5-2 Defenses, Hybrids and the Future
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 6:12 PM MDT
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PrintOver the past few months I have repeatedly made the comment, "stop thinking 3-4 and think 5-2." That's a vague statement; what does it really mean? Let me describe the evolution of my own thinking before getting into what I meant by that statement. Last January I went over the state of Denver's defense and my thoughts about our needs here, here, and here. Once it was announced that we would be shifting to a 3-4 defense one of the biggest question marks I had was what to do with tweeners like Doom and Moss who didn't fit well in a traditional 3-4 scheme. Then we signed Reid, another tweener and drafted Ayers yet another tweener. Word from OTAs was that Crowder was also being tried out at LB with the rest of the tweeners. What the heck were the Broncos thinking? Then I got some insight - the Broncos weren't planning on a 3-4, at least not what most people think of when they think of the 3-4. They were going to run a variation of the old 5-2 for their base - at least that seemed to be a useful way to think about it.
The Oklahoma 52
In the old days of football players played both ways. Defensive formations were a mirror image of the offense using the same players. Most offenses used 7 players on the line and 4 backs so most defenses had 7 players on the line and 4 defensive backs. When teams were running the single-wing this worked out well enough. Then along came the T-formation.
The T-formation introduced significantly more fakes and misdirection. Teams were finding that their defensive line, especially the interior linemen, were getting caught inside and long gains to the outside became more frequent. Bud Wilkinson, head coach of the Oklahoma Sooners had a solution. Wilkinson had his two defensive guards stand up and back off the line to back up the defensive line. The modern linebacker was born. With his new 5-2 defense Wilkinson's Sooners ran off a 31-game winning streak from 1948 to 1950. After two off years they then ran off a 47-game winning streak from 1953 to 1957. Over an 11 year period the Sooners went 107-8-2. To put this is perspective, no other team in NCAA history has ever won more than 35 games.
Wilkinson had a defensive assistant, Chuck Fairbanks, who went on to become head coach of the Sooners and later head coach of the NE Patriots in the NFL. Fairbanks made further adjustments to the system. First he had his defensive ends stand up so they could read the backfield better and drop off into coverage. Later he replaced the DEs with LBs and the modern 3-4 was born. Even today many Division 2 and HS teams run variations on the Oklahoma 5-2.
So Denver's gonna run a high school defense?
No we did that last year. I don't actually think the Broncos will run a 5-2 defense. But it provides a useful metaphor for looking at their off-season moves. And it's not without precedent. When Joe Collier first instituted the 3-4 in Denver he was blessed with an amazing linebacker corps - Jackson, Swenson, Gradishar, and Rizzo may have been the best linebacker corps ever assembled. Even with this amazing group, Collier didn't blitz that often. Primarily he relied on his D-line, Alzado, Carter, Chavous, Smith, etc, to bring the heat; and they did.
Eventually the studs that made up the Orange Crush succumbed to age, injuries, or other distractions. Collier, always the innovator had to adjust. As he looked to adjust he found two defensive linemen, Karl Mecklenburg and Simon Fletcher. Both were great athletes, great defenders, though undersized for the D-line. Collier turned both into "linebackers" but not just ordinary linebackers - hybrid linebackers. He would move them around, line them up on the line, back them off, use them to rush the passer or drop them into coverage. They disrupted the defense while Jackson, Ryan, Dennison, Brooks, Croel, would race around making tackles. Collier found a way to put 5 linemen on the field with only 2 true linebackers and create havoc for opposing teams. An active participant in this defensive madness was then Linebackers Coach Mike Nolan - the current DC.
Thanks for the History Lesson But So What
Well while most observers have been wondering what Denver was going to do with all those misfit tweeners, the Broncos have been out acquiring more instead of picking up the linebackers they really needed. Why? Well maybe they they don't think they need more linebackers. What if the Broncos want tweeners? For a moment consider what a base 5-2 defense would look like: NT - Fields and maybe Thomas or Powell; DT they have Peterson, Thomas, Clemons, McBean, etc. Inside LB they have Davis, DJ, Larsen, Woodyard. And on the outside they have these hybrid DE/LBs - Doom, Moss, Crowder, Reid, Ayers. As a base defense that's close to a ton of run stopping beef combined with some serious speed. In a pass rushing scenario there's some major protection problems that Arid just won't solve.
Base defense - what's that?
Prior to the 70s NFL teams played the same 11 players on defense, in the same formation, for almost the entire game. This was changed largely by George Allen and Tom Landry. Allen was the defensive coordinator for the Bears and later head coach for the Rams and the Redskins. Allen noticed that opposing offenses would often find themselves in obvious passing situations. Knowing that the opponent had to pass, Allen would bring in a 5th defensive back or "nickel" back. (He actually stole this idea form the Eagles, but since Allen was the first to make it an integral part of his defensive system he is generally given credit for it).
When Allen coached the Redskins, Tom Landry would face his nickel defense at least twice a year. Landry countered the nickel with the Shotgun formation and 3 wide receivers. Allen countered with the Dime back, etc. Soon every team in the league was using nickel and dime packages. By the late 80s situational substitutions, special player packages and formations were the rule. Some teams, like the Bengals and Bills resorted to no-huddle offenses to keep these situational defenses from being deployed.
Today, situational defenses are still the norm. Most teams have packages for obvious run situations, obvious passing situations, red-zones, etc. Still, every team has a basic package that they tend to resort to more than others, their base package or base defense. Teams will use their base defense on 1st and 10 or other essentially balanced down-and-distance combinations such as 2nd and 5-to-7 yards to go. But when discussing the Broncos, or any other team, it's helpful to remember that teams only use their base defense about 40% of the time. The rest of the time they are in one of their specialty packages. Hence a 4-3 defense may look like a 3-4 in certain situations. If you watched closely, the Steelers were often in a defense that looked like a 4-3 many times during the Super Bowl.
So Where Does Boss Play?
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Boss winds up on the PUP list, but that's not the point. With the 5-2 concept I envision, the Broncos can show a bewildering array of different fronts with creative substitutions. Back the DE/LBs off the line and you have a traditional 3-4 look. Pull either of the DE/LBs for a true LB and you have a 4-3. Pull the NT or a DT and you have a different 4-3 look. The combinations are almost endless. Who does the offense block in pass protection? Add in some zone blitzes (Thomas already has 2 INTs in his career) and the challenges become even greater. Suddenly all those tweeners aren't misfits - they're assets.
When you think about it, the very moves the MSM has criticised start to make sense.
A special thanks to hoosierteacher for his assistance with this article.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Wow! Totally awesome!
For someone like me who knows precious little about the thinking behind the plays, this was great.
My hats off to you swg, and a hearty thank you!!
This really helps me better understand the moves that have been made.
(and rec’d btw)
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Thanks!
What a great post! My question is whether this type of scheme is similar to the defense NE often uses (I particularly remember them using this against the Colts on many occasions) in which they have several players (LBs, I think) standing up near the line of scrimmage before the snap, disguising their intent to blitz, drop back into coverage, engage blockers, etc. It seems highly effective against QBs that excel at pre-snap reads (such as Peyton Manning), and I was wondering what might be the similarities/ differences between this type of scheme and the 5-2. Thanks again for the post!
NE doesn’t run a 5-2 so much, though Belichick does like to play hybrid players at ROLB like McGinest and Thomas. Baltimore very much resembled it last year with the way they use Suggs and Jackson.
The other piece you are describing, disguising coverages, both NE and SD do very well. If you watched the playoffs SD drove Manning nuts by waiting until after Manning had audibled before shifting into their defense. I don’t know why Indy never came out and tried to catch them in a quick count.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 29, 2009 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I seem to recall that they did...
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that Manning hit Wayne for a TD when Cromartie was looking to the sidelines for the defensive call. Regardless, the Colts could have capitalized on the Charger’s lack of a play call more than they did…
By the way – great article! It does a great job of explaining the potential for this year’s defense.
They certainly caught SD
with their pants down on that play.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions
great, thanks
it seems that the 5-2 would have some of the same benefits of disguise as a zone blitz scheme? would you say that there might be some similarities?
lets separate the concepts
the 5-2 is a system and a formation. The Ravens run something similar to what I’ve described. Zone blitz is a scheme to bring pressure while maintaining coverage. Some DCs, like Dick LeBeau, use a lot of tricks like shifts and alignments to disguise their blitzes (and their coverages).
I expect Nolan to emphasize a pressure defense. He may or may not base it on the zone blitz though I’m sure there will be some zone blitz plays. I am certain that he will use every trick in his book to disguise his blitzes and his coverages. All teams do.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
time to watch some Ravens
thanks for the insight, SWG. I think I’ll go watch some tape of the Ravens on NFL rewind (didn’t really catch any of their games until the playoffs) to try to see some of the tendencies of the 5-2
Tweeners
Excellent slowwhiteguy! I asked HT in a comment earlier this week if Nolan might try some shenanigans with flex defense of hybrid players altering the look almost play by play or series by series. Sounds like you’ve been thinking along the same lines. Rec’d
Thanks - This Says It All
rec
For a moment consider what a base 5-2 defense would look like: NT – Fields and maybe Thomas or Powell; DT they have Peterson, Thomas, Clemmons, McBean, etc. Inside LB they have Davis, DJ, Larson, Woodyard. And on the outside they have these hybrid DE/LBs – Doom, Moss, Crowder, Reid, Ayers. As a base defense that’s close to a ton of run stopping beef combined with some serious speed. In a pass rushing scenario there’s some major protection problems that Arid just won’t solve.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
+ 1 on that one.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 1, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Fantastic post SWG!!
This makes total sense. This scheme will utilize our players and present some major headaches for the opposing offenses. I like having the tweeners on the field – they are the right size to utilize their speed and their size effectively. I’ll bet Nolan is chomping at the bit to get started.
You have done some awesome posts. I saved the “What the Heck is a Hybrid”. Thanks!
I also enjoyed the history. I have been following this stuff for close to 45 years. This fills some holes.
Magnificent job SWG!
Highly, highly rec’d!
I used to think of myself as the Xs and Os guy at MHR. But now, I’m thrilled to read articles like this one from so many gifted writers. Now, I can not only share a little about the game, but I can come here to learn so much myself.
SWG, MHR is blessed to have folks like you and others that do research and put up such well written posts. It seems like there are more professors at MHR than students now, and I’m just one of many. It’s a privilege to be here with so many good friends and fellow football fans.
A big Mile High Salute to you. Your dissertation is approved, and you are now a Doctor of Philosophy in Football arts and sciences. Congratulations.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
Thanks HT
you’re still the dean of the college in my book
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 29, 2009 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I was getting at this in Monday's ST&NO
A hybrid 3-4 plays a lot like a 5-2, and I agree that that is what I think the Broncos will resemble this season. Great stuff SWG, definitely rec’d
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
The idea was rolling around for a while
then when I remembered that Nolan was LB coach for Mecklinberg and Fletcher it all kind of came together. Plus with more teams going to 2-TE sets it just makes sense.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 29, 2009 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Crowder and Moss
I’m really intrigued to see if these two players are really talented and have simply been in the wrong position/system or if they need more experience to compete at the pro level. Or maybe they really don’t have the talent. Let’s put them in the best position to succeed and see what happens.
FWIW
I think Moss was underrated as a DE. I tink he would do great in a 4-3, given some time. I think Crowder is good, not great. I’m glad to have them both, and curious to see how they’ll fit in the hybrid.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on May 30, 2009 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Make sure not to mention this over at the DP
According to the majority of (self-described) “football savvy” posters over there, the Broncos have done nothing — nothing — to address the defensive front.
Don’t even mention Fields. He’s horrible. Powell, Baker, Peterson? Scrubs.
In fact, the only thing that could have saved us was either drafting both Orakpo and Brace, or moving up to take Raji.
The improvements to the secondary matter not; without a pass rush, having good corners and safeties won’t help. And blitzing doesn’t count as bringing pressure. And because Ayers, Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, Reid, et al., suck as players, they won’t provide any relief at OLB.
In short, the best thing to do is despair.
The second best thing to do? Tweet Jamie Dukes and bash the Broncos right along with him. Because he feels your pain.
by JeffG on May 29, 2009 6:36 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Multiplied by Infinity
classic comment Jeff!!!
I’m thinking all these serious thoughts – reading this post and it’s comments, thinking about logistics, history, theory, football ethics in general, etc. – and your comment was not only (conveniently) well placed in the responses, but just so unfortunately true and to the point that I just had to elaborately appreciate it. There. Thanks, good to actually laugh out loud like that (It’s cool how often that happens here at MHR)!
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a turn : )
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on May 29, 2009 9:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Where is the RMNews when you need it!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 1, 2009 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Newspaper?
Who reads the newspaper anymore? So-called columnists earning money for nothing most of the time. I’m really kind of glad McD doesn’t give them much because you see what floundering scrambling superficial efforts they come up with. Hail MHR!
Thanks for the history/tactics lesson SWG!
It seems like the common denominator is flexibility and unpredictability, making the O read and react to the D creates opportunities for busted plays and turnovers. You mentioned Rex Ryans Ravens D’s where do they fall in this schematic? Almost forgot definitely rec’d.
"as in football so in life"
Wow,
this is an awesome post for any football fan, not just Bronco diehards. Very nice work. Rec’d.
Moreno in 2009! - Check
Taylor Mays in 2010!
Don't know what to say!
Awesome post SWG! I am so looking forward to this season. Have so many things to look for now. Between you an HT I have learned so much. I have been watching the broncos since I could crawl and I am as excited now as I have ever been! Keep up the good work.
Great post, SWG,
I feel like a kid in an idea candy shop coming here to MHR. In the past I only had the vaguest concepts of what was going on on the playing field, but thought I had a general grasp. Even then I bragged to my Japanese friends about how much more complicated American football was than the “other” football. After so many years I am finally really learning a little of what’s really going on right before my eyes.
But the really great and interesting thing is that at exactly the same time that I hooked up with MHR and started to study this stuff with the great postings by SWG, Hoosier and all the others, the Pat Bowlen decides that he’s going to go the smart route to win football. Shanahan was never “slow,” but I felt he was getting overly conservative and, well, tired, in his last few years with the Broncos. Defensively it was becoming painfully obvious. But even offensively – and for as little as I actually understood the details of things – even to my mind the play-calling lacked creativity and zip. Now, just as I am peeling back the layers and getting deeper into the heart of the strategy and tactics, with the help of all of you, I think all of us are seeing the beginnings of a new, smarter era for the Broncos. I don’t see this as just a transition from one coach to another, but truly a transition to a new and very different kind of football team.
We had to break a couple of eggs to make this new and intrigueing omelet, but unlike those posters who can’t take their eyes of the eggshells lying on the counter, I am sitting at the breakfast table, fork in my hand, and my mouth is watering!!!!!!
Go, Broncos!
by dwinjapan on May 29, 2009 8:43 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL... Have to give a Big Plus to that one as well.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 1, 2009 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
One question
Uh, just to show how ignorant I am…… How do you recommend a post? Just say “rec’d” somewhere, or is there a button I push or something? I feel like I should borrow SWG’s moniker for a minute here. LOL
Me thinks......
HT and SWG should each send a well edjucated, well thought out E-mail to our friend Pork Chop just so we can see how he reacts. I think it would be something like……ummmm, uhhhh, slurrrrp, sluuurp duh uh huh. So many sports writers today are afraid to move away from the “msm” way of thinking that they would not know what to do with you two:()
Excellent work SWG
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
The horror, the horror!
Props SWG! Much has been posted at this site in regards to the versatility & deception that will be employed on the offensive side of the ball, but to date no one has quite been able to put their finger on whats going to transpire defensively. You have deduced what I felt but could not articulate. This 09 version of the Broncos will be tasteless, colorless, & odorless, but highly lethal in all 3 phases of the game. Thanks for the vision. Googleplex Rec’d.
"He can take his'n n beat your'n, or he can take your'n n beat his'n." Florida A&M Coach Jake Gaither on Alabama Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant.
Great stuff, SWG
I went back and looked up the T formation – great review – and I thought that I’d print a link to the site. There’s also an article in today’s denverbroncos.com talking about using Woodyard and all the different options that they’re looking at. He’s a young man who will give us a lot over the next few years. He’s young, talented and hungry with a great attitude and the formations talked about in this article could go a long way to helping him be successful. 10 tackles a game isn’t hay.
This article (SWG’s) gives a wonderful perspective on some of the things that we might be starting to expect from the D. I noticed that another article on denverbroncos.com today stated that Ronnie Fields is taking 1st string NT reps and talked about how much he likes the position and likes playing for Nolan. In all of the wonderful uproar about Coach McDaniels, the love that his players have for Nolan has perhaps been under-reported. I look forward to the season more and more. I understand that a team undergoing this much change may not be in the playoffs, but I seriously wouldn’t underestimate this squad.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Nolan
I keep hearing through the grapevine how much the defense loves Nolan’s smarts and strategy. Not that he’s a Slowik or anything LOL.
And I LOVE the connection to our storied past
that Nolan brings. And as much as people are talking about the Patriot way, Nolan has Baltimore D blood in him.
I was just watching Broncos: The Complete History last night and all that amazing footage going back to our very first victory against Boston, how we endured years of gutter performances, and how through a succession of coaches we built ourselves into 77’s championship team. It really put into perspective, from a 5280-foot view, how the team evolved over time. Coaches change, rosters ebb and flow, but every now and then you get a fresh lease on life with your best players in a truly new philosophy, filled with great promise and potential. I’m eager to see how this all comes together.
Great post, SWG! You already had 29 recs but I’m giving you one more.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 30, 2009 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions
You know how excellent a post you produced - but
I really dig the subtle –
“So Denver’s gonna run a high school defense?
No we did that last year."
And as everyone else has done – THANK YOU!!!!As per usual, another of MHR’s (however many) in a billion ‘residents’ enlightens the (expletive deleted) outta me ; )
The ONLY criticism I can offer is it’s Karl Mecklenburg, and Spencer Larsen – as opposed to Mecklinburg and Larson, respectively, but I’m almost 100% that everyone here knows that and this is why no one pointed it out….. Or that it was such a bad-a$$ post, everyone has more class than me by not mentioning it(?)
laughing out loud, not like it matters, my point is supposed to be positive and appreciative, so I hope it only comes off that way.
Again, awesome post, thanks again!!!!
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a turn : )
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on May 29, 2009 9:38 PM MDT reply actions
SWG, Thanks!
Amazing post! I’ve been dying to hear more about the 5-2 with reference to the 3-4 b/c Rex Ryan always seems to mention the 5-2 when talking about his scheme and learning from his father. Your piece really puts all that into perspective. Thanks and I hope to hear more on the benefits of these hybrid, tweeners and the use of the 3-4. Amazing stuff!
Don't tell the MSM
but the Ravens essentially ran a 5-2 last year using Suggs and Johnson as DE/LB hybrids
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions
SWG....awesome article mate. Right on the money!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
thanks for doing this
Really interesting stuff and well written. On a site with lots of wonderful, insightful posts, this is the best post I’ve read.
I always saw the 5-2 formation on one of the football video games I play and wondered why it had become extinct. Now I know it hasn’t, just misunderstood and mislabeled.
I, too, have wondered where Boss Bailey fits in. And I keep coming back to the notion that he doesn’t. I just hope he doesn’t represent too much of a financial burden.
Regardless, great post.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on May 30, 2009 9:36 AM MDT reply actions
Boss
he seems to be an artifact from Shanahan’s love affair with speed. But the defensive staff must have seen something there for him to have survived the purge. I see him as mostly depth but he is a pretty expensive backup.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions
This may sound silly...
But I think it might help to keep him around because brother Champ Bailey’s contract is up soon. Don’t want to kick his brother out just before contract time, do we? Boss just seems so darned injury prone. He could be terrific, but he can’t stay on the field!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on May 30, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Makes more sense then you think
I’m not sure Boss sees the field as a starter, but at the least he will be around through pre-season to keep Champ happy. If Boss can not recover enough from his injuries by the end of pre season, then I could see him getting cut, or goes on IR as SWG intimated in one of his comments. If he is healthy, a situational player at best.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
I am not sure that they will try to keep Champ.
I know that sounds like blasphemy, but I have a theory. I certainly love Champ, and more than any other Bronco I want him to leave the Broncos with a ring. However, I wonder if the team wants to put its money elsewhere. The Pats haven’t been willing to pay Asante Samuel and they traded Ellis Hobbs. I wonder if this reflects their philosophy, or those trades were necessary because they just couldn’t fit their contracts in. Acquiring Champ seemed to have to do with the defensive system that Shanahan wanted to impliment. I am sketchy on the details, but with the Tampa 2 it seemed like a guy like Champ allowed them to consistently play a safety in the box. And it worked in 2005 when they had a decent amount of talent on the defense. However, the current defensive scheme seems to place the emphasis on generating pressure with the front 7 while the corners play zone. These types of corners appear to be easier to come by. Hence, they might be more willing to do without Champ and his contract than we appreciate. Anyway, this is just a theory that I have been mulling over.
by Orange Crush II on May 31, 2009 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
I Wouldn't Be Surprised
I would not at all be surprised if they don’t keep him too long based on the money involved.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
right idea, wrong specifics
…but with the Tampa 2 it seemed like a guy like Champ allowed them to consistently play a safety in the box….
Tampa-2 defenses are absolutely not what Coyer ran, but you are right about a different system potentially changing the value for Champ. First let me emphasize that all teams play man, cover-2, cover-3, sky, cloud, etc. coverages at times… the question is what is the “typical/standard” coverage.
Coyers 2005 system was more a blitz-heavy man-coverage defense, which put a premium on the lock-down man coverage that Champ provided. This allowed Coyer to roll protection and/or Blitz with the freed up safety. My guess is Coyer blitzed more often than perhaps he would have otherwise, because champ gave him the free defender, and even then we had marginal passrush from the front 4.
Tampa-2 systems are zone-D systems where the MLB plays deep between the safeties, but in the classic tampa-2 coverage, both safety’s stay deep while the CBs play press coverage in the short zone. It was designed to impinge on the short passes and timing routes of the West Coast offenses. Tampa-2 Defenses rely on good tacklers (to stop YAC), but less cover/speed at the CB position… as such, tampa-2 CBs are cheaper, and often times are completely worthless once given more traditional cover responsibilities. Jason David’s ineptitude in NOLA after leaving Indy a few years ago is a great example.
NE’s defense is also a zone-defense system, but because there are 4 LBs with the potential to cover short zones, there isn’t the same emphasis as in the tampa-2 to keep the CBs pressing the short zone. While cover-3 and other cloud/sky coverages are used by tampa-2 teams, my guess is they are more typical in NE’s system than in a classic “tampa-2” like the Dungy coaching-tree ran.
But on the bigger point you are right. To the extent that Denver moves to more of a zone-D system, having that lock-down man CB is less abolutely critical. This could mean Denver may be less willing to spend the big bucks necessary to keep Champ.
However, having the OPTION of having a lock-down CB like Champ or Nmandi is a huge benefit in flexibility for the defense. NE really wanted to keep Samuel, but just wasnt willing to match the absurd cash Philly gave. In terms of Champ’s next contract, I think the bigger question will be whether Champ is old enough/loses a step so that he no longer is the reliable “lock down” option that would justify the huge salary he is likely to demand.
Hoosierteacher or one of the other X’s and O’s guy should feel free to correct me if I’ve misrepresented anything in my understanding of the tampa-2 vs. man vs. other zone systems.
by cjfarls on May 31, 2009 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
a look at the big picture
HT said we gotta look at this like…from a totally big picture thingie…cuz…like…with the cap…you cant have everything…you cant buy all the steaks in the meat section…you gotta buy hamburger helper sometimes…so you gotta be like totally careful in how you spend your money
in new england…like…they spend lots on the o-line and d-line…and lots less everywhere else except for tom terrific…and they let dbs go all the time…and keep going out and getting less expensive ones…and…wow…like they do that for most of there team
So…wow…thats kinda what is gonna need to start happeningone of these days with the broncos…all those rookie contracts are gonna come due or people are gonna hold out (sorta like a guy who fights with…well…nevermind…not this post)…people like clady and harris and maybe some of our dline picks are gonna need to be paid…and…like i remember someone saying Mike kinda let our dline guys leave and not pay them…while we were paying champ and dre lots of money and stuff.
sooooo…does this mean we have to be like the patriots because Jedi used to be one…nope…its just…like a totally different way of doing something than the way Mike tried to do it…and Jedi saw it work in new england…and he saw it not work in denver
so…like…what would you do? keep doing what didnt work…or try something that did work somewhere else…and hope…like…you totally got what was being done in new england…and knew every teeny tiny little detail…and understood totally everything…and so…omg…like what do i know…you guys are the brainiacs
MHR...and proud of it!
lol...maybe a translation
1. Mike paid lots for cornerbacks…and let defensive linemen leave when there rookie contracts were up
2. the d-line fell apart…and our way expensive dbs couldnt cover
3. the patriots pay pretty high for o-line and d-line…and lots less for the d-backs
4. we have people like clady and harris and maybe d-line people who are gonna be way expensive
5. Jedi can pick either to do what Mike did (failed) or maybe try what the patriots do
6. whatever he picks…i hope its not just copy cat without knowing what is really going on
MHR...and proud of it!
Like...
I get that!
And yes, over paying for several skilled positions at the expense of the defensive line was not a good way to go. On theother hand, with Bailey taking away a full side of the field on pass plays, I would just pay him the big bucks. Moving forward (because of this draft and the last, as well as the “best player available” mentality), I think we can save some money and have a better balanced team moving forward.
Like, way good thoughts!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 1, 2009 2:00 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LMAO
A hearty laugh is good for the Bronco Fan and all we have to do to get it is log on to MHR> comments rec’d.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 1, 2009 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for the correction.
I am not sure why I had Tampa-2 on the brain. Maybe because Bates is in Tampa (but not running the T-2). Obviously, Al Wilson was great at a lot of things, but coverage wasn’t one of him. Not exactly a good scheme for him.
On a separate issue, I am also wondering if Champ will want to return. If we haven’t improved to the point that we are competing for a championship, he probably will want to go elsewhere.
I also wonder if Boss would consider resigning himself to a backup role. Of course, from our stand point he would have to take a pay cut, but I am not sure how many teams would be interested in giving him big money these days. He would stand a better chance at staying healthy, and could be valuable as a role player, especially on downs that we switch into 4-3 mode.
by Orange Crush II on Jun 1, 2009 12:30 AM MDT up reply actions
You are correct.
Coyer’s system was called “show blitz”. It was based on the concept of multiple players “showing” (or indicating) that they would blitz on many plays. Most of the time, the players would drop back into man or zone (the two most common variations of show blitz are “man – show blitz” and “zone – show blitz”). But here and there, the team would bring the house on an actual blitz.
Denver didn’t run the Tampa-2 or any variation of the cover two system under Coyer. The error in thinking (thanks to a lazy media) is that many follks assume that 1) two deep safeties indicates a cover two (not true), and 2) that the Tampa-2 is the same as cover 2 (again, not true).
The only thing I might change in your statement is that I believe Nolan has indicated that the outside corners will still primarily play man coverage. This is, of course, subject to what we actually end up seeing on game day.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 1, 2009 1:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for clarification HT
Any guess as to whether Nolan’s statement on the CB’s playing man is because we HAVE Champ? Basically, it seems like the simple fact of having Champ gives the flexibility to run more man coverage… but that if/when we no longer have Champ, it would be a relatively logical transition to more the typical NE zone?
Of course, Nolan also paid up for Nate Clements in SF, so perhaps he really does think that a lock-down man cover CB is a key part to his defensive schemes.
Do we now what Nolanran in B-more? I guess that likely was the age of McCallister in his heydey, so they had a pretty good cover guy as well at the time.
I think we'll continue to use man coverage.
Bailey (and his salary) would be wasted in zone. He’s just too good. And when he moves on, I would guess “man coverage” because of McCallister, Clements, etc. It could still go either way, but not while Bailey is in town.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 1, 2009 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Couldn't Bailey be used
in a pattern zone system instead of a spot zone?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 1, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
He could really be used in any way a DC wanted to.
Given his incredible coverage abilities, I would put him in man coverage on every play. I wouldn’t even try to disguise his coverage, blitz him, anything. Just put him on the biggest receiving threat and forget about him. Oversimplistic, but that’s just me.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2009 6:53 AM MDT up reply actions
If Moss and Dumervil can both move in space and cover ever marginally well
…their respective wingspans can make up a lot of ground in coverage.
Here’s a question I have, though: if Moss is still in the mix (he seems to me the prototypical hybrid), why shop him around for a seventh round pick?
Or was that story bogus?
Good question...
never really heard much about that rumor after day 2 of the draft. Makes you wonder what’s up. Between Doom, Moss, and Ayers it’s hard to guess how the rush lb position ends up. After the trade rumor, you’d suspect Moss will have to do more to impress the new staff. Hate to see them give up on Moss before he gets a legit chance to fit in the new defense.
Taylor Mays in '10
Jeff
It’s just my opinion, but I look at the Moss rumor the same way that I look at the Scheffler rumor. Do you really want to tell me that no team wants a tight end with WR capabilities? If they really wanted to move him, he’d be gone. In fact, there were stories in the media this week admitting that Scheffler and McDaniels put their differences behind them quite a while ago
If they wanted to move Moss for a 7th, he’d be gone. Rumors abound. Few of them panned out this offseason. Do you remember the ‘confirmed’ rumors that Shanahan was going to coach KC? And Dallas? Look at all the players who we ‘knew’ tested positive for drugs at Combine – but didn’t. Sometimes we’ve been able to nail down who starts them, often not, but until it happens, it’s just another rumor.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
athough...
…it sounds like thus far, Reid has been getting the majority of time at OLB/DE.
According to the DP, the front three as of now is Peterson, Fields, and McBean. McDaniels says he doesn’t want D-lineman who just take up blockers; rather, but wants players who can stunt and apply pressure from those sports.
— Which one would think would really benefit Marcus Thomas.
Still early, though.
I'm sure the best will play...
but I’m also hoping for Thomas and Powell to excel in the new system, and I’m pulling for them a little more than Peterson and McBean.
My picks for the line would be:
Powell – Fields – Thomas – starting
R.Davis – Baker – Pedescleaux – all getting in some rotations by mid-season
Taylor Mays in '10
SWG
Just watched the Ravens at Miami and saw them move from the 3-4 to a 5-2 and from there to a 4-3 over. Thanks for all the teaching, my friend. You’re such a benefit to the members. And just from me – Thank you!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Confuse is an understatement!
the Ravens try to create havoc, to disrupt the the offense is doing and force the offense to adjust. Sort of like what Collier and Nolan used to do with the Orange Crush II.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks Bear...
I love Xs and Os but do not have your talent for personnel writeups. All the writers here at MHR make an awesome team.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Excellent post SWG! Highly rec'd.
I can’t wait for training camp!
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Hey SWG
If you are going to continue to post such excellent articles, may I suggest you e mail them to a member of the staff to post(with your by line of course). I ’m thinking that this is the only way to use the “Buzz” feature, and I really think this article could be shared with the public for learning purposes and also promote MHR. Just a thought.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
by KaptainKirk on May 30, 2009 2:27 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the complement
I think TSG can promote a post to the front page if he deems it worthy.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 30, 2009 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
SWG Great Post
Thank you for the insight and thank to HT for his help as well.
I really am looking forward to seeing our defense this season.
A side note:
It will be interesting to see Phil Simms’ take on the Broncos and what inside info his son tells him. ;-)
"when they find the center of the universe, i know quite a few people that are going to be upset it isn't them" dmitchell624
Great info here!
As with most high school squads, when I was in HS we ran a variation of the Oklahoma 5-2 . . . . Thankfully we were blessed with enough athletes to make sure we were able to cover the passing game as well, but since about 80% of the plays run against us were on the ground, THAT aspect wasn’t needed so much. Oh, and we never, EVER blitzed linebackers, unless you consider the defensive ends to be linebackers . . . which in our system, they clearly weren’t.
A good thing to have with a 5-2 (turned 3-4) is interchangeable safeties . . . ones where you could trust them to be able to cover each the strong side and the weak side effectively well. In our system in high school, our SS played up, but if the offense shifted the SS would play back with the FS moving up. Obviously this only applies to obvious run situations (rarely would an NFL team need to have 8 in the box unless it’s short-yardage, in which case you may have 9), but it’s nice to have the ability to interchange when needed.
"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields
If you watch the Ravens
they will use their safeties interchangeably at times. Although no one is really interchangeable with Ed Reed. The hybrid DE/LBs should be able to provide better coverage than the typical HS DE. Good comment.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 31, 2009 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions
The few times I've seen them . . .
I have noticed that. GREAT to have if you’re going to play eight in the box on obvious run situations, and they have to be athletic (and smart) enough to drop into coverage at the last second . . . and as we all know, they are DEFINITELY both smart and athletic enough to do that.
"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields
Thanks so much, SWG
I definitely don’t have the X’s and O’s straight in my head, so a clearly written post like this helps a lot. Rec’d!
"From the get-go, we targeted a certain type of player: tough, smart, competitive, versatile, a good person that loves football and wants to win." -Coach McDaniels
by Colorado_Kitten on May 30, 2009 7:28 PM MDT reply actions
"Clearly written"
coming from a journalism major I’ll take that as a high complement.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 31, 2009 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Cool!
I wasn’t sure how interesting the members would find and X&O article.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 31, 2009 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Xs and Os always seem to go over well.
Probably because you don’t find many real Xs and Os articles anywhere.
Very well deserved front page. Congrats!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on May 31, 2009 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Reading about Xs and Os brought me to MileHighRepost and I know that I’m not alone
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Most excellent!
I love it when I think I have a pretty good grasp of things and then somebody who REALLY knows …makes me even smarter!!!!
Thank You!
The Nolan hire has been (for me) the one thing in this off season that I can rally my hope around! And not just for the defenses sake but FAR more importantly for McD’s sake! I love to hope that he has (hopefully) already overcome Shanny’s inability to trust in someone elses expertise!
If our offense is a bit worse and our defense a bit better…. well, I guess we’ve got something to grow from eh?
Go Broncos!!!
Thanks Guru
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Thanks SWG
I understand more of what I can expect to see from our defense this season. Even though we have all these “tweeners” it seems they will allow us to be more flexible in how our defense sets up on a peticular play. Looks like this will allow the players to really be put in spots that are suited for them based on who we are playing against each week.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
NBA Finals: Lakers v. Magic. Game 1 June 4th
yes!
Great post and some excellent ideas. Of course you could flip the 5-2 to a 2-5 Fields and Thomas with Ayres, Doom and Reid with two traditional ‘backers. Who comes, who goes, who blitzes, who sits?
Also, I vaguely remember coming to this 5-2 conclusion myself in a comment at some point on some post. Still, that’s like infinite monkeys sitting at infinite typewriters
If you watch the Steelers
they often go to a 2-4 look in nickle situations.
by SlowWhiteGuy on May 31, 2009 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions
Really great thought SWG....
As I’ve said before we have been drafting ‘attack’ type defensive players and slotchin’ them in a ‘Hold-Your-Ground’ for two years. I think we are going to be wonderfully surprised with players the ‘Hold Scheme’ shut out. I predict, for some reason, That Carlton Powell will end up being our nose tackle—maybe not starting this year—but he will…stuffing any type of run attempt up the middle. Marcus Thomas will end up being a DE, creating all sorts of confusion and havic for QB’s, and (my biggest stretch of all) Jarvis Moss will have a breakout year challenging Doom as the teams sack leader.
The options of swooning a 5-2 or 3-4 in teams faces (changing at will) has me swooning and thinking Super Bowl. I’m really excited about this year.
.
.
Playoffs here we come!! Go Broncos!!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Hey Guy..,.
excellent stuff! Buzzed and recomended! These thoughts have me excited about this year, because now I am able to see that the direction the Broncos are (could be) going on Defense is one that will (IMO) bring a Killer change, and we all know how much we need that! Thanx a bunch for the great read.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Me too metal.....I am really looking forward to having a defense again.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Orange Crush anyone?
Don’t mind if I do. Great article. Thanks, SWG.
We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
I'm late
SWG, thanks so much for the history and Xs/Os lesson. Articles like this and HT’s MHRU are the reasons I started reading MHR in the first place. Brilliant stuff and of course, Rec’d.
Yes thanks for the insight SWG!
I also want to thank everybody else for thier comments and input. REC’d
Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!
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