The MHR Denver Broncos Hall of Fame Committee: An Introduction
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Earlier this year the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class was announced, and once again there were no Broncos inducted. There was anger and outrage, it was called a travesty, then it was called a travesty again. It was out of those posts a committee was born. No more weeping and gnashing of teeth, we're taking action. With Guru advising and some help from Zappa, a committee consisting of Jezru, studbucket, firstfan, and SlowWhiteGuy was formed with the purpose gathering data and opinions to create an organized campaign to get more Broncos in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
In this first post we will be giving you an update on the plan, purpose, and progress of this committee, and look for feedback and help from you guys! MHR is far and away the best Broncos community on the web, and I think that by leveraging our passion, intelligence, and numbers, we can influence the voters the way Redskins fans were able to influence Art Monk's induction. We have chosen one current candidate and one senior candidate to focus our efforts on this year, and we've been emailing voters to get feedback and opinions on the candidates. Learn about our candidates and findings after the jump!
The Candidates
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Shannon Sharpe - A 14 year NFL veteran (12 with Denver), Sharpe was an 8-time Pro-Bowler and made 4 All-Pro teams while managing to win 3 Super Bowls and block for 2 different 2000 yard rushers. When he retired after the 2003 season, Sharpe was the NFL's all-time leader in receptions, yards, and touchdowns by a tight end. Sharpe was loved in Denver and reviled by opposing fans because of his propensity to have a big mouth and make even bigger plays.
Floyd Little - Little played all 9 years of NFL career in Denver, making 5 Pro Bowls and 1 All-Pro team. Little played for some truly awful Denver teams, never seeing a winning record until his 7th season. However, that wasn't his fault, because of his game-changing ability and the excitement he brought to the game, he helped sell out Broncos games and bring revenue to the team, earning him the nickname "The Franchise". Little retired in 1975 with 6,323 rushing yards, good enough for 7th all-time.
The Feedback
We emailed many of the of Pro Football Hall of Fame voters and got responses from 12 of the voters regarding Shannon Sharpe and current candidates and 2 responses about Floyd Little and the veteran's committee. Below you'll find a section for both Sharpe and Little with a sample of our initial emails and some of the responses from the candidates conveying their thoughts and general attitude toward the candidate.
Shannon Sharpe
Sample email:
Mr. Sportswriter
I'm emailing you because I'm interested in hearing your take on Shannon Sharpe, and why he did not quite make it into the Pro Football Hall of Fame of this past year. It's not that I don't feel that the candidates who made it in this past year were not deserving, because they were. It's just that I was surprised to see he did not make the cut after retiring as arguably the greatest receiving TE in NFL history and having blocked for two 2000-yard rushers.
Was it just a matter of it being his first year, while other deserving candidates like Derrick Thomas and Ralph Wilson Jr. have been on the list for a few years now?
Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response
Responses
Basically, everyone feels that Sharpe should and will make the Hall of Fame. Some this year, some next, and some just say he will make it at some point. See various responses below.
I realized after my first years voting just how hard it is to select the class because someone deserving is always left out. The veterans on the committee always preach patience, that candidates
I not only voted for him, but I was 1 of 3 or 4 people who spoke on his behalf at our Board of Selectors meeting. Shannon had a Hall of Fame career and hopefully gets his just reward next year. FYI nobody had anything negative to say about Shannon during the discussion. I think he got caught up in the annual numbers game and there was strong sentiment to vote 91 year old Ralph Wilson in while he was still alive.
Those who make it "in the room" for a few years usually get in. Derrick Thomas is a great example. So was Art Monk the year before. In my view Sharpe has very strong credentials and that fact is very widely recognized. ... The fact he didn't get in in year one, in my opinion, is not a commentary on him. There's a backlog of candidates and other guys have been waiting a lot longer. ... Lynn Swann had to wait until his 14th year of eligibility, Don Maynard his eighth, Fred Biletnikoff his fifth, Carl Eller his 19th, I believe, just to name a few, and it's not because the voters said "Make them wait!" it's becuase there are 15 finalists, and none of them stink (which is to say they're all great to one degree or another)
There are a lot of deserving candidates out there. Some have stats, some don’t. If a player belongs in the Hall of Fame, he’ll get in.
Shannon Sharpe will be in the Hall of Fame eventually, probably much sooner rather than later. Right now, all Hall of Fame voters are having trouble struggling to quantify the receiving numbers that are starting to flow in. These numbers are very inflated from previous years and speak more to the trends in the game than individual talents. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, and I will vote for Sharpe in the future. I did not vote for him this year because I felt there were other people more deserving at this time.
As for Shannon, I just think voters favored others. Cris Carter has now missed out for two years. I don't believe the receiver thing was really a factor, because like I said, I'm sure he will get it at some point.
Don't worry about Shannon. He will be in the Hall of Fame, as are almost everyone who makes the finals his first year. I didn't campaign for him because I don't campaign for anyone; I'm a voter. I voted for him on the first ballot and maybe the second; I honestly don't remember. But unless you're someone like Jerry Rice or Emmitt Smith, who will make it next year in their first year of eligibility, there's a certain amount of seniority involved. Shannon may not make it next year either depending on the dynamics of the vote but he'll be in within four or five years.
Shannon Sharpe will get in the Hall of Fame. I'm not sure who we would have left off to get him in this year. All of the guys going in this year are worthy. He's worthy too, and like I said, he will get in. It's a matter of when, not if. A lot of it is timing. Look how long Derrick Thomas had to wait. He was as worthy his first year as he was this year.
On whether the number of receivers in next year's class will affect Sharpe's chances:
I don’t consider position a factor, but I can’t speak for the other voters. I’ve already voted for Cris Carter twice and I wouldn’t hesitate again, even if Rice is a shoo-in next year.
On determining whether a candidate is worthy or not:
Remember one thing. The HOF is forever. We aren't looking for best players in a decade or a generation necessarily. I'm looking for somebody who MUST be remembered...say 100 or 200 years from now because of their profound influence on the game. Yes, that's a high standard. It should be. To lower the bar would devalue the Hall of Fame. We don't want it to be easy. We don't want it to be seen years from now as the Hall of Very Good...
Personally, I go through the process one step at a time..comparing candidates each time ...and the final list is what it is. I don't remember ever voting no on a player who made the final 6 because I think if they made it that far they might as well get in this time rather than clog up the process again another year. But that's me.....There are so many HOF worthy players who are not in.....It's frustrating. I can probably name two or three per franchise who should be in....But I am a soldier and I follow the process and do the best i can.
On whether candidates have a greater chance because of how long they have waited:
I think there might have been some of that with Roger Wehrli a couple of years ago. It was his last chance on the modern-era ballot. I'm just guessing. I don't know that. Maybe this year with Ralph Wilson, too, since he's getting up there in age. But I don't think that's why either of them got in. They got in because they are deserving.
On the small amount of HoFers from Denver:
The small number of Broncos players I realize is an issue in Denver, and the only thing I can figure is the feeling that they had a lot of very good players that made for very good teams, but not a large number of great players that would be Hall of Famers. I think it will be interesting when this Patriots era concludes, how many of their players will be Hall of Famers. It's early, but my sense is there won't be many.
Floyd Little
Sample email:
I am trying to determine the criterion that the senior committee uses to select players for the Hall of Fame. With all of the players who fall into the senior category, I imagine the task can be somewhat daunting. The number of eligible players is growing every single year, and we all want to see some of our old favorites make it in, but with even less media coverage of the senior selections it's hard to know how the process works.
I'm particularly interested in some players from the AFL days, and how you measure them against their NFL counterparts.If you would let me know what you look for in a player to be selected from the senior committee I would greatly appreciate it.
Responses
As you can see, our email wasn't specifically about little, we were trying to learn more about the senior committee and how it functioned before proceeding with his campaign.
There are nine of us on the seniors committee. We're also on the regular selection committee. Of the nine, five of us go to Canton every August on a rotating basis to vote on the two senior nominees, who automatically become finalists.
In Canton, the Hall of Fame brings in two members of the Hall of Fame to help us go over the candidates. We also have access to everything said in that meeting for the last 30 to 40 years by everyone the Hall has brought in to help the Seniors Committee.
For instance, I know what Tom Landry said about his candidates, Lombardi, Mara, etc.We have a lot of information, and then we have to vote on the two nominees. I wish those nominees were rubber-stamped for induction by our regular committee, but, unfortunately, they're not. We didn't vote in Claude Humphrey this year to go with Bob Hayes. I felt terrible for Claude.
The thing to remember about players on the senior committee ballot, for the most part, is that there re no slam dunks. If they were a slam dunk, they'd already be in, most probably. So it becomes a matter of degrees, of determining what impact a player might have had, how it has stood the test of time, and occasionally of finding someone who made an impact and was overlooked, like Bob Hayes this year.
I can assure you that there are fans and team people in every city in the NFL who believe they have deserving players not in the Hall of Fame, and, frequently, they will accuse the committee of being biased against "their" guy.
I have a very simple test that I apply on Hall of Fame voting: Can you write the history of the game without the man? If you can't, then you need to look at him very, very closely.
What's Next?
As a committee, we've completed round 1 of the process. We've gathered some initial feedback and tested the waters, and we are ready to move on to phase 2. What will phase 2 entail? We are looking four things:
1) Send out emails to the senior committee members dealing specifically with Floyd Little. Mention his credentials, his importance to the Denver franchise, and see how often his name has come up in discussions.
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2) Do more research on Sharpe so we are ready to bring hard-hitting stuff when the candidates are announced.
3) Determine the role of Broncos fans and the MHR community in this effort. At some point an email campaign will be used, but at what time and in what capacity has not been determined.
4) Get feedback from you! This may be the most important one. We posted this here so all of you could be kept apprised of what's been going on, and so we could get some feedback. What do you think of the feedback we have received from voters? How would you move forward? Do you have any questions or suggestions?
We hope that this committee can have a definite impact each and every year and help to get some Bronco greats the recognition they deserve. Our approach will be fine-tuned every year, and we should be able to accumulate a lot of feedback and different perspectives from voters, which allow us to most effectively market our players. With MHR, the Hof Committee, and Broncos fans working together, we can achieve some great things.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
16 recs |
88 comments
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Comments
Great Job Guys!!!
This is a huge undertaking and by the looks of it you guys are going to nail it and get several former Broncos to where they deserve – the hallowed halls of Canton, OH.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
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by John Bena on May 14, 2009 10:15 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Phenomenal!!
A textbook example of how MHR transcends fandom to bring us insight into the game we love at large. Great thought is obviously going into this and in my view you’re striking exactly the right tone so far. Keep up the excellent work, and when you’re ready for the letter writing campaign to begin, count me in!!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 10:32 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
+ 1
and then some.
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on May 14, 2009 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Do!
You’ve been enthusiastic about this the whole time, and I definitely haven’t forgotten :)
I can’t wait until we can really open this thing up and get going.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
we may need your film skills more....
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
happy to help however I can!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I big ole rec from me.
I will say one thing, if we’re able to get Floyd Little in then I plan to have the biggest farking party ever!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 10:51 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll be there!
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on May 18, 2009 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work guys!
Thanks for representing our team (and us) so well. I’ll be happy to send an email or two if/when that becomes helpful. Rec’d of course.
by NedBronco on May 14, 2009 11:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Outstanding studbucket, great work. 13-3 Baby!!!
Lets hope…
by bfree2bronc on May 14, 2009 11:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
But it’s not just me, 5 other people have helped a lot!
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was reading through that last “travesty” link and it is amazing how this committee was born and then to see how far it has come. I had no doubts, but whatever doubts I had about eventual success are quickly evaporating. I gave us a 50-50 shot at making a difference back then, now I would have say its more like a 100% certainty.
I had hoped to participate more, like I did during the beginning, but circumstances have made that difficult. I am sure that will change later this year…damn economy!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:21 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Is there a list of Broncos
who have made an impact on the NFL and deserve the Hall?
by bfree2bronc on May 14, 2009 11:23 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ironically, I am currently working on a list myself.
I wasn’t going to publish it until Induction Day. ;-)
Tell me, how did Bob Hayes impact the NFL? Or Art Monk? Most Inductees did not impact the entire league at all…they impacted their TEAM and their FANBASE. When a writer throws out that “How did they change the game” bull crap about former Bronco greats then I stop listening because it is obvious these people are not interested at all in honoring Bronco players.
Disclaimer: Bob Hayes and Art Monk were great players…but my argument was only about the fact they did not impact the NFL or the sport as a whole. Thus making that argument from “voters” moot and outright bias. The Hall of Fame is about honoring great players, regardless of team. A player can be great without changing the game or impacting the entire league for generations and most HOF Inductees are exactly that. They were great without doing those things.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1!
I’d say that a very few players truly impact the entire sport as a whole. You can name guys like Lawrence Taylor who redefined pass rushing, or Dan Marino who basically rewrote the record books for quarterbacks, but most of the HOF guys were great football players whose impact was mostly on their fans and their teams, not the league and the sport as a whole.
That said, how can the one guy talk about guys like Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice like they are some sort of level above Sharpe? For his position, almost no one in the history of the sport has performed at a higher level and lead his team for as long in the ways that Shannon did. Smith and Rice are truly great players and will be enshrined, but can you honestly put them on another field apart from Shannon Sharpe? Come on.
by BroncosBassist on May 14, 2009 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say this about this whole effort
it is ok to debate the veracity of already inducted members as long as we are here at MHR, but in our communications with the voters, that needs to be left at home, even the comparisons of our players to those types of players.
Such arguments carry ZERO weight, and are only good for ranting exercise. Any Broncos that get enshrined by a commitee sponsored by MHR will get in as ends in themselves, not as loopholes, and not leaning on any other “questionable” players induction.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
True that.
Never ever compare our players to current HOF inductees to the voters. In the realm of unmitigated opinion sure, in fact, I make a comparison to Gradishar and Harry Carson in my upcoming post, but only because its opinion. If you contact these voters, don’t ever bring up other HOF members as proof. You will get insta-deleted for sure. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
fyi
I defended Carson’s HOF worthiness in my upcoming post, so no worries about that. ;-) The comparison solely on the basis of fandom and self perpetuating bias. Perhaps the bias exists because we, the fanbase, allows it to exist. Ok, that’s all I am saying. You all just have to wait for it! :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Bob Hayes,
I believe his speed was a factor that was much talked about during that time. A track star playing in the nfl was an innovation that had a direct affect on football.
by bfree2bronc on May 14, 2009 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salient point
I have a very simple test that I apply on Hall of Fame voting: Can you write the history of the game without the man? If you can’t, then you need to look at him very, very closely.
I think this is the essential question we need to address as we prepare these cases. As fans of the franchise, we should be able to answer it without flinching or hesitation.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 11:30 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ray Guy....
does not fit the bill… Sorry Ray.
It's pronounced Moreno, not Marino.
by Jezru on May 14, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
See my argument above...
That statement is a total fallacy. I can promise you that a majority of players in the HOF doesn’t have to be mentioned when writing the history of the game. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have the answer for Floyd
It is pretty simple actually. How much different does the history of hte NFL look if their is no franchise in Denver? Nuff said.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
nuff indeed!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice Styg!
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 14, 2009 7:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
When I think of Floyd and what a great player he was, I honestly can’t think of his play that changed the way football was played around the league Bob Hayes for instance was the first world class speed player that changed football.
“He changed the game because of his speed,” Hall of Fame coach Don Shula said. “He wasn’t just the world’s fastest human, he was a great athlete and football player. Put that together, and he made you change everything on your defense when you played the Cowboys.”
Teams around the league looked at Dallas and saw that they had an advantage with Hayes, because nobody could keep up with him. That was a factor in Hayes getting into the HOF. (regardless of his criminal history)
I think that the AFL teams that played Denver always keyed on #44 because he WAS the offense. The Passing game was never a big threat in the late 60’s. In 1971, Floyd rushed for more than half the yards that were gained passing. If Denver had a better passing game how much better could Floyd have been? So where do we start to convince the Senior Committee?
To answer my own question, I would say start with his stats at the time he retired. Key on the AFL and that he is in the AFL Hall of Fame. Get the Senior Committee to realize that you can’t write the history of the AFL without mentioning Floyd Little. Send the highlight clips of Floyd running during his career. Emphasize that the lack of Denver having winning seasons during most of his career had nothing to do with Little, but the wins did come, and he was integral in those games.
I can actually make a greater argument about Tombstone Jackson and how he changed the game if this was the “end all” criteria, then Rich Jackson should be in. But I support the MHR Committee and whomever they choose to focus on. I will assist however I can.
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 14, 2009 7:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
An arguement could be made
that Floyd Little was the father of the West Coast offense. As you point oput, every team keyed on #44 every play. In an attempt to free Little up we turned to pitches and screens and end-arounds and short passes. Excellent comment Diehard, thanks.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on May 18, 2009 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a side note about Sharpe:
When Floyd Little retired, the media and writers’ all openly said that Little would get in and that he was a sure-fire Hall of Famer. He has been snubbed for 34 years now.
Do not take for granted that Shannon Sharpe WILL get in. They said the same thing about Floyd Little. Sharpe is not a sure fire, if he were, he would have been a first ballot vote. It is important to remember that the HOF selectors have a long history of rejecting former Broncos, for whatever reason.
Which makes it imperative that this Committee continues to fight for our franchises’ legacy.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:35 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
good point
a sub-commitee of the MHRhofC should be set up to parse receiving number per this statement:
Shannon Sharpe will be in the Hall of Fame eventually, probably much sooner rather than later. Right now, all Hall of Fame voters are having trouble struggling to quantify the receiving numbers that are starting to flow in. These numbers are very inflated from previous years and speak more to the trends in the game than individual talents.
The hof voters can’t get to the heart of what these numbers (and their historical weight) mean, so a definitive staement on how the numbers should be viewed needs to be created.
The sub-committee will need to collect and compare recieving data by era, parse out relevant “top performances” in those categories, and make an integrated, philosophical statement about what it all means, and then follow that up with an application as it fits the player up for consideration.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is another element that should be included at some point
and that is to bring Floyd Little’s (and any candidate’s) achievements into the hear and now. I would suggest creation of a professional pamphlet for any candidate, something that transcends “power in numbers” and goes right to the thinking mind of the voters, and fans alike. I’m talking full-color, nice pictures, in-depth information, perhaps with a DVD of highlights, or even a CD of an interview with the player. A nice tidy package that can be mailed to each voter, to concretize in their mind just WHO and WHAT that player represents.
In many of the email responses above you heard things like:
Can you write the history of the game without the man?
I’m looking for somebody who MUST be remembered…say 100 or 200 years from now because of their profound influence on the game.
Put yourself in the position of someone who has only passing familiarity with Floyd Little. What has he accomplished? He seemed ot be a Very Good" player, but how did he affect the game historically? This is the kind of information that needs to be front and center for the voters, and by creating a document you will be able to get it front and center for YOURSELVES. It is downhill from there.
Everyone here at MHR, even those not officially on the committee has something they are great at. That is why MHR is the place it is. Everyone has something, some small thing they can contribute to this project. Can you parse data? Create charts? Edit photos? Get insider info? Have access to a full service copy department in your business? Know how to burn and label DVD’s? Photoshop wizard? Can you direct a short film piece? Can you write a short film piece? Do you have the ideal location for a short film piece? Do you have any ideas that might help? This project will need you. It will need ALL of you.
For my part I will write an introduction for any player (especially Floyd!) who we can get such a pamphlet together for. And I swear to you my intro will have what it takes to break down even the bleakest cynicism, and that the eyes, and more importantly the minds, of every voter will be open to the information that the pamphlet can provide.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great idea...
Sounds expensive though….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if one or two guys tries to create the whole thing.
I have a stack of recordable DVDs under my desk. Consider them donated. If somone else can get free color copies made at work, they should consider donating some time. Anyone have video-editing software? They might be able to edit a DVD based on someone else’s transcript.
This shouldn’t cost a dime.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 14, 2009 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interviews of fans from that era would be valuable as well..
These voters need to know just how important Floyd Little was/is to them. The Franchise, remember?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's already done
To some degree that is…. I gave First Fan a few DVD’s that are highlight clips of Floyd Littles greatest runs each year starting with his first TD against Detroit in 1967. The DVD’s cover 1967-1972. He is editing them to focus on #44 during those six years. So in supporting the requirements of film takes, the MHR “HOF” Committee already has this.
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 16, 2009 2:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they are fantastic!
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on May 18, 2009 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
You are totally right though, we can crowdsource this and get a lot done!
We can discuss this and see what we can do.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great piece...
…glad to see you got some responses and happy to hear a little bit more from the voters about what goes into it. I’m not a voter (and not even a Bronco fan…sorry guys), but I too wondered about Sharpe. Sounds like he’ll hear his name called soon enough though.
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by The Bull Gator on May 14, 2009 11:39 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good campaign - and great to see it is run with respect for the HoF voters
There seems to be a certain perception here that there is a bias against Denver players.
I don’t buy it myself.
That’s not to say that the voters get it right all the time. I think the bigger problems the HoF process suffers from is an obvious bias against offensive linemen & defensive players in general. Skill position guys get the gaudy stats to back them up.
But those guys have a tough time each year. there are a lot of worthy candidates.
Personally if I was a HoF voter rather then ask “how did he impact the game?” I would ask “was this guy the best (or one of the best)at his position for his generation”
So it irritates me for example when Aikman & Moon get in alongside Young, Montana, Elway & Marino. Clearly very good QB’s. But the best of the era? Hardly.
by British Bronco on May 14, 2009 11:53 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You know who is going to get in...
and not deserve it, is Jerome Bettis. He had a great nickname, and hype for miles, but he was never a great player, only a good one.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 14, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude did run for 15,000 yards....but I get your point.
TD was a much more versatile and effective runner, but since his career was cut short he gets snubbed. Longevity certainly plays a role in the HOF process…Bettis, in an era of short-lived RB’s, was a model of consistency. I think he is deserving…not as a first ballot, but surely within 5-10 years of it.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff guys
and noble work. We’re stuck with football writers as voters, which is crap, but we can try to influence them positively. Rec’d
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 14, 2009 11:55 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ted has it right - Rec'd and Buzzed
If you are wondering – the button marked Buzz Up! that is just above the Rec button tallies the ‘buzz’ and give heavily buzzed articles a wider ‘distribution’. That means that more people will get a chance to learn about this article and that more people will be drawn to what the people at MHR have to say.
If you were initially surprised to find MHR and its attitudes towards discourse and depth of analysis, as well as the incredible Mile High community of members, Please – take a moment and Buzz the articles that you Rec. Give other folks a better chance to find and share in our community!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on May 14, 2009 12:38 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks BBear
I will endeavor to Buzz more, to ensure the growth of MHR
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on May 14, 2009 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanky, Kapt'n!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on May 14, 2009 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerome Bettis illustrates the problem
So I am glad you bought him up Ted.
Ok so lets look at recent running backs.
We already have Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders in. OK – no real question.
Emmitt Smith comes up soon and will sail in. Again no real problem with that.
So exactly how many more RB’s deserve to go in? With an average of 5 players going in each year if HoF positions were allocated fairly then there should be no more than 4-5RB’s each decade or so.
Betis probably deserves to go in. But so does Curtis Martin really. And then of course there is Terrell Davis.
So that is 6 RB’s fine – but then which safety, which guard, which linebacker – who deserves the same shot as anyone else – which of those gets snubbed due to the overpopulation of QBs, RBs and WRs in the hall?
I’m going to say somethign here that will not make me popular here but I think TD, Jerome Bettis and Martin should all wait until all these guys get in first:
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1355_Canton_should_call_these_legends.html
And you guys will be pleased to see Atwater’s name on that list of 8!!
by British Bronco on May 14, 2009 12:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Atwater is #4 on my list of snubs.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is also my all-time favorite defensive player.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Atwater
I’m a total Razorbacks homer, but Atwater is one of my top-5 all-time D players, too. Maybe top of the list. The guy meant so much to the team.
by BroncosBassist on May 14, 2009 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is a totally awesome post & discussion
:D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by BShrout on May 14, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Another point about Sharpe:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1888
Good blog about Monk and Sharpe……don’t assume Sharpe is a shoe in. If Sharpe doesn’t get in before Tony G’s first year of eligibility then we are in big trouble…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 1:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Something I worry about as well
Although if Sharpe is still there by TG’s first year, he’ll have been waiting 7-10 years, so we are in trouble anyway.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I strongly believe Terrell Davis belongs, and soon.
I think he passes the rewrite history check.
Without Davis, how does John Elway’s storied career end? Do the Broncos win back to back championships? Is Denver still viewed as a cow-town?
Davis’ career being too short to me is a cop out. It’s not just how long you impact the game, but WHEN you impact the game. Davis played his best when the lights were brightest. Unlike some other “sure fire first ballot HoF’ers (cough LT cough)”, Davis shone in the playoffs, where competition is the strongest. The bigger the stage, the bigger the performance Davis gave.
I don’t think a fluke injury that would have ended most RB’s careers should keep him from the HoF. He still holds quite a few playoff records, and it’s hard to picture the NFL’s history books without him.
by powderaddict on May 14, 2009 2:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Compelling argument, but the problem with Bronco players is that we need to have a complete body of work or its really hard to get in….
I think eventually TD will get in, much like Eric Dickerson waited like 15 years…TD will have to wait also. It’s unfortunate, but that is the sense I get from these voters.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the spirit of what the HoF stands for, IMO Davis is as qualified as anyone else.
Of course with the reality of what the modern day HoF voters look for, you are correct.
by powderaddict on May 14, 2009 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be a damn shame to have a guy like Bettis get in before TD….that’s like preferring a school bus over a slick dodge ram pick up with a hemi. lol Just because the dodge ram blew its engine after 5 years, doesn’t mean you’ll take the school bus because it’ll run for 15 years without many problems….
I digress.
Who would you rather want in the backfield? TD in his prime or Bettis in his prime?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That thing
Has a Hemi?
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on May 14, 2009 8:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I commend your efforts and I am wondering what the split is between
Gradishar and Little, if those are guys that are splitting votes in the senior committee, I also wonder if Sharpe is also taking away votes from Little and Gradishar, I just have a hard time believing the HOF would ever elect two Broncos in one year.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on May 14, 2009 3:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
There was a split in the committee, BUT
when we all looked at the situation, Floyd Little has a bigger presence right now on the internet. Plus, no one can present a case for Floyd Little like firstfan can.
Gradishar is first on my list, but Floyd is right behind him… In the end, they are both deserving, but a choice had to be made on which guy to push first. It would be counterproductive to try and get both in at the same time. The goal is to focus on one guy in each vote…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My 2 cents...
It was close too… It was very nearly Gradishar instead of Little. There was a ton of discussion and Little it was.
Once the MHR community gets Little gets in, Gradishar, I’m sure, will be at or near the top of the list.
J
It's not the Lakers I hate with every bone in my body, it's just the players and their fans.
by Jezru on May 14, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
there is anyone even close to Gradishar or Little as far as veteran committee selections….third on my list would be Lionel Taylor, but he is clearly behind both the other two in importance as far as getting our guys into the Hall.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 14, 2009 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little, Gradishar, Taylor + one more
If we really look deep into waht a Hall Of Famer is, then the three mentioned are fully quallified, but I will add one more to the list: Rich Jackson. Tombstone changed the way football is played. He hurt so many people with the head slap, that the rules were changed to penalize Defensive hands to the face. Jackson was constantly double and even triple teamed, and he used the head slap to the side of the helmet of Lineman to get single coverage many times. The game changed to penalize him and any other Defensive players from hurting OLineman.Rich Jackson had one of the widest wing spans of any DL in the League. He used brute force to knock out Linemen thus increasing his time to get to the QB. This was at a time when the play was legal, but it was Tombstone that forced the League to make a rule change. If this isn’t a case of writing History, then what is?
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 16, 2009 2:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
When you have Al Davis saying he deserves to be in, not that I ever like Davis, but to have your biggest enemy say you were the best, speaks volumes.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on May 16, 2009 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying we aren't the Redskins or Cowboys?
It's not the Lakers I hate with every bone in my body, it's just the players and their fans.
by Jezru on May 14, 2009 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post. The MHR HoF Committee is doing a great job and to me, it sounds
like we could be seeing a few more Broncos Hall of Famers in the near future…HOPEFULLY!!!
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
by broncoholic on May 14, 2009 6:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Yeah, we hope to up that Broncos number from 2 to 4 or 5 at least.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 8:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again just want to say
how proud I am to be associated with you guys!
Has the committee discussed reaching out to the Broncos organization? Joe Ellis, Jim Sac, Pat Bowlen? Not sure they could really help, but they might be able to give us some contacts at NFL Films, NFL Network, etc.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 7:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
No, we haven't
But that’s a great idea! That’s definitely something we should think about doing. What things in particular were you thinking about?
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
NFL Films for access to their library of footage (beyond the online recutter which is, let’s face it, slightly less than non-sucky).
NFL Network for publicity once we’re ready for primetime. Maybe TD could interview the committee members.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 14, 2009 11:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great ideas
NFL Films is awfully tight with their stuff, but if we can get the right people on our side (like the Broncos FO, like you mentioned), we could really get some good support.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We already have the Floyd Little clips from NFL Films
The MHR Comittee has them
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 16, 2009 2:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Hayes
…was a novelty act
"I told him (Montrae), don't worry, you'll pass out before you die" -- Rick Tuten
by littletinybroncos on May 14, 2009 9:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Very well done!
I love the way you guys are going about this – not petty, whiny, or “us vs. them.”
By the criteria stated in the email exerpts above, Shannon Sharpe HAS to be included because he reinvented his position! Tight ends have not been the same since. I don’t believe one could write a comprehensive history of football and leave out the impact Sharpe had on the game.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
by HarvJNep2n on May 14, 2009 9:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
That’s what we were going for, respectful. Some of the voters were rather combative at first, as they almost felt we were attacking their choices, but after we reiterated our intent and kept the tone of our message respectful, those ‘combative’ journalists actually become some of the most helpful out of the entire group.
The voters for some of our division rivals were actually among the most helpful and praising of Shannon, it was refreshing.
by studbucket on May 14, 2009 11:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
More suggestions
Lionel Taylor: All-time leading receiver in AFL history.
Rich “Tombstone” Jackson: Has a great case under the Dwight Stephenson argument.
Dennis Smith/Steve Atwater: In the last 30 years, only one safety (Ronnie Lott) has made the HOF. Ken Houston who last played in 1980 was the last safety before Lott.
by sdbaseballfan on May 15, 2009 12:48 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
My humble opinion
Sharpe doesn’t really need to be helped. He’s a lock to get in (given his multiple records for a TE and his publicity working in front of the cameras currently).
I think all of the attention should go to FLoyd Little. I have a lot of favorites from ages past (Atwater is a fan favorite, Taylor, and of course we see Tombstone appearing in a lot of old highlight films), but leaving Floyd out is so egregious that the HOF is a joke without him (or at least the credentialing committee).
You guys are doing a wonderful thing. You ought to contact Floyd and coordinate with him. For the first time, I feel that there may be a chance.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on May 15, 2009 4:48 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
This quote is very important....
I have a very simple test that I apply on Hall of Fame voting: Can you write the history of the game without the man? If you can’t, then you need to look at him very, very closely.
I believe that this comment needs to be carefully looked at. It in and of itself it makes a very strong arguement for Shannon Sharpe. Shannon forever changed the position of TE from primarily blocking to a diverse offensive weapon. We need to drive home the point that Shannon forever transformed this position into what it is today.
by Broncanatic on May 15, 2009 9:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I tired that argument last year and the rebuttal was that KELLEN WINSLOW
was the pioneer, Sharpe just came afterwards.
I just thought that was a farce. Kellen Winslow was the first, but he only showed it could be done… Shannon Sharpe defined it for the next generation that spawned the Tony G’s, Clarks, Wittens, ect…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 15, 2009 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about???
Ozzie Newsome played during the same years as Winslow, plus a few more. Their stats were similar. I wouldn’t want to rate either over the other. But talk about defining the position, lets not forget about John Mackey, long before Winslow, Newsome and Sharpe.
About playing against Joe Namath "He's the best in the Business, he can do everything, but I've never seen a Quarterback yet that can throw on his back." - Dave Costa 1969
by Denver Diehard on May 16, 2009 3:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work!!!
Keep it up!!
A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
by Broncotodd on May 15, 2009 10:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it is great you guys are doing this
Just one question: How did you pick your first two candidates? While I agree that both are Hall worthy, Randy Gradishar, imo, is the biggest HoF snub of all time.
MHH: Shagging Dater one contributor at a time.
by Bob in Boulder on May 15, 2009 12:58 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I also agree with you,
but Floyd Little has meant more to the franchise of the Denver Broncos than Randy Gradishar. Floyd “The Franchise” Little also has more of a following and is better organized outside of MHR for us to take advantage of.
Such as, http://www.littleinthehalloffame.com/
Floyd Little has been ignored for 35 years….I would like to see him get in before he moves on to the next world.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on May 15, 2009 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great guys! Taking initiative. I love it!
Here’s some data – some of it positive towards Sharpe, some of it little less positive. Anyway it’s definately worth a read – always good to know where the opposition stands. And it’s all statistical magic, so no irrational arguments!
Art Monk = Shannon Sharpe?
Top Ten Tight Ends of All-Time
In terms of source accesment: I follow this blog very closely, and their point of views are always very objective, and 100% centered around working numbers from their “only-matched-by-football-outsiders-database”.
Will there be some sort of MHR HoF database? That would be coo-ool!
Random quotes about the raiders:
They really shouldn’t play — Chris Collinsworth (12/5/08)
This is an utter disaster — Chris Collinsworth (12/5/08)
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!
by Claus Vestergaard on May 15, 2009 9:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
PFR Rocks
Read them all the time, those are good links.
It would be awesome to have some sort of MHR HoF database, at least it sounds cool, what kind of thing are you referring to?
I’ve had this dream of creating a Broncos History Wiki for years (I’ve actually barely started it), but it’s a lot of work.
by studbucket on May 16, 2009 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

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