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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Things I want to get off my mind..... Part Deux

 “Franchise QBs”

Setting the Broncos back 10 years

The hard schedule ensuring a losing season

 

I think one of the most over used phrases I have seen this off season is the tag "franchise player"  I mean it has become ridiculous and its one that no one even wants to qualify anymore.  For example the media has crowned Sanchez and Stafford both as "franchise" QBs.  This is, of course, absurd.  Neither one of them has played a down in the NFL yet.  They have a long way to go before they are worthy of that label.   Do they have potential?  Of course they do.  So did Ryan Leaf and many others before him.  But they are not, as of today, "franchise" players.  And neither is Jay Cutler

Star-divide

I guess I should start by defining what I mean by franchise player.  Like I said, I think the term is overused and abused by the MSM and others these days.  To me, a franchise player is one that is so good, they bring absolute stability to a position of importance to a team in such a way that they raise the level of play of that team, make the rest of the team better around them and provide a solid stable foundation that allows a team to be developed and built around them. 

Is Cutler better than the other QBs selected in the first round with him?  Yes, to date that is not even arguable.  Does Cutler possess all the tools and talent to be a franchise player in this league.  Without a doubt, he does.  I was looking forward to watching him grow into that role someday.  Is he there right now?  No, he isn't and I see no evidence that supports the claims that he is, or was.

Statistics are a record of individual accomplishment.  Results are a record of success.  Cutler has shown he can provide statistics, in at least one system.  So far, his results have been luke warm at best. Two franchise QBs that we are all familiar with, John Elway and Dan Marino.  Of the two Marino had the better statistics in most categories.  Elway had more championships and wins.   Later in his career Elway even produced some of the stats in a better system.

But did Cutler's year last year do anything to earn the tag of franchise player?  I don't think so.  Let's look at what he accomplished in comparison to some others in the league last year.  Cutler started 16 games, threw for over 4500 yards and led a team that scored 370 points.  Sounds impressive doesn't it?  It must since the MSM keeps repeating those numbers like they say all there is to say.  Chicago fans think he is going to bring those numbers with him to Chicago, so they keep repeating them as well.

But when you look at all the numbers, I don' know.  They just don't look that special to me.  I think he still has a long way to go before his presence commands the franchise tag.  Compare if you will the Broncos number 2 rated offense for yards gained with the number 3 rated offense for yards gained, the Houston Texans. I find it very interesting that Kubiak's version of the Shanahan system netted results this close.  And just for fun, I am throwing in Denver's statistics from the 2000 season when we were quarterbacked by Brian Griese (10 games) and Gus Ferrotte (6 games).

Team Stats:    Rank    yards   plays    yds/play           Points NFL rank for points scored

Denver  2008    2          6333    1019    6.2                   370                  16

 Houston 08     3          6113    1019    6.0                   366                  17

Denver 2000   2          6554    1115    5.8                   485                  2

Now ask someone to make the case that we had a franchise QB and we will be forever screwed until we run out and over pay for yet another media defined franchise QB with a number one draft pick.

If you are still not convinced, look at the numbers for the individual QBs  for each team those years. 

Player              Yds      comp%            TD%    int%     ANY/A

Cutler 08         4526    62.3                 4.1       2.9       6.2

Schaub 08       3043    66.1                 3.9       2.6       6.4

Griese 2000    2688    64.3                 5.7       1.2       7.2

Griese was a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB after that 2000 season.

And I don't remember the media bemoaning the release of a "Pro Bowl Quarterback" When Griese left town.

Now none of this denigrates the tremendous up side and skills of Cutler.  He is, obviously, strong armed and accurate down field.  He moves well and throws exceptionally well on the run.  He can create plays and he sees the whole field, when he looks at least. 

He does not however, always make good decisions with the ball.  He often does not check down or look for other receivers.  This was evidenced by the repeated throws he threw to Marshall into double and even triple coverage when Marshall was having difficulty gaining any separation.  He looks for his favorites sometimes to the detriment of finding open receivers or those that have one on one coverage. 

His results do not yet reflect his ability and his potential.  In Chicago, we will see how he handles being in a run first offense with a weak line and average receivers at best.  He will come to appreciate what Elway had here for all those years when he was winning games with a weak supporting cast and a coach who insisted on putting him in 3rd and long situations on a regular basis.  If he develops the ability to actually win and produce in that system, then he might finally be worthy of this franchise tag everyone has hung on him.

Well I have talked long enough.  Looks like I will need a part 3.  Sorry guys.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 34 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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Interesting post, I don’t like terms like Franchise or Marquee, especially in football.

I would much rather have terms like Winner.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on May 6, 2009 3:54 PM MDT reply actions  

Alot of posts about stats lately

I agree with you. I’ve always found that difference between good players and great players are great players always find a way to win. The Elway Marino example is great. To me franchise players players are the great players.No one will ever remember the Broncos putting up these numbers because they failed to win. I know nothing about how well the Steelers did or didn’t do last year as stats go, but I do know one thing. They won the Super Bowl, in 5 years the only stat that will be remembered is the W for the superbowl, or unitl Bshrout makes a trivia post for the most passing yards in a season from a Bronco.

by diviesti on May 6, 2009 3:55 PM MDT reply actions  

Good post.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????

by boydy2669 on May 6, 2009 4:31 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree but with a qualification...

What I think most Denver Fans(if they are being honest) felt that Jay was well on his way to being a “franchise” QB and for all intents and purposes he was this franchises QB. The other thing is Denver Bronco fans have been pretty critical of QB’s since Elway, Since you mentioned Griese I want to point out some stats between him and Elway after 3 years

QB AY/A YPG QB Rating
Elway 4.9 189 67.3
Griese 6.1 224 85.6

You see on paper Brian looks a lot better, a lot lot better but Denver didn’t have anyone to compare him to and were willing to give Elway more of a chance. Good thing!!! It is also my opinion that Griese was never the same after Denver, but I did have one thing I didn’t like about Brian as much as I wanted him to succeed, he was just so silent, I mean zero leadership, he didn’t get mad, he didn’t get happy. He was like a robot in the locker room from what I remember

Then compare Cutlers first three years

Cutler 6.5 243 87.1

With those numbers I think a lot of fans saw Cutler (under Shanny) as their new king even if he hadn’t been quite crowned yet. You notice his name isn’t in the ring of fame. But he was vocal and he did reach out to the community. He called out B. Marsh and for what it’s worth I think he showed a lot of guts playing through his sickness and putting up pretty good numbers while not even knowing what was wrong. He did have some maturing to do but I think most Denver Fans would have been ecstatic to see him continue his journey to becoming a franchise QB right here in Denver

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 6, 2009 5:06 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Agreed LWTG....

We saw skills in Cutler…but nothing else to really back it up. All 3 of those QB ratings aint great though by any stretch of the imagination.
As I said before, going to Chicago will be a STEEP learning curve for him, and will eventually become a better QB. His decision making will have to be spot on in Chicago, and he will have to learn to check down in a hurry. He had great behind our O line, and he will miss those days.
It will be interesting to see both cutlers and Ortons QB efficiency at the end of the season, to see how good both these guys really are.
Good post as normal LWTG.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????

by boydy2669 on May 6, 2009 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

When you figure that...

1) No O line or at least like here in Denver
2) Wide outs that are significantly less quality
3) The weather is gonna stink at least 3-4 games a year

The only thing Cutler has going for him is Forte, and I think Knowshon makes that a wash, But you know what? I think it is the perfect fit for Cutler, he wants to be the hero and I think HCMcD hit it on the head when he publicly said " well I hope Cutler doesn’t need his ego stroked" I am pretty sure that is exactly what he said. If it wasn’t over before that quote it certainly was after. I think Cutler saw the writing on the wall that his production was going to go down while playing point guard and he didn’t want any of it. To me that is very very short sighted, he could have had a chance at Tom B.‘s record for TD’s in a season and more. But I disagree with you on one thing, I did see something to back up Cutler’s stat’s it was the swagger of a gunslinger and after Elway I think most fans (not all) liked that and saw him as the next SB QB for the team. We’ll never know, but I am excited to see how the system and Orton does!!!

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 6, 2009 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah mate, great post!

As I said in one of my posts, Chicago is a grave yard for QB’s. Orton being 21-12 behind that O line and with NO WR’s is a bigger deal than any of us know….that record is from sheer guts and perseverance.
Thats my worry with Jay there…..all your points plus the fans that see the Messiah……this will make him or kill him.
Kyle Orton has survived, got better, and he is primed for a quantum leap in performance. Playing in Denver will be a DREAM for him…hes a perfect fit for the system!
Cutler does NOT look like a fit in Chicago, and they need to get him WR in a hurry!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????

by boydy2669 on May 6, 2009 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

There wasn't anything to worship

Chicago has a history of terrible choices of QBs and poor coaching of them. I like Jay, and I expect him to do ‘well’ but it’s the first time in living memory they’ve had someone like him. Orton was just never appreciated. Jay will be, unless he falters.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on May 6, 2009 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Another big if is the OC in Chicago

Will Cutler and his ego make friends with the team and OC or will he stow his baggage and bring an Orton like attitude? Thangs that make ya go hmmmmm
I for one am hoping he will do well and I have to be honest I didn’t really care one way or another about Griese although I was stoked when he was drafted, pedigree and all.

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 7, 2009 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

rocko1 (a Chicago fan)

stated in my post yesterday, the Bronco fans will appreciate Kyle, he’s a good quarter back and he’ll do well. I believe he will too.

by bfree2bronc on May 7, 2009 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Elways early stats are worthless because...

He played for Dan Reeves. No quarterback has ever produced productive stats playing in Reeves system.

As I said above. Elway, 5 Super Bowls and two Super Bowl championships. The first three that he took there had no business being in a Super Bowl. Except for Elway, they didn’t have the talent to be there. A fact exposed in the games themselves.

Cutler may do that too someday. For right now, in the system he was playing in, his numbers were no better that Matt Schaub. The Griese stat is there to show that most any QB can produce stats in the right system. The measure is how many points did they score and how many games did they win.

Cutler has a world of potential, but he also has a ways to go.

"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 2 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987

by AlanC on May 6, 2009 5:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are absolutely right, LWTG,

In the end I think he had to leave, (95% his fault), we’ll do well at QB without him and some good things came out of the trade, (and not just picks, but also instilling in the locker room the philosophy that no one is above the team). But make no mistake, those stats ARE great for JC’s first 3 years and I can only imagine how good Denver’s offense might have been with JC and a great (new and fresh) offensive strategy under McD, (Shanny was getting a bit stale in play calling). So it was a great loss for us, notwithstanding how well he does or doesn’t do in Chicago, but one that McD has intelligently worked to compensate for and I think we will be better than OK in ’09. Go Broncos!

by dwinjapan on May 6, 2009 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Elways first 3

Elways and the Broncos records for the first 3 years

9-7
11-5
13-3

"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 2 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987

by AlanC on May 6, 2009 5:39 PM MDT reply actions  

I was trying to stick to individual stats...

Not team stats, the reason why is I have never really prescribed to the theory that an individual should be the one responsible for the wins or the losses, I think that is a MSM wives tale that sales airtime.
In Kyle Orton’s case he may be 21-12 but he is no more or less responsible for every one of those W’s or L’s than Brian Urlacher or any of the other 22 players on the field. Same with Culter or Elway. Elway was gifted with a pretty good Defense in those years. So until one player plays all 22 positions I just don’t think W/L has anything to do with a players value. Unless he fumbles the ball on the goal line every game and it costs you the game every time. That’s why when you look at Cutler’s three year totals it sure looks like he was a “franchise” QB in the making.

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 6, 2009 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well when the argument is ...

Whether you “need” a franchise QB to win or not and then try to define what a franchise QB is exactly, yes, the team records do mean a great deal. It is the difference in production vs statistics.

Elway was a franchise QB because he found ways to win when others could not. He elevated those around him and made them better than the sum of their parts. He could be having a terrible day and still find a way to win in the 4th quarter. For the most part you are correct that no one player is responsible for wins. But it is the QB who sets the tone for the rest of the offense and either gets his players on board or stands by and watches them mail it in.

Elway’s run of 4th quarter wins attest to his ability to do just that. It also attests in great part to Reeves ability make it necessary. When Reeves was calling the plays, it was a great deal of run twice and then rely on Elway to get the third and long.. But in the 4th quarter, he was taken out of the equation and Elway had a lot more freedom to do his thing, either for clock efficiency or because they were too far behind to use the running game anyway.

So far, Cutler has magnificent days and yet finds ways to lose in the 4th quarter. He is not there yet. Like I said, he may will be someday. But not yet. As Shanahan has said many times, a QB earns his money on third down.

Right now, I would take Elway and several other QBs over Cutler on third down in the 4th quarter. Perhaps someday that will change and he will be the guy. He has all the tools but so far I don’t see it. Instead what I see all too many times is what happened in the 4th quarter of the Buffalo game. That is where he just hasn’t learned to get it done.

"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 2 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987

by AlanC on May 6, 2009 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jay is no slouch in the 4th

This past season, Jay had his highest QB rating during the 4th quarter. A large leap over the previous season where it was his worst (Diabetes control perhaps?).

Of course there are several other QBs I would take over Jay throughout history, but, he will be entering his 3rd seasons as a the full time starter, and should continue to grow. He isnt a legend yet, but, he could have been here in Denver. Now, it looks like he will be one in Chicago.

by draco193 on May 6, 2009 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I wish him well in Chi Town

but from what I’ve heard about the Bears’ OL, I’m afraid he’s going to spend a lot of time on the injured list.

Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.

by Brian Shrout on May 6, 2009 11:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Except the fact

That we signed 3 new Olineman and have our No 1 pick from last year starting this year..thanks for the concern but we now think Jay’s back will be fine and not attract as much dirt as the previous year’s QB…

by tfrabotta on May 7, 2009 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

A 33 year old who hasn't been able to play in two years

because of knee and shoulder injuries. Great injuries for an old O Linemen, right? Its not like he needs good knees or shoulders to play tackle.

A lineman released by the Browns [yippee!] who lost his job last year to Ryan Tucker. Who? The Browns liked him so much they replaced him with your former LT. Some upgrade, huh.

And a rookie with a bad back whose never taken a snap.

Yeah, he’ll be just fine behind an OL that can’t even stay healthy enough to be on the field. This is like the Raiders fans last year claiming they’ll be fine cause they signed Kwame Harris.

"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden

by Randall15 on May 7, 2009 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Kinda like the chicken and the egg!!!

Does a team that wins a lot a franchise QB make or does a Franchise QB make a team that wins a lot. If I am correct that seems to be the question

IMHO one player can make a difference, no question but not even Elway could will the team to 12 straight Superbowls. One game in particular comes to mind to prove the point, Denver vs. KC, Montana era , it was basically a shootout between Elway and Montana, KC was leading with 3-4 minutes left in the game 24-21 Elway is driving down the field and throws a touchdown that is called back on an obvious mistake by the ref’s, they even loose a down, 3rd down and goal on the 7 or so. Elway takes the snap and runs it in for a touchdown. Then Montana gets the ball back with 1:50 or so left in the game and the Denver D goes into a putrid prevent defense and Montana dinks and dunks his way down the field and wins the game with a TD.
In that game I saw Elway be the guy you described but he wasn’t playing defense, so do you saddle him with that lose? Do you put the lose on the DC? Where do you put the blame for the lack of production? Cutler did a very similar thing in last years game with Cleveland if I’m not mistaken, do you give him all the credit for the win? Do you give Eddie Royal all the credit for the trouncing of Oakland last year or does the O-Line get some credit? Does a team need a "Franchise QB to win? Not really but if you look at past Superbowls it is much more likely that you have that a Household type name QB like , Farve/Elway/Montana then a Trent Dilfer but that begs the question does a team that wins a lot a franchise QB make or does a Franchise QB a winning team make?

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 7, 2009 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

OOps I posted too quick

Like I said in a similar discussion with Boydy, the idea is for a Coach to put as many contributing players on the fields as he can to make that team a winner, Cutler was definitely contributing and had become the face of the team or at least split that with Champ. He was quickly becoming a household name so in many ways he was a franchise QB or at least in the mind of many a Denver Fan, although his stock has drastically dropped as a result of the way he handled this situation. In my mind no franchise QB would demand to be traded, at any rate that term “franchise” is so ambiguous that it can really mean so many things. But if I get your biggest point it is, Can Denver win without Cutler? And my resounding answer to that is yes. 31 other teams will have to as well. I for one am excited to see this new Offense and waiting for the first game of the year is like staring at a present all wrapped up and knowing you can’t open it for months.

"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam

by lovewatchinthegame on May 7, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

just goes to show

a team needs 53 players and all the coaches all operating on the same page and performing to their absolute best.

Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.

by Brian Shrout on May 7, 2009 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

one thing that needs to be said

the running game for the 2000 broncos was much better than this year’s that’s accounts for the difference in points scored.

Knowshown in ’09!!!

by bailey disciple on May 6, 2009 6:06 PM MDT reply actions  

Not better

Just better utilized.

2008 rushes a little over 300 attempts for a 4.8 yards per attempt.

2000 rushes a little over 500 attempts for a 4.7 yards per attempt.

Maybe it was the play calling?

"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 2 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987

by AlanC on May 6, 2009 6:58 PM MDT reply actions  

harsh words

see, this is why we need to be able to edit comments! :)

by lolcopter on May 6, 2009 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah

you should have used past tense – he’s gone now

by SlowWhiteGuy on May 6, 2009 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

If shannahan was still here after Jan 1

and cut or traded Jay probably not much would have been said because he would of come out with a paragraph or 2 and explained his justification for doing so (Shanny the Great). But since we went through all the changes (more changes than Obama’s first 100 days) and hired McDaniels the MSM glares its wicked pen toward the trade (I’ll dare you, you young whipper-snapper) of Shanny’s coveted and chosen one. Why the audacity of it…lol 13-3 Baby!!!

by bfree2bronc on May 6, 2009 7:45 PM MDT reply actions  

It would have still caused a large ripple I thnk

And I probably would have been one of the ones screaming the loudest about it.

But the coach didn’t cut him. The owner got rid of an obviously disgruntled player who was not on board with the direction the team was headed.

I didn’t see that Cutler left him any real coice.

"Now we have them where we want them"
-Kieth Bishop - On the Denver 2 yard line, Cleveland Ohio, 1987

by AlanC on May 6, 2009 10:06 PM MDT reply actions  

Talking about franchise players,

Tom Brady is considered the franchise player of NE, yet the Pat’s were considering placing the label on Matt Cassell this year, not knowing if Brady would be able to return. The franchise player is a player you can not do with out, and you build the team around him. Shannahan considered Cutler the franchise player, that’s why he built the offense aroud him, paying little attention to the defense. Was Shanny thiking this kid could out score the opposing teams? I don’t know, but one thing for sure, there are 3 sides to the coin (football team), and if attention is left out on one side, you will lose the toss. Great post. 13-3 Baby!!!

by bfree2bronc on May 7, 2009 8:17 AM MDT reply actions  

The Cassell franchise tag was a concious effort to get more value out of a trade. I think there are league mandated rules that deal with the worth of a franchise player, and because of only receiving a 2nd round for him i believe that they got a compensatory pick from the league because of that trade. I may be talking out of my a** but i do believe that this was the case. Teams do carry more than one franchise player as well, in fact this offseason the title was stamped on Sproles, so SD has two franchise rb’s.

by JALefor on May 7, 2009 8:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

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