The reason for Quinn
by Kdo09 on Jun 11, 2009 8:53 AM MDT
76 comments
This is my first post here at MHR, so please don’t beat me up too badly.
There seems to be a considerable amount of criticism/substantial questioning surrounding the pick of Richard Quinn. I’d like to take a few lines to explain why this pick may be one of the most important acquisitions of this off-season.
I can’t remember who (and I can’t find it again), but one of the many, smarter than me people that contribute to this site brought up 3 TE sets. Ever since reading that article, I’ve been trying hard to wrap my head around what this could bring to the 2009 Denver Broncos. The answer? It’s a MAJOR piece to fixing our red-zone TD production.
So back to the original question, “Why Richard Quinn?” Because he was the best pass blocking TE available. In order for the 3 TE set to be effective, 3 different TEs are needed.
- A spooky receiving threat TE. Someone that can be split out, set beside the Tackle or set as an H-back that can run a mid-deep route and consistently make the catch. SCHEFFLER
- A versatile TE that can do everything well. GRAHAM
- A pass blocking TE that nobody is going to account for other than a guy that’s going to hit a Run-Stuffing LB. See QUINN
Prior to drafting Quinn we simply didn’t have another TE capable of blocking the way that D. Graham can.
It’s been pretty tough to do any real substantial research on the 3 TE subject, but I’ve tried. I asked Jim Miller, via another message board I frequent, his opinion on the matter; specifically on the WR involved in the package and how it would be applied with the Broncos personnel. He didn’t answer it completely but I’ll post his reply.
Kdo9,
Awsome stuff! Yes, I would think it would be Marshall too. 3 te sets force defense into either 1. going to a 4-4 look where they bring in extra linebacker to stop the run or 2. bringing that extra safety down into a LB position to defend the run. And they get antsy to fill quickly. It would give Marshall a good look outside. If the defense does keep a safety over the top of Marshall's side, now you are outmanned frontside. You can out-leverage a defense when this happens with te in the flat and other front-side te on a corner route. If you can run the ball well, play action now becomes nightmare. Lb'rs will have a tough time recovering vs te's off a play action fake.
Plus, normally the longest runs from the LOS happen in a 4 minute drill when you are trying to run out the clock and have heavy personnel on the field. Example is Balt vs Dallas last year, they ripped off and 76 yarder and a 64 yarder in the 4th qtr to seal the deal.
Defense plays closer to LOS especially the LB'rs and safeties. If they are out of position at all or a gap is not controlled, it is going to the house because RB gets to the second level faster, due to defense encroaching on the LOS.
Mills
So it appears that the primary purpose of the 3 TE set is short yardage/running the ball. But what I was really interested in when I asked Mills the question was concerning the pass option. At this point I need to divert ALL the credit to Dagger of Postgameheros.com. In his Sept 20, 2007 post he does an excellent job of explaining why the Steelers (surprisingly) drafted the “best TE in the Draft” (Matt Spaeth) when they already had a stud TE in Heath Miller. At the time the Steelers had a different personnel issue than the Broncos. They were missing the “other receiving TE”. The TE not mentioned much is a guy named Jermaine Tuman, a 6’4” 250lb veteran TE. Ever heard of him? Probably not. An eleven year veteran TE with 46 career receptions isn’t going to be high on anyone’s radar. In any case I highly recommend checking out his article.
http://www.postgameheroes.com/?p=764
So to conclude, the Broncos were……..not good at finishing drives last year. If the 3 TE set is primarily used to facilitate short yardage running situations, that alone should help our Red-Zone production. But with the passing problems this formation presents, our TD production should be noticeably improved.
As one last note, I’d like to point out one last possibility that this formation COULD provide. If the normal 3 TE set consists of 1 WR, 2 TEs on the line and another in the H-back position and a RB, what would a Defensive Coordinator think/do if instead of 1 WR, we have SCHEFFLER split out wide with GRAHAM and QUINN on the line……..and MORENO and HILLIS in the backfield. Plan for that one!!
Thanks for your time.
KO
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
19 recs |
76 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Nice job!
That was an interesting read, KO.
I’m all for more TD’s in the Red Zone, and if a 2 TE set makes it happen then bring it on!
Rec’d
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
Got an NFL player to answer a question
don’t see that in blogs to often. Well Done Sir. And agree with this completely. McKid plays situational football and I think this is a text book example of what that means and also how he drafted to fit the need. He’s already drafting for the future evolution of the NFL.
sbhchawk
Here to drink the KoolAid poured by KO
Great Article!
Thats by far the best case for the Quinn pick Ive seen pro or not. Rec’d
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."
Vince Lombardi
I don't know if you saw these
HT wrote this article on the possibilities of the 3 TE formation. It inspired me to write this piece in which I postulated that the Broncos have the personnel to do very much what you’ve suggested. Then they picked up Quinn to make things even more interesting. Good post!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT
HT did a review of Bronco TEs in February. I was also inspired by the article by HT referenced above by BroncoBear and wrote about the “Magic 3”; my belief is that with Hillis and Moreno in the backfield and the 3 TEs as noted; the formation will be unstoppable. A smash mouth power running formation or a five TE/RB/HB receiving formation. (Quinn as noted is a very good receiver). Add in a TE in motion, WOW the combinations are innumerable.
Alternate that formation with a traditional 5 receiver set (Speed) – How do you defense this ReBorn Broncos Offense?
GOOD POST – look to see more from you. & rec.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
Ah HA!!
I knew I’d read them here somewhere. Thanks Broncobear!! You and Hoosierteacher where the Two “smarter than me”s I was refering to.
Qinn is a good receiver too
Broncos worked him out before the draft, and McD said he caught everything that was thrown to him. I saw some film of some of the catches he made in college and was very impressed. By September we’ll all be going Wow.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
I hope you'll stick around and post more. Rec'd.
Loved the Quinn interview, by the way. Yet another classy kid who will honor the orange and blue. I don’t see any citizens getting their butts kicked outside a pancake house under McDaniels watch.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 11, 2009 11:02 AM MDT reply actions
If they do,
they won’t be here long.
What was that expression Jerry Glanville (former coach of the Falcons) used on a zebra in that great NFL clip they used to show all the time? Something along the lines of – “This is the NFL. You know what that means? Not For Long if you keep making calls like that!”
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
Two words, Chad Mustard
Would you use a second round pick on Chad Mustard? IMO, that is basically what we did, maybe that is a little unfair, I would say Quin may be more like Dwane Carswell, again a very good player and a great blocking TE and underrated reciever, but again, would you use a 2nd round pick on him? It comes down to overall value, I understand the arguement for getting a better three TE set, but that can be accomplished in a wide variety of ways, convert a OT, get a blocking TE, move a defensive player to the other side for short yardage situations. I just think there was better value there looking at another position.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I understand
But dont forget that D. Graham has been in the league for 8 years and is 30 years old. Maybe Quinn was a reach but I dont know of any other blocking TE on the market that have significant upside. If Quinn is being groomed to replace Graham, then its not a bad move.
I'd have to see Mustard's combine numbers
…but I suspect Quinn’s were better.
If you read the piece from Quinn’s home town paper, it contained an interesting bit about how another team was planning on taking him in the third round.
Which is essentially what we did. Yes, he is a second round pick, but he was the last pick of the second round, and we got he and a fourth rounder for two third rounders.
So asking if we’d take Chad Mustard in the second round seems to be a bit of stretch, as hypothetical comparisons go.
Add to that that Quinn went mostly under the radar as a pass receiver because of the scheme at NC and not because of some deficiency in talent, and we may have gotten a real steal here, when all is said and done.
I really don't buy the arguement that we had to pick him because another team was going to
Look every team is going to pick someone, that reasoning was also used when we selected Maurice Clarrett with the last third round pick. The reasoning was we had to take him because Dallas was supposed to take him in the next round? That worked out well. But again, combine numbers are just that, numbers, Vernon Davis numbers were awesome, yet he definately wasn’t worth a top ten pick based on his college production, the same arguement can be made with Quinn, his college production was not there to warrent anything other than a blocking TE and a project, I don’t see the value in the second round for a blocking TE that is a project. Righ now he may play as a third TE, that is a limited role, to me, 2nd rounders should hopefully be players that can play a signicant amount of time their first season and hopefully be a starter by year 2 or 3, I don’t see Quinn being a starter in McDaniels offense in 2 to 3 years, maybe 4 to 5. Another similar player is Jason Dunn of the Chiefs, who was touted as thishighly athletic TE, but basically became a blocking TE.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
If I remember correctly (which I may not since it was a while ago),
the Broncos used a compensatory pick for Clarrett that year. If I’m the GM, I don’t mind a high risk/high reward choice on a compensatory pick. It’s like playing with the house’s money. They had already drafted Paymah and Foxworth earlier in the round, so why not? But all this is off the subject.
I think McDaniels identified his guy in this case and went for him, more so than picked him because he thought someone else would draft him first. But I could be wrong and McDaniels could have his head up his ass. Only time will tell.
by Streams Of Whiskey on Jun 11, 2009 5:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think we had to pick him necessarily...
But if we wanted to make sure we got him, picking him where we did seems about right.
why blocking TEs are needed
From something I posted previously on trends in the NFL.
Blocking tight ends are back.
Brandon Pettigrew, the first tight end selected (20th, Lions), is a blocker, not a pass catcher in the Antonio Gates mold. Pettigrew was no surprise, but Richard Quinn of North Carolina was. Quinn caught just eight passes in 2008, but the Broncos thought enough of his blocking to select him in the second round.
With so many defenses switching to 3-4 schemes and aligning linebackers far away from the offensive tackles, offenses must adjust by making sure their tight ends can pass protect. ,,
Zone-and-stretch blocking schemes also require good blocking tight ends who can control linebackers and "wash out" defenders on the back side of plays. A total of 16 tight ends were selected in all: not bad for a position that was on the verge of extinction when the run ‘n’ shoot defense was in vogue.
It’s not that I didn’t like Mustard but there was a reason we could repeatedly cut him and re-sign him at our pleasure. Other teams never found him interesting, for some reason.
A little more on Quinn.
(2008)Graded 85.46% for blocking consistency, as he delivered 78 knockdowns, eleven touchdown-resulting blocks and ten blocks down field…
(2007)Registered 139 knockdowns, 18 touchdown-resulting blocks and 18 down field blocks, grading 85.08% for blocking consistency
"If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
Thanks for the Trends link, 'Ski
That was a great article. I noticed that our own Darcel McBath managed to get a nod as a hybrid or ‘tweener’ safety, and Cody Brown (who I covered in a Tales article over the winter) also got a nod. The 5-2 version of the 3-4 hybrid defense also got some much needed attention, which should make SWG happy ;-)
Hillis/Moreno in '09
specific needs & TEs
I just wanted to add to what’s above, although it should be apparent — we play in a division in which two of the three other teams now use a 3-4. Moreover, approximately a dozen teams overall will be using the 3-4. [LINK]
TEAMS USING A 3-4 IN 2009
Miami
Denver (Soon)
Green Bay ^^
Kansas City ^^
Baltimore
Pittsburgh
New England
New York J.
San Diego
San Fransisco
Dallas
Cleveland
Arizona (Occasionally, their a 4-3/3-4 hybrid)
Picking Quinn seems prescient and appropriate given both how often we’ll be facing 3-4s with ‘rush’ backers and our needs as a ZB team. And I don’t want to neglect the red zone theory that Kdo09 mentions above, since that was my first thought, too.
Many of the decisions by McX make great sense once they’re examined from a ‘football’ point of view. The Quinn pick always struck me as having an ulterior logic that I, as a dilettante, could appreciate but didn’t fully understand yet. At least not without help from the ‘X and Os’ guys.
Re: the S/CB hybrids. This strikes me as a response to the pass catching TEs and oversized possession WRs. And I’d love to hear some other comments on this.
In a general sense — the tendency of offenses to exploit mismatches creates a niche for tweeners on the defensive side. S/CBs are a response to this need to cover ‘bigger’ receivers, and there’s also a S/LB hyrid, which wasn’t covered in Tanier’s article. Barrett’s recent deployment in a monster-type role seems to exemplify this. These trends are both responsive and proactive, since defenses can create mismatches, too.
My feeling at this point is that we’ll see a fairly large group of DBs this year. Nolan’s recent tendency is to keep a fairly large group. However, it will still depend of the talent level.
"If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
hyperbole noted B-Man
Mustard is not a likely comparison to Quinn. Mustard wasn’t projected as a draftee when he came out of D2 North Dakota (where he was attending on a basketball scholarship), and spent his first year out of college playing for the Omaha Beef. Then Cleveland sent him to NFL Europe for a year,a nd he palyed the practice squad game until he arrived on Denver’s depleted TE roster.
Carswell is a little closer, but still pretty far off. Carswell and Mustard were both oversized TEs and more suited to the tweener roles given to them as Olinemen. They could both catch because they were developed in programs where they were taught to catch, and Carswell even played RB.
But neither one has the physical skills to compete with Quinn. Quinn is as athletic as the top TEs in this draft, and I trust the reports coming in that say he is an above average receiver.
I’ll say this, he who waits for TEs, waits too long. It is such a unique skillset for any quality variant of a TE that waiting past the midrounds, and especially to the undrafted crop is a recipe for a limited depth and versatility at the position.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 11, 2009 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions
My point maybe is that I don't see Quinn developing into anything more than a Carswell type player
It’s hard to sit there and project that Quinn will be anything other than a blocking TE since he really did not show much pass catching ability in college, so I see the comparison to someone like Carswell or Mustard, all three were or are developmental projects, so yes you can make the arguement we had to pick him based on combine numbers, but when you project just based on combine numbers you tend to reach, see Vernon Davis who was a physical freak of nature at the combine, but really hadn’t done much at college, and what happens is he hasn’t done much at the 49ers, especially nothing to warrent a top ten pick.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I dont care about the combine.
I watch film of Quinn and he plays a lot like D. Graham. I’m not saying he’s as good as Graham, or ever will be, but I feel he compares better to him than Mustard or Carswell. But to each their own. I’m good with the pick, only time will tell.
alot like Graham in college or like Graham in the NFL?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 11, 2009 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Why
Graham was a much more polished TE (Receiving and blokcing) coming out of college, that is why he was a 1st round pick. I don’t know how you project Quinn to Graham, Graham is a far more complete TE.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
From what I've heard
he did show pass catching ability when he was thrown to. He just wasn’t thrown to much, due apparently to the kind of offense his team ran. By your criteria Eddie Royal “did not show much pass catching ability in college,” either. No one can guarantee that any player, including the number one draft choice, will turn out as projected, but Quinn has far more athleticism and potential than Mustard or Carswell had coming out of college.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Well Vernon Davis is more athletic than any of them, was that achoice you would want
What I am getting at is that pople seem to be stating that based on his combine numbers he will project as a pass catching TE, that is somewhat foolish. The others are stating that his coach says he will be a great TE, well every collegecoach will generally ay that about his players. I remember June Jones telling eveyone Ashleigh Lelie was the greatest WR he had ever coached, well, either he coached a bunch of crappy WR or he was trying to prop up his players. College coaches will always try to compliment a player when he leaves, it shows the incoming recruits that the coach will try to help a player get drafted higher, and thereb increase the interest from the recruit.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I'm not sure he's viewed by the Broncos as just a blocking TE.
I was intrigued by Quinn before they drafted him. What I kept reading is how good he looks as a pass catching project, which is gravy on top of his undisputed blocking prowess. He turned heads at the combine with his athleticism and hands. He was also never given an opportunity in college because that O was built around Nicks, Tate, the other WR and a power running game. He accepted his role, soldiered on and got rewarded for it.
My point, I guess, is that ‘blocking TE’ is a very rigid box and just because thats how Mike Mayock or somebody might generalize him, I doubt the Broncos view him as a career third TE. If they did, then THEY DO deserve criticism for picking him that early. They have much bigger plans for him and only time will tell if he can live up to his draft position.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 11, 2009 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions
House!
i loved house, i remember when he got seriously injured in a car crash, we dedicated the season to him, and finished our “warm-up chant” with “house!” every time. i believe we even wore his jersey #89 on a patch that season. i also think mustard was a good player, great blocker, and not deficient in pass-catching skills, either. really cheap, too. quinn is probably viewed as a younger, better blocker with more upside(pass-catching) than chad. he probably is being groomed to replace graham, and if we are going to use 3 te’s, we will need another good one at that time, also.
if not, we stand to save alot of money for other positions, anyway, as graham is a very expensive(but worthwhile) te. i tend to give him some credit for our o-line success last season, and blocking te’s will be even more important this season against a stellar set of defenses. red-zone, yeah, that too. as far as value goes, this does appear to be a very high pick for a “blocking te”. i just have to think the fo sees more in this player than what he has done in college, and with a new qb, first-round rb, and still questionable d and st’s, perhaps the value of his skills are much higher here than elsewhere. for better or worse, this draft really wasn’t about need, and to a lesser extent, traditional value.
that being said, i also believe we could have done more with the front 7 this off-season, specifically the d-line, in terms of proven/starting quality. and if that was poor value/wasted picks/character concerns in the draft, it could have been addressed in fa. there were some proven/quality players that were signed for good value that could have really helped us there. they don’t come cheaply, especially 3-4 guys, but the price will likely just go up next year. we need several players to step up and change their roles this season. if so, we’ll be ok. as far as the undrafted fa’s go, the reason i heard baker wasn’t drafted, despite his impressive talent, was serious character concerns. so i wouldn’t be penciling him in as a steal at this point, or a long-term solution.
i don’t know about the other d players mentioned, but there must be a reason they were passed on time and again. even by us. i don’t think you can really switch them in to where the scouts had them rated talent-wise, or bank on, again, a long-term solution there. we need excellence up front, and that is a long haul. but i’ve come to view this season as a “weeding-out” year for the defense, and hopefully we find more keepers than not. i don’t think i’m ever going to be comfortable with our d-line, and as it’s been noted, developement is slowest there. i don’t know the answer to that riddle, when availability/value/need/system-fit/character ever meet perfectly. so i share your concern with our run-stopping and pass-rushing prowess, this season, anyway. if anything, we should have the versatlity and depth in our favor this season, and a serious upgrade in coaching/play-calling. and maybe just enough oomph! to get the job done, bottom line.
taste my blintzkrieg!
2009-year of the secondary?
What suggestions do you have for the front 7? How could we have done more?
I hear the comment a lot, yet not many solutions are brought when MSM and fans say that.
I look at what was done in FA, the draft and CFA and struggle to find how we could off got any better value, and any more playmakers than we did when looking at fit for the team, attitude and character of players.
I am not having a go at you Dave, but it has been a common theme since McD was hired, yet I hear no solutions from anyone.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
Chad Mustard
isn’t a valid comparison, so yeah, it’s a little unfair. To say that blocking is his strength means only that receiving isn’t, not that he’s a great blocking TE. Quinn apparently is, or at least was in college, a great blocking TE. If he turns out to be a good receiver, too — his college stats might be misleading since his team apparently doesn’t use the TE as a receiver — the sky’s the limit. Of course he might not live up to his potential, but that’s true of anyone including Stafford so doesn’t bear on the question of whether he’s good value that high in the draft.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Kdo09
You have not only earned my rec, but I see your very first post made it to the top of the recommended list! Very, very nice job!
Like you, I share the thought that Quinn was a very smart pick. It also sounds like he’s a better receiver than advertised. He remains a very tough blocker. I wrote the Magic 3 article well before we picked up McDaniels (who comes from a team that runs some 3 TE sets; in fact, one of three teams experimenting with it – Den, Pitt, NE).
I’m glad to see an article endorsing a player that might otherwise get ovelooked. I’m also glad that Denver seems to be continuing with the 3 TE experimental program. Orton is just the right kind of QB to play in the formation (smart, cautious, accurate).
Good job!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
You're making me blush.
I would be REALLy interested in hearing how, from a defensive standpoint, you would break down the 3 TE, 0 WR, Hillis + Moreno set. That was ultimately what I asked Jim Miller but he didn’t bite.
Go back and read my old MHR-U article on the Magic 3
I used to discuss it with a lot of coaches (from other programs and even at seminars). It was a pretty hot topic. What scared me about it was that I didn’t have an answer, and nobody else seemed to either. (Though we were discussing 3 TEs, with 1 WR).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 12, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Kdo9
Awesome post homie and rec’d.
Very simple, and love the link to the Steelers plays.
Great job!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
This is a nice post, thank you!
I just think you have to weigh the decision to draft him against 2 factors:
1. How much better is Quinn than any other potential 3rd TE on the roster? Might any other TE on the team (or for that matter some other free agent TE or a later round draft pick TE) have been able to produce as a 3rd TE? In other words, if we’re using a 3rd TE in addition to Graham and Scheffler, then we’re drafting Quinn based on what he can bring to the team above and beyond what someone like Putzier brings to the table. I know Putzier isn’t really a blocking specialist, but maybe there are other blocking TE’s out there.
2. How much more important was it to add Quinn vs. adding a defensive front 7 player who can stuff the run or get to the quarterback? Apparently, some people feel that no defensive front 7 player in the draft available at the end of the 2nd round or lower would have been able to help the team enough to outweigh what Quinn adds to the offense.
I am always a little skeptical of players who climb up draft boards after the college football season ends, I’ve always felt that production during actual games should far outweigh combine, senior bowls, etc. I’ve heard lots of people say Quinn caught everything thrown at him during some sort of non-game situation. Great. All that being said, I don’t have a particular problem with Quinn as a player. I sure hope he ends up being everything we all hope he will be.
The myth of the front 7
Coach McDaniels has said this a few times and I just thought that it might help the conversation to mention it -
The Broncos did not see very many candidates who would help the front 7 in the long run. It was a draft rich in tweeners, which we have in spades, and sparse in the type of 3-4 DL that we are looking for. We dealt with this via free agency (Reid, Fields, etc) as well as via developing linemen and through the CFA ‘draft’. Since the scheme is changing, some of the remaining players including Thomas and Petersen seem to fit well and will play at one of the DL slots in certain formations. There wasn’t a player that they felt was a substantial value for them and for their scheme. Since we still don’t know the scheme, we will have to at least wait until training camp to know what they are referring to, but just drafting guys because they play the DL, whether they fit your scheme and goals or not is just wasting picks.
I know that I posted on this today, but with the amount of information that they develop on the exact players they are looking for and the extensive analysis of the players themselves, if they didn’t see that, I’ve got to at least wait and see why.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I think what many fans are having trouble getting their heads around
including me at first, is McDaniels’ and Xanders’ draft philosophy, which is counter-intuitive in the short run but makes perfect sense over the long haul. I’m not even sure it’s best player available. Best value available might be more accurate. To take an extreme and unlikely but hopefully revealing example, let’s say we have the best kicker in the league, and that a kicker is the best player available and in fact is almost as good as the one we already have. However, he won’t add any value at all because he won’t even make the team. But a guy who can improve us at his position is good value even if we’re not especially needy at that position, because if we keep taking guys who better us at their position we’ll eventually be better at all positions. If we draft the best available nose tackle when our turn comes and the best available isn’t very good and can’t beat out our incumbent mediocrities, we’ve just wasted a draft pick. The draft is strong at different position in different years, so over time good players will be available at all positions. If we keep drafting players who are an improvement at their positions, in time we’ll be strong at all positions. I realize you know this as well as or better than I do, but I think there are many others who aren’t clear on it.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
PROOF
Here are the 2006 Pats (sans Moss/Welker) using a 3 TE set inside the five yardline with Graham, Vrabel, and Watson.
Look for this play and variations of it in 2009 from teh Broncos.
Good job on the post!
MORE PROOF
Here’s another 3 TE set with the same 3 guys in the red zone. This time Graham gets the TD
JeffG
JeffG addressed the myth of the front 7 better than I could over on the Evaluation thread, so I’m going to let his words speak. Jeff – forgive me:
scouting reports
Pedescleaux: CNN/SI – 5th Rd.; CBS Sports – 7th Rd. The NFP’s Wes Bunting:
"Well, you know, he’s not rated on many big boards or anything like that, but when you’re going through these national Blesto rankings, you see a small school guy, you first want to see what his attributes are: he’s 6’6", 305, 310 pounds, so right away that’s a great (size) for a 5-technique defensive end to be. I want to see how athletic he is. Well, he’s running a sub-5.00 forty, that’s what he was timed during the spring season. That’s a great athlete right there.
"So you start doing a little research on him. He was a finalist for Minnesota’s Mr. Basketball, so again, a great athlete. And then you start digging up whatever tape you can find, trying to do as much research as you can. And going into the year, he was just up and down, never really found his way, but as a senior, really polished his technique, looked like a football player, and with his extreme athletic talents really jumped out on tape. (He) was third-team All-American, had six and a half sacks, but double teamed consistently, and I mean, he can bull rush, handle the point of attack, and just a really impressive guy. In scouting circles, everyone knows who he is, but the average fan, they have no idea who this guy is because he’s from Northern Iowa. But he’s slowly creeping up draft boards, and if he runs as well as many assume at his Pro Day (Pedescleaux did not receive an invitation to the 2009 NFL Scouting Combine), this guy’s gonna jump up and the media will be all over him. He’s a really big-time prospect."
I have him as a swap out for McKinley in the 5th
Chris Baker: you can find reports on him all over the place, from NFP to many of the draft sites. He is generally considered a "sleeper" or "underrated" and was projected anywhere from 3 on.
Here’s the National Football Post’s article on 3-4 players for the 2009 draft:
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/04/nfp-specialty-rankings-3-4-defense/
"Small-school prospects Baker and Hill both have the size for the position, but what makes them intriguing is their natural athleticism and quickness inside. Baker played the five-technique position at Hampton and could be asked to play anywhere along the defensive line at the next level. However, his short, squatty frame and natural leverage will likely draw some interest among teams in need of a nose."
Nfldraft101 has him as the most underrated DL.
I have him as our second pick of the 4th round, swapped out for Olsen.
Rulon Davis: good size and lots of intangibles. I have him in the 6th, swapped out for Brandstater.
Robinson is featured in that same NFP article and from all the scouting reports I’ve read was graded as a late round pick. I’ve put him as a 7th rounder.
None of these (hypothetical) picks are reaches; none would have raised eyebrows had they been taken where I have them taken here.
And — and this was my point — had McDaniels drafted like this, nobody would be accusing the Broncos of "not addressing the front 7."
Instead, they’d be forced to begin arguing that we didn’t address the front with all of our high picks. Good luck selling people on a reprisal of the 2007 draft strategy…
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Beautifully said
BB
Absolutely true. If you swap out 3 offensive players and plug in these 3 defensive players, the draft theme would have been defense, as well as front 7 emphasis. All the analysts would have said, BRAVO BRONCOS!
How genius to end up with them anyway. I’m looking forward to preseason games to see these 3 play.
by MichaelCushman on Jun 11, 2009 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Walter Football had Chris Baker a high 2nd rounder
chosen by the Raiders with the 7th pick. They also had Alphonso going on the third pick of that round.
http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2009_2.php
"Remember, it's only a game."
OK, let's say we accept your "myth" of the front 7...
Were there any team needs that could have been better met with a 2nd round pick? What is your opinion on the value of Quinn above Putzier (or Quinn above any other FA or draft-able TE) when weighed vs. ANY other area of need on the team?
the "myth"
Well, how bout this? Graham aint no spring chicken. Would you rather have Scheff inline? Putz? We can always go back to the Shanny way and just pick up an overpriced FA when Graham retires. It’s about building a team through the draft. He’s young, athletic, blocks and catches. Sounds like a possible future starter to me.
spring chickens?
If McDaniels doesn’t want to bring in any veteran free agents, why did he sign Buckhalter, Davis, Goodman, Dawkins, Gaffney, Hill, Paxton, and Jordan?
Creamy
Seriously – it doesn’t matter what I say. You want to be critical. That’s fine. If one argument is shown to not work, you just switch and complain some more. Sheesh.
Look, we’ve explored the fact that your argument on the front 7 doesn’t hold up well. On Quinn – I was one of the first to suggest that we needed to take a very good TE in this draft. Graham is of a certain age and they need to look down the road,, Scheffler is a great weapon and doesn’t block as well as we’d like (although that is changing, to give him credit). and Putzier isn’t that good (He never was). Quinn is a great blocker and has impressive hands from what we’ve seen – obviously, the coaches have seen more and they must like what they’ve seen. Why is that such a big thing? There were other teams looking to take him and we got him first. He was on the short list of players that we wanted so they drafted him.
These long arguments about how this or that guy wasn’t worth it don’t make sense. We need another quality TE to run multiple 2 TE sets. We got one. It’s a good thing. What’s the issue?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I am honestly baffled
I am not trying to be negative. I am not trying to be inherently critical. In fact I accepted your explanation for the front 7 in this very thread. If you read carefully, it was ten fiver who switched gears on the argument, not me. I was replying to his specific point.
My question (honest question, not criticism) stands. And no one has answered it yet.
Did the team have any greater need than an upgrade at 3rd TE/2nd string blocking TE that could have been addressed with this 2nd round pick?
If “these long arguments about how this or that guy wasn’t worth it don’t make sense.” then why do we even have a thread about it? I know it’s water under the bridge, I’m enjoying discussing the pick intelligently in this open forum.
I'd like to answer that question,
but it precludes the possibility of Quinn developing into a starter.
If you included that in your question I’d say, “Apparently the Broncos front office thought it was a good choice.” I suspect they know more than you or me. Really. I don’t think they are foolish.
Still, I appreciate the way you are looking at it (opportunity cost and all). I just have more faith in our FO and their ability to identify a player who really can contribute to Wins for the Broncos.
Good answer, NedB
Creamy, it comes down to this. I like to talk about the picks, and I’m not unwilling to consider that a mistake has been made. It just seems, at times, that the purpose of the discussion is to assume that Quinn, in this example, is merely a perennial second-stringer. That seemed to be how your argument frames him. Isn’t it reasonable to consider that Graham will not always start? What are the qualities that led them to choose Quinn to replace him? Assuming that they are fools, while interesting for a while, has, I admit, kind of grown a little wearisome to me at times, though I don’t mean to take that out on you.
I just don’t ‘get’ the idea that folks in the community are more wise and informed. That’s why I tend to look more at why they did something than arguing that they shouldn’t have. The reality, to me, is that they have made more informed decisions. I will say this – I never felt that way about the Shanahan days, until the last few drafts. Until them, it seemed more like darts on a blackboard and emotional decisions, and our problems with the draft seemed to bear that out. But the difference in how that used to go and what we now know goes into a pick should – and only, certainly, in my own thoughts – go into how to view, dissect and debate this.
However – it’s a big tent, and you are always civil. I appreciate that, even if I struggle to ‘grok’ the perspective at times.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
OK thanks Ned, broncobear, kdo, SWG
I appreciate everyone’s patience.
All of these are valid viewpoints on this topic, and I fully respect your opinions.
Bear, I am going to chew on what you’re saying about the idea that McDaniels might actually know what he’s doing…I admit that I have questioned his judgement but my opinion of him based on a lot of reasons, it’s not like he hasn’t done more than a few things that have raised some eyebrows not just with me but with a lot of people.
That being said, I am (of course) rooting for him, hoping I’m wrong and he’s right. I hope he is as smart as some people here think he is. I’ve always despised some of the groupthink that goes on in the NFL so if he has some new, fresh, even groundbreaking ideas then I’m all for it.
But the history of the NFL is strewn with coaches and FO guys who have made some mind-bogglingly bad decisions. Matt Millen is just the most obvious recent example, but there have been dozens of them over the years. Just because someone gets to the GM or coach position doesn’t mean they’re above doing a few dumb things :)
Of course all draft pick debates come down to “time will tell”. But thanks everyone for the interesting exchange of ideas in the meantime.
Creamy,
Don’t worry – you make a valid point. And I think all of us, as BB wrote, may at times get a little touchy with the constant criticism of McD and take it out on someone who is just trying to get a solid hold on some issue.
Whether you call this drinking (or not drinking) the Kool-aid or glass half full (or half empty), all of us are going to look at the team, draft picks, etc., from a certain perspective that many of us may not consciously have decided on, but a perspective that seems most reasonable and comfortable. It may be comfortable because we don’t want to think badly of the team or its chances, or because we are naturally optimistic or pessimistic – whatever. (And the great thing is that we have even spent some serious time looking at ourselves and how/why we are taking the views we are taking – MHR has truly become a very sophisticated site for so many reasons.)
I don’t want to speak for BB or others, but I think many of us, and certainly myself, have a sense that McD is a very sharp guy with a very sophisticated plan in mind for our team. Thus, we tend to look at the draft picks as – why would an intelligent person do THIS? Not in a negative way, but in order to uncover this guy’s thinking and with the expectation that we will find the “oh, now I get it” explanation, which will give us a better understanding about what the Broncos will be doing this year. Our assumption is generally that each pick was probably more good than bad, and we have to find out why. I am perfectly happy operating in this way until proven wrong. I reeeaaallly like this new coach and we reeeaaallly needed some “new” in Bronco-town.
Getting back to Quinn – I think McD may believe that the D is still a couple of years away from being really good and so we need to have a SCORING O to counter. With the D’s we face in the AFC West, McD may have considered Quinn essential. Or he may be considering getting rid of Graham, who is one of the more expensive people on our team in a year or so, without sacrificing production, and in the meantime we can do the 3 TE-set stuff. And, as to your question directly, this TE may have been more important than anything else he saw available at that point – O-line – check, RBs – check, QBs – check, WRs – check, no good D-line people available, LBs and corners – check —> how about Quinn? You never know.
But the one thing I feel is certain is that McD had a plan that had been carefully laid out and considered – and that Quinn was a result of that plan. Having said all that, he may not pan out – something that could be said for everyone out there. And that wouldn’t necessarily all be on McD. (Shanny took a lot of heat about Travis – but how are you ever going to guess that this guy has 50 kids with 60 different women?? Of course once it happens, you now start checking everybody out as a matter of course, but before you had the precedent, who the hell’s gonna know??? And he was a great RB in those first 5? games – lead the NFL, right?)
So, bottom line – it’s interesting and important to look at the “cons,” but most of us believe there is deep thinking behind the “pros” in each of these player decisions, and most at MHR love the Sherlock H’ing of what the little genius has got in store.
Peace! & go Broncos 2009
by dwinjapan on Jun 12, 2009 6:49 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good response dwin....
The way I’m chosing to look at it is this. I’m extremely happy with our Free Agent moves. They are all proven NFL players that represent an upgrade from what we had. I really like our coaching staff..also an upgrade. The draft is where I will with-hold my endorsements. I am one of those who believe McD knows what he’s doing and has a plan. That being said nobody knows how a draft pick will turn out. The only meaningful way to judge a draft before a season is to look at in terms of understanding. Ask the questions how well does this player potentially fit into McD’s pla?. Why was this move made? It’s about critical analysis and reading between the lines. What may not be obvious and seem questionable at first can and usually will be explained with research. So once the effort is made to understand the reasoning behind the moves the question becomes was the player the right one to pick and that will only be answered after a season or two. Do I believe McD knows what he’s doing yes. I have to because if he is a dummy, then trying to understand the moves of a dummy becomes a fools errand.
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jun 12, 2009 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Don't worry about it
My physical limitations got out of hand this week, and I was pretty crabby – with you in particular. I apologize.
Sure, there’s no shortage of bad decisions and kind of grab-butt approaches in the football world. I think that the evidence that McDaniels has an extensive plan is pretty substantial. Whether that plan will work or not – hey, that’s only to be seen and you could probably argue it either way.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I'm conflicted
I just don’t ‘get’ the idea that folks in the community are more wise and informed.
You don’t? See, what you fail to understand is that, had I been able to hit the curveball, I’d be in the major leagues right now. If coach didn’t have that grudge against me, I’d have gotten that scholarship to play football. If I would have been smarter, then I would have won the Nobel Prize. If I would’ve been a bit more like John Elway, then I would have been a bit more like John Elway.
I joke, but I must admit, I’m conflicted about this pick. On the one hand, as I’ve commented in other threads, I don’t buy into conventional wisdom, because I think the convention is flawed. And in that regard, I should love this pick.
But on the other hand, 19 tightends were drafted. Five were drafted in the first three rounds. Quinn was the second tightend drafted, only behind Brandon Pettigrew, who some thought was one-part Jesus, one-part Cris Carter and one-part Anthony Munoz.
I can accept getting rid of Cutler. I can buy trading next year’s first rounder to get Alphonso Smith in the second round. I can buy that Chris Baker and Everette Pedescleaux were supersecret draft picks that addressed the front seven. I can buy all that.
It’s hard for be to get excited about them picking a blocking tight end in the second round, even if he was the “best blocking tight end available.”
I find it even more puzzling when I reflect on the words Josh McDaniels used to describe Knowshon Moreno after the draft. He indicated it was easy for him to visualize Moreno being on the field for all three downs, suggesting he wasn’t willing to invest a high pick in a situational player. To me, Quinn seems like a situational player. True, I wouldn’t know who Richard Quinn was if he bought me a sub sandwich. And several have commented that he caught the ball when it was thrown to him. All 8 times.
At a position that always seems be kind of “flat,” I just can’t understand what they saw in Quinn that they valued so much.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 12, 2009 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Iagree completely
creamy, your skepticism is healthy. Every perspective is important to consider when trying to come to an accurate conclusion.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
It depends on McDs Priorities
My speculation in this post was that Red-Zone TD production was high on his list. In that case, with 3 TE sets being an important, viable, avenue…..No there wasnt any greater need that could have been met. My opinion based on observations.
I'm gonna wade in here carefully
Creamy – I think you raise a very valid point. As I understand it, the question you pose is essentially – did we really need another TE at that point in the draft when we have other needs? And, looking thorough the lens of the past the answer would probably be no.
I could be wrong, but I think the TE position is going through a transition. Back in the late 70s & early 80s a team could not be competitive without a duel threat TE. Dallas had Ditka then DuPree, Chokelan had Casper, we had Odems. Defenses could get so physical in coverage that you needed a TE to keep them honest. Winslow and Newsome were probably the last of this bunch.
Then the position evolved into mostly a 6th lineman. How many great TEs do you remember from the late 80s? Shannon Sharpe began a return to the duel threat TE – guys who could block and catch. Since about 2000 more and more teams have moved toward having 2 TEs, a run blocker (e.g. Graham) and a receiver (e.g. Scheffler).
But consider this; what if the position is evolving again? What if teams are starting to believe they need not a blocker and receiver TE, but two duel threat TEs? Sometimes they may want even 3 duel threat TEs? If teams start to need more TEs with a greater skill set, wouldn’t that alter the “true” value of those TEs (demand goes up supply stays the same, etc.)
In that scenario, is Quinn over valued, or a shrewd acquisition in advance of a league wide trend?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 11, 2009 11:07 PM MDT up reply actions
AWESOME
I Too believe that the TE position is evolving. Correct me if I am wrong, but IMO with the true FB disappearing from the formations, it is now more imperative to have TWO TEs that have the skill set of superb blocking as their strength AND also having the ability to be a good pass catcher. And if there are 3 TE schemes coming then QUINN is an asset on both counts.
Can’t wait to see the McDaniels offense!!
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
Easy
Veterans and Youth
Buckhalter, Jordan: Hillis, Moreno
Davis: Larsen
Goodman: Alsphonso Smith
Dawkins, Hill: Barrett, McBath
Gaffney: McKinney, Royal (he’s still young)
But ok, you got me on Paxton. I have no idea what that’s about, but hey, he’s a just a long snapper.
Locker Room Presence?
That is the only reason that fits in my mind of why Paxton is here.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
THe early evidence is that he
is a better long snapper than Leach was. Veterans have commented on how consistent he is, how every single snap is perfect. It probably stands out to them for a reason, which is most likely that, depsite how good leach was, paxton appears to be better. And since Paxton was a free agent, he is now signed long term while Leach was only going to be here until next year, when he would be a free agent.
What they paid Paxton was probably less than what they would have had to pay to keep leach next year, and they got the better of the two players, and have solidified the roster road map through the next or so years at the position early.
I think that the move makes a lot of sense, but that it isn’t high enough profile (not enough money or obvious impact value) to warrant the kind of debate that it has gotten. In any other offseason, it probably would have been ignored or accepted out of hand, I suspect.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 12, 2009 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for the Insight
I also have read from NE Veterans what a good locker room presence he was. It also does not hurt that he can be a supporter of McDaniels from day one; as the rest of the veterans learn to adjust to the new coach.
Again, another wise choice by McDaniels; Bronco’s get a better skilled player, a better contract situation, and a locker room supporter of the coach all in one
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
Good post KdO 09
I notice your initials are KO. You don’t have a neckbeard, do you?
"Remember, it's only a game."
Getting another TE was a good move
Prior to the last two drafts I have been a strong advocate of getting another TE, hopefully a blocking TE. I think that getting Quinn as the last pick in the 2nd was reasonable value. I didn’t know very much about him before the draft but he seems like a good building block for a program looking for team first players.
Bear in mind that I have been going bonkers over the play of the front 7 the last couple of seasons, Regardless, I still think that replenishing the TE talent pool was overdue, especially as Scheff has been injury prone.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
Articles like this....
get me damned excited for the year. Let’s kick the ball off already. I can stands all I can stands and I can’t stands no more. Let’s play some ball. Great post dude.
Excellent 1st post KdO
If this is how you are going to contribute here, you have set the bar high for an encore. As you can see by the amount of comments and Rec’s, you are very welcome here. Thanks for your input.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Nice post!
I certainly enjoyed it, but the numerous comments and active discussion make more of a compliment than I can!
Great post. Lots of intriguing discussion.
This makes our off-season fun!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Next Game
Web Stuff
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
