Shallow Thoughts & Nearsighted Observations
I am not a very big Sum 41 fan, but they had a great album title a few years ago, in All Killer, No Filler, which our friends at Wikipedia inform me was borrowed from Jerry Lee Lewis, who was significantly cooler than them. I always thought of it as the Sum 41 rule, until I just looked it up, so that continues, I guess.
Anyway, I have adopted it as a rule of ST&NO, in the sense that if I can't think of enough interesting topics to fill a decent column, I won't post one, because I owe it to those who read my work not to waste their time with weak stuff. I started writing some content last week, and it didn't pass the test, so I didn't post anything on Monday. Here goes 2 weeks worth of material, on a Memorial Day Monday. As a veteran myself, I would remind our American community members to take a moment to reflect on the brave servicemen and women who lost their lives in the service of our nation.
To business, then. I am a big fan of versatility. When I work, probably nine days out of ten, I wear black shoes. For that one day when I wear brown shoes, I sure appreciate a reversible belt. It keeps me from having to put incremental cost into purchasing, owning, and maintaining a separate brown belt.
Because it's a pretty slow time of the reloading season, I decided that I would take a run at projecting who makes the 53-man roster out of training camp, and what I came away thinking is that the Broncos' offensive personnel and Josh McDaniels' creativity might lend themselves to being the most versatile offense ever.
The Shanahan-era Broncos were always pretty versatile on offense, but Mike was sort of a football ideologue, in that he believed his overarching schematic principles were better than other principles in use elsewhere. We haven't seen Josh McDaniels run a team yet, but I suspect that he'll be even more adaptable than Shanny, which is one of the most important traits a coach can possess. We already know that he has the chutzpah to trade away a Pro Bowl QB who refused to embrace the program, which is something very few coaches can claim.
Below the fold is my first run at a 53-man roster, and depth chart. I'll be working off of it for the first part of this piece. Ready... BEGIN!!!
| 1st String | 2nd String | 3rd String | 4th String | Practice Squad | |
| QB | Kyle Orton | Chris Simms | Tom Brandstater | ||
| RB | Knowshon Moreno | Peyton Hillis | JJ Arrington | Correll Buckhalter | Kestahn Moore |
| WR | Brandon Marshall | Chad Jackson | Nate Swift | ||
| WR | Jabar Gaffney | Brandon Stokley | |||
| WR | Eddie Royal | Kenny McKinley | |||
| TE | Daniel Graham | Tony Scheffler | Richard Quinn | Marquez Branson | |
| LT | Ryan Clady | Tyler Polumbus | |||
| LG | Ben Hamilton | Kory Lichtensteiger | |||
| C | Casey Wiegmann | Blake Schlueter | |||
| RG | Chris Kuper | Seth Olsen | |||
| RT | Ryan Harris | ||||
| LDE | Robert Ayers | Darrell Reid | Matthias Askew | Everette Pedescleaux | |
| NT | Marcus Thomas | Ronald Fields | Chris Baker | Carlton Powell | |
| RDE | Kenny Peterson | J'Vonne Parker | Rulon Davis | ||
| Rush LB | Elvis Dumervil | Jarvis Moss | |||
| WLB | DJ Williams | Nick Greisen | Lee Robinson | ||
| MLB | Spencer Larsen | Andra Davis | |||
| SLB | Wesley Woodyard | Boss Bailey | |||
| LCB | Champ Bailey | Alphonso Smith | |||
| RCB | Andre Goodman | Jack Williams | |||
| FS | Brian Dawkins | Darcel McBath | David Bruton | ||
| SS | Renaldo Hill | Josh Barrett | |||
| LS | Lonie Paxton | ||||
| K | Matt Prater | ||||
| P | Brett Kern | Briton Colquitt | |||
| Active Roster | Practice Squad | Offense | Defense | Special Teams | |
| 53 | 8 | 24 | 26 | 3 |
1. Offense -
The beauty of a versatile offense is that it can attack the weaknesses of any defense. The personnel group which the Broncos have lends itself to playing any style that the coaching staff deems to give the team the best chance to win. If you want to go run-heavy and pound the Colts, no problem. You have 3 good TEs, and a lot of quality at RB. If you want to spread out the Steelers, also no problem. There are plenty of receiving threats on the roster at WR, TE, and RB. If you want to be really balanced, and keep the Patriots guessing, that's very doable too. It's a beautiful position to find yourself in as an offensive coach.
a. QB - I think Orton will beat out Simms, and that he will play very well. He has weapons and protection here which are vastly better than anything he ever had in Chicago. I expect Simms and Tom Brandstater to both be on the roster. The days of carrying 2 QBs are likely over.
b. RB - Here's the deal on the RB position. There won't be a true FB, but Peyton Hillis will be on the team, and will play a prominent role. (Incidentally, let's also just say no to this H-back foolishness, because the Broncos won't be using one, just like the other 31 teams won't use one, either. Thanks.) If you've seen much recent Patriots football, picture how they used Heath Evans at times, but at a higher volume. Peyton is more talented than Evans, and I'd expect him to touch the ball 8-10 times per game, between the running and passing games. I think that Moreno will start, and be the primary ball-carrier. Arrington has been battling some injuries, but I think he makes the team as the primary kickoff returner, more than anything. Buckhalter probably makes the team, considering what he was paid, and I like Kestahn Moore as a developmental type on the practice squad. He has the look of a guy who can be a key special-teamer. I think Ryan Torain looks like the odd man out, as this regime is not particularly invested in him.
c. WR - I don't know if I think that Chad Jackson is particularly worthy of making this team, but when you use 3 WRs almost all the time, you need 6 on the roster. I feel very good about the other 5, though. I kept Nate Swift on the practice squad too.
d. TE - I mentioned versatility, and these guys, along with Hillis, are the reasons I feel so good about it. I think you can really load up with power guys, with Graham and Quinn, and you can use Scheffler as he has always been used, as a downfield matchup nightmare. I loved the Quinn pick, and this is a tremendously strong position group. Marquez Branson sticks on the practice squad.
e. OL - This starting group is among the best in the NFL, and is definitely the best in pass protection. With legitimate RBs, I expect them to rank near the top of the NFL in both rushing and passing. I am excited about some of the young backup players, too. I think you can stash Schlueter on the practice squad, and work with Polumbus, Olsen, and Lichtensteiger as backups and special teams contributors.
2. Defense -
The thing about a 3-4 is that it's really a lot like the old 5-2. By that, I mean that the key to stopping the run rests with the OLBs setting the edge, and forcing the play back inside to the other players who are maintaining gap discipline. This is a key reason why it works well against zone blocking, because it forces the runner back inside to the lateral pursuit. I think the Broncos can do a decent job of this, with the personnel they have.
a. DL - I think there is actually both quantity and quality here. I consider Robert Ayers and Marcus Thomas to constitute the quality, and a lot of other guys to represent the quantity. I learned recently that Thomas had put on some weight, and was attempting to convert to NT. Whether he plays there, or at DE, I expect that he'll start. He's tremendously talented, and was the team's best D-lineman last season. There is some hand-wringing over whether Ayers is a DE or a LB, but I expect him to play at DE. He plays with enough strength, violence, and physicality to do well in a 3-man front. I like Kenny Peterson to be the 3rd starter, and Ronald Fields, J'Vonne Parker, Darrell Reid, and Matthias Askew to be the backups. I think that Chris Baker, Everette Pedesclaux, and Rulon Davis will stick around, and that two will be practice squad players, Pedesclaux and Davis, in this projection.
b. LB - Elvis Dumervil will be the starting rush LB, and I expect that he'll be backed up by Darrell Reid and Jarvis Moss. I think Moss gets a legitimate chance to convert, and that he can take advantage of it, and contribute. Tim Crowder doesn't make the team in this projection. I think Spencer Larsen will beat out Andra Davis inside, and that DJ Williams will start as a weakside ILB, even though I am not the biggest fan of the idea. I think that Wesley Woodyard was the best LB on the team last season, and I expect him to start at OLB, with Boss Bailey backing him up, more for financial reasons than anything else. I think that Nick Greisen and Lee Robinson will make the team, and contribute on special teams.
c. DB - This will be the strength of the defense, after being the biggest weakness last season. The starters are obvious, with Bailey, Goodman, Dawkins, and Hill, and Alphonso Smith will be ready to play in sub packages right away. I think that Darcel McBath will replace Hill on passing downs, sooner rather than later, and that his ability to play CB will allow the team to keep both Josh Barrett and David Bruton for their special teams abilities, rather than keeping 5 true CBs. I think Jack Williams is the 4th CB, but he'll face a challenge from fellow holdover Josh Bell.
3. Special Teams -
a. Specialists - Prater, Kern, and Paxton are all fairly obvious. I like Britton Colquitt to stick on the practice squad as insurance.
b. Coverage teams - I wanted to call attention to this area, because this is where things get interesting. The coverage teams have been terrible in recent years, but I think there is a lot of available talent to work with now. Imagine this group of 10 players running down on kickoffs: Larsen, Woodyard, Bruton, McBath, Barrett, Jack Williams, Lee Robinson, Greisen, Alphonso Smith, and Champ Bailey. That is a group of athletes who can run and tackle. Expect major improvement in this area.
c. Return game - I think Eddie Royal keeps returning punts, at least part-time, and JJ Arrington will be the primary kickoff returner, with somebody other than Royal joining him.
4. That is a significantly more talented 53-man group than last season's. I know I am supposedly a big homer, but from a pure football evaluation standpoint, I can make a case that the Broncos will be better in all phases of the game in 2009 than they were at the end of 2008.
Think about it. With a more effective running game, and another excellent blocker at TE, the Broncos should convert touchdowns at a higher rate in the red zone. The passing game should be just as effective, owing to the better running, and still execellent WR and OL play. The defense will almost certainly be better, with the revamped secondary. The front-seven could use another draft to improve, but a good start was made this reloading season. If the defense can be league-average, which is clearly feasible, this is almost certainly a 10-plus win team. Add to that what I expect to be vastly improved special teams, and you are on to the reason why I believe the MSM is getting their lowball predictions very wrong.
5. I feel like I need to address the term troll, which I used on this site about the behavior of a few people semi-recently. I've been being called a hypocrite for using it, which is an inapt characterization. It is not my word, and in fact, when you want to flag a comment or post on this blog network, Troll is one of the built-in classifications along with Inappropriate and Spam. Troll is a standard, worldwide internet term. It even has its own Wikipedia page here.
From that page:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
When I used the word troll, I was not referring to these people's character as much as their behavior. Thread-jacking and intentionally inflammatory commenting are examples of troll behavior, and are deserving of the name.
The good doctor, Broncobear, had a great idea in the comments of Sunday's Horse Tracks.
If someone has a different perspective, may I suggest that they post an article? I can’t really be expected to write from a perspective that I don’t have or agree with, and neither can you. Please – I’d love to see more contributions from folks of differing perspectives. As Broncoman’s post on the Washington Redskins has shown, people here take a lot of pride in debating, but the debate can and should avoid name calling and personal attacks. Please enrich the perspectives by adding a well written, well thought-out post on your perspective.
That way, you can let your thoughts stand on their own, and people can comment on them (or not) as they see fit. If you follow the Code of Conduct, your opinions will be allowed to stand here for all to see, just like mine or anybody else's, regardless of what the substance of them is, and nobody will call you a troll. Sounds like a good deal, right? Write whatever you want in your own posts, within reasonable standards of respect and decency, and your voice gets heard.
Now, I suspect that some people will consider this, and figure that most members will just ignore their negative opinions in independent FanPosts, so they will decide to stick to their existing playbook of polluting threads, and denigrating other people's work and opinions. More people irritated is better bang for the buck, right? Understand that that will make you the definition of a troll, and I'll be happy to flag your troll comments every time you make them.
6. I am more interested in this NBA playoff season than I have been in any recent year. I think the reason is that the successful teams are having most of their success because of their role players, more than their stars. That is where the games are mostly being decided, a big last second 3 from LeBron notwithstanding. It reminds me a little of football, where so much hinges on players whose names aren't ever known, or thought of, by casual fans.
One thing bothers me, though, which occurred to me as Cleveland's Goodyear blimp flew over my softball game last Wednesday (which I am proud to report, was won by the Feisty Goat 14-12, with 2 runs and 2 RBI from yours truly.) What in the world is the point of aerial coverage of an NBA game? All you can see is the exterior of the Thinly Disguised Cult Center, or whatever it's called. Why is that compelling television? Couldn't the blimp operating company just buy a few commercials, and leave the blimp in the barn? That would be a good baby step toward reducing our national carbon footprint, which we could all feel good about. Just a thought....
7. Retired for John Elway.
8. I saw this article on ESPN.com on Sunday, with the headline "Report : Ex-con advised on Dallas facility." This is a classic ESPN journalistic turd. The fact that this person team spent time in prison on drug trafficking charges is absolutely irrelevant to the facility failing to hold up to the wind. What may be somewhat meaningful is the fact that he seems to have falsified his educational credentials, but that is mentioned at the bottom of the story. Emphasize that, and try to make a case that the guy is incompetent, based upon the independent accounts of those who have been colleagues or clients of the guy. Otherwise, don't waste the bandwidth or the storage space, mmmkay?
9. It's interesting to see that Braylon Edwards and Shaun Rogers are now both claiming to be happy to be Cleveland Browns. I have to wonder if that isn't simply the realization that they can't do much to change it right now.
10. I would be pretty happy to have Greg Ellis at the right price as another option on the edge of the defense, and it appears that the Cowboys are determined to move him. The Broncos haven't been mentioned in any rumors yet, but a lot of national writers forget that the Broncos exist sometimes, so I wouldn't say it means that much. Ellis is a guy who has been very solid for a long time.
11. (Emphatically NOT retired for Patrick Ramsey.) From the Programming Department of ST&NO, once the preseason starts, I am planning to shift ST&NO to Tuesday mornings, and give it even more of an around-the-league feel. Since TSG already does a Monday morning post-game analysis, I think this new approach adds more value in the holistic sense. I will have a fair amount of Broncos thoughts, and some thoughts about several featured other games. (I watched every game for the first 9 weeks of last season, and realized that that is really hard to do, so I won't try to repeat it.)
One feature that I think will be really cool, and definitely original, will be a dedicated weekly analysis of the offensive and defensive line play of both teams in a selected game. That way, when a terrible player like Flozell Adams makes the Pro Bowl again, you can refer back to the time when I analyzed him, and described how Osi Umenyiora eviscerated him, in between the 4 false start penalties he had.
I am open for other suggestions also, so if there's something you'd like me to cover, drop me a line. Just about anything can fit into ST&NO, as you know by now. Have a great week, and we'll see you next Monday, as I already know what to do the rest of the reloading season, on the killer vs. filler front. Until then....
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Comments
EPIC!
Nice work as usual, TB. Solid solid stuff. But just one question about your depth chart — do we really have no potential depth behind Ryan Harris??
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
Polumbus would back up both Tackles
I didn’t list players more than once, because it messed up the COUNTIF function in Excel that was keeping track of the numbers for me. Olsen could play on the right side too.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 7:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Hi Ted, havent read below the fold yet---just wanted to jump in here and say Happy Memorial Day, from one Vet to Another...
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on May 25, 2009 7:29 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Happy Memorial Day to all you vets!
Thanks for keep ing us free!
"when they find the center of the universe, i know quite a few people that are going to be upset it isn't them" dmitchell624
by dmitchell624 on May 25, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks TB
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
I worry about a drop-off in our O-line...
Haven’t we always been known to favor smaller, quicker O-linemen, who can shift quickly for a zone blocking scheme? If we’re trying to move to a power running team, do we have the personnel for that? Aren’t we still among the smaller O-lines in the league?
A mixture of the Patriot blocking scheme with ours might produce a drop off in effectiveness, at the very least for the reason that we’re asking our linemen to think differently, act differently, and emphasize skills differently.
What do you think?
Great article, btw.
I'm curious about that, too
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 25, 2009 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks TB
I’ve been wanting to put together a list of the special teams starters, if only to measure the all-around improvement I expect in the area. Yours is quite nice, and shows how much things change when a team commits to special teams in terms of both the players who touch the ball and those who don’t.
Well Thought Out
You are right, it starts with the strategies and schemes. From there you pick the players most likely to succeed. Also, some people like to dream that FAs will be fabulous out of camp and jump into starting roles, but not only is it unlikely, this coach brought in people who are familiar with his system at various positions to make sure there are enough relevant experience on the field to ingrain the system. You are right, most of the young guys below the 2nd round picks will be 3rd stringers or practice squad players this year, and get more of a chance to break into the lineup down the road.
This is one post I would like to revisit and see how well you have done come September. I think it’s spot on.
Great post Ted.
I am going to stick with Ryan Torain for now. I believe if he can stay healthy he may be a better fit than Buckhalter. I wish the FO could create jobs around the Dove Valley complex for the remaining players, seems like the string of talent goes on and on.
The team has made leaps and bounds of towards being better on defense and the players we have will adapt to the new system (3-4) just fine IMO. I hope Jarvis Moss makes the transition to OLB, the few games he played in last season was at LDE. I watched the game yesterday against the Falcons (‘08) and it seemed like he got stood up quite a bit in the down position. Maybe he is better fit for the upright mode. We’ll see.
As for the “Troll” thing, I have problem with other people’s opinions (because we all have one), the thing that bothers me the most is the name caling. IMO, if you can’t say the man’s name right don’t say it at all. It become deflamitory not only to the name being called but to the people who appreciate that person. I don’t have a problem with nicknames such as McD, or BDawk, etc. but when it comes to McDumbass or McDoofus than that hurts not only the name being called but those who admire them. As for the smart-ellic remarks people make, if one is pointed towards me I just ignore it and consider the source and that person becomes small in their own world. Kind of like a sore, don’t pick at the “scab” leave it alone, it will heal eventually, and if not you haven’t lost much. An old proverb: A kind word turns away much wrath. 13-3 Baby!!!
Thanks, Ted
Nice write up.
I worry about Bailey on the ST’s. I don’t want him injured because someone chipped him running down the field.
Other than that, I’m going to try my hand at being a troll to see if it brings me personal satisfaction and happiness. That, of course, is assuming I’m not a troll currently. :)
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
Bailey has been the safety man on Kickoffs the last few years...
So my assumption is that he would still have the willingness to do it. Good luck with your troll endeavors
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I know, and I didn't like it then either.
I thought it was a stop gap measure after ST was so horrible they needed a sure tackler. I also thought he only started on Special teams the last half of last year. Absolutely could be wrong on that. I didn’t have Sunday Ticket last year, so was only able to watch a few games.
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
I don't remember that clearly
All things being equal, I agree with you, but I want a kick coverage team to find the ball and tackle, first and foremost.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
solace
The lack of a Sunday Ticket equivalent in other supplier options drove me nuts last season. Happily, being in san diego, the cards fell so that I only missed a couple of games, but that was far too much. I took an NFL Rewind membership for about 20 bucks and got to not only watch al the games during the following week but also to run the plays over and over and got to break them down and analyze them as well. Money very well spent.
Ted: I’m glad that the suggestion was worthwhile. Your post is of your usual quality (danged great) and I appreciate your endeavors. Parker over Powell? Interesting – I agree that we’ve seen nothing from Powell so far other than rehab, but I haven’t seen anything from Parker either. Chosen for size, or other attributes? McDaniels does like them larger, and after watching us get hammered down over the course of many games and most seasons, that’s something that I could get behind.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Off-topic a little bit..
I live in Canada and get 0 Broncos games unless they’re Monday Nighters. Seen your suggestion of NFL Rewind, how long does it truly take for full games to be uploaded? Highly interested in the membership as it is quite cheap and if they’re uploaded relatively quickly then I’m all for it.
I see they’re selling the membership for the 2008 season, when do you think memberships for 2009 will be out?
by Matt In Canada on May 25, 2009 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Oops...
And of course it’s only available in the USA.
by Matt In Canada on May 25, 2009 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions
They are loaded by the next day, and generally faster
If you’re the kind of bear who likes to hibernate with a remote, texting pause, forward, reverse, pause until your paws go numb (like I am), it’s an absolute steal.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Nice Work
Great to read, especially considering I’ve been keeping my own excel spreadsheet for about the past two months. A few variances but not many.
On my sheet I have Fox and Bell making it, but Josh Barrett not making it. However you make a good point that ST need to improve and Barrett helps in that regard more than Fox I believe. I have very little to go on regarding Barrett’s safety abilities which is why I left him off.
Saw Crowder making the team over Moss but really I have little data to go on in that regard, just figured that he’s a bulkier player (although less athletic) making him more versitile regarding line-down vs stand up. Also had Davis and Boss Bailey starting (initially anyway) over the younger Larsen and Woodyard.
Also feel that Powell will make the team over Baker (who slides to the PS) however that depends on whether Denver feels Baker will make it to their PS and stay there. Will be follwing that one closely considering the premium on NT’s and Denver’s need to have a classic 2 gap NT learn the system asap.
Also I only had 5 WR’s making the team (Jackson left off) and keeping Erickson on the line however history shows that 8 is normally the number on the OL, especially in a 3 WR base so you’re accurate there. Plus the FA OL is more likely to be on the market when you need him vs the WR. And to top it off Jackson spent time with McD in NE so I’m changing my sheet on that one.
Finally I’m projecting Scheffler traded for a 3 next yr (hoping for a two, as are the Broncos), with the recently signed Putzier being the downfield guy and Denver getting more out of Graham in PAP situations.
Still betting that we get a DL on the FA market when the second set of salary cap related cuts come down.
Again great read thanks for the effort.
Powell or Baker
Also feel that Powell will make the team over Baker (who slides to the PS) however that depends on whether Denver feels Baker will make it to their PS and stay there.
I agree with Rudy here. Powell will be snapped up in a hurry if the Broncos cut him. He was a 5th round pick who’s had a full year to rehab and gave up negative yards vs the run in college and he’s put on a lot of muscle this last year. I bet Powell sees a lot of time at NT this year.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Bradely
you took the words out of my mouth….I think Powell will be a big surprise this year. I think he is one reason the Broncos did not feel desperate to draft a NT this year.
Don't trade Scheffler!
When healthy he is one of the best TE’s in the league. I’m going to be doing a big post on our entire roster using the DVOA data – but I can tell you now that Scheff has been in the top 10 for TE’s for 2 years running.
Lets see if he can stay healthy before even considering a trade.
by British Bronco on May 25, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong, I think Scheffler is great
Especially after reading what Brewster put him through in his rookie year in Stefan Fatsis’ A Few Seconds of Panic.
But, from what I have read (those closer to the situation may have better knowledge), Scheffler does not fit what McD would want in a TE. His talents would go to waste. I’ve heard recently McD say that they’re keeping Scheffler but I’m assuming that is just to keep his trade value high.
Plus they just signed Putzier who supposedly has the similar skill set to Scheffler (albiet not nearly as good), although I don’t know too much about the Putzier contract and if its a voidable one at no real cost.
If Scheffler can get us a 2 or even a 3 next year I’d rather have that then have Scheffler getting 1-2 balls tossed his way each game.
Too many folks are selling scheff short
And who says he won’t be used much, the same folks praising coach for being versatile? I bet he’ll use what works! A receiving TE of his caliber requires the defense to adjust at the very least. If our new QB needs a consistent target or if teams over-cover our receivers… I reckon if Josh is smart, he’ll keep him AND use him.
But is he?
by Whidbey Bronco on May 25, 2009 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions
The effect of injuries
Thanks Ted for the nice article. For all you vets — no thanks is enough. I’m concerned which injuries would be most hurtful to our projections, since we know they’re going to happen. I would think other than the obvious skill positions that we could least afford to lose Clady or Harris on the OL. What do you think?
I'd agree
A lot of folks don’t know that off all the positions in football, the left tackles rank second behind the QB in salary. There’s a god reason for that – first, they protect your primary investment and second they are nearly irreplaceable. Harris ranks just behind Clady in my book, and perhaps Wiegmann comes in third (I don’t know if Steiger is ready to take over, and I hoep that we don’t need to find out.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Carlton Powell on the Practice Squad?
Was hoping he would be better than that.
My Mind Wanders...
So, recently I made up a band name and album title. Would you guys consider listening to The Iffy Plans of Weak Minds by the group Better Late Than Pregnant? The first single would be The Morning After Prom Night. I need something better to do with my time…
"The mystic chords of fandom, stretching from every trade and signing to every active account and guest all over this broadband, will yet swell the chorus of union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature". ~ Abraham Lincoln-ish
"The tree of victory must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of quarterbacks and coaches". ~ Thomas Jefferson-ish
by ejruiz on May 25, 2009 9:14 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
lol
Classic. And I dig the -ish quotes as well, ej. Nice work.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 25, 2009 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions
TY.
I almost forgot about the quotes… as you can tell, they were inspired by the tumult of the reloading season that we have thankfully since surpassed.
"The mystic chords of fandom, stretching from every trade and signing to every active account and guest all over this broadband, will yet swell the chorus of union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature". ~ Abraham Lincoln-ish
"The tree of victory must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of quarterbacks and coaches". ~ Thomas Jefferson-ish
Yes, absolutely
That’s a classic ST&NO comment there. :)
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 9:34 AM MDT up reply actions
HAHAHA!
I always love the juxtaposition of your chosen segment title and the depth of your actual work, so I guess my comment lines up with the former more than the latter!
"The mystic chords of fandom, stretching from every trade and signing to every active account and guest all over this broadband, will yet swell the chorus of union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature". ~ Abraham Lincoln-ish
"The tree of victory must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of quarterbacks and coaches". ~ Thomas Jefferson-ish
Great ST&NO!
Great post! I’ve been waiting to see some depth chart analysis. I wanted to offer up a future ST&NO topic to see if you’re interested and play a little devil’s advocate on the roster.
I am a big believer in McD and believe in the direction he has started us on. In my haste to crown him the next Belicheck, I realize that its his first year and even the great coaches make mistakes in their first year. My proposal for a topic is what are the common or a short record of the mistakes by first year coaches that prove to be great. For instance, Belicheck, Parcells, J. Johnson, B. Walsh, T Dungy, Shanahan. Although I just wrote a post (Analyzing McD) that is somewhat critical of McD (I actually was giving Devil Advocate opinion where I thought feasible), I see most of what he does as brilliant. At risk of drinking his kool aid though, I am looking for some sort of reality check on my expectations for him.
With respect to your depth chart, it looks great. I am a little surprised at how high the hopes are for Hillis and Woodyard. I don’t think they are gross over estimates of their character or play, only that McD’s approach may lead to a different result.
One question I have is: Despite all the addtions and changeover McD has brought to the initial roster, do you really think he will leave 6 players from last years front 7 in starting spots? Of course, I think he will if they demonstrate their worth, but I feel like those players will have to prove themselves above and beyond the player right behind them. I think if two guys are pretty close, then McD, really his new assistant, will be looking to the new guy (either the younger one or the experienced FA signee). If I am even half right on that approach, then I think those numbers decrease.
2nd Question: How many touches did Heath Evans get a game at NE? I think if Hillis is as good as advertised, then he only gets maybe 2 more per game. I think that may come to 6 touches max and I don’t think its every game. I just expect McD to rely more on his system and I think the quick versatile back may fit that better, especially with the great OL and TEs you mentioned.
Hillis - Den ATL on NFLN
RE: Hillis. Wondering this myself. However I think we have enough info to know just how good he is. Was watching NFLN and they had Den ATL from last year on, specifically Hillis first NFL TD. Not sure if it would be on youtube or not but if you’ve got questions about his talents, ability and potential, watch that run. Even loses his helmet on the play. Forgot what a beast he really is..just think of a white Marion Barber. If he can stay healthy he’ll be getting the ball somehow.
It isn't just him
Its all about how McD views it. I loved the highlight and love the player. Woodyard and Larsen seem like simliar diamond in the rough finds. I just can’t see all of ‘em making the cut, let alone starting for McD. If they do make the cut, then they are set to prove McD wrong as the year goes on. Just by looking at the number of moves at RB and all the other guys he has brought in, I can’t imagine that with all the tape he has seen he is as confident in these guys. I do think if the RB and LB coaches push to keep ’em they will stay. I think as long as they are not on the bubble, then McD will not pull the trigger.
by BideshiBronco on May 25, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Good Point...
…and point taken. I guess I made the same point in a thread above with Scheffler. Regardless of what there talents are it is up to new coach McD and how he plans to use them, and he has no affiliation with last year or what the players did last year.
I like the methodology
I agree with your methodology. The way to attack this is question is by creating a depth chart.
For the most part, I believe you’ve nailed the starters. But I disagree with your projections at a couple positions. For starters (no pun intended), I don’t see Spencer Larsen beating out Andra Davis. I’m newly registered on this forum, but I’ve been reading it since the start of the year. And I’ve noticed that this forum seems to over-value Larsen. I’m a Bronco-maniac. I watched all their games last season, and I don’t think Larsen merits the praise that’s heaped on him here. So far, he’s proven serviceable.
I also don’t believe Ayers will start at DE. I think he’ll be an OLB. Reports suggest that he’s working out with the linebackers. And if you look at the size of the of the DEs in New England last year, they were both over 300 pounds. I realize Nolan isn’t Belichek and that he might have different requirements for his position players. But a quick survey of players who started as 3-4 DEs for various teams last season yields 300 pounders aplenty. Ayers is too small. If you’re drafting his athleticism, I’m not sure why you’d ask him to bulk up to 300 pounds (see the Jarvis Moss debacle).
I’d love to see Woodyard start at some position. I believe he’s special. The problem is, I don’t believe he’ll beat out DJ or Davis on the inside and I think Dumervil and Ayers will start on the outside (I don’t believe the Broncos will have a designated “rush LB,” but rather will allow the fourth rusher to come from any number of positions). Maybe Woodyard will spell any of the linebackers in certain situations. Who knows?
I’m not sure how Boss Bailey fits in at all. He might be schemed out. In my view, OLB is our most confusing position. We have a bunch of candidates, but no proven starters. Dumervil, Ayers, Moss, Crowder, Reid, Woodyard and Bailey could all fit the bill, but they’re all transitioning. Indeed, I’d say the one I feel the best about is Ayers and he’s never played a down in the NFL. Kind of unsettling.
Anyway, good job.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on May 25, 2009 9:34 AM MDT reply actions
I think Larsen is better in a 30 front
because he has less ground to cover, and he’s more of a natural plugger than a side-to-side pursuer. This is just a projection on my part, but I think it will come to pass. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion AJF!
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
A pleasure to read Ted, and very insightful--you have a gift with words, I believe we will have over 10 wins also.
Speaking of words—funny things they are, we use them for everything. Our main use ofcourse is to communicate
with each other. However their are other uses—-couple a word with emotional intent, can lift a heart, or destroy the
same. Alot depends on how it is recieved, and maturity of the individual.
That said, Ted, I am referring to #5 in your post about Horse Tracks yesterday, as I was imtimately involved. If I
could inpart any words of wisdom to you my friend ( since wisdom comes with age— Dos’nt it? ) I would say to you, What you think of me—is none of my business. ( I believe it is the title of a book ) You see, as we get older,
( and I am getting there ) Time puts many things into perspective, and I have come to realize, Life is 10% what
happens to you, and 90% what you THINK happened to you, YES—-our ATTITUDE. As I said yesterday, we all
come here for our emotional fix.
So Troll or not to Troll—-the word is not the thing.
How about them Broncos—13- 3 Baby
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
Two punters??
Sorry, Colquitt can work out on his own somehwere. Much better to have, say, Torain on the PS. Although I’m hoping Torain can get stashed on the PUP list.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Great post Ted - Almost too much to take in - Good stuff!
Happy Memorial Day! Somebody above said thanks to our Vets is not enough but it’s all I have right now. Thank You for my lifestyle and the safety of my family! (My kids will be set down and taught a bit today)
I love your roster with very few exceptions. I have Larson, Woodyard & Hillis a step lower in favor of Baily, Davis & Buckhalter & one more O-line Back-up vs one less QB but it’s very early of course. I’d like to see Scheffler earn the start as well. As usual I agree with most of your comments… It’ll be interesting to see where Ayers lands. I agree with your take on McD being versatile enough to play a guy like him where he’s strongest as opposed to forcing him to a place of need. Hopefully he’s a DL.
“In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response1 or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.2”
Just because they list it as a term, it makes it ok to use? (Never mind that it most certainly DOES NOT apply to me!) The standard terms Arsehole & Pompous Jerk are also listed. The fact that they may apply, does not make them appropriate to use …so I don’t. lol
As far as posts with different perspectives… Different topics, sure. Beyond that, isn’t one of the points of posting (along with information sharing), that it offers a forum for the discussion of varying perspectives on a given topic?
Let’s let this one die eh?
by Whidbey Bronco on May 25, 2009 10:21 AM MDT reply actions
I really like the projection!
i love that mcdaniels is making everyone work for a starting spot. none given. the beauty of this is that guys that are paid less could potentialy start over guys that are making big bucks. i see WW and Larsen starting over boss and davis. guys that the front office has invested money in. i hope marcus thomas is putting on this weight the right was. not just eating mcdonalds every time he can. he has a lot of talent and i would it if he “ate” it all away
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win"-Brandon Marshall
Neckbeard vs The Spleen: How better can this get?!?!
Excellent TB
When you switch to tuesdays i will ask you about posting a link to your articles on our Talk shows web site!
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
"We should have kept Seattle and dumped San Diego from the Division"
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
Re: #8 "This is a classic ESPN journalistic turd"
Heartily agree with your take, Ted. And sadly, I think it’s more broadly indicative of the MSM as a whole, and not just ESPN – to highlight irrelevant facts to make the story more juicy and compelling. This reminds me of an opinion piece posted on NewScientist in March from a researcher lamenting the distortion of media reports on scientific studies – particularly on hot topics like autism.
This drama is perfect for newspapers wanting compelling stories that will run and run.
Obviously, some amount of salted debate is useful and necessary, but often the sensational and mendacious presentation of information does nothing but polarize the public discourse.
"From the get-go, we targeted a certain type of player: tough, smart, competitive, versatile, a good person that loves football and wants to win." -Coach McDaniels
by Colorado_Kitten on May 25, 2009 10:51 AM MDT reply actions
Yeah, we're being spammed like crazy
Hit the Flag button when you wee one of these – I’ve already done so, so they’ll go away as soon as TSG or HT or someone sees it.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Just so folks know
When you flag something, the only person who will see that flag is TSG. His is the sole and final authority and only he will decide whether or not to delete or take other action.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Maybe TSG...
….should delegate a little authority to other staff members, for cases like this. I count over 50 messages from this guy.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
Yikes!
I was working on a fanpost…but I think I’ll wait on publishing it so it doesn’t get lost in the spam…
"From the get-go, we targeted a certain type of player: tough, smart, competitive, versatile, a good person that loves football and wants to win." -Coach McDaniels
by Colorado_Kitten on May 25, 2009 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions
This is an interesting take.
I definitely think that you got a lot of it right.
*On the offensive side, I think McD remembers the success that the Giants had running up the gut against the Pats 3-4 in the SB and has a plan for Hillis. The Mario Barber comparison is apt. I see Knowshon as 1a and Hillis as 1b, when they want to pound the snot out of people or sense weakness in the middle. I would like to see his reps kept low though until November and December, when I think that he will play an important role in those critical months against defenses that are usually starting to have some holes thanks to injuries.
*I think Ayers will be our ROLB. Every interview has indicated that he will play OLB. He is our Adalius Thomas. They will definitely keep 4 of Ayers, Dum, Bailey, Reid, Moss, and Crowder. Somehow, I just think Moss will make it as a 5th, but it makes it tight on the rest of the roster.
*It seems to me that Bailey should be a good starter or backup at LOLB if he can stay healthy.
*Woodward probably plays inside and backus up DJ.
*Larsen, seasoned a year, has good chance of winning the ILB job. Like Ted said, he is more of a plugger than a sideline to sideline MLB. He should be a great fit for the interior of our defense. It is going to be very interesting to see who wins the job between Larsen and Davis. I think that he is going to give Davis a run for his money.
*As someone pointed out, 3-4 DTs are usually over 300 pounds. I think the DL will be:
NT: Fields, Baker
RDT: Peterson, (1 or 2 of Davis, Pedes, McBean, Askew)
LDT: Thomas, Powell (both can also play NT)
My sleeper is Davis to backup Peterson. I know that Davis is a rookie, so this probably won’t happne, but I just want a guy named Rulon on the team again. However, I could easily see McBean or Askew winning the position. Really, they are all complete unknowns. If you are going to Vegas, though, you probably want to bet on the experience of McBean or Askew.
*The secondary battle between Barrett, Bruton, Bell and Williams is going to be fascinating to watch as well.
Good post. I always enjoy your articles.
by Orange Crush II on May 25, 2009 11:38 AM MDT reply actions
Excellent as always.
Thanks for putting the H-Back thing to rest. It is one of the most over-used and misunderstood terms roaming around football this year. A true H-Back is part of a system (as run for a time by the Redskins, for example), and is a very rare thing. Not that a Hillis or another similar player couldn’t do it; it is just that we aren’t going to run an H-Back program. (Maybe this would make a good MHR University article if folks are interested. H-Back doesn’t simply mean a RB that can do it all – run, block, catch).
I don’t think any two people would put together the same depth chart, so reasonable people will disagree. I have a few positions I might disagree on, but my guess is as good as anyone’s. Here’s a few quick thoughts though:
First, I was surprised to not see Stokely as the starting slot receiver. He’s a veteran route runner, can still take big hits over the middle, and has great hands. But I’m also thinking Powell is a darkhorse for NT as a starter. At the very least, I think he makes the roster as a second or third string NT. Last, I agree with Ayers at DE. A lot of folks have good arguments for Ayers at OLB, but I’m in the camp that sees him as more of a DE.
Good article, and rec’d of course!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
As do I ht, MHR-U--one day I hope to graduate in Xs & Os and know what I'm talking about...lol
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
Will start working on it right away guys.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on May 26, 2009 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Ted - as always, good work!
I’ll throw my two cents in just for fun. As with HT above, the first thing that jumped out was Gafney over Stokely. I have to respectfully disagree. I watched Gafney in Houston for a few years and he never really showed me anything – in fact, I was kind of surprised we signed him. The counter argument is that he’s one of McD’s guys and therefore has an advantage. I see him as the fourth of four wides – at best. Second, between Davis and Larsen, I haven’t seen Davis play enough to really say, but I think Larsen is technically sound as a plugger and block shedder but is somewhat slow – you’re right in as much as the 3-4 will help counter the speed issue. If Davis has better speed and is equal technically, I think he starts. RBs: I’m not that crazy about the Buckhalter, Arrington and Jordan signings, especially in light of the Moreno draft choice. I think one of them sticks as insurance and truly hope that Torain not only gets an opportunity, but stays healthy enough to seize it. Go Broncs!
It's "just" football
wasn't sharpe listed as H back...?
back in the day?
Or was that just on a video game? I forget, lol.
Cogent Analysis
Ted,
This is the kind of analytical reporting that I love on this site. I enjoy the depth chart and positional analysis. Thanks
by Baltimore Bronco on May 25, 2009 5:47 PM MDT reply actions
Excellent post TB
I was happy to see that you started with a 3-4 defensive front with a rushing LB. I talked to a 49’er fan friend who told me that several of the D players under Nolan did not know what their assignments were when they were switching between 4-3 to 3-4. Running off a basic 3-4 with hybrids etc – to me – makes more sense than switching. Unless you are a New England who have been doing this for years.
I was one of those who favored Ayers as a LB or hybrid. His greater contribution could come at DE. He appears to have the athleticism and the power. We will see how the training camp turns out. I look for both Baker and Powell to come on 2nd-3rd week of camp.
I am getting excited about 2009.
Shannon Sharpe was initially listed as a H-back. I think in 1989.
I messed up on the previous post saying “Yes”.
The true H-Back position hasn't been widely used in the NFL in many years
It was a creation of Joe Gibbs in the 80s, to solve the problem of Lawrence Taylor running wild. Media people understand H-back to mean “small, fast, receiving TE” but that isn’t correct at all. It was invented as a concept to get a good blocker into the body of (the only real) LT as quickly as possible. Those Redskins H-backs didn’t catch the ball much at all. The term is widely misused by the media, and therefore, misunderstood by fans.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on May 25, 2009 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for that clarification TB
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Even the LT angle
is a media creation. Gibbs installed the H-back in 1981, Taylor’s rookie season. Unless Gibbs had a crystal ball, how could he have installed it for LT?
Gibbs created the H-back position because he wanted the advantage a 2 TE set gave him over 3-4 defenses, but he didn’t want to give up the iso block that a FB gave him. Hence he would use 2 TEs but put one in motion to lead block throguh the hole when he wanted an iso block.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 26, 2009 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions
pre-season anticipation building?
I can see the pre-season anxiety in this article. Can’t wait for the real thing, can’t even wait for training camp. I share your pain. The article is very good. However, it does not account for injuries, which always affect day one rosters. I would have included a bubble column for the next best player in the event an injury prevents a player from making the roster. Also, I don’t know why the team picked up Correll Buckhalter. Maybe it was just early and they were anxious to upgrade, then other players became available. He’s good, but not a starter and not even worth jettisoning some other promising talent, like Ryan Torain. Also, I didn’t realize Carlton Powell was even eligible for the practice squad and, like another commenter, thought he was better than that. If he is on the practice squad, another team will grab him. I see Marcus Thomas as a DE in a 3-4, not a NT. Fields and the rookie are more likely to be there. Ayers will be coming out of the LB position to torment offenses and likely in a rotation at DE and LB. This is a better team on both sides of the ball than many give it credit for being. I’m even thinking that Kyle Orton will rival another Purdue QB, Drew Brees, in stats. As far as the schedule, its misleading to rate schedules based on last year’s performance. Besides, Denver seems to thrive on tough schedules and swoon on easy schedules. Denver will do fine this year. Better than many expect. I like many of the moves and all the draft picks. Another year of good off-season moves could make an awesome team.
Depth chart
Sort of late on this conversation, but just got back from out of town for a few weeks.
TedBartlett905
Appreciate your work. And only would question some things for very personal reasons, which is what most of this is anyway. But to add to the conversation, I’ll offer the following.
For my 53 I have 27 O, 23 D, & 3 ST’s – which seems a more normal distribution, though there are exceptions.
Agree with you on 3 QBs. Brandstater is on the roster. Don’t risk PS for what might become a ‘franchise" QB.
I have 5 RBs – Moreno, Buckhalter, Jordan, Arrington and Torain if he survives TC (otherwise Walker) with Moore to PS
Agree on 8 OL – Clady, Hamilton, Wiegmann, Kuper, Harris, Polumbus, Olsen and the survivor (Lichtensteiger, McChesney, Gorin, Murray, Erickson); Schlueter to the PS
I have 7 WRs – Marhsall, Royal, Gaffney, Stokley, McKinley, Jackson, Swift
And 4 TEs – Graham, Quinn, Hillis, Scheffler (I don’t have FBs or HBs, though Hillis is both)
For the 23 D
5 DL – NT Fields, Baker; DE Thomas, Pedescleaux, Powell
9 LB – OLB Ayers, Reid, Moss, Bailey (if healthy or Rulon Davis); ILB Williams, Davis, Greisen, and either Larsen or Woodyard; Robinson to the PS.
5 CB – Bailey, Goodman, Smith, Williams, Johnson
4 S – Dawkins, Hill, McBath, Barrett; Bruton to the PS.
3 ST – Prater, Kern, and Paxton (If Colquitt is better that Prater in TC, keep him for both K and P and add another DL – Parker or Peterson)
Some of my reasoning:
I expect 2 and 3 TE sets.
5 RBs seems to follow the trend of current RB durability or lack thereof, plus the increased use of RBs in situations. The era of the 25+ carry per game RB is over. I thought of putting Hillis in the RB group and eliminating Torain. Since he could also be used as a TE/HB (dirty word) that might open another roster slot. Could add a DL (Parker or Peterson) or LB (Woodyard, Davis or Robinson).
DL of 315lb+ bodies reduces the number necessary on the squad. Powell, Thomas, Fields, Baker could all play some NT. I expect to see Pedescleaux to getting more and more playing time as the year progresses. (IMO Baker, Thomas, and Pedescleaux is potentially the most talented and athletic DL we might eventually have, and possibly one of the most talented in the NFL.) Also, Ayers and Reid could play DE in situations. (Wish I knew more about Parker.)
OLBs include Ayers and Reid. They fit the 3-4 profile forOLB who can also set in down stances. IMO neither is the required 300 lbs for DE. Moss might just thrive in OLB. For some reason I think Boss may put injuries behind him and become productive this year. If so, he’ll play in the OLB rotation significantly. That puts Rulon Davis on the PS, but he’ll probably move onto the roster sooner rather than later. If so, someone will be pushed. Dumervil, as much as I like his hustle, will not IMO fill an OLB role for more than one year – two at the most. If he’s not gone this year, he will be in a year or two, after a couple of more drafts. He’s just too short to block passing lanes (there’s a reason OLBs are mostly 6-3 and more). And while he has sufficient speed for up field rushes, he has not demonstrated the agility necessary for pass coverage. If he proves to have it, I’d be elated. But I’m not holding my breath.
While I put Bruton on the PS, he may compete for playing time both on STs and in packages. If so, Barrett, (alas) will find himself pushed. I, for one, would like to see Barrett thrive.
by Ivan the Not So Bad on May 27, 2009 1:56 AM MDT reply actions

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