Gunslinger vs System QB: Opening a discussion
by Brian Shrout on May 9, 2009 10:46 PM MDT
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PrintIn the post “What does attitude have to do with it” by lovewatchingthegame, broncosmontana raised an intriguing idea:
“I loved the gutsy rocket arm for as long as it worked for us. But I’m not dreading seeing a system guy go to work for us, either. Different strokes, same goal. It would be interesting to break down all of the SuperBowl winning QBs and system and see what history tells us.”
What follows is not intended to be an in-depth analysis of the question, but rather a discussion starter. I’ll leave the in-depth analysis to those members who are far better at it than I. I will not be the least bit offended if anyone tells me I'm in the parking lot rather than the stadium.
For the sake of discussion, I am using the following definitions and data:
“Gunslinger” Quarterback: also referred to as a strong arm, rocket arm, and laser arm. Throws tight spirals. Is a self-assured risk-taker. Has been described as one who is not afraid to “chuck it up there.” Plays aggressively. Will throw into tight coverage on occasion, believing he can complete the pass. Plays on an instinctual and daring basis. Was viewed as the norm prior to the advent of the West Coast Offense. Is superb at intermediate to long range passes, but can throw the short pass when needed.
“System” Quarterback: also referred to as a game-manager, dink and dunk specialist, and more recently, as a point-guard. Emphasizes the touch pass and superb decision-making skills. Is strong in ability to make last second adjustments at the line of scrimmage. Came into vogue with the advent of the West Coast Offense. Focuses more on short to medium range, high completion percentages passes, but is able to throw the long pass when needed.
The data I used was to look at the winning quarterbacks from the last 13 Super Bowls (I was going to use just the last 10, but then decided to include 13 in order to include John Elway and Brett Favre).
Those quarterbacks are: Ben Roethlisberger (won 2), Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady (3), Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, John Elway(2), and Brett Favre.
From what I’ve read and seen, Roethlisberger, Elway and Favre best fit in the category of gunslingers. E. Manning, Brady, P. Manning, Johnson, Dilfer and Warner better fit in the systems category. (Feel free to disagree with this premise)
Here are some things that could be drawn from comparing these two groups of quarterbacks. DISCLAIMER: These are not being advanced as definitive conclusions, but rather a preliminary reading of the data. Alternative points of view are more than welcome.
1)8 of the last 13 Super Bowls were won by systems quarterbacks and 8 of the last 10 Super Bowls were won by systems quarterbacks.
2)Gunslinger QB’s completed 74-129 passes for 1084 yards in 5 games. This represents a 57.3% completion rate and an average of 216.8 yards per game.
3)Systems QB’s completed 169-284 passes for 2019 yards in 8 games. This represents a 59.5% completion rate and an average of 252.3 yards per game.
4)Gunslinger QB’s threw for 4 touchdowns in 5 games, or a 0.8 touchdowns/game rate.
5)Systems QB’s threw for 14 touchdowns in 8 games, or a 1.75 touchdowns/game rate.
6)Gunslinger QB’s threw 5 interceptions in 5 games, or a 1.0 interceptions/game rate.
7)Systems QB’s threw 4 interceptions in 8 games, or a 0.5 interceptions/game rate.
There are many more factors which need to be included in any analysis of the effectiveness of gunslingers vs systems qb’s, but in this first look, it would appear that a team would be better off with a systems quarterback than a gunslinger.
So, I throw the question open for discussion:
What other factors/data do we need to address?
What other ways can the data be interpreted?
Do the categories need more and/or better definitions?
Are the quarterbacks in those 13 games placed in the right categories?
Have there been other MHR posts that should be linked & referenced here?
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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You da man, again!!!
I am gonna have to think about this tomorrow, three glasses of wine and I’m ready to hit the hay, but great job.
"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam
by lovewatchinthegame on May 9, 2009 11:11 PM MDT reply actions
thanks man,
as always, looking forward to your slant on it
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 9, 2009 11:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Great statistical approach.
as always, good work BShrout!
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
thanks
if you see anything that should be taken into account also, please throw it into the mix :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 12:06 AM MDT up reply actions
that's a new reason for a rec'd
thank you though, hope it’s interesting & look forward to hearing your take on the topic
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 12:43 AM MDT up reply actions
LMAO
Man you cranked that out FAST, BS! Very impressive! And nice work! I’m looking forward to seeing how the erudite minds amongst us interpret this data. I think it’s interesting to look at this as a contrast in player attributes rather than offensive philosophies. I’m particularly interested to see whether anyone feels that Elway was more gunslinger than system QB in those last two seasons, since he was operating within a WC style offense at that point and completing a lot of high percentage stuff and checkdowns to TD in the flat. Thoughts, everyone?
And now I know the secret to satisfying my off tangent curiosity about something. I just post a comment somewhere saying, “It would be interesting to see how the number of penguins in captivity contribute to worldwide population rates amongst the leading species of flightless birds…” MHR ROCKS!
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
I agree
I think Elway went more to a system QB (maintaining that rocket arm, wth according to someone it was not as strong as ……………..hmmmm who was that again? ) after we went West Coast offense.
"when they find the center of the universe, i know quite a few people that are going to be upset it isn't them" dmitchell624
by dmitchell624 on May 10, 2009 6:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Elway was both in his career
But he is usually viewed and referred to as a prototypical gunslinger qb due to his early career, his arm strength and his 4th quarter comebacks. Usually a system QB is one who is seen as leading a team to score early and often, and then manage the game & let the defense hold off the other team
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 7:26 AM MDT up reply actions
Elway was system QB
You could make the arguement that when Elway won those two Superbowls, he was just a system QB handing off to Terrel Davis and throwing occasionally. He didn’t have to throw it up and force it like the previous AFC Championship games against the browns.
He was a system QB, and that’s when he won the big one. They had to tame him and coach him up to finally win.
Favre is an untamed gunslinger and that’s why he has lost more big games than won them. When he finally had Dorcey Levens, is when he won playoff games, but after that…. back to throwing and not winning.
Big Ben is not really a gunslinger. He is a big body that hangs on to the ball too much. His first super bowl, he was pathetic, with the worst QB rating ever by a super bowl winning QB. Parkers 85 yard run was what broke that game, plus the referees screwing Seattle over to a certain extent. His second Super Bowl he played better, but by no means was he a gunslinger. He is just big and can move around without getting tackled. He had a few nice throws…. but no gunslinger. (Maybe we aren’t calling him a gunslnger because he didn’t throw 400 interceptions).
You could argue that gunslingers don’t win Super Bowls.
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by Cardiologist on May 10, 2009 8:52 AM MDT up reply actions
good points
I think that argument could be made of most of the QB’s on the list. I’m more and more starting to think we’re dealing with an issue of perception. If you have a strong arm and throw a ball 75 yards, and throw into tight coverage, you get labeled a gunslinger. If you’re more methodical and check down a lot, you’re a systems qb. I think a lot of it goes back to the early days of the NFL, and people want to hang onto those cherished images.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions
because technically
all QB’s are systems QB since their coaches design an offensive strategy that the QB is to implement.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions
Arizona could have won the game for it not for a couple of plays
by bfree2bronc on May 10, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
my youngest was screaming for one more Arizona drive.
LOL
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't know about flightless bird populations
but I have a crew of penguins working for me, doing some number-crunching, and they frustrate me to the point of sterility…
Penguins breaking down Jay Cutler going into 2008.
An interview with the smartest penguin that I know.
An attempt to drum up some federal funding for the penguins. It worked btw.
Slow news day, thought a trip in the MHR time machine might be fun…
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 10, 2009 8:26 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
lololololol
Oh man my sides hurt! I’m gonna go look at all those as soon as I’m done manufacturing a frittata for the mother of my children. ^^ Thanks, styg.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 8:45 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
totally great styg
have i mentioned that i truly love your writing style? it’s awesome
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions
you all are terrifically funny
maybe we should change our mascot :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions
I like the system qb better, the one smart, tough, and
able to manage the clock wisely. The guy who can drive the ball down the field in the last minute or 2 of the game to score the winning TD. Joe Montana was also very good at that. Thanks BS, 13-3 Baby!!!
with Orton and a new system
I’m a La La Land true believer. 13-3 baby!!!!
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 7:27 AM MDT up reply actions
When this debate comes up...
I always think back to the Chefs-Broncos game when Montana played for the Chefs.
That shootout was impressive to watch, and even though the Broncos lost, it really made me respect the “game manager” QB. I believe with the personnel we have this year, a “game manager” is what’s best…..and we have one!
I also believe that later in his career, Elway did become a hybrid of the 2 QB types. The ones that are hybrids make it to the Hall of Fame!
A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!
good point
Hadn’t thought about the hybrid qbs
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm not an analyst
but it seems that the receivers in the system play an important part of the success — for either type of quarterback. Elway frequently lacked elite receivers in his career, where Montana had Rice who made so many of his yards after the catch. I don’t know how to factor this in though.
John (HOF) Elway
I can’t compare quarterbacks as apples and oranges in my mind because everybody’s in a different system.
John Elway
true
which, as i mention below is why i’m starting to believe that we’re dealing with an issue of perception as much as stats and acheivement
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions
That's why I raised the question of additional factors
Unfortunately, I don’t know that there’s any way to chart how far the QB actually threw the ball, since stats are generally recorded after the play is over.
Receivers are important, as is the OL giving the QB time to throw, etc etc
I think for the most part, the perception is that the gunslinger will bull his way past the rush and make a throw into coverage when his receivers aren’t the best, while the systems guy will dink and dunk and throw to running backs releasing out of the backfield to avoid the rush.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 8:54 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm not an analyst either (but have occasionally needed one)
But I play one on TV…Your point is accurate. To be more fair – to analyze a QB accurately, you need to at least look at the following:
Head coach
Offensive coordinator (or in at least one case, QB coach calling plays)
Offensive system. If it’s a vertical passing game, the stats will be different from, say, a West Coast Offense
Offensive line (Ok, Broncos O line or the Rams? It makes a big difference in sacks, hurries, time to throw, etc)
Running game. If yours is poor, it places more pressure and emphasis on the QB/passing game
WR/TE corps. These should be seen both separately and in unison – the blocking/receiving balance of the TEs matters. The quality of the WRs should be obvious.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
You're right of course
It’s more complex, but still an interesting question to look at. The definitions are arbitrary.
It's a good question
As the man said, it’s a good place to start a discussion. I liked it.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
you're both right, BB & Ponderosa
It’s a very complex question and there are a lot more factors that have to be considered.
For me, it’s a question of why the gunslinger stereotype is so pervasive — maybe because it’s exciting to watch — when the system qb’s appear to be much more successful in terms of getting to and winning the Super Bowl.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions
One way is to look at touchdown to interception ratio. The more INTs per TD, the worse the QB…. the more of a risk taker, the less they protect the ball…. the more of a gunslinger.
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you have another great point
please keep them coming
Using that criteria, and the 13 Super Bowls, our gunslingers would be:
Roethlisberger (1TD-3INT) and Elway (1-2)
while the system qbs would be:
Favre (2-0), E. Manning (2-1), P. Manning (1-1), Brady (6-1), Johnson (2-1), Dilfer (1-0) and Warner (2-0)
Which would change the stats mentioned to only 4 of the last 13 were won by gunslingers.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
of course the same could be true
for a system QB who is simply failing in the system, or a system that is failing the QB. But even then I like your point. Gunslinger mentality by necessity.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
good point
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions
dang, hit the wrong key before i was done
It’s been suggested in other posts that perhaps part of the McD-Cutler issue was that Shanahan had built the “system” around Cutler, while McD wanted Cutler to fit into his system, and that McD did not see Cutler as being able to fit the system.
A lot of it probably boils down to the offensive philosophy of the coaching staff.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions
Honestly at this point
I’ve reduced the entire Cutler issue to its simplest elements in my mind. Shanny left, Bates left, Cutler left. I just don’t think he wanted to be here. The rest was set dressing to force a trade.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Besides McD did say
that his system could fit pretty much any style of quarterback. As long as they learned what to do.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I think you're most likely right
A young quarterback who saw his mentors leave, and the new guy in the valley wasn’t interested in stoking the image.
Until 2009 plays out, we have no way of knowing whether or not it will prove to have been a beneficial move for both parties.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 3:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Remember the conversation the McDaniels and Cutler had? Josh said it went well, Jay became even more upset.
You saw how hands-on McD was in coaching WRs on how to come out of breaks. I have a feeling that in that conversation, Jay realized how much coaching he was going to get from McKid, and that he didn’t want any of it.
could well be
Thanks for adding to the conversation Velveeta. You keep bringing up good points that should be pondered.
Keep up the good work.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
i’d rather have a QB who can read pro defenses than a QB who would rather force the ball into coverage
by lolcopter on May 10, 2009 11:43 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
amen to that
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 3:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Okay, now THAT
sums it up beautifully.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions
I was watching the Falcons game again the other day,
2nd & goal from about the six, Cutler throws a bullet to Pope @ the 5 with 3 defenders ON TOP of him, almost an INT., & all of a sudden, I didn’t miss Mr. Cutler anymore!! I’m glad he gets to play for his favorite team & hope he does well next year so that we get to pick @ 12 – 18 or so, next draft! 13-3 until we’re not!! GO BRONCOS!!!
In a way, Cutler's arm handicapped him.
Jay didn’t need to learn to read a defense, he (mostly) got away with throwing into coverage.
A couple of months ago, I watched a Cutler highlight video posted by someone who was enraged that McExpletive would trade the franchise QB. In the video, only a couple of his receivers were what could reasonably be called open.
I think Jay made his decisions prior to the snap. Even when he pump-faked, it was always to his intended receiver. He showed off some amazing skills getting it to his pre-selected receivers (mostly), but the end result was that he was rewarded for making a bad decision (or guessing wrong).
A QB with less physical talent (almost all of them) either adapts and learns to find open receivers, or fails.
I totally agree with this
I think Jay made his decisions prior to the snap.
He didn’t really seem to feel he needed much trickeration or subterfuge. Again, due to that arm.
Maybe Bates just didn’t challenge him like McDaniels was about to. And maybe that’s why he liked Bates.
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
And I have to say
if that is the case, I don’t like his odds for improvement under Chicago’s QB coach, whoever it was that was overseeing KO and RG. Even if the coach is good, can you imagine the response Jay would give him if he told him he needed to work on playing smarter??
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I fear you may be right
but even though I’m not really a Jay Cutler fan, I do wish him the best
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
on the one hand
Jay had tremendous confidence in his ability to get the ball to the receiver he wanted to have it.
The down side to that is as has been pointed out — a tendency to force throws.
All of which fits the stereotype of the gunslinger.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions
btw, Velveeta
once again, a great insight
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
On Categorization
I just have a hard time accepting the Mannings as “System QBs” and to some extent, maybe Warner.
It seems like calling them system QBs is downplaying their skills, and I know you didn’t mean to, but I don’t think Peyton should be with Trent Dilfer.
Dilfer, Johnson, and perhaps Warner are the kind of QBs that need a certain offense to succeed, thus are system QBs. It seems to me that both Mannings and Brady are talented enough to succeed outside of their current system, and I would thus classify them as “Good” quarterbacks or “All-Around QBs”.
I just feel that might help out some of the comparisons, because we know we don’t have a Tom Brady in Kyle Orton, but we may have a Brad Johnson.
Thanks for the post!
Once again 'Gunslinger' is brought up and my mind drifts to Roland...........but that is another suject...
What this site needs to realize is the changes this team has realized has nothing to do with QB.
Man !! ! I love Shanny…and will forever. Yet the more I look at this team, and the changes McDaniels brought, remind of a great team, where every team (last year) knew exactly what we were…and now won’t.
Our weakness, the last two years was not offense…it was every other aspect of the game—all aspects…funny our team!
I don’t care who runs our offense this year I cannot find a flaw…anywhere. !!
Let’s focus on the Special Teams Play of the Vets we brought in, lets focus in on the change from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defense. Lets be happy ! I even think Jarvis Moss may prove a Great pick this next year…maybe not…but I think so.
Gunslinger or “System QB” …………………..it doesn’t matter
Playoffs here we come!! ! !!!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
As usual Mike,
You’ve brought us back to what is important:
Cheering our team on to 13-3 and the play-offs.
Thanks.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Maybe we need a new catagory?
Lets call it “League QB’s” aka Tom Brady and Payton Manning.
Both guys fit the discription of gunslinger and system QB.
$!
by AllinWithMyCards on May 10, 2009 6:16 PM MDT reply actions
I LIKE that idea
Since we’re moving into a new era with the Broncos, why not create a whole new set of terms to refer to the skill players.
Keep those great ideas flowing aiwmc (yes, I’m too lazy to type out your whole screen name) :D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions
but not
too lazy for a parenthetical! lol
"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster
by broncosmontana on May 10, 2009 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions
ssssshhhhhhhh
you weren’t supposed to notice that
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:51 PM MDT up reply actions
oh and Kyle Orton is good enough for 10 wins.
$!
by AllinWithMyCards on May 10, 2009 6:17 PM MDT reply actions
Remember, this is La La Land, he's good for 13 wins baby!!!
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions
works for me
though you’ll have to take it up with Mike Clark — he has a whole philosophy/theology on why it’s 13-3
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions
last time we went 13-3 we lost in the AFC championship game.
So why not go for one more victory to even things up?
$!
by AllinWithMyCards on May 10, 2009 6:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Good point
I remember being heart-broken by that game.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Have you ever typed something then proof read it over and over then once you submitted it realized all your grammer errors…. yeah i’m there right now.
and I meant to call it “League Elite Qb’s”
sorry.
$!
by AllinWithMyCards on May 10, 2009 6:32 PM MDT reply actions
LOL topys? never. ;-p
we all do them, then go oh crap, & go on. :D
League Elite and/or League, both would work.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Why not “Franchise QB”? That seems to be a good word.
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by Cardiologist on May 10, 2009 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions
That would work, with one concern
The only issue I could see with Franchise QB as a label is the NFL’s use of the franchise tag. That’s a salary/trade/personnel issue which might cloud what people are trying to say about the importance/style/system of a given quarterback. We would need a way to distinguish between Franchise QB as a quarterback descriptor and franchise player as an NFL contractual concept.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 10, 2009 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Brady
Quote “He is not an amazing QB talent, like Montana, Elway, Marino. He is more of a Troy Aikmen type that played in a good system with great talent around him.”Quote
I agree with that quote. I never thought of comparing Brady to Aikman, but that makes sense. However, he didn’t have great talent around him until 07. He was always in the right system for him that camofluaged his weaknesses, but when he started in 01 he had below average talent around him. From 03-05 it was better because he had Branch, Givens, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, and Clock Killin’ Corey Dillon, but, after weak WR talent in 06, he finally had a devastating offense with Moss, Welker, and Stallworth. Moss should have been the 07 MVP, not Brady.
that is a great comparison
that for the additonal analysis
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 11, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Brady in 01
sounds like Orton in Chicago, with very little talent at WR.
be interesting to see
if Orton responds to McD the way Brady did, & evolves the way Brady did once he got some decent receivers to support him.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 11, 2009 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I think the term Franchise QB may apply more in the case of evaluating QBs
When discussing Gunslinger Vs. System QBs a lot is open to interpretation. When I think of Manning, I think of a guy that can control the tempo of a game. I think of a guy who can implement his will through the course of a game. I’d say when needed he’s a gunslinger but ironically Manning IS the system. When I thought of Elway I thought of the same thing. Being a Bears fan but watching from a far, I saw a guy throwing to Vance Johnson, Ricky Nattiel, Mark Jackson, and the best runningback he had back then was Bobby Humphrey. He WAS the system. In that he needed to be a gunslinger. Once he got older and more pieces was in place, he didn’t need to carry the load.
I think the term “system QB” is looked at in a negative way and I honestly think that it should be. A system QB to me is a QB that is limited in the effect that he will have on the game. The spectrum of his ability is smaller. Therefore markers and buffers are needed to be placed in order for him to operate. For example, a strong running game, a great defense, solid special teams aren’t a luxury, they are integral to his existance let alone his success. I think of Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and to this point in his career, Kyle Orton. See there is no room for error with a system QB. He’s just a piece to the puzzle.
A “Franchise QB” is like a beautiful woman. You know her when you see her. Forget the stats. There’s nothing but an eyeball test that’s needed. You don’t have to explain it. The guy is the integral piece to what you are doing as a franchise. You are going to build around this guy. As long as he’s there, you have a shot. He’s the difference between being a God awful team and having a chance to being competitive or a playoff team year after year. Even in down years with a bad defense and no running game, you have a shot. See, that’s what a franchise QB gives you. A shot. Brett Farve, John Elway, Peyton manning, Donovan McNabb, Tom Brady, and possibly Jay Cutler, gives you a shot every year despite what the rest of the team looks like. That’s the difference to me. Great discussion and topic.
It DOES seem to be a case of interpretation
There are a lot of assumptions/presumptions/and perspectives tied up in this kind of analysis. It all begins with what your basic definitions are.
I agree that “system” quarterback has been used with negative connotations — generally to discount the abilities of a given quarterback. “Oh, he’s just a system guy.”
As I mentioned above, the only issue I have with using the term “franchise” is that the NFL has the concept of a “franchise tag” that can be placed on players, and that can engender confusion when discussing a given player. For example, New England put the franchise tag on Matt Cassell before they were certain that Tom Brady would return. After it was evident Brady would return, they traded Cassell.
I liked this quote:
The guy is the integral piece to what you are doing as a franchise. You are going to build around this guy. As long as he’s there, you have a shot. He’s the difference between being a God awful team and having a chance to being competitive or a playoff team year after year. Even in down years with a bad defense and no running game, you have a shot.
I especially think the key is “year after year,” which is another reason I’m not fond of the Franchise QB label. There are too many unproven college players coming out and being called Franchise players before they’ve ever played a down in the NFL. I think the designation is one that has to be earned over a period of years. I’m neither pro- nor anti- Jay Cutler, but I believe that he has not had the length of time to establish whether or not he is in fact a “franchise quarterback.”
Which also raises the question of how much of a role does the supporting cast play in this?
In any event, great insights and comments. Thanks.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
Sure. Once again great topic and insight
I think this season will be interesting for both QBs. Orton will be in a enviornment where we’ll see if he’s a piece to the puzzle or if he can lift his game to new heights with his supporting cast. For Cutler, this will be his chance to prove if he is that frachise QB we all here in Chicago are praying he is because his cast just isn’t as good as what he had. Should be fun.
agreed-- 2009 is going to be a fun & wild ride
I believe Orton will get to have a break out year in Denver.
I wish Jay the best in Chicago. I believe his biggest challenge will be learning to lean on his supporting cast (even though they may not be as good as what he had) and not operating from the belief that he has to carry it all by himself. If he can master that lesson, I believe he will have a good year.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 11, 2009 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Amen!
Nice discussion guys! I enjoyed reading it!
I appreciate your jumping into the discussion
Rocko, you, like everyone else, make great points that deserve lots of consideration
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 11, 2009 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Stabler and Jow Willie Namath
Kenny and Joe were two of the greatest gunslingers from the 60s/70s era. Both these guys had icewater running through their veins and could thread a needle with the rock.
I’ve been watching football for a long time and the key ingredient of successful QBs, imo, is what’s between the ears. One could probably make that statement about professional sports in general. Some pros are allways going to have an edge in physical skills, but the difference maker imo is between the ears. The ability to perform at peak capacity while under pressure and stress. The ability to not let the last play effect the task at hand. The ability to lead and stay in control of yourself.
excellent point
mind-set is crucial
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and hope you come down somewhere between the two.
by Brian Shrout on May 12, 2009 6:05 AM MDT up reply actions
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