Character, Intelligence, and Talent
I'd like to address what I believe to be the criteria that Josh McDaniels uses to evaluate players, and to extend that to the kind of team I believe he is trying to create. In order of importance, these criteria are Character, Intelligence, and Talent.
I've been reading MHR for several months and am just now deciding to jump into the discussion. I am not a football expert, I am not a coach, and I was cut from the high school JV team lo those many years ago. But, I love my Broncos and I'm a fan. I fancy myself a student of the game and I'm delighted that so many other fans just like me are here.
I've watched Mickey Dee's actions since he arrived and at first, I was confused. I read everything I could find on him, and a picture emerged. He has been a football man since he was in diapers, played several positions, and has risen meteorically through the coaching ranks. He has had stunning successes and a few failures. But frankly, I did not understand the Cutler situation. I could not understand how McD did not covet a 'franchise' QB with such amazing natural talent. It seemed out of character for a man with such obvious football coaching talents.
Thanks to Hoosier Teacher for opening my eyes. In his brilliant post "A Profoundly Powerful Draft Strategy", HT illuminated the Bronco's draft strategy and suddenly, it all made sense. Shanahan had built his teams by evaluating talent, intelligence, and character, generally in that order. McD has taken the opposite tack and evaluates his players based first on character, then intelligence, and lastly, talent. He does not limit this to draftees, of course, he has applied this to current players and to his coaching staff. I'll define what I mean by each of these terms, but suffice it to say that McD decided that in spite of the undeniable raw talent, Cutler did not have the character or the intelligence or the right kind of talent to make it in the new Denver Broncos. I don't think McD meant to drive Cutler away, but he wasn't sorry to see him go. This post is not about Cutler per se, but that situation does give some insight into my assertion.
Character, I now believe, is the most important attribute needed to play football. Character trumps speed, arm strength, pass rush ability, every single special talent you can name. Football is the ultimate team game and without having the character necessary to fit into a team structure, a player's special talents do not help a football team. I'm going to artificially break this idea of character up into identifiable parts, but I do understand that they are all inter-related and overlapping. These parts are inherent character (humility, maturity,...), team-first mindset, and attitude.
Inherent Character is difficult to define. I refer the reader here to Ted Bartlett's post "On Sanctimony and the Character of Young Men" and the comments resulting from that post for a more complete treatment of this topic. TB has written a truly excellent post regarding the character of young men in general and well summarizes the difficulties of assessing the character of college football players. It focuses on the idea that good character is inherent in all of us, but at a young age, character can be derailed for a time, and sometimes permanently. I'm 53 now. My story parallels TB's. I have made every mistake I could think of, many that blindsided me, and several I made over and over. Drugs, drifting, depression, degradation, and denial characterized me from 14 until I was 34, at which point I turned a corner. However, my character was built before I was 14 and it has since reemerged. Like many in TB's post comments, I have followed the trail laid out in Robert Bly's seminal work "Iron John". Determining whether someone has the character to play in the NFL is an inexact science. Shanny was right about Marcus Thomas, and no one is happier than me about that. (OK, maybe Marcus Thomas is happier). Although everyone has the opportunity to turn that corner, not everyone does.
That aspect of character, the idea that young men do make mistakes and redemption should always be considered, is absolutely true. I think a point TB makes is that at some point, most men with character issues do turn a corner and take a new path. They mature. The question McD must answer is "has this player turned the corner?" That is never an easy assessment to make from the outside and only those that have a natural talent for reading people can do it. However, there are signposts. Some of these are humility, the desire to understand, honesty, tolerance, willingness, maturity, admitting mistakes, and there are many others. In addition, one can see behavior modifications such as changing one's playgrounds, playmates, and playthings. There is a huge risk involved when trying to evaluate whether a player has truly turned the corner or just playing the part. The smart money doesn't take those risks in the first round. McD signed Chris Baker. I agree with many posters that Baker is one of those players that has the character traits that make a good football player, but he made some mistakes that young men sometimes do. McD must think so, too, and time will tell. As an UFA out of college, it might be worth it. I see a lot of myself in Baker (I could actually fit inside of Baker, but that is yet another tangent). I am pulling for him. If you are a praying man, please add him to the list.
Another aspect of character is that of the willingness to put the team's goals ahead of one's own. This is a key attribute that McD has focused on, and I reference the reader to the signing of Dawkins and the high percentage of team captains in the draft class. Another way to assess this is to look at what a player has been willing to do: special teams, play different positions, block on those plays that don't require a skill player to handle the ball, and so on. When Moss was with the Raiders, I could tell with one step after the snap whether it was a run or a pass. He simply refused to participate in plays that did not feature him. All of the talent in the world in useless if the player will not become a participating member of the team. Any player that would refuse to work out with his teamates because he was mad at the coach cannot, in my view, be considered a team player. Anger and differences of opinion have to be set aside for the good of the team, and that is another sign of maturity. This aspect of character is key in the locker room.
Yet another component of character that is key in the locker room is attitude. I define this as a combination of determination, persistence, comraderie, and positiveness. In my view, the poster child for this is Peyton Hillis (he could be the poster child for a lot of the character points!) Last year, I saw players giving up at the end of games. I saw negativity contaminate even the positive players as seen in the interviews after the games. I saw players calling out other players in public. (Note that I draw a distinction between calling a player out and confronting a player to step up. The former is done with an attitude of hostility, and the latter is done with an attitude of comraderie). Attitude, to some extent, can be coached, but unless a player brings a proper attitude, coaching's ability to change that is limited. Recently, I have heard several players (Dumervil, Orton, Champ, Hillis, others) comment on the undercurrent of excitement in the locker room and comment on their desire to do whatever is necessary to help the team. The change in culture is visible.
The next trait on the table is intelligence. I refer to football intelligence and is only slightly related to IQ. (For addicts, the Combine drug test is a way to weed them out. For casual users, it is an IQ test.) Intelligence overlaps with character when considering coachability and intersects with talent when discussing instincts. To play at a high level in the NFL, a player must be a student of the game. A true student never stops learning. The greatest component of intelligence is the ability and desire to learn. McD is a proponent of situational football, which for this discussion a way of preparing for a game. This requires extensive preparation regarding recurring situations in a football game so that the response of the player in any given situation becomes second nature. McD also is known to prepare for every team differently. This requires the intelligence to learn new situations (formations, tendencies, reactions, reads, ...) each and every week. Also, McD has said he has some new wrinkles to unwrap. I'm hoping that with the drafting of Moreno and Quinn and the signing of Orton, that we are going to see the emergence of the 3 TE set. Check out MHR Football University for an excellent article describing the intracacies of this offensive play set that is yet to be applied effectively and routinely in the NFL.
Intelligence must also be applied. For example, it does no good to create and run a pass play that has different receiver options as the play develops if the QB is fixated on his preferred receiver. Applied intelligence, when it is tempered with experience, allows a QB to use the checkdowns imbedded in the play to find the best outcome for that play, be it the open man, a scramble, a dump, or throwing the ball away. Applied intelligence, when the knowledge has become second nature, is called instinct. Last year, many of our defenders were out of position. At the speed of the NFL, it is simply a lack of knowledge of where to go, in the split second a player has to make that decision, that resulted in players out of position. In that scheme, the players lacked the instinct to make the intelligent choice. This was especially problematic in our interior LB and safety play. In some cases, it is the coaching and in others, it is the player. In our case, it was both.
Finally, we come to talent. Special talent is the least important of the traits for a good football player. I hear that "you can't coach speed". This is true, but speed is useless if you are running in the wrong direction. Given the choice between a player with nothing but 4.3 speed and a player with 4.6 speed as well as a team attitude, high character, coachability, and a hunger for football intelligence, and I think the choice is clear. (As a tangent, note that 4.3 speed would be found in the first round for millions, and 4.6 speed is found in the lower rounds for cheap - a superb use of money). Physical talents are measured at the combine in a dozen ways, and thrown in is a 15 minute interview. For determining suitability for the pressures of the NFL as defined in my assertions for character and intelligence, this is lunacy. McD saw this and brought in all of his draftees under consideration in for a visit. Those visits are to assess the intangibles that I am discussing here. I am making the case here that it is exactly these intangibles that make or break a player, and by extension, the team, and not whether they have 4.3 or 4.6 speed. (For a more in depth analysis of how talent should be spread throughout a team, read "Moneyball" by Michael Lewis).
The talent that McD is focused on is the talent of versatility. This is a true strength. If, for example, you have a QB that can only throw fire, in those situations that require a dump off, the team as a whole is less talented because the required talent - the ability to dump off - is missing. For those few situations where throwing fire is applicable, you are in roses, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. One dimensional players are a detriment to a football team. There is an old joke about specialization that fits here. As you get educated, you know more and more about less until you know everything about nothing. Football is a game of exploitation of weaknesses, and those weaknesses vary by opponent, by time of year, by injuries, by dozens of things. To exploit the variety of weaknesses on a week to week basis requires a variety of strengths. It hardly ever requires one player to be the absolute best at a given task. It requires every single player to be above average at all the tasks (especially fundamentals, like tackling). Secondly, when a team is heavily dependent on the talent of one player, the team can suffer unrecoverably should that player become injured. Spreading the resources of the team (money and choice of talent) across the whole team is a much more useful strategy that putting all of the team's resources into just a few players. Also, the ability to rotate players in and out of a game is crucial to maintain fresh legs and lungs. As the year progresses, those teams that have many players sharing the load are better able to complete because they tend to limit injuries and tend to minimize the exhaustion faced at the end of a season.
Even though McD has a focus on versatility, there is indeed true football talent to be had. For the in depth look at what each draft player brings to the table, in addition to character, intelligence, and versatility, I refer you again to HT's post "A Profoundly Powerful Draft Strategy". Somehow, Mickey Dee was still able to draft players that were also the best at their position.
The most exciting thing to me about this observation of character, intelligence, and talent is the kind of team that results from this realignment of priorities. A team built on character will not quit, will not fold under pressure, and each player will do whatever it takes to achieve the team goal: the win. A team built on intelligence will play smart football, minimize mistakes and turnovers, and be so prepared each week that they will react correctly to each situation the players find themselves in as if it were second nature. A team built on versatile talent will not suffer when key players are injured, will be able to use a variety of strategies against a variety of styles week in and week out, and will be able to stay fresh through the season because of the sharing of the playing load. A team like this may not lead the league in any category whatsoever, but they will win week in and week out. If you maintain young players and stick to this strategy regardless of the criticism, you can do it year in and year out. I don't know if this strategy will result in a winning season this year, but I think we have turned a corner.
Dawkins, A. Davis, Moreno, Ayers, Quinn, A. Smith, Rulon Davis, every single signing is of high character players, intelligent players, and versatile players. The knock on each and every one of them is that they are lacking in some special talent. Dawkins has lost a step. A. Smith is undersized. Ayers is weak as shown by his bench press numbers. OK, Moreno has it all but he's the exception that proves the rule (OK, I think he goes down too easily on first contact, but I'm not the football expert that Jamie Dukes is ;>} ). The MSM has given us a very poor grade on our draft because most of the football world is focused on special talent. McD's genius is that he recognizes that special talent is not what makes a football player great. It is character, intelligence, and versatility.
This diatribe only scratches the surface of first addressing character, then intelligence and lastly talent when evaluating players, but I believe that this is the vision that was presented to Pat Bolen. Mickey Dee has remained true to this vision not only with the players he has retained and the players he has traded for, but he has done this in our draft.
That, my friends, is how to build a dynasty. With a vision like this, it is not only possible, I think it is inevitable.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Man, what an awesome first post!
Rec’d.
You have hit the nail on the head!
ANYONE that makes it to the combine, or even into college ball, is a talented player. Where that talent is taken has a lot to do with:
1/ Situation: Did they go to a college system that fit their talents.
2/ Coaching: Was the coach and his style of caoching a fit for the palyer.
3/ Character: Did that guy work his hardest to get the most from his talent.
I am a coach. It is a RARE athlete indeed that finds these “environments for success” as I like to call them, and it is up to the partnership between athlete, coach and family to get it right.
Pete Carroll gets this! He looks for FITS in exactly the same way that Jedi McD does at the NFL level.
The ‘experts’ always say that USC guys dont succeed because they are SYSTEM guys. I would hazard to guess that they are guys that go to ‘environments’ that are less successful and NOT fits for them…..I am seeing this with some of my own athletes that “progress” on.
Interesting how the most successful college and NFL team jas a SYSTEM!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
by boydy2669 on May 2, 2009 6:02 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
It makes you wonder
how many great players their are that don’t make it to the NFL because they were in the wrong college system. I’m sure some end up as CFA’s. With McD using his method to pick up those CFA’s I get even more excited.
ANOTHER GREAT POST, don’t you just love MHR.
Thanks, Boydy.
One of my previous careers was a quality systems analyst. Every good company nowadays operates on a system and its time the Broncos do as well. You are correct in that for a system to put out a good product, the raw materials have to be right for the system. To put Terrell Owens in a run first system like Chicago would rip the team apart. It will be interesting to watch to see if adding Cutler to that system results in a passing offense or whether it ends up misusing Cutler’s talents.
I second this
this is terrific. Good insight, wonderfully written.
My Dad told me about the 4 seasons:
Pre-season
Regular-season
Post-season
Off-season
by KaptainKirk on May 3, 2009 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great Post!
Like many I was surprised and disappointed with the loss of Mike Shanahan. I still believe him to be a hall of fame coach, but his fatal flaw was the tendency to overlook character when selecting in the draft and occasionally when rewarding players with starting opportunities.
Shanahan had built his teams by evaluating talent, intelligence, and character, generally in that order. McD has taken the opposite tack and evaluates his players based first on character, then intelligence, and lastly, talent.
This statement clarifies to me why I feel optimistic about our new coach and our new team. The alternate strategy to me is exemplified in the Raiders and the reason that although they pick the most talented players at what seems to be the top 5 perennially, they never reach the point where those players comprise a competitive team.
Additionally, the loss of Cutler is another issue that at first I was troubled with, but when examined through the lens of this new strategy, makes me excited for not only the success that this team will achieve, but the manner by which they will achieve it. The strategy of winning at all cost with players bankrupt of any redeemable character qualities is what drove me away from watching some of my favorite pro basketball teams. For a while I was worried that it might happen with my beloved Broncos as well. I have never had more pride for my team than currently, while realizing that what you are saying in this great article seems to ring true. Thanks for the great post.
Rec’d and reread and reread.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena" Theodore Roosevelt
by broncosaurus on May 2, 2009 6:55 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, Broncosaurus.
If I were any more optimistic I’d have to be two people!
I so agree that the Raiders are the anti-Broncos (on so many levels). They continually make wrong draft choices by focusing on a single attribute. When Russell held out in training camp for more money, it clinched for me that he was not NFL material. QBs must excel at judgement, and holding out for more money when you have never played an NFL game reeks to me of poor judgement, not to mention the character issues of greed and me-first-ism.
Great Post
well Rec’d
"when they find the center of the universe, i know quite a few people that are going to be upset it isn't them" dmitchell624
by dmitchell624 on May 3, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great read. Thanks
And Rec’d.
Loved this quote!
Intelligence overlaps with character when considering coachability and intersects with talent when discussing instincts.
Also loved your references to other great posts here, MoneyBall, and Iron John. That last one was very influential in my life as well.
Good work!
Thanks, NedBronco.
I can’t tell you how gratifying it is to have found a site where fans love the game of football, the Broncos, and still know who Iron John is!
There are alot of players with 'raw' talent,
but they lack the character that separates them from the ‘great’ players. One example of that is Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens. Jerry Rice will go down as one of the greatest wide receivers of all time, and on the other hand, Terrell Owens will always be known as a ‘character’ issue. Owens like Rice has the physical ability, the raw talent to be one of the best ever, but his own character has diminished any possibility of being called ‘great’, at least in my opinion.
I wouldn’t characterize jay cutler as being dumb, on the contrary he is a smart person. His attitude and actions are considered by many to be childish, thus the bad character placard. There may come a time when jay amends his character, I for one hope so. Mcdaniels saw the character flaw right away and instead of feeding to its ego, eliminated it. Sure there were alot of fans upset about the whole issue that transpired, but ultimately the team will be better for it. Great read, Great Post. 13-3 Baby!!!
by bfree2bronc on May 2, 2009 8:40 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, Bfree2bronc.
We so agree. Owens is, in my view, one of the most tragic figures in football today. He so wants to be great, and he so wants to win, but everything he does works against that end. And he doesn’t get why that happens “to” him over and over.
Cutler is indeed a smart man, but watch him on the sidelines at a game. More often than not, he is sitting by himself on a bench. Compare that with Peyton Manning, who looks like he is running a press conference with the offense on the sidelines. Peyton is clearly trying to apply new information to the gameplan. Cutler didn’t do that under his own power – someone else, like Bates, had to initate that conversation. I found it telling. Let’s see what he does in Chicago. I love psychology (someday I hope to understand what I’m thinking) and there are clues to what is going on inside a person by watching what they do. An example is the tells card players use to deduce what another player is holding. If Cutler continues to passively sit on the bench between possessions, we can deduce he still believes that his arm is more important than his team.
That is an interesting
point. Initiating the discussion on the sidelines. I will have to look for that this year.
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
Tis better no to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
I believe the side line this year will take on a whole new face.
The way the coach teaches and instructs the players, I am sure we are going to see cheer leading like we haven’t seen for a long, long time. 13-3 Baby!!!
The sideline demeanor
was discussed more than once over the last two years. Passion for the game cannot be understated. This is a great post Yosemite Sam and I thank you. I don’t pass out rec’s bu tthis sure deserves one!
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
bfree would you find it strange...
that I have heard interviews from 4-5 ex-9er players and each one of them said that Rice was a horrible teammate and that TO was one of their favorite? From what they have said is that TO gets his bad rap from saying what most people will not, but should. Not to say that I would ever want the guy here, but it was definately an eyebrow raiser.
BtD
If you think I hate you, you may have a point.
Nice!!!!
I really liked,
“even a stopped clock is right twice a day”
Good points
by lovewatchinthegame on May 2, 2009 9:09 AM MDT reply actions
Thanks, Lovewatchinthegame.
I also considered writing “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail”!
Great post...
McD decided that in spite of the undeniable raw talent, Cutler did not have the character or the intelligence or the right kind of talent to make it in the new Denver Broncos. I don’t think McD meant to drive Cutler away, but he wasn’t sorry to see him go.
I think this is right on the money. After watching the interview with Brandstater yesterday (I like this kid, btw, and will be pulling for him to emerge as a solid NFL QB), it really hit home what McD is looking for in his players. I think he put Cutler’s ego/character to the test in the way he dealt with him from the beginning, and Cutler failed. I really like Jay, and would still be pulling for him hard if we were suiting up in our orange and blue instead of da Bears’, but I won’t be shocked if he never turns into an elite QB. And I’m not sure that he would ever have bought into McD’s system. I suspect that somewhere inside him is a sense that he’s bigger than the team….
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
Thanks, Broncs Cheer.
I only live a few hours from Fresno State – I’m near Yosemite. (I’m six feet tall and I don’t shoot rabbits or other varmints).
In hindsight, watching Mickey Dee deal with Cutler was a classic case of hatchet man dealing with the most difficult employee. Of course, no one, including me, thought that Cutler was the most difficult player. But, I think Cutler took that role on his own. McD (and Bowlen) stuck to their guns. You’ve made an excellent point.
I'm with ya Broncs Cheer
but i think Jay would have made it here. He just listened to his agent too much. Cook wanted to renegotiate to get himself a new fat paycheck. Can anybody tell me if Cook is representing any of our draftees or UFA’s?
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
can we make no-cook a condition of the draft?
we’ll draft you, but only if you don’t sign with bus cook
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 3, 2009 12:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Epic Post man! awesome!!
McD has taken the opposite tack and evaluates his players based first on character, then intelligence, and lastly, talent.
I’m not sure I agree with this statement though. McD went out and got the most talented guys at each position he selected. “The best” at something right?
Shanny was more about drafting players according to “need, talent, intelligence, and character”. McD, I think, goes this way, “intelligence, talent, character, need”.
This is probably close to what you were meaning, just left out the “need” aspect of it. Shanny missed on some huge draft picks over the years because he always went with “need” first. McD will probably hit more often because he will draft based on “talent and intelligence” first. Much safer I think. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
Thanks, Zappa.
You’re right. Need has to play a role in the decision making process. The discussion between need versus Best Player Available can be a discussion in its own right. I don’t think we had a LT on our board as Clady fills the bill nicely. Boydy also points out that the system the player comes from and the system the player is going to also plays a part. We could also add “Fit” to the analysis.
I wouldn’t limit the primacy of need to Shanahan. The MSM howls about it endlessly; not drafting for our perceived holes is why they give us a bad draft grade and not because they were bad players. But, there is current need, which is transient, and future need, which is chronic (everyone eventually retires). When discussing need in light of creating a dynasty, I think future need trumps current need. In fact, it leaves us close to a position of BPA. Over time, repeatedly selecting the BPA results in an upgrade throughout the whole team. But within the constraints of character, intelligence, and talent, and given the choice between roughly equally evaluated players at safety or LT, I take the safety. You make a valid point.
BTW, I’ve been reading your posts for months. Thanks for everything you give back to this site. I’m certain I speak for many when I express my appreciation.
by YosemiteSam on May 2, 2009 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks!
It’s just good to have a place to meet and chit chat with other Bronco fans. It’s not easy living in nor cal. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
not any easier living in So Cal either
LOL
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
things are pretty evenly divided between
charger & faders countries down here
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
SoCal too
I ran into a big Charger fan while looking at football books at the local Borders. We actually hit it off, and he confided to me that he thinks that Chargers fans are obnoxious at times because they’ve never won the big one and so they feel threatened. He even likes Denver fans, and considered Steeler fans to be the height of courtesy. Nice fellow – you can meet good ones anywhere!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
that's the spirit!!!!!
what ever happened to it?
"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam
by lovewatchinthegame on May 3, 2009 11:11 PM MDT up reply actions
That's one thing that MHR seems to really keep alive
Unless the game is on, civil discourse is a treasure among peoples
Hillis/Moreno in '09
One of my best athletes and best role models is a Chargers fan.....just shows ya!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
+1
I love SoCal but all the Raider and SD Fans kill me. My Girls sister and her fiance are both SD fans but the only person on the team they can name is LT and Sproles. It drives me crazy when they try to argue football with me. It is really hard to find an intelligent Raider or Charger fan that you can have a good conversation about football with
by gnarlybroncodude on May 3, 2009 12:27 AM MDT up reply actions
intelligent Raider or Charger fan?
lol Oxymoronsville…
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 3, 2009 6:58 AM MDT up reply actions
oh my
such a gorgeous place; i’m jealous now ;-p
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
But I used to live
In San Diego North County. I’ve spent too much time in both Dolt and Fader Country.
Well done and rec'd YS !!
I’ve always believed that as athletes progress to each level ( hs to college to pro) the talent gap get smaller and smaller until eventuially it’s marginal. You make excellent points in emphasizing the characxter and intelligence aspects which in my opinion grow from level to level. By the way all of your points could easily apply to running a successful business or any organization for that matter. Thanks for your insight!
As in football so in life
Thanks, asinsoin.
I agree. The difference between the first and seventh round speed is 0.3 seconds in the forty – a half step. That’s the difference between 50 million dollars and 50 thousand. And yet, in the NFL, straight line speed is rarely the true measure of a WR success. CBs are a half step behind you and between the WR and the QB and the safety is (or should be) over the top. Separation, timing, route running and hands are much more important. What really differentiates players at this level are the intangibles. It seems that players with amazing natural ability rely on that ability, and it serves them well in HS and college. At the NFL level, everyone has amazing ability. But, those in the lower rounds with slightly less ability have usually also relied on those character and intelligence assets: they’ve had to work harder to get where they are. Sure, there are exceptions like Moreno that have it all. Sure, draft that guy. But I tend to agree with Belichek’s method: the first round is over rated. Trade down and get more picks. The second round is a great bargain round.
With that kind of vision, McD will need very strong glasses.
I love the thought provoking and immense work you put into your post. Very passionate and very interesting. But, I solemnly disagree with the overall evaluation of your post and McD’s philosophy.
If the criteria’s are, in order if importance, Character, Intelligence, and Talent, then there are a bonanza of players you’re looking for at the Ivy League Conference. Loads of great character players, and loads of intelligent players with decent talent.
I would rather have all the talents of the Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall then a good character and intelligent guy. Imagine if the Broncos had all the Cutlers, Marshalls, Adrian Petersons, Julius Peppers, Albert Haynesworths, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, and many other talented but not character nor intelligent guys. We would win the superbowl for 10+ years straight.
The NFL is a showcase of the most talented players in the world, NOT a showcase of great characters nor intelligents.
You may be missing the point Veing
It requires all 3 with the emphasis on Character and talent. BTW with the possible exception of Cutler and Haynesworth all of the players you mention possess a very high football IQ and are recognized as leaders on their teams. Maybe Marshall fits too but time will tell.
Consider this
If the NFL was merely just a showcase of the most talented players in the world how is it that players like Joe Montana ever became successful. Marginal arm and slow footspeed but his ability to read defenses (intelligence) and lead his team (character) seperated him from many far more talented players.ie.. Ryan Leaf had far more talent than Peyton Manning right??
You're right, I may be missing the point.
The players I named are character issue players either now or coming out of college. Additionally, they are the most talented players in the NFL, not because they have good character, but a great football talent.
I agree with you on football IQ and leaders (not part of the criteria). Nonetheless, I would rather have all the talent players first, then all the character players.
need for talent is undeniable
But when I hear people saying they want talent first and character second, I tend to immediately be drawn to Shanahan’s Maurice Clarrett experiment. Mike seemed to fall into a pattern of giving chances to guys who had struggled with the character issue. I believe it was because Mike believed that he had the ability to turn these guys around. Unfortunately, ones like Clarrett refused to follow where Mike was leading them. That ultimately impacted not only the player, but the team, and Mike’s ability to be successful.
From what I’ve read so far, Coach McD appears to be an avid student of the game. He appears to have studied why teams succeed and why they fail, and drawn the conclusion that while talent is good, character is better, because a player with good character (as defined above) is very coachable, and thus able to develop his talent.
All readers please note: this is MHO, my interpretation of what I’ve been reading, and is not an analysis of data. :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
The team you are describing in the
Dallas Cowboys. They have a ton of talent but they do not have any player with character or any of the traits mentioned in this fanpost. This is the reason the cowboys either miss the playoffs or get bounced out of the playoffs in the first round. Jerry Jones likes players with Talent first and character second and look where that has got his Cowboys
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Asinsion
Vieng always misses the point. I do not think I have seen him once ever agree with any persons fanpost since he joined this site. I think he joined to just disagree with everyone
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
It's McD doing!!!
Maybe it’s because of all the love you guys give McD and NOT see the big overall picture. I’m trying to see the big picture here, and we are on a slippery slope to a 5+ straight years of losing seasons.
Don’t you know you always question your leaders and that in itself makes the leader and yourself better for it in the long run?
But, you may be right, again, I may be a dummy.
How are we on a streak of 5+ straight
losing seasons. We have been 24-24 in the past couple years under Shanahan but he is gone. You are giving no credit to Josh McDaniels who eats, breaths and loves football. The only thing he has ever known is football growing up a coaches son. You are not giving our new coach any credit. Yes you can question your leaders but you also have to have some faith in them
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Instead of football
I look at it this way when it comes to leadership. I love the democratic and freedom way of living in the US, but I don’t have to agree with some of the decisions that are made by our leaders. We should always question our leaders.
The exact same thing with football. I love my Broncos, but I don’t have to agree with some of the decisions that are made by our leaders.
Losing seasons as in future tense NOT past tense.
I agree that you should question your
leaders because they are not always right. However bashing them non stop does not do anything but tear down someone or something. Yes you are a Bronco fan but it is sad that you have no confidence in the new staff and the players on the team.
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Bingo!!!
Wrong on the aspect of no confidence on the players, but BINGO on the no confidence in the new staff.
J. Cutler decision – Disagree, he was a franchise QB and in the NE system he would of been a monster.
K. Moreno draft – He is going to be the best RB in the league, but we needed help on defense first.
A. Smith trade – Diagree, we could of used our own 2nd round and a 4th round.
Trading next years pick – The best draft class in decades and think of trading down about three times (ala NE this year) and pick up more draft picks.
And several other questionable decsions. That’s why I have no confidence in the new staff. Nonetheless, I hope the Broncos win the Superbowl for the next 10 years straight with McD.
Again this is your opinion
and it is different than most people on this site.
1. Jay Cutler checked out the minute Shanahan and Bates were Fired and has extremely thin skin. who cares if Mcdaniels listened to trade offers. Big deal. Cutler should have known by his 3rd year that the NFL is a business. Also Jay not returning Pats calls was disrespectful and ignorant. You do not ignore and disrespect the person that writes your checks. Yea you might think he was a “Franchise QB” but he really has not proven anything yet in the NFL. The guy is 17-20 as a starter. I don’t really want to compare him to Elway but Elway carried much worse teams on his back to winning records. Jay could not put the team on his back because he always made bad decisions with the football and was not a good leader of men.
2. Moreno will be a stud but best RB in the league is a reach because AP is the best in the league. Yes we needed defense 1st but Moreno was the BPA so they took him. There was not a defensive player available at 12 that would have been a better pick. You also do not know what Nolan and Mcdaniels think of the players we have on defense know. We have some very talented players that have had 3 horrible DC in 3 years. The broncos have had bad DC that were not very good teachers and never gave the Defense and Identity. This will be fixed with Nolan who is a very good teacher and always gets the best out of his players.
3. Yea we gave up our 1st next year for Alphonso Smith. Maybe Seattle would only take a 1st rounder next year and not a 2d and 4th round. You do not know how the phone call went down. If Smith was rated as their top corner and at the top of their board overall it then they can justify the move. You are one of the people that are underestimating Smith as a player and someone that looks at height weight and speed when it comes to players.
4. How do you know if next years class is the best in decades. Because the MSM says so? I have heard people in the MSM say it will be better then this years class but not the best in decades. Also since when does the MSM know what they are talking about.
The new staff may have some questionable decisions in your opinion but your thought to back up your opinion are not very good
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I, for one, are very glad that you are not the Coach of my beloved Broncos, v!!!
Let me ask, are you saying that another 5-6 years of Shannys ways would have made you happier? That seems to resonate from all the comments you’ve made, maybe I’m wrong, but it sure seems like that’s what you’ve been saying? Personally, &, IMHO, I’ve been very sick of the ways in which this team has splintered, played without heart, often played "without a clue, coddled players,(Cutler), got rid of ANY Coaches, (it often looked to me like Shanny would say he took all the blame for the lack of quality play, & then fired any coaching continuity?), gave up in games, etc…………..!!!! While I don’t/haven’t agreed with every decision they’ve made, I sure do LIKE the direction we’re heading now!!!! Call me a homer or whatever, but I’m looking forward to players that are prepared for each game, that play with heart again & don’t celebrate how “great” they are on meaningless plays, etc………!!! YS, I have absolutely loved your take on this subject, & I Thank You Sincerely!!!! Very highly Rec’d, & GO BRONCOS!!!
I was okay with the Firing
I was okay with the firing of Shanahan, but I would of rathered Bowlen hire Rex Ryan or Steve Spagnuolo. We needed help on the defense and a few tweaks on the offense would of been good for me.
Nonetheless, yes I think Shanahan would of been good in the next year or two. His drafts was starting to pay off and he would of gone after talented FA players, like he always does to help on defense.
Thanks, v, I've been trying to "get" where you're coming from?
I loved having Shanny as our “resident, genious Coach”, it just bothered me like CRAZY to get blown out so often & then he’d do the same things, (fire coaches, etc.), every offseason! We’d HOPE things would turn around, but we saw the same things recently, NO heart, Players giving up in games, players not working as a unit or team, out of position, etc., (you can think of a bunch of stuff I didn’t say, i’m sure), and it was getting (@ times), almost embarassing to go to the bar to watch the games like KC, oak, NE, det?…wth???, knowing we had the Best Coach in the league!?! I was shocked…, for about 60 seconds, or so,when he got fired, then I applauded Pat B (THE BEST owner), for his willingness to not put up with mediocracy any more!!! Imho, we are going to REALLY like the product on the field this year!!! At least this will be a prepared TEAM, & I’ll be happy with that for this year. Anyway , I only type with 1 finger, so this was long winded for me,God Bless ya for being a Broncos fan & keep on commeting, cuz it helps us all maintain perspective! Thanks & GO BRONCOS!!!
Your comments reflect Shanahan's only real fault
He had a tendency to apply the same solutions to the same problems and believe he would get different results.
Other than that, he was brilliant
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 3, 2009 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Isn't that
the definition of insanity??? ; )
or maybe in his case it was just senility? lol
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 4, 2009 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
lol
from what i’ve heard genius and insanity are often hard to distinguish from one another. :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
I'm very cool with wanting to build up the D
I thought that McD scored big when he got Nolan on board. Mike Nolan seemed to me to be just the kind of experience and skill that we need. After all – all head coaches prefer one side of the ball or another in their deepest heart. While I’ve no illusions that Josh’s highest heart and skill lies with the offense, combing his overall vision and Nolan’s abilities (as well as (Martindale and Nunnely, who I thought were stellar pickups) looks very good to me. I think that we’re in very good shape on the coaching side.
I have to admit, I never thought that Shanahan was much of a drafter. I loved him as a coach, but never was thrilled with his drafting or FA practices. I think that the rise of the Goodmans (whom I think that we might miss) was the real reason that the drafting improved. That said, overall I can’t fault anything that Denver did in the offseason, including the draft. The UDFAs also reflect a very good standard
Hillis/Moreno in '09
You say you don't agree with decisions....
but I haven’t seen you say what you disagree with, why you disagree with it, and what the superior option was. Almost all the criticism I’ve read on MHR from you and others boils down to “my crystal ball is better than yours.”
I do know a few things about football. I also know that I don’t even begin to have one tenth the knowledge that McD, X or the others have. I also know, that I don’t know and probably never will know, what actually transpired. I do know, with equal certainty, that the media that keeps criticizing the FO doesn’t know any more than I do.
I don’t know if they have made all the right decisions, probably not. Few people are perfect. I do know that even right decisions can turn out wrong and wrong decisions can turn out okay. All we can do as fans is watch what is going on and try to discern the direction of the team.
Anyone who says with certainty that the Broncos will be worse next year is full of something (as is anyone who claims the contrary).
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 2, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're not a dummy
You’re a person who loves the Broncos as deeply as anyone else, and wants exactly what we all want: winning seasons more often than not, playoff appearances more often than not, more Super Bowl wins than losses.
Just as there is a need for questioning, there is also a need for faith. Questioning can help people become better. It can also tear down when it is presented as a vote of no confidence. Faith can build up, it can also blind when it never questions. Both are vital for success.
Much of the optomists’ reactions to questioning that you’re seeing, IMHO, is based on the fact that it is not presented as questioning, but as bashing. I would argue that questioning and bashing are two different things, just as I would argue that trusting McD and blind faith are two different things.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Sensible
BShrout, you may be the most sensible person on the sight so far. You and I have our differences, but we know where our hearts go every Sunday.
I’ve always enjoyed your post even though I disagree with some of them. It’s like friendly banter among guys in front of the large TV in the living room.
Keep up the good post and comments. I like it.
Excellent Point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bottom line is if your Bronco Fan you are rooting for them to play well together and hopefully win cuz winning is funner than loosing. You do see the Blind faith guys on this site as well as the bashers although the latter don’t seem to stick around long.
I subscribe neither to the glass half full or the glass half empty. I see it as the fluid in the glass is at the mid-point, meaning I don’t try to artificially inflate my opinion of the coaching staff and players and I don’t see any benefit in trashing the staff or players before they have even played one down in a game much less a whole season.
While I find it fun to take a stab at mock draft ideas and guessing what the season will turn out like it is much akin to playing the lottery. It’s fun if you nail the right number. Either way it isn’t fair nor right for anyone to mock or berate another Bronco fan on the way they reason on or arrive at their reason for why they will root for the Broncos. Or for that matter their opinion on how things are going to turn out, at this point it is all hypothetical until the games are in the book it is silly to get too heated up about your opinion or that of another.
Anyway I really liked your reply above!!!!
by lovewatchinthegame on May 2, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions
once again great insight
I do appreciate your comments. As I do vieng’s. When all is said and done, we all want the same thing: The Broncos in the Super Bowl. :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
Wouldn't that be a Kick...
I can imagine the SB party at my house right now!!!! I know it’s not realistic but still fun to believe in the possibility!!!!
by lovewatchinthegame on May 2, 2009 11:12 PM MDT up reply actions
like the little foster kid in Angels in the Outfield kept saying
“It could happen” ;-p
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 11:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Salary Cap my friend
Under the salary cap, the NFL won’t let us to have all those guys. McD’s approach gives us the best chance to develop a new generation of players who will be effective in the same way as the Petersons, Peppers, et al.
And given the fact that McD is coming out of a system (NE) that has had double digit wins in 7 out of the last 8 seasons, been in the playoffs 6 out of the last 8 seasons, been in the Super Bowl 4 times and won 3 of them, all without a lengthy list of superstars, isn’t it possible that McD actually does know what he’s doing, and what’s he doing will lead us to the same kind of success that New England has had?
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
We're not talking about salary cap.
I understand salary cap, but that’s not what we’re discussing.
I love to see the NE success in Denver. I’m on the boat for that. But, NE has had many great talented players first before character players.
I guess this is an egg / chicken debate.
:) I think that's the best description yet
The salary cap was just a sad attempt at humor.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Too Give Perspective
Imagine having a team full of…
Owens, Ocho Cinco, Plaxico, Pac-man, Kellen Winslow/Jeremy Shockey… I could go on.
You could have a team of great talent, and a ton of receivers oddly enough, and I wouldn’t pick you to make it out of the playoffs.
Don’t you think it wasn’t a little surprising how good the Giants became when Tiki retired and Shockey got injured?
Don't jump off the cliff but if the guys next to you are loud and annoying try to push them off.
Tis better no to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Can you imagine
Maybe we could petition the NFL to set them up as a single team to settle the debate.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 2, 2009 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions
I am Sure the MSM
would love it. The sports writers would probably pick them as Super Bowl champs with all that talent. Kinda like how they are always saying, I would want TO on my team.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Thank you, Vieng111.
I welcome your input. I have no problem with someone putting a theory to the test. That is the only way to find out if it worth pursuing. I have had several careers in my life, one being a research chemist. I would put forth a hypothesis, and then it was the job of my team to prove me wrong. Many times, I was wrong. And I did the same for them. Your original response here appears to be done in the spirit of debate, and I thank you for it.
Regarding your reponse, I have to admit that it is easy to point to low character men that have done well. That was not my point. I was also a quality systems analyst (in the chemical field, developing systems for chemical production) and my post is dealing with systems, not outcomes. For any given player, you can beat the odds, but that is not how to bet. I am trying to highlight the difference that Mickey Dee is bringing to the Broncos. This is a philisophical difference. I’m arguing that this system, over time, will result in a better football team. I am indeed arguing, by the implied converse, that picking players primarily by talent at the expense of character and intelligence will, over time, result in a worse football team.
We can cherry pick the results we want to prove a point. We can cherry pick those players that have character issues and still are great players. But I believe those players are the exception rather than the rule. Other posters have mentioned the possible results of getting players only by talent – the Cowboys and Raiders. On paper in 2008, especially with the Cowboys, they should just dominate. But, they didn’t.
I think that is because football is not a game of individual effort by 11 players on the same field; it is the effort of 1 team. Of course we want physically talented players. But because football is a team game, and because football is a cerebral game, I believe the intangibles of character (team) and intelligence (a student of the game) should be considered before raw talent.
When I go to Vegas and play blackjack, I never hit 17. Sometimes the dealer beats me, but that’s not how to bet.
by YosemiteSam on May 2, 2009 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
A really great analysis
I’m like you, this is why I come to MHR. Great insights from people who have skills in areas that I lack and can so concisely express what I’m seeing.
rec’d
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
Great Post and Rec'd
This is a very good analysis and I completely agree. I have wanted to write something to this manner but have not really had the time to put into it. I complete agree with your analysis of what McDaniels is trying to do and what kind of players he is looking for.
Football is a game of exploitation of weaknesses, and those weaknesses vary by opponent, by time of year, by injuries, by dozens of things. To exploit the variety of weaknesses on a week to week basis requires a variety of strengths. It hardly ever requires one player to be the absolute best at a given task. It requires every single player to be above average at all the tasks (especially fundamentals, like tackling)
.
I could not agree more with this statement. You can have the best players on the planet but if they cannot follow the coaching and execute the plan to exploit the weakness of the opposing team their talents are worthless.
Great first post
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 12:15 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
just call me Gnarly or GBD
no need to spell out the whole name. Welcome to MHR
by gnarlybroncodude on May 2, 2009 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions
awww, but it's so much fun
trying to type gnarlybroncodude quickly without typos :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
gnarly screen name btw
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
There were so many of those in this post I am going to bookmark it...
And then come back periodically to re-read it. It was a little overwhelming the 1st and even 2nd time, wow great post, it will take time to really digest it all.
by lovewatchinthegame on May 2, 2009 4:38 PM MDT up reply actions
What constitutes a team?
Having played team sports I assure you the most talented teams don’t win unless there is character and leadership and intelligence. In fact my most successful teams followed the graduation of some of the most talented players who were jerks and selfish who polarized the locker room.
What a Really Great Post Yosemite--I am really happy that you decided to jump in.
There are many new to contribute here at MHR. I am really excited by posts like yours (and many others) because there seems to be a wonderful influx of new members that are truly fans—notice slightly different aspects of what has, is, and will be happening—and prefer to keep it positive.
You are obviously a tremendous writer….Keep the posts coming!!
.

.
Go Broncos !!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Little, Wright, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Great Insight
Nice post, Ithink you describe McD’s thought process right on!
I love all the new posters
It’s great to see the MHR getting even deeper in knowledgeable, articulate fans! Rec’d!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Doc Bear on May 2, 2009 4:39 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Highly highly rec'd!
Obviously that JV coach who cut you didn’t rate intelligence as highly as McD! ; )
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
Love your post and the insightful comments it brought out
I liked Shanny and I would have given him at least two more years but that said this post brings out what may have been a serious weakness. He erred in disregarding character a little too often especially with many of his well publicized free agent failures. With McDaniels approach might we end up with a team full of Rod Smith types. OK that’s too optimistic let’s say instead a team where half the players are striving to be like Rod and the other half are catching on because it is so contagious. Everyone who makes an NFL team has talent but a team like I’m describing, a team full of overachievers will win Super Bowls. Bring it on, I can’t wait, JD for the hall of fame.
Well at least they'll play in the SB
no one could get a team to over acheive the way Dan Reeves did, but that had it’s dark side as well.



























