Things change or else....
by asinsoin on May 1, 2009 12:58 PM MDT
83 comments
Let me start by saying I'm a UDFA to MHR and this is my first post on what I consider to be the best sight with the most informed and football savvy membership I've ever seen, (so please forgive me if any of this is redundant). Regardless of the opinion of BroncoNations current state I've read better analysis here for the past 2 weeks than i've read in the MSM in 2 years, HT's breakdown of the draft was indeed brilliant (especially the magician comparative).
Let me start by saying I haven't always been a Bronco fan, I became one in 1983 when Elway became a Bronco. Having personally witnessing him destroy my #1 ranked 1980 OU sooners 31-14 in Norman. An individual performance that I'll never forget. Once Elway became a Bronco I became addicted to the Orange and Blue and remain so to this day.
So as a fellow Kool-Aid drinker here's my take on the state of the Bronconation and why we are soooo much better off now than 6 months ago. First let's talk football physics for a moment. When it comes to QB's 1) Stronger isn't necessarily better ( remember Elway didn't win his championship until after he tore his bicep and lost about 10 mph and 15 yards on the long ball) He was forced to compensate by adjusting his reads going through his progressions and checking down more often and consequently had his best statistical seasons at the end of his career (and yeah TD helped a lot as well). My point here is that a disciplined QB who plays within the system while not as much fun or frustrating to watch sometimes will win far more games than the gunslinger who believes he can make the play with sheer ability. Yes it's better to have both if you can get it but how often have you seen it. I'll take a system guy with strong character and leadership skills, thank you. When it comes to RB's, CB's and WR's 2) Faster isn't necessarily better (sorry Al Davis). I know that the knock on Knowshon and Alphonso are that they're not speed demons, both however are credited with exceptional field vision and football instincts, now that I think about it the same goes for Mcbath and Mckinley . You pick, Nate Webster or Randy Gradishar Nate ran a 4.55 40 coming out of Miami and Randy once said he was so slow he couldn't run out of sight in 2 days. So what's the point? The point is that Josh get's it! Josh also gets that football is a team sport and no 1 player can be elevated above the team as Cutler was. I suspect (and hope) that Josh gets it on many more levels as well. I remember when Bronco Nation was up in arms about replacing the legend Dan Reeves who had become resistant to change with some hotshot from San Fran who wanted to change everything.
Finally while I applaud Pat Bowlen for his loyalty to Shanny ( 1 of my all time favorite coaches) IMO he waited about 4 years too long. Change or else.....
Your thoughts and critique will be much appreciated.
2009 = 9-7 2010= 12-4 2011= Super Bowl Baby!!!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Great Read Rec'd
We have a lot of things to do to get to super bowl contention. In reality I think we go 9-7 or 10-6 but I think we have to have a 13-3 season and get blown out in the playoffs to make us REALLY want it!
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
"We should have kept Seattle and dumped San Diego from the Division"
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
Yeah baby!
I love three year plans!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
I think you have an
excellent timeline for how this young team should develop.
Great first post and welcome. Rec’d
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
Nice first post. Rec'd
I agree with your points and like the positive view. I’ve said before that football is not a track meet, so speed, while nice to catch someone from behind, isn’t really the be all of a football player.
Thanks.
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
I Agree With You
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
My three year plan:
2009= 11-5
2010=12-4
2011=14-2
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
division champs in all three years
super bowls in 10 and 11. winning both of course.
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
by Joe Medina on May 1, 2009 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can't wait until we are .500 in the SB
4-4 within 4! In McD we trust!
If we could have just screwed another head on his shoulders, he would have been the greatest QB who ever lived.
Great first post an rec'd! I NEVER knew that injury happened to Elway....great info!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
how right you are
I remember Gradishars long int return for a touchdown – something like 95 yards and a little over five minutes off the clock :) He never gave up, had blocks from everyone on the team and I think a few from the otherside as well. It does not matter how fast you are if you can be the first person to point X when you want tobe. The first thing is knowing where point X is before anyone else and taking the best route to get there – our new guys seem to have this ability by instinct.
Disagree on the 9-7 thing – take away the turnovers and we were better than that last year – there should be no doubt this years team is much better than last years.
by Flunkie on May 1, 2009 1:41 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
I’d like to say 12-4 this year too flunkie but with the schedule , system changes and a few holes to fill I’ll be happy with 9-7. Boydy, the injury was kept quiet until after the 97 season for obvious reasons kinda like in hockey.
I think San Diego might be doing some of the same
with regards to LT. I think they are worried about his health going forward more than they are letting on, which is why they were so interested in Moreno.
"according to the map, we've only gone 4 inches"
At the time, D. Sproles hadn't signed his tender, either
they are going to like Gartrell Johnson, though
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Signed it the two days after the draft:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4108619
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
Convenient EH
Just after the draft he signs….
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
"they are going to like Gartrell Johnson, though"
Sadly, I’m afraid we aren’t going to like Gartrell.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Agreed
I think he was a steal…I’m a Rammie so hopelessly biased (I have a Van Pelt Broncos jersey lol).
"From the get-go, we targeted a certain type of player: tough, smart, competitive, versatile, a good person that loves football and wants to win." -Coach McDaniels
by Colorado_Kitten on May 1, 2009 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks man!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
Well said, in article and comments
The NFL isn’t a track meet. Skill at the positions is far more important that in line speed in the 40. It’s a fine tool for matching basic skillsets, but beyond that, it’s fairly meaningless. No one goes up to the best football players at the positions and demands that they learn track
Hillis/Moreno in '09
yes he was the fastest to the wrong spot
and the fastest to turn his head and see who he missed ;-)
by dmitchell624 on May 2, 2009 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions
The only thing about speed is that you can't 'learn' speed.
Speed can’t be taught…it is an agility that you are born with. If you have speed, you have speed…if you don’t, you don’t. You can learn how to catch, but you can’t learn how to get faster. Great post by the way.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
You're exactly right
There’s no substitute and coupled with talent (Champ comes to mind) it’s lethal. I think that too often people fail to do the additional work necessary to be successful at the pro level though. Whether it’s speed or strength.
Look For Speed
As a compliment not the requirement.
I would look for guys who are versatile smart and athletic first and then look for the ones with speed in that group.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
Yeah, I agree that speed shouldn't be the priority, but the raiders wanted him b/c of his speed,
so he could stretch the field for them. Do I think they should’ve taken Crabtree…you bet. But luckily they didn’t. Now they have to teach this kid how to catch. By that time, they will have drafted another WR. That’s how the raiders work.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
Right
But it is true he has to catch the ball first. If he can’t you are screwed because you can’t stretch the field with someone that nobody is worried about.
So I would say go for the guy with the proven hands first, if he can learn routes or just has other talent you got a good receiver at least.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
Right, which is why they should've taken Crabtree, but old Al doesn't seem to get it.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
That seems to be
The direction Josh is heading, few people look for versatility though, i htink it’s underrated.
Exactly!
My roots are in Denver and my branches in Nebraska.
by Blackshirt4Broncos on May 1, 2009 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
not so fast
Speed can definately be coached. Take a trip to the OTC some time and talk with the coaches there. There is a very definate technique to speed that can be taught. My lil bro was a D lineman until he became too small, his coach took him aside and worked on his foot speed until he could beat me (pretty quick in my time) – made a real good line backer.
Technique can be taught for sure...
And quick muscle twitch can be improved with training, but some guys naturally have better and faster quick muscle twitch than others, regardless of what you do.
There have been YEARS of study on it. For example, African Americans are more pre disposed to quick muscle twitch, thus the reason you see success in sprinting, running backs etc (please, this is a generalization). On the other side of the fence, caucasians are more inclined to have more gradual muscle twitch with increased endurance that lens it self to sports like swimming and positions in football like centers and guards etc (another generalization).
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
ya beat me to the punch!
I definitely agree…
My roots are in Denver and my branches in Nebraska.
by Blackshirt4Broncos on May 1, 2009 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I am certainly not a doctor but the word speed needs defined
For this argument to be valid the terms used must be defined. I feel that the word speed is being tossed around loosely which clouds your point.
My initial reaction is “huh?” Speed cannot be taught, but “hands” can be? Seemed contradictory. There are many, many fundamentals and techniques athletes learn. If they really give it 100% do they ever stop learning how to be faster? How to catch better?
Speaking for myself I do not see things in black and white. I believe the world is filled with grays. Now onto playing devil’s advocate…
If speed cannot be taught why is there track or cross country training/practice? Natural, genetic kinetic intelligence would fall into the category of “unteachable”. The thing is, even the most kinetically gifted athletes must learn the fundamentals of how to run the most effectively. Taking someone with horrible running technique and lots of natural speed and teaching them the fundamentals will make you faster. Thus, speed in this sense was indeed taught. There are many variables that contribute to how fast someone is. I only mention a couple here.
This brings me to my next thought. I have not seen the aspect of instincts and intelligence being factored in to how fast a football player is. To illustrate:
- player A runs the 40 .25 seconds faster than player B.
- player A runs the cone drill .15 seconds faster than player B. Etc., etc., etc.
- player A turns heads at the combine while player B is labeled too slow
- player B has wonderful instincts and a high “football IQ” and as a result is able to read and react to plays quicker than player A – let’s say an average of just one half of a second per play
When only considering these two factors and adding them together:
- player B now runs the 40 .25 seconds faster than player A during a play
The point is I do not believe it matters how “fast or quick” you are if you are also slow at reading and reacting. Possessing both kinetic intelligence and being to read and react quicker than others is what I would call a lethal combination. The NFL seems to be moving in a direction where this lethal combination will actually be necessary to succeed in the NFL.
In addition, passion, desire, and momentum are a couple more major contributors to how fast someone plays the game of football. Like I’ve said, many, many factors determine how fast someone is and I respectfully disagree. Speed can be learned and taught.
My roots are in Denver and my branches in Nebraska.
by Blackshirt4Broncos on May 1, 2009 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Right on the money
With teams spending millions a year for an extra 10th of a second it will not be long before there are specialized coaches for for sprints and agility – but it is all for naught – the first guy that gets there wins, and that is the guy who makes the quickest decission.
Exactly....give me an elusive guy that is more reactive and wont take hits vs a guy with straight line speed but the elusiveness of a common house brink!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
I think that you might like this
As usual, our own HT (Hoosierteacher, resident professor of footballogy) has covered this topic for us – this link is a great start to comprehending this subject. And Blackshirt – nice job.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I just learned a valuable lesson...
That I’ll share with the hope of helping someone else avoid it.
- If you’re getting all “deep winded” in a comment – write the comment in an independent word processor with auto recovery if possible.
Writing responses in the gray box is a risk sometimes not worth taking – let me tell ya.
My roots are in Denver and my branches in Nebraska.
by Blackshirt4Broncos on May 1, 2009 11:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Speed can be misleading
They run the 40 in shorts, similar to what track stars do. I could care less how fast somebody runs in shorts…..I think the idea of the 40 is basically flawed, but at least have them run it in full pads starting from a more natural standing football position. As I said, even this way would only be partially informative as football is very rarely a straight ahead, no obstacle sprint.
Light bulb just went on!!!
Great point, this could be the beginnings of a really good post.
"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam
by lovewatchinthegame on May 2, 2009 11:40 PM MDT up reply actions
My three year plan:
8-8
13-3 First Round Loss
12-4 Super Bowl
I cant help but mimic out previous Super Bowl run. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
Yeah
That’s the problem with that 13-3 record, both times we’ve had it we’ve lost at home in the first round. Unfortunately, I was at both of them. Fortunately, those are not the only games I’ve been to.
I promise to stay home if we end up 13-3. ;)
by AllBroncsallday on May 1, 2009 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Actually it's 3 times
84 13-3 with a loss to Pittsburgh in the Divisional Playoff
96 13-3 with a loss to Jacksonville in the Divisional Playoff
05 13-3 with a loss to Pittsburgh in the AFC Championship game
Maybe we should petition Mike Clark to make the chant 14-2 (not quite the same ring to it, but maybe it will avoid any jinxes)
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
LOL.....Nope........13-3 stands.........We will overcome!!
.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Besides...Silverblood made this avatar for me---and I like it....LOL
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
I wasn't serious
I love the 13-3 chant :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
True
Maybe it’s NOT cursed/jinxed then!
OK, I’m on-board, 13-3!!
by AllBroncsallday on May 3, 2009 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Do you really think
That the chargers are going to be that bad this year? I think last season was a fluke! I hate to say it but I see the chargers winning at least 10 games this year and not only that but we may be unpleasently surprised by both the chefs and the faders. This is going to be a tough couple of years for our Broncos but with that being said I do believe we are headed in the right direction. I do think it is very possible we will have the offensive rookie of the year (Moreno) the question is how will our D hold up to this tough schedule we are facing. One things for sure….with this schedule we are facing we are going to find out real fast where this team is headed!!!!!!
by broncosorbust on May 1, 2009 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Hey Bust...
Actually, no, I dont see it.
They have problems across both lines that they did little to correct in FA or the draft.
Think we have problems at NT (I actually dont think we do) but the Chargers do, as well as questions at DE. Merriman is back, and already talking, so that is one upside for them, but they still have questions with the health of Gates and LT….and still questions at WR.
I see them dropping further still. They have a tougher schedule too dont forget.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
boydy
I wish that I shared your surety, although I do share your enthusiasm. They do need help (mostly depth) on the D line. They did a pretty good job of shoring up the o line, although it will need more. Merriman is back, they added Larry English from my old alma mater and with Shaun Phillips, they have a very good LB corps. Their secondary is suspect, but they did a pick up some help there. We are likely to hate them having LDT, Sproles and Gartrell Johnson – I love Johnson’s attitude and work.
I’m not quick to see them dropping. Rivera has revived their defense. They’re going to be tough.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I must agree with boydy on this one
SD’s weaknesses are in the trenches on both sides of the ball. They have made moves to shore up the O Line, but this may or may not pan out. I think we can win the AFC West this year.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
I am not sure...
Norv Turner is known for getting the least out of his team possible.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
I agree
The Dolts will begin the season thinking they are head and shoulders above the rest of the ACF West. By the time they realize the err in that thinking during week 6 I think it could likely play out like this:
SD will win their opener (oak) but drop their next 3 (Balt, Mia, Pit) headed into week 6. The Broncos will have won their first 3 (Cin, Cle, Oak) followed by 2 hard fought losses (Dal, NE).
Broncos throw a beat down on the Dolts & they find themselves headed into Weak 7 looking up in the standings at a tough, efficient, well run Broncos team (that just embarrassed them at home) as they are 1-4 and the Broncos are 4-2.
McD & Orton = biggest surprise story in NFL in 2009
Nolan & D = pleasantly surprised but room for improvement (better than last year for sure)
SD = franchise in decline
Broncos = AFC West Champs in 2009
GO BRONCOS!!!
If we could have just screwed another head on his shoulders, he would have been the greatest QB who ever lived.
Nice
I agree of course Pioli in KC concerns me. They might start to turn around about the same time we do.
Oakland…well it is easy to think they aren’t going anywhere but they have some stability at coach now and I never want to turn my back on them.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
Tis better no to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
SD cannot win on the east coast
unfortunately, there aren’t as many of those games this year. At home, it depends on which team shows up.
I lean toward Bear’s assessment. I think they have some serious question marks, particularly in the trenches and in the secondary (and LDT doesn’t scare me as much as he once did), but Rivera really turned the defense around last year. Coming back from 4-8 to beat the Colts in the first round of the playoffs really impressed me. This team won’t give up easily, regardless of whether they’re in decline or not, and that’s always dangerous. I look forward to Denver assuming the “never say die” confidence, which seems to have been missing in the past few years.
Loved your points (rec'd)
Arm strength is overrated — I’d take accuracy any day
Speed is not measured right — need to look at reaction times, rather than splits
And on defense, it’s more important to be able to judge the best angle to the ball.
Like your 3-year timeline, though I’m inclined to go
2009 10-6 with a wildcard spot
2010 11-5 with a division title
2011 13-3 with a Super Bowl appearance
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
At 10-6 we are AFC west champs
I do not see SD improving to 11 wins. To get to 10 wins we need to beat SD at least once and beat up on the rest of the division so tie breakers should go to us
I can live with that :)
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
oops that should have read "sprints"
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
I would be sooo happy with 9-7 this year.
But ultimately I’m not concerned with record. I mean, we probably aren’t going to win the divisino and there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that we win the Super Bowl. I think that the true measuring stick of this team is the amount of blowouts we give up. If we can make it through that brutal week 4-14 stretch and break even while remaining competitive in every game, I think we’ll definitely be on the right track. But if we break even and all the losses are 40-7, then I’ll be concerned for our future.
The bottom line is, I want the New Broncos to be a team that beats the teams they should and stay competitive in all the rest. Super Bowl in 2012 baby!! I like it.
WE GOT MORENO!!!!
I think there is a huge difference between
Track speed and games speed. There are a lot of guys in the NFL that can run sub 4.4 40s with shorts only. Most of these guys cannot run the same speed with pads on. I also think stamina is a very underrated value. Yea Knowshon and A. Smith run around a 4.5 40 but that is not slow. The big thing with Moreno and Smith is that they play the whole game from start to finish at the same 4.5 speed. There are a lot of players in the NFL that have awesome speed at the begining of the game but their speed diminishes through the duration of the game. My best example is Devin Hester. When Hester was only do KR and PR he was sensational. The minute the Bears started using him at WR and KR/PR he was not the same. The more minutes Hester plays the more his speed goes away. Moreno and Smith might only run a 4.5; which is not slow; but they run 4.5 from kickoff to the last play of the game.
by gnarlybroncodude on May 1, 2009 5:32 PM MDT reply actions
I agree totally with papi, close competitive games and defensive improvement
I want to drink the koolaid with you boydy, but I’m not sold on our nose tackle situation quite yet. I hope your right though.
Great First Post asi....
I also believe in a three year plan and noticed that a few people have given their win/loss projections—-I feel compelled to give mine:
2009….13-3
2010….13-3
2011….13-3
.
.
Once again…Great First Post !!
.
Playoffs here we come !! Go Broncos !!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
You stand strong Mike Clark....
Funny, thats my plan too!
Except…
2012 19 -0
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
LOL only you boydy lol.
To boldly go (beyond La La Land) where no man has gone before!!!
.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
.
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Jerry Rice ran a 4.71...
Ask Deion Sanders if that mattered.
If a coach drafted a player on speed alone,
I would question his ability to efficiently coach. Your first year is totally WRONG asinion!!! 13-3 Baby!!!
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