expends minimum brainpower as a byproduct of his fantastic athleticism. If he ever was on the verge of turning his Vandy pedigree into smart on the field play, he disguised it well.
I wonder too, if his movement in the pocket wasn’t a case of happy feet masked by supreme athleticism. Is it possible that Cutler came into the NFL as David Carr because of his experience at Vandy?
I still think Cutler’s ceiling is Brett Favre-ish in terms of what he can do on the football field. For me that is a step below the all-time greats like Elway and Montana and Unitas. His physical gifts will win him some games he might otherwise lose. His reliance on his physical gifts will cost him some games he might otherwise win by playing smart and conservative.
If he, like Elway, learns to play QB in a way that allows him to take advantage of his gifts when he must while letting him take the check down when he should, he could still be amazing. I seriously wonder if that’s in his personality though.
I’m still rooting for Jay to become a great player because I want to see what those physical gifts could become. His intangibles make it questionable though.
Great point, Jaffe
Jay does have a kind of radar in the pocket, and he scrambles well. I actually thought that was his most Elwayesque quality – evading pressure and being able to run for the first down.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
To the contrary
I understand what you’re saying, j, about devaluing Cutler to make ourselves feel better, and it’s a fair point to consider when presenting an objective exploration of the pros and cons of his prospects as a Chicago Bear. It’s a lucid point and I agree completely that it can lead to lazy analysis.
But let me just point out that many of us were doing the exact opposite when Jay was ours — at least I was. I defended Jay’s fiery nature to the teeth over and over again, particularly against invective spewing from SD fans, the whole time hoping — expecting is probably a fair word — he would emerge from his first few seasons with a thicker skin. Maybe that was unfair and a little presumptuous on my part, but I have certain expectations for a professional athlete and the way they carry themselves, and looking at Jay I was hoping he would reach the potential I saw in him. In my personal opinion, the thinness of his skin was formative to his desire to be traded, so while I feel sad, let down, and definitely wish it had turned out differently, in moving to the Windy City he proved something in my mind about his inability to get past certain things, so I can’t blame anyone for making a few good-natured jabs at him now that he’s a Bear. He can take it. I think… O.o
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 5, 2009 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions
I was just over on the Bears blog
and some of those guys actually think WE got the short end of the stick. They think they robbed us. Again, they point to yardage stats, not games won, in comparing Orton to Cutler. They point to interception ratios. I am very anxious to find out what our hindsight will be after this season. Anyway, those comparisons assume Orton will be a starter for Denver, which is entirely up for speculation.
My point is, most of us are kind of climbing on the KO bandwagon, which I think has a lot of upside, to make ourselves feel better. But the bears are drinking their own brand of Kool-Jayd.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
+1
Too true. . .I can’t stand Rivers, but at the end of the season I really felt that Rivers deserved to be in the pro bowl over Cutler. That was really hard to think, but I realize now that part of me sensed that Cutler while talented, was not as good a leader as Rivers. When I would hear SD players defending Rivers it bothered me, but it is interesting to me that I didn’t hear Broncos players defending Cutler as much. I wonder how many players are really that sorry to see Cutler move on. . .
Orton is 21-12 as a starter and 15-2 at home
maybe i am a pessimist but whenever i see that stat i see that he is 6-10 on the road. why so bad on the road?
It is normal to be worse on the road than at home
A winning team (or quarterback) is usually just better at home than bad on the road. In other words, 15-2 is better than 6-10 is bad. Check out home and away splits in football or basketball standings and you’ll see this pattern, with only a few exceptions. Veterans, however, are less likely to fall off on the road.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Boydy, I frakkin love this post
I think we must have had parallel experiences. My first reaction was, essentially, KYLE WHO? Thanks to a little research and getting the scoop from some of the smarter Bears fans over at Windy City Gridiron, I came away believing we may have stolen them blind in this trade, and that it potentially may not be EVEN CLOSE. In fact, a few of their fans had even come out before the trade and said they strongly believed that they should not traded for Cutler but rather rebuilt the team around KO.
Time will tell, and of course, to a certain extent, we’re still talking about Orton’s potential in our offense, just as we used to talk about Jay’s. But I’m with you in that my confidence (in Orton, definitely, but also in our new team, and our new HC) has grown immeasurably in seeing how this trade was handled. Love that Jedi did his homework here.
And as much as I love the nickname “neckbeard”, I also love having a QB we can call KO. More kool-aid please!!! : )
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
Awww!
You beat me to the “punch!” KO – leader of the knockout offense. I think that’s a MUCH better nickname than Neckbeard.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Loves Me Some KO Kool-Aid
Great post, rec’d for sure! I was thrilled when I learned the details of the trade. I’ve always liked Orton. He’s not flashy, he doesn’t put up big numbers, but he does what it takes to win.
When comparing him to other quarterbacks, the name Ben Roethlisberger comes to mind. Loves his team, loves his city, loves to win, and knows how to win, even if he doesn’t have the physical toolbox that it seems like you would need.
List of Prerequisites to be Denver Broncos QB:
1.Don’t EVER compare yourself to Elway, and we’ll make sure we don’t either. 10 years is enough time to heal.
2.Don’t make our ownership or management have to call YOU time after time.
3.Don’t piss off Mr. B, he signs your checks.
4. Try your best, we’ll support you if you leave 100% out on the field.
5.Neckbeards are REQUIRED as of 4.2.2009
--Calijoefornia
I'm not giving up on any QB McDaniels hires until hes worked on them for a year.
I think he sees that Orton and Simms both have the abilities he wants. Whichever one wins it will be of great help to the team that they want to work, want to win the job, want to win for the Broncos. The new era starts in ’09
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
Sorry, not that excited, I would say Simms will be the starter in 09
Looking at Orten’s Stats here is what jumps out at me:
55.3 completion percentage (awful by any standard)
30TD to 27INT almost a 1:1 ratio, again awful
Orten is a backaup at best in this league, Chicago did not get fleeced in this trade, like I said, they got a golden goose for some magic beans and a mule.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Golden Goose Egg, ya mean ; )
as in playoff games? Sorry, it was there, I couldn’t resist. ; )
You’re right of course, Cutler IS special — there’s no denying it.
And I’m not suggesting Orton is special, just that he may not be as bad as people have been assuming. And maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t have to be special. It’s just gratifying to see a guy who’s actually genuinely excited to be a Bronco. Given the big hole left in our offense this week, we could use a little of that type of infectiousness.
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 5, 2009 1:16 AM MDT up reply actions
On the Stats posted by Broncoman
There is more to just the stats….
Here is my take:
Jay Cutler “had” in my opinion the finest receiving core in the whole league. While the Cards may have had the best two primary targets, I feel when you factor in slot, TE’s, and Hillis that it is hard to argue that he didn’t have a leg up every time he tossed the ball in the air. Great options make a QB’s job easier especially when the O-line provides him plenty of time to throw it.
Kyle Orton ’had" in my opinion one of the the bottom tier receiving cores in the whole league. And not to mention a O-Line that was less that stealer.
Now switch places. KO with the Broncos receiving core and O-line and Jay with the Bears receiving and O-line. At the end of next year we will be even more pleased about this trade. Time will tell, but I believe that the O-line of the broncos will make Orton look like a star and McJedi will look like a genius.
Just Win!
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 5, 2009 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions
That's one reason I think Orton or Simms will shine in our offense
Locking on to a primary receiver, usually his security blanket Marshall, meant that Cutler wasn’t able to take advantage of the fact that at least one of his excellent group of receivers was far enough in the clear for him to complete an easy pass without taking an unnecessary risk. Hopefully our starter this year will be able to take better advantage of the number of talented receivers running routes on a given play. Then the sheer depth of talent in our receiving corps will come into play.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
I agree
Our new starting QB, whichever one he is, may end up in the Rich Gannon category of quick and accurate reads. And after all, that’s Brady’s (and Cassell’s and McDaniels’) bread and butter.
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 5, 2009 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions
The thing I read about Orten is that he has the same problem of looking onto recievers
And doesn’t have the arm to make up for it, like I said, I am not that thrilled with Orten, hopefully he does well, but I would take Simms as a starter at this point. Neither is exciting me, but I think both are stop gaps until next years draft, call me the Colt McCoy camp.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Fair enough
I wouldn’t complain about nabbing McCoy, for sure!
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 6, 2009 6:48 AM MDT up reply actions
No Colt McCoy
Sam Bradford is WAY Better
by gnarlybroncodude on Apr 6, 2009 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Most definitely agreed!
Bradford is the real deal and the sooner he leaves the Big 12 behind….no pun intended…..the better off Mizzou will be :P
bette than the cards in the slot?? really??
Receiving Statistics
Larry Fitzgerald 96 1431 14.9 12
Anquan Boldin 89 1038 11.7 11
Steve Breaston 77 1006 13.1 3
Brandon Marshall 104 1265 12.2 6
Eddie Royal 91 980 10.8 5
Brandon Stokley 49 528 10.8 3
I conceed that Breaston had more yards.
There is a reason Steve Breaston won Most Improved Player for the Card Team this year. However, Breaston played the opposite of Fitz for many games as Boldin was out for four or five games. I considered him more of a WR the a slot guy. But you are right. Breaston was killer for the cards last year.
The cards are as deep as it come at the WR spot. They also have Urban and Early Docet. See here to read an excellent writeup about their WR’s. I also saw on the Cards blogs that the “fans” have entertained trading for our TE Tony the Chef. Just the fans talking but… you never know.
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Apr 6, 2009 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Good points.
Also, one thing that doesn’t show up in stats is Stokley’s third down magic. Frequently on third down the Broncos knew they were going to Stokley, the other team know they were going to Stokley, the announcers knew they were going to Stokly, even Kim Jung Il knew we were going to Stokey…and what happened? First down Brandon Stokley.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
Where did you get your stats B-man?
According to NFL.com
completion % – 58.5
y/a – 6.5
rating – 79.6
TD – 18
int – 12
It’s time to move beyond the myth of cutler the franchise QB. cutler might have become one, but he wasn’t there yet. Sure he had the 2nd most yardage in the NFL; he through the second most passes. BFD! He also through the second most interception and had a higher int/att rate then any “franchise QB”
In every meaningful statistic (meaning the ones that actually lead to wins) Cutler was mediocre to slightly above average. He is a supremely talented young man with a lot of potential. But that potential has yet to be realized. Meanwhile he has several really bad habits and is beginning to seem unwilling to change.
No on believes that Orton is as good as cutler, but then cutler isn’t as good as his rep either.
In
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 5, 2009 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Cutler "had a higher int/att rate then any 'franchise QB'"
Which is a major reason, I take it, there was such a huge disconnect between our “2nd ranked offense” and our 16th ranked points production. Frankly, the terminology sucks in this matter. “2nd ranked offense” should refer to the one that has the second most points, not to the one that has the second most yards. I wonder how yardage got to be the de facto measure of an offense’s capability?
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
I agree
Points scored by an offense should be the measure used to rank the offense, not yards. I think the reasoning however is that a great D can skew the points scored a bit. If you have a ball-hawking defense, one which causes many turnovers, your D can strip the ball or intercept a pass deep in your opponents territory. Your offense could then go 3 and out and still score an easy 3 points. Or they could punch it in for 7 with the short field their defense provided them. If your D does this often, it can really skew the numbers concerning points scored by an offense.
If we could have just screwed another head on his shoulders, he would have been the greatest QB who ever lived.
That's Kyle's lifetime stats, not last season's only
The 58.5 completion percentage is still bad, but I think that part of Kyle increase in rating (from his lifetime stats) is due to the running game, I put it like this, look at what Cutler’s stats were when we had a 100yd rusher verus when we didn’t have a 100yd rusher, having a running attack vastly helps a QB, think if we had Matt Forte and Peyton Hills, scary.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Are you seriously saying
that having the #24 running game improved his passing? The Broncos had a better running game!
Were the broncos
running against 8 man fronts every play? what about giving the defense a breather to keep them fresh and using up the clock?
As far as I'm concerned
any qb who has more td’s than ints in their first 2-3 years has potential. How many times do we see rookie qbs come in and throw 13 tds and 19 ints in the first couple of years. This guy is young and has been more successful than the leinarts, youngs and alex smiths of the league. The jury is still out on his career, but he comes into a great situation so let’s see what he can do. That being said, if he turns out to be even a decent, serviceable qb that wins game then this will turn out to be a spectacular trade…assuming we don’t blow the draft picks.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
I think you missed the point of Boydys article
Orton has potential, but his potential might have been wasted in Chicago for all of the reasons listed. He is a system quarterback that will soon be used in a system that better suits his play style. The writing is on the wall, you just have to read it.
Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just how in the world do you think it got to be this old?
— Anon
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
by Choochoobonewagon on Apr 7, 2009 12:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Kyle Orten, more than it seems
I have a friend that I work with that is a HUGE Bears fan. I mentioned that Orton had a weak arm. His comment to me was that no QB has a great arm in Chicago. The wind will blow you over, you can’t throw in Chicago at all. He said he thought Orton was a great QB. I have to believe him. Great Post.
nice name? lol
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win"-Brandon Marshall
Neckbeard vs The Spleen: How better can this get?!?!
Does this sound familiar
I took a leaf out of your book boydy and I was trolling around every thing I could find on KO and found this from a Purdue Boilermaker (what the hell is a boilermaker, one who makes boilers maybe) scouting report found here and it sounded kind of familiar to what some of the MHRians believe McDaniels O will be.
Offensive Strategy:
Purdue runs its trademark one-back, multiple wide receiver offense well and makes defenses cover the entire field. The BoilerMakers run the ball more than perceived. In 2003 the team ran the ball more than it passed and this year’s offense is very balanced (only four more passes than runs). Brandon Jones and Jerod Void do a good job off keeping defenses honest and that translates into more success for Orton and the passing game. Also, watch for the ball to be thrown to the tailbacks on screens and swings to the flat. Purdue has done it all year and Illinois burned Michigan on passes to the backs. Purdue believes in getting the ball short to it’s playmakers and allowing them to do just that- make plays.
I also found this
completed 20 of 34 passes for 230 yards and a touchdown while tying school bowl record with two rushing touchdowns vs. Georgia in Capital One Bowl on Jan. 1 … suffered dislocated left thumb, sprained toe and cracked rib in that game prompting head coach Joe Tiller to say it was “one of the two truly courageous performances I’ve seen in all my years of coaching.”
from the Purdue Boilermakers website here, I’ve always been impressed by a guy who will play through injuries, and it maybe just me (or the koolaid) but Orton is looking better and better.
One thing I know for sure - I'm usually wrong.
Great find OZ....I agree....everything I have read and what he has said me me very impressed.
He is the type of player that will have the backbone and moxy to play in Denver!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
+2
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 5, 2009 7:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes, you're correct =)
Boilermaker refers to someone who welds and manufactures boilers. It became Purdue’s namesake when their football team shutout nearby Wabash college in 1891, and the local news referred to them as “boilermakers”, due to the hands-on, metal forging type of work that was common for students of Purdue’s engineering program at the time. I only know this because I am a Purdue engineering alumn =).
Something I didn’t know but recently found out is that Purdue quarterbacks have thrown more touchdowns in the NFL than any other school! I mean I knew we produced good quarterbacks, but didn’t know we were that prolific… I think Bob Griese and Drew Brees probably have the most to do with it, but nonetheless, all the more reason why it’s good we have KO!
"according to the map, we've only gone 4 inches"
Also
“Boilermaker” has come to refer to ANY kind of plate steel craftsman, whether they specifically make boilers or not. The “boiler” fabrication was at its peak at the height of steampower. The alternative were impossibly heavy cast-steel and iron boilers. They were susceptible to cracking and shattering impact forces, but less overall engineering knowledge was required to accomodate the internal pressure forces. When sheet steel was incorporated, its tensile properties made it neccesary to have a much more in depth understanding of the material mechanics involved, since it could bulge and stretch if built improperly (and explode!). I think that is why the respectful terminology of “Boilermaker” came about. It may seem like a specialized niche, but the men who worked on it were integral to succesful industry, and were well respected because of it…
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 5, 2009 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
this just happened
to be something I have a personal interest in. There are a lot of oldtimers in these parts (Alaska) who are still relying on antique machinery to run mills, iceplants, etc. so I have gotten to know a lot of these men through the machines they love.
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 5, 2009 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Really, you need an iceplant in Alaska
I would think that would consist of two guys going outside with a pick ack and dump truck, LOL.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
damn, must be a monday when I can't spell axe
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Ughhh, ax me.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
iceplants
here in southeast, the climate is very similar to the pacific northwest. We get over 14 feet of rain per year (we are classified as a rainforest because of it) and it rains all winter instead of snowing. Although the last couple of years have seen solar cycles that caused a ton of snow to dump on us at any given time, but it simply doesn’t last. I lived in Vancouver/Portland for three years, and I would say the climate is almost identical, maybe a little colder in the winter at times.
The iceplants are for the fisheries. Tenders are boats that carry the catch from the fishing boats to the plants, so that the fishing boats don’t have to stop fishing, and the tenders fill their holds with crushed ice during the summer to keep the fish fresh during the turnaround. All the iceplants I have seen or worked on are friggin antique too. They get updated motors, coils and generators, but the cores are ancient. Its amazing to compare these old machines with some modern ones which can’t even make it to the end of their warranty period….
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 7, 2009 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I didn't know that!
I graduated a couple years ago and it looks like I didn’t have the full history =). Man, I love this site. Thank you Styg!
"according to the map, we've only gone 4 inches"
I thought it refered to the drink ;)
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the one with the gun, A-hole" - Ash from Army of Darkness
Awesome post boydy!!!
The more I learn about KO, the more I think we robbed Chicago twice!!
We were able to trade Jay Cutler for 2 1’s and a 3rd, but then we needed a QB who fit McDaniels system, so we traded a 5th rounder for KO. I put KO a step above a guy like Matt Cassel (and he was had for a 2nd!), put some weapons around him and he’ll win games, smart, tough and solid. Just like the rest of the team that we’re building. Plus he gets to learn from the Jedi Master. One of the things I liked about Cassel (even though I didn’t really want him) was that he got better as the year went on. I’m looking forward to seeing the growth of Orton.
Now let’s put those picks to work on building a solid defense and go out and win some games!
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
Sounds promising, but...
I’d like them to take a flyer on a “project” prospect in the later rounds. Any opinions on Nate Davis?
Excellent Work Boydy.
One of my favorite points above is the fact that McDanials appears to have wanted KO. In my effort to dig through a lot of the sludge in order to watch this parade, the Broncos front office appears to have been very proactive, smart, and shrewed in how they resolved the situation. These guys had a good idea of the teams that were interested and spent some sleepless nights analyzing each team’s starting QB, and in a lot of reporting it appears that McDanials really like Orten and got his guy.
I have no doubt in my mind that KO can win ballgames for us, and that is huge. It buys the club one year at the very least before it has to consider drafting a potential “franchise QB”, which allows taking two impact players at 12 and 18 this year. If I’m wrong, and KO and Simms flop, we’ll have the ammo to grab Bradford or McCoy next year, who both play in spread offenses and should be good fits for McDanails.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
Love the post, Boydy
Living here in IL, as I said before on this GREAT site, I’ve watched KO throughout his Bears career with objectivity afforded by not being a Bears fan.
He has conducted himself with class at every turn and his leadership has never been questioned. I’ve never heard his team mates say anything remotely negative about him nor have I heard anything negative come from him whether it be during QB contoversies, tough losses or the offense itself.
I will say talking to Bears fans after the trade they generally were ecstatic about getting Cutler but really sorry to see KO go. And most have said, now watch him go have a pro bowl year!
IMHO this was not only necessary but a great move. We shall see.
Go BRONCOS
The QB position is set.
Great trade depending on draft picks
The only way I’ll be disppointed with the trade is if we package picks and go for Sanchez. We nee to give Orton a chance to play.
The QB position is set.
I agree - let's see what Orton (or Simms) can do
Please, McX, don’t package picks and move up for a QB. (I’m sure they won’t, and more likely, they’ll try to move down a bit)
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
As I mentioned in another thread
I suspect McDaniels will select a quarterback in mid to late rounds just about every year until he strikes gold. Since it’s a crap shoot especially at QB why waste a high draft choice when you can just keep using low ones till you get your man?
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
me too.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
Great post Boydy...and thanks
I’m now hopeful that Orton can be a good QB in our offense. I hope that with his tough persona he’ll be able to pull us through our very hard schedule with sheer will. He sounds like a leader, something, I’m afraid, Cutler wasn’t. I thought he was, but then I remembered some of his actions on the field after dropped passes and wonder and I still haven’t read a single Bronco come out and say how much they liked him and will miss him. Maybe someone did and I missed it?
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
Really great post, Boydy
I’ve always liked Orton (Bears are one of my 3-4 favorite teams after the Broncos) and now I know why I liked him so much!
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Great post....
I completely agree with point #1.
As to point #2 I’m not sure Chicago got fleeced. Ron turner seems to want a better Rex Grossman and that’s something Kyle Orton will never be. In cutler they get a QB with a stronger arms than Grossman, better situational awareness, more mobility, and better improvisational skills. they also get a QB who locks onto his receivers like Grossman, forces the ball into coverage, and who seems to lose focus at times. Maybe they can coach some of that out of Cutler. Chicago got what they wanted; Denver got what they needed to have.
Agree completely.
What Chicago also got was an energized fan base and some excitement for a team that has not met expectations over the last couple of seasons. They got what they needed.
We also got what we needed. Ammo to rebuild the defense and grab and offensive impact player this year or next if we want, and we got a demoralizing, energy-sucking situation over with. I really thought we might give it a chance to cool down, but it was never gonna get below a low boil anyway.
by jaffe28 on Apr 5, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great Points.
I have two close friends that are huge bears fans and they are going nuts, and I am very happy it’s all over with.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
yeah but losing has a funny way of de-enrgizing fans...
not that I think chicago is going to suck, but if they get off to a slow start everyone in chicago is going to start second guessing themselves. The same could be said for us, but we didn’t really have a choice in the matter…jay forced the trade.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
That's why coaching can make such a difference
Sometimes what you want isn’t necessarily what you need, and the better coach is the one who has a better sense of what’s actually needed.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Great post, Boydy!
Recommended. I love that I can just come here to MHR and not waste time searching for news. I wanted to find out more about Orton – and BAM! Here it is!
I like what I see. But our draft picks are still tabula rasa. All kinds of possibility, but nothing tangible yet.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Rationalization is one heck of a drug...
Ok. Full diclosure I am a Chicago native and a life long Bears fan. I have been reading some of the post here because I love sportstalk between us fans. Also I’m curious to see what Broncos fans feel about the Cutler trade and recieving Orton.
Let me say this. Orton can’t throw downfield with accuracy pass 30 yards. Period. I can’t began to tell you how many time Devin Hester had to turn around to catch a ball or how many times Orton needed a pass int. call to complete one of his “bomb” attempts. Secondly, there seems to be this myth surrounding Orton that he’s a QB that doesn’t turn the ball over. This is false. Go ahead and check out Orton career interception and TD numbers compared to eveyone’s favorite whipping boy Rex Grossman…they’re almost identical. Rex (33TD to 35 INTS) Orton ( 30TD to 27INTS). So what part of these numbers make him to be some great caretaker of the ball like he’s Phil Simms or something? And to the last and most stated myth…“He’s won a lot of games”. Any honest football fan will tell you that using a win ,loss stat to explain a QBs’s effectiveness is ridiculous. Orton went 10-3 as a starter in ‘05 because of a great defense. The guy had a QB rating of 59.7, threw 9 tds and 13 int. This past season he lost to every team in the division with the exception of Detriot, a team he was losing to BEFORE the great ankle injury. (Rex Grossman had to bail us out in that one). Then he comes back and loses 2 pivitol divisional games. So I’m struggling with this perception of Orton as this clutch performer.
Orton is a decent, tough QB and honestly I wish him the best. But in all honesty, Orton is a mediocre, play it safe, check dowm QB who, contrary to popular belief, did NOT even beat out Rex Grossman for that starting job last season. It was handed to him. He isn’t turning the ball over less because he’s smart, he’s doing it out of necessity becuse he can’t make the throws. Our runningback was our leading reciever, not only because or our lack of good recievers but also because Orton couldn’t exploit anything outside of 30-35 yards. These are the facts folks. What happens the first time Brandon Marshall or Eddie Royal is streaming down the field, with 2 steps behind the corner only to see Orton throw a ball that’s 2 steps in front of him? What happens when you start to realize that all of the “Go routes” and Skinny post" and “seam patterns” are all of a sudden missing from the playbook? I’ll tell you what happens… You be looking for that 25 yr. old QB with the rocket arm who had to win games without a running game or a decent defense. Two things Orton had most of his stay in Chicago
Eddie Royal is...2 steps behind the corner only to see Orton throw a ball that’s 2 steps in front of him?
He’ll think, “Jay?” Cutler was accurate in high-velocity line-drive throws ten to twenty yards past the line of scrimmage. I don’t recall him being that accurate when he put air under the ball. I can recall seeing the ball 5-10 beyond a wide-open Royal.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Orton can pass down field just fine . Hester wasnt even the starter opening day and missed part of his second and all of his third game as a wideout . Did Orton miss Hester on several occasions ? YES but none of the bears wideouts made it easy for him because if it wasnt in between the numbers no way are they gonna catch it. They didnt lay out and didnt fight for balls which is why none of them would be in the top 4 receivers on any good passing team.
Orton doesnt turn the ball over . He had a bears record of consecutive passes without an INT this past season . Instead of using his rookie numbers in comparison to see where he is now as a player you are trying to use them as if they are one entire season .
I see you are one of those that like to [pick and choose what stats actually count .
the bears beat every team in the division and the Lions game when he was hurt Hester fumbled a kickoff giving the Lions the ball back in the redzone but of course you know that but conveniently decided to leave it out .
Orton destroyed Rex simply because the coaches didnt make it about who could throw the prettiest spiral but who could read a defense and maintain their composure . Rex is not the QB of the bears anymore because he simply was too mentally weak for the job. he knew and so did everyone else .
As a QB you cannot allow one play to cause you to lose your composure and thus effect the entire offensive unit..When Rex threw a pick there was no recovery and that is the most important stats of a QB not how well you do when everything is going well but how well you do when everything has fell apart .Orton can throw a pick and look awful all game and then put together the drive that wins or ties it to send it into OT .Rex would throw a pick and it would snowball and he simply didnt know how to stop the bleeding.
Forte was leading receiver because no one else could stay on the field ,catch the ball, or get open all at once out of that receiving corps . The fact that you are on here trying to compare Brandon Lloyd ,Rashied Davis ,and Marty Booker to Marshall,Royal,Stokely is a joke . Those guys couldnt get any separation were subject to the hard jams at the line .Not to mention we either went shotgun or a 3 step drop because we were so worried about pass protection.
The facts are
Orton and Grossman split reps all thru minicamp and training camp . The bears lost both starting receivers Berrian and Muhammad and its starting RB .the coaches were so worried about the O-line and pass protection which was horrid in 2007 that they went with two TE’s for much of the year and even devised a no huddle offense with it .
The Bears two best wideouts were Lloyd and hester . Hester didnt start until midway into the season but was hurt early and didnt catch up until the final 4 weeks .he has already admitted as such. Lloyd got hurt in week and didnt return until week 11 .
The Bears under Orton were top 3 in first quarter offense averaging like 10 ppg .The Bears expected a top 10 defense and instead got one of the worst in the league and no one expected the offense to be as good as it was.
Orton through the first 8 games heading into the Bye week
143-230 1,669 62% 7 ypa 10 tds 4 picks 91 QBR
he was on pace for something like 3800 yards 23 tds and 10 picks
coming off the bye against Lions he suffered a high ankle sprain and was in a walking boot . The bears won the Lions game but the following week against the Titans Grossman stunk it up so bad they fitted a walking boot to his shoe so he could play .
The Bears had a chance at the playoffs facing the texans on the last day of the season and the Bears blew another 10-0 lead to the Texans .Orton threw for 2 and ran for another but the Bears gave up 31 pts and couldnt stop Schaub and Johnson giving up almost 500 yards of offense .
Orton has his ups and downs and he left some chances on the field as well but what QB hasnt ? But the guy is a gamer and he is not mediocre . This is Ortons first year in the pros going into minicamp and training camp getting the majority of snaps with the first team . When a OC feels comfortable enough with you that he will run a no huddle at anytime during the game you are not mediocre . This is not an endorsement for him for the HOF but hes 26 coming off a solid season in which he got hurt midway thru it . he will play well and then you will say its the system or the receivers but he was playing well before then .
by strategik on Apr 5, 2009 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Excellent info
though the put-down was unnecessary, even if he was a Bears fan and not one of us. Your facts speak for themselves and are impressively detailed. Much appreciated and recommended.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
You sure sound like you're endorsing him for the HOF
You’re saying the reasons why Rex isn’t the QB anymore but are conviently leaving out the reasons Orton isn’t. Like I said, Orton is a decent, tough QB. But he is the definition of a mediocre QB. It’s not about who throws the prettiest spiral but it is about who can make the throws necassay to use the talent available on your roster. Not being able to hit an open reciever on a go pattern is a problem, I don’t care whether it’s Hester, Marshall, or Jerry Rice, an underthrown ball is an underthrown ball.Listen… he can’t make the throws. PERIOD. Your’e telling me that the guy doesn’t throw intercetions. I got 27 career interceptions staring me in the face that tells me otherwise. Those are facts. He’s a bust without the boom QB. He gives you all of the downsides without enough of the upsides to make him a better than a mediocre QB. That’s what Orton is. I watched him at Purdue and I watched evey snap he’s taken as a pro. He may not have had great Wide recievers but he had a good all around running back, 2 good tight ends and a decent line last year. Phillip Rivers has been playing under those circumstances since he’s been in the league. By the way, it’s not like Orton never played with decent recievers here. He played with Muhummed, Berrian, and Clark and he was still mediocre. I know he was a rookie but he has played with decent recievers. Maybe he’ll do better in a different system. Maybe he’ll have better numbers with better wide recivers. But he’s going into his 5th year as a pro and now all of a sudden he’s Bernie freaking Kosar. He’s not. He’s Kyle Orton.
Dils,
I haven’t read all of the comments yet so I’m probably repeating some of the points that have been already made.
First, the Broncos rushing offense was much better than the Bears’ last year. Shanahan prefered to go with a committee approach but that in no way undermines the Broncos’ effectiveness in running the football. The Bears ran the ball 47 more times than the Broncos last year for nearly 200 less total yards.
Second, you mentioned that Orton has lost some key games; however, Cutler is 0-5 in games that would have put the Broncos in the playoffs. So…seems like we’re about even there.
Third, it’s time for Chicago fans everywhere to wake up and realize that your defense is a shell of its former self.
Fourth, Cutler isn’t exaclty accurate in the deep ball either. If I had a penny for everytime he overthrew a wide open receiver then I’d have a lot of pennies. Furthermore, he will constantly force poorly conceived throws.
Fifth, Cutler stepped into about the most QB-friendly situation a young QB could ask for on offense. Honeslty, I think if Leinart had been given the same opportunities as Cutler then we might be talking about Leinart as the league’s next great QB. At the same time, Orton was placed into one of the most unfriendly QB situations.
Ultimately, Cutler is a good QB. However, I think Chicago fans need to temper their opinion of him somewhat. Really he has not proven much (other than that he has a serious attitude problem).
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
Cutler's arm is probably stronger
as evidenced by the fact that his overthrows were by about 5-10 yards.
Besides, a lot of the deep accuracy measurable depends greatly on the talent of the WR and the communication and timing between the two. Given Denver’s talent at WR, and Chicago’s, it’s not completely unreasonable to give the edge to Orton on that as well.
+100 Nutbag!
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 6, 2009 10:56 PM MDT up reply actions
What?
You posted: Fifth, Cutler stepped into about the most QB-friendly situation a young QB could ask for on offense. Honeslty, I think if Leinart had been given the same opportunities as Cutler then we might be talking about Leinart as the league’s next great QB. At the same time, Orton was placed into one of the most unfriendly QB situations.
I’m sorry, but wasn’t Matt Leinart throwing to Larry and Anquan? The best WR duo in the NFL? How did he not get the same opportunities? Also, about that attitude problem… I keep forgetting how did you get John Elway? Oh yeah, attitude problem. You Bronco fans are hilarious.
by surrealbears on Apr 28, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Great post
Thanks for the great insight and data!
by gnarlybroncodude on Apr 6, 2009 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton
He was established coming out of college as needing a few seasons to mature. Instead, he was tossed into the fire. The numbrs you are quoting are accurate, but like a lot of stats, they aren’t the full picture. Look at his climb in QB rating for the 40’s in 2005 to 79+ last year. Then look at all of this numbers and you’ll see that same growth.
I’m not saying that he will throw well beyond 30 yards, but it’s a rare thing that he’s asked to in the offense that Cassel won 11 games with last year. That’s not really the point. His INT numbers from last year exceed Cutler’s and his protection was poor. That’s all.
Hillis in '09
I disagree a little
The O-line last year was actually, suprisingly pretty good last year. So Orton had good protection. The issue the Broncos have is this the running game. I don’t think enough has been made of the fact that Orton has played with 2 pretty good backs (Thomas Jones and Matt Forte) Matt Forte carried a huge amount of the load last year and accounted for a lot of Orton’s yardage after the catch. If I’m not mistaken, the Broncos don’t have a running gameto speak of so where is that yardage coming from? You have a darn good tight end but the Bears had two of those. You have 2 great recivers but they’ll be limited in what they can do in terms of routes because of Orton’s limitations.
Okay
this whole “the Bear’s running game is so much better than the Bronco’s game” stuff has got to stop. Here are the stats:
Denver— 1862 yards (116.4 per game which was 12th in the league), 4.8 yards per carry (3rd in the league)
Chicago— 1673 yards (104.6 per game which was 24th in the league), 3.9 yards per carry (27th in the league)
So who had the better running game? Please don’t make me mention that we were on our SEVENTH running back by the end of the season.
Get a clue before you post that weak stuff on this site.
When you had Cutler
Those stats you just posted are when you had a mobile QB in Jay Cutler. Out goes the better in comes the worse. You now have Kyle Orton. Subtract 150 yards and where does that put you. 24th. Give that to Chicago and they are now 23rd. Also, now Chicago won’t be running against 8 in the box every play. Booyah!
by surrealbears on Apr 28, 2009 8:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Common misperception
Actually, the Broncos running game was better than the Bears, and the comparisions with the O line are telling. Please consider:
Denver: 12 sacks and one because Jay got spooked and just dropped the ball. Chicago: 27 sacks
Yards per carry – Denver, 4.8. Chicago 3.9.
Total yards rushing – Chicago, 1673 last season. Denver? 1862.
The fact that Bates, our OC, didn’t run when he should and that we had multiple injuries should have ended in poor stats. That wasn’t true at all, and has been mis-represented.
Rushing yards per game: Denver 116.4 Chicago, 104.6
I understand your points, but the numbers bring out a different story.
Hillis in '09
Another media myth!!!
The Broncos had the #12 rushing attack in the NFL, and as Bear pointed out, were #2 in YPC. Just because there were no fantasy darlings doesn’t mean that Denver couldn’t run the football. Denver had in fact a much better running game than Chicago! Despite losing 7 starters to injury.
All Chicago’s running game means is that cutler will throw 30% fewer passes for the same 7.3 ypa resulting in a relatively modest year.
Then why does Cutler
have over 600 attempts? Why did they not try to establish a running game? Why?
Poor play calling on the part of Bates
We’ve been saying that for what seems like forever. Bates and Cutler were too pass happy.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Exactly
Had the #12, then gave up mobile Jay Cutler for an immobile. That loss of about 150 yards puts you at #24 rushing offense. Also, now that you Orton you will be rushing against 8 in the box. There goes that YPC average. Chicago on the other hand will no longer be going against 8 in the box. It’s funny how you use stats with players that are no longer on your team.
by surrealbears on Apr 28, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions
But wait..
You just stated that stats can be misleading so how far should I accept the premise that the Broncos running game was better than the Bears. Perhaps we can agree that the bears have the better running back in Matt Forte. Or maybe we can agree that a guy that can have over 600 pass attempts and get sack only 11 times compared to a guy that got sacked 27 times out of 465 attempts an atestment to Cutler’s gifts than it is knock on the Bears O-line. Or maybe it’s a just critisizm of Kyle Orton for not being able to keep plays alive with his feet. One thing for sure, we’ll get to see how great that Broncos O-line really is when the QB can’t get out of the pocket. My point here is that there is no more room for error. The definition and dowwnside of a system QB is that he is dependent on the system. You aren’t winning or losing games based on a system QB. Everything else has to fall in place. This new coach in Denver ego is so big that he believes his “system” is more important than the player. Cutler is the absolute opposite of that idea. He’s a playmaker. He’s a difference maker. I don’t believe Orton is great at being either a sytem QB or a difference maker. McDaniels approach may or may not be true but one thing is for sure. He better be right.
you seem to have bought into the myth
that McDaniels didn’t want cutler. That has been so thoroughly discredited by now that not even the MSM continues it. It’s very clear that it was cutler who didn’t want to play for McDaniels, not the other way around.
As to how can we say that Denver’s running game was better than the Bear: I challenge you to provide a single statistical category in whihc the Bears running game outperformed Denver’s.
Bear has laid them out for you. If you want more in depth statistics check out Football Outsiders. Accept that fact that the MSM has perpetuated yet another myth.
Your leading rusher...
ran for 343 yards. You have a running back by commitee. Heck even Jay Cutler ran for 200 yards. I think there’s a difference between what the team rushed for and if you have a primary running back that can establish the run. Trust me I know that play calling has a huge effect on what a team has done on the field but again you leading rusher ran for 343 yards. Come on. Secondly if McDaniels wanted Cutler, why did he entertian the idea of trading him? I mean why is he even having the conversation about it? I mean really. The irony is that you don’t have to go any further to figue out how a controversy should be handled than the Patriots. Belichek didn’t waste any time trading away Cassell. He left no doubt about who his QB was. Why didn’t we hear anything leak out about the Pats listening to offers for Brady? You didn’t beccause there couldn’t be ANY doubts about who the QB is. It could’ve fractured the team, led to a stressful offseason, it could’ve pissed of Brady and… Wait a minute, isn’t that what happened in Denver?
Sorry, Dils, but you keep changing the subject and the ground is getting soggier ;-)
Running back by committee. Yep. So? I thought that the point of a running game was to gain yards?
McD etertained, briefly and without follow-up, the idea of trading for the QB he’s won 11 games with the previous year. Where, by the way, they had a running game by committee, and it also clobbered the Bear’s running game statistically.
Of course Belechick traded Cassel. He laid a franchise tag on him, made sure that they were getting Brady back and got value for him. Trade Brady? Why? He’s not publicly mendacious, a whiner or a lousy leader. Just saying.
Hillis in '09
Actually, if you read the Boston papers
there was talk about whether they should keep Cassel or Brady. Remember the 49ers traded Montana, Unitas was traded….
The leading rusher issue was one of injuries, 7 starting RBs went on injured reserve. that has nothing to do with quality of running game. In fact, the fact that we outgained Chicago by 200 yards on 50 fewer carries despite losing 7 starting RBs to injury should give you an indication of how much better our running game was than the Bears.
As to why McD “entertained” trading cutler, that’s a bit of a mis-characterization that the media has portrayed. He listened to an offer and rejected it. They never even got far enough to present it to the owner. Given the extensive holes we had at the end of last season I think it would have been irresponsible for him to have not listened to any offers. We’re not talking about a proven winner here; we’re talking about a guy with a lot of potential. At least in my mind there’s a huge difference, though clearly not in cutler’s mind.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 5, 2009 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well coming from my neck of the woods
where we’ve been looking for a QB for 50 or 60 years I just have a hard time understanding the circumstances surrounding the Cutler issue. Montana, and Unitas were traded in the sunset of thier careers, not the dawn. There could be more of an argumnet for the Pats trading Brady at what 31 yrs old? Coming off a knee injury, after a younger QB has proven himself in a system than to trade a 25yr old, fresh off a pro bowl appearance. All I hear are older players and people in the media saying that Cutler should “Man up” and “Grow up” but for the life of me I can’t think of another QB at this juncture of his career that has had to deal with talks of being being traded, after a pro bowl year no less. Let alone by an unproven, 32 year old coach. Cutler has more experience at his craft at this level than McDaniels does at his. I actually don’t blame Cutler one bit for being upset and wanting out. I think it was absolutely irresponsible for a new coach to come in and even listen to discussions of trading the QB of the second ranked offense in football and not start off looking at that defense. But I guess We’ll see what happens at the start this season.
Yes we were 2nd
in yards, but our offense was also 16th in scoring. First time a team has been in the top 5 in yards but outside the top half in scoring. So our offense could move the ball between the 20’s but not finish off the drive. We were decent but not good offesnively.
"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."
I keep hearing this and it's not accurate
It’s the first time a team has been in the top 5 in yards and outside the top 15 in scoring. At some point someone mistakenly assumed 16th was outside the top half and worded it that way, and since then others have just been passing on the error. I realize it’s not that inaccurate, but if we’re going to keep repeating something we might as well get it right.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
I think where the misconception comes in...
is if you look at total scoring for the entire season (not just the regular season) then Pitt passed us and we fell into 17th place.
I’m also not sure where the 17 2-minute drills and only one field goal comes from because I can think of 18 pts right off the top of my head: 8 at the end of the first SD game and 7 at the end of the Cleveland game.
Maybe, but I really doubt that anyone would include playoff scoring
It’s more likely that someone didn’t think, took 16th to be “out of the top half”, worded it that way, and since then it’s been passed from person to person in that form. But that’s just me. And I’m guilty too. If the only one field goal in 17 2-minute drill is misinformation, it’s misinformation I have (or did I?) or would have passed on if you hadn’t mentioned it. This sort of thing happens in history and biography, too. At some point misinformation is offered, often by a reputable source, then other historians/biographers keep passing it on by citing each other, without anyone thinking to go back and check the original source. Newton’s famous rejoinder to Halley’s dismissal of astrology, “Sir, I have studied the subject. You have not,” is one such instance. There’s no evidence that he ever said it.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
I believe the "2-min" stat
comes from McDaniel’s interview on 104.3TheFan.
Here is what he said (my transcription):
“We had 17 2-min drives last year. We scored 1 FG.”
I’m still digging to see exactly what that means…
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 5, 2009 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions
I've done the same....
I’m stumped as to what he meant by “2-min” drives. We scored several times in the last two minutes of halves going back to the last 2-minutes of the first half of the first SD game.
I put up a fanpost on the subject.
there is more than meets the eye there…
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 5, 2009 11:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Could he have meant...
…that we had 17 drives of two minutes or less (i.e. 3 and out) and ended up with only a single field goal?
Just a guess.
thats what he said
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
"We should have kept Seattle and dumped San Diego from the Division"
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
He listened to an offer and rejected it.
How do you know? Do you know McDaniels? Are you McDaniels? Hi Josh, how’s it going?
by surrealbears on Apr 28, 2009 8:54 AM MDT up reply actions
7 rb's on IR...
Granted there was no clear featured back in the first place, but if none of them got hurt the leading rusher would have gotten a lot more that 343 yards. That’s just common sense.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
I can see that
Is it better to be sacked 11 times (the 12th was a fumble that Cutler made without anyone around him) in over 600 attempts than 27 times in 465? Yes. Is it Orton not keeping plays alive. thats not what I’ve read, but sure, maybe. Is that what you are saying?
Will we get to see how good the Broncos O line is? Sure. I look forward to it. Clady is incredible, Harris nearly as good, Kuper gave up .5 sacks last year, so yes, I’ll be fine watching them.
Is a ‘system’ QB dependent on the system? Sure, by definition. Does Josh consider the HC bigger than a QB. Of course. So do most of us, as I know you can tell.
I think that it’s making you irritable that your arguments are being refuted. I don’t apologise. It’s normal on this site to have logical arguments, based on analysis, statistics and reason. The future will come regardless, and we will see who did the best on this trade. My suspicion is that it will be both teams.
Hillis in '09
No I'm not irritable at all
It’s just discussion. I’m actually enjoying it:)
Actually I've been watching video on Orton...
he looks to be a lot more mobile than I thought. He seems to have run quite a bit at Purdue and had a few plays where he showed mobility for Chicago. I saw a lot more plays where he seemed to get trapped in the pocket and not have the ability to escape. I don’t think he will conjure comparisons to Elway (a real Houdini in the pocket) but he’s more mobile than he’s given credit for.
Fair enough ;-)
Well, that said – you suggested that I mentioned that stats were misleading. Actually, I said the opposite:
The fact that Bates, our OC, didn’t run when he should and that we had multiple injuries should have ended in poor stats. That wasn’t true at all, and has been mis-represented.
Since you’re a good sport, let’s stay with stats and film analysis. The stats have shown pretty conclusively that the Bears o line was poor, comparatively. I noted a a few threads the changes that they have made, btw, so I’m trying to be fair.
However, the stats are what they are, and our running game, based in a one-cut variant of the zone blocking scheme has been among the most highly touted in the league over the past decade. The OC failed us last year, and the injury bug bit deep, but we still out-performed the Bears in nearly every major category of the running game. I know that the Bears talk about their run-based offense, but their effectiveness is less than the hype – or was last year, at least.
SWG below is a coach, so I’ll turn it over to him. Stop by anytime, Dils
Hillis in '09
actually
I think more of the reason our running game was not more effective is that the defense tried taking away the run because of our QB play. It was very effective for a good percentage of games but when the QB struggles teams loaded up on stopping the run which made it very difficult. Denver has always had a more balanced attack becuase you had a Qb that defenses feared. We were not so fortunate. We just had to bang our heads into the wall until we had to pass..
Fair enough
we didn’t run more because our ex-OC did a poor job; you didn’t run better for the same reason. Why is Turner still employed?
thank you
because Lovie Smith is loyal to a fault..maddening..we will be howling for Shanahan by the end of the year…
had a feeling
we’d start hearing that name from you guys!
Wouldn’t mind seeing him there, personally. Great coach + great fans + great tradition = great football team. (usually!)
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 6, 2009 11:07 PM MDT up reply actions
mistake by the lake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mistake_by_the_Lake
refers to cleveland, not soldier field.
"If God had wanted man to play soccer, He wouldn't have given us arms" - Ditka
Actually...
This was the name that some Chicago Bears fans named the NEW Soldiers Field after its renovation.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
LOL
The main difference is that Cleveland’s lake actually CAUGHT ON FIRE once. So I think they still own that title for now.
; )
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 6, 2009 11:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Great job boydy...
thanks for taking the time, and the insight.
rec’d
From there, I'd like to say that the wheels came off, but that wouldn't feel like an accurate description. The wheels didn't just magically come off, the Raiders all got out of the car, shot the wheels off the own car, busted out the taillights, smashed the windshield and poured Splenda in the gas tank. Then they all piled back inside and started screaming, "CAR WON'T MOVE, ME SAD NOW!" - MJD Yahoo Sports
I agree---great insight great read...
GO BRONCOS rec’d
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Apr 5, 2009 8:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Great post
and rec’d. After looking into KO with your links I now can sleep a little better. I am getting very excited about the draft and upcoming season! I would love it if we wern’t taken seriously and bit some AFC WESTers.
Tough times don't last.......Only tough people!
Great Post Boydy
This is a perfect MHR post. You have educated, entertained and enlightened. What’s more, you have generated a great conversation amoungst the fans.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast
Boydy: Although I've participated in the conversation
I haven’t stopped to state the obvious, that this was an excellent, thought-provoking post and obviously a fruitful one, to judge from the extensive commentary that has flowed from it. Nicely done.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Cassell
Orton this year and Cassell comes over next year through FA or trade
Boydy...
It took me awhile to get around to reading your post but sure am glead I did.
Great work dude.
Maybe Orton just had his “second draft-day too”. He has to be excited about this.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
Also...
with two QBs that are relatively young and haven’t necessarily been give the greatest opportunities so far in the NFL, I think it’d be crazy to draft a QB this year. Let’s give Simms and Orton some time to see what they are really capable of. If neither of them seems to be working out then we’ll draft a QB next year.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
AGreed PNB...
I think they both have upside for sure.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
HI EVERYONE, JUST WANTED TO SAY A BIG THANK YOU FOR ALL THE COMMENTS....MUCH APPRECIATED MY FRIENDS!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
Great post, boyd
Always a pleasure – sorry, already rec’d you. They don’t let us do it twice!
Hillis in '09
Thanks again
I’ve been having so much fun in this thread, boydy, I had to thank you again for getting the KO conversation rolling. Look at the great commenters we’ve had here, including those cool Bears fans. You’ve done MHR proud with this post. Good on ya, mate!
"I’m gonna take the lead of the guys who have the rings...It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you don’t win." -- Brandon Marshall
KO: LWLLWWWWWWWWLWWLLLWWWLLWWLWWLLWLWWWL
JC: LLWWLWWLLLWLLWWLLWLLWWWWLWLLLWWLWWLLL
by broncosmontana on Apr 6, 2009 11:10 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Boydy, thanks for the detail
I don’t have very much enthusiasm for QBs that aren.t strong armed, but I suppose I need to make the transition. Rec’d.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
Best Bronco Info
I have searched the web for years and have never found anything like this. Incredible research! Very insightful! Thanks for taking the time. And I love the “no smack” talk policy.
by Manwhoknewtoolittle on Apr 7, 2009 3:18 PM MDT reply actions
welcome aboard
and nice nick. I am a huge fan of the movie with Bill Murray.
Amnesty, the idea that you can forgive transgressions against you, gives as much to one side, as it does the other. It has the noble quality of bestowing mercy to both parties.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Apr 7, 2009 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions
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