Time to Cut Bait?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 10:29 AM MDT
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Since the last poll on the Brandon Marshall situation was conducted, it's been reported that Marshall is officially skipping the team's mandatory minicamp in an effort to force the Broncos to renegotiate his contract. Given this new development, I thought it'd be interesting to see where people stand on the matter.
Before you vote though, I thought I'd offer up some additional stats to consider (compiled by another of my interns, Kimmie):
- Brandon Marshall ranked #1 in the NFL as a target with 181 "times thrown to" in 15 games. The Texans' Andre Johnson was #2, thrown to 170 times in 16 games.
- Brandon Marshall was #3 in the NFL in passes dropped.
- Brandon Marshall was #2 in the NFL in passes not caught with 77 in 15 games. The Browns' Braylon Edwards was #1 with 83 in 16 games.
- Brandon Marshall ranked #7 in the NFL among receivers in yards after the catch with 439 yards in 15 games. Interestingly, the Patriots' Wes Welker was #1 with 758 yards in 16 games. Eddie Royal, a Welker analog, logged 359 yards in 15 games.
In my opinion, the most interesting of these stats is that Marshall led the league as a target, numbers that validate my suspicion that Cutler was locking on and forcing the ball to Marshall at every opportunity. I think it would be interesting to review Marshall's gaudy statistics from last season through this lens. However, although it is Spandex Spaturday here at the office, we're all working a half day. So that research will need to wait.
I imagine I've already tipped my hand about how I'll vote in the poll below. I'm voting to get rid of Marshall if it comes to that. But it might not be for the reason you'd think. Sure, given these stats, I believe Marshall's talent might be a bit overrated.
That's not the primary reason that I'd like to get rid of Marshall, however. I don't believe that winning is everything, let alone the only thing. To me, character counts. I like the good guys. And, in my view, Brandon Marshall isn't easy to root for. I think he's immature, self-centered and has shown either an inability or a reluctance to learn from his mistakes. I won't go as far to say he's a jerk, because I don't know him personally and he, reportedly, has done some positive things in the community - when pressed. It's possible he's just a young man who's made some very stupid choices...repeatedly.
Where there's smoke, there's fire...most of the time. And there seems to be a ton of smoke surrounding Brandon Marshall. And I'm tired of it.
So, you'll notice there's no choice to wait him out. Even though that might be the best course of action. I'm curious as to whether the folks at MHR believe Brandon's talent offsets his silly behavior.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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One issue with the poll
You should add 4 answers instead of two, because in your question you ask two different opinions ;)
Am I fed up with Brandon? YES! Do I want to get rid of him…no let’s try to work this out :)
so it should be a YES/YES , YES/NO, NO/YES, NO/NO poll if you put the question like that in my opnion ;)
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
I didn't want people to hedge
Talking semantics here, but I don’t believe you can be fed up with anyone and want to keep them around. In my view, if I’m fed up with someone, they’re dead to me.
I wanted the poll to be polarizing and not give someone the option of being a mamby-pamby fence sitter.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
im sorry..
Im not being a ‘mamby-pamby fence sitter’, thats not what I am trying to say…
With English not being my first language I think maybe how I feel is annoyed or upset, but not in the sense that I want him gone. Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
no need to apologize
So, I guess given the options that are available to you, you’d vote no. You’re willing to put up with his crap if it means he can help the team win.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Brandon is a guy that no one should want gone.
period. You can’t expect to be a dangerous passing threat when you let your number one receiver go. Yes he has issues, but the fact that he met with Bowlen in person yesterday means he actually has interest in resolving it. Did Julius Peppers ever bother to meet with the Panthers owner? How about Boldin? Has he met with the Cards owner yet?
Marshall wants to be a Bronco. I believe that. As long as he wants to be here, assuming he can keep his nose clean, he should be able to play here. You don’t dump someone that feels as strongly as he does for our team.
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
We really don't know if Marshall wants to be Bronco.
Plus, I believe Eddie Royal should be our number one receiver. I know I’m likely in the minority here. But look what he did when Marshall was suspended last season. He made an All-Pro cornerback look like a total clown.
I might be wrong, but I believe that had Eddie Royal been the target of Jay Cutler throws 181 times last season, the Broncos may have one another game or two. I recognize this is total speculation.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Royal should be number one
Marshall caught 57% of the passes thrown to him. I can’t find the stats but I believe the corresponding figure for Royal was about 71%. Nuff said.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Not yet...
I just don’t think it is time yet, and maybe not ever.
Stray Comments
*I do want to give BMarsh at least one kudo. Except for the fact that he is holding out, he has handled the situation pretty professionally – no crying to the press, no inflamatory comments, very low key.
*I don’t think BMarsh is really the criminal type, but I cannot disagree that when there is this much smoke there is fire someplace. If he does not make some serious changes in his life he is going to end up in jail, but I think he could make those chanages. And a team full of character guys could really help him.
*I hate when players don’t fulfill their contractual agreements. And sometimes there are valid reasons for the discussion. Howerer, we should never know about the issue until the press release that says – the Broncos have extended BMarsh’s contract…
Not Yet
I think the value for BMarsh is probably near its low point.
*If the Broncos feel that he will rehab 100% then it might be better to consider trading him when they can demonstrate that he is healthy.
*Other teams don’t know what they have or don’t have yet. I think his value will rise as the season draws closer, and inevitable injuries create holes for teams.
*He is one heck of a WR. Perhaps this can be worked through quickly, quietly, and with both sides feeling OK, and we can bring him back to a team that might provide him some of the mentoring he needs in his personal life.
Not ever?
I think we need to be very careful setting more precedence that we trade any player that demands more money (we have the Cutler saga already). It puts too much power in the hands players. For the long term maybe it is just better to let him sit. It would send a strong message to the other players.
by Bronco Fan Doug on Jun 13, 2009 11:44 AM MDT reply actions
You're really overreacting
I think that Marshall is just fine with this team, he has been improving himself off the field, and what’s going on right now I don’t think is a big deal. I’d like to see how he fits in this new system first before I want to trade him.
"Really, I'm a high-motor guy. Tough, hard-nosed, a hard runner, can make you miss at times. And just competitive. I love to play the game and I bring that energy to my team. So, we'll see how that goes." - Knowshon Moreno
Knowshon Moreno is the boss!
That could be
It’s still very early and details are very limited.
I’m so fed up with this guy and the distraction he represents, I don’t think his talent justifies the trouble.
For me, I believe the most important aspect of this question is less about Brandon’s talent and more about his character. As I said in the original post, I don’t believe the Broncos should pursue winning at all costs.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I voted No
If things don’t work out, well I’m still a Bronco fan. I don’t wish to see him go. I’m not worried about setting a precedent, but I completely agree with BF Dougs stray comments.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
my vote was for no
i see where the frustration comes from but what do you expect from a WR who grossly out performed his contract
i just hope he isnt too head strong bc im pretty sure McD wont hesitate to move him if he starts to place his money before the good of the team
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
"Born like this / Into this"
too late
His behavior says he’s putting his money before the good of the team.
As for him outperforming his contract, he signed the contract.
Also, there’s no debating he had a great year last year. And the year before that. But consider that he led the league in reception attempts and that was despite missing a game. How many times did you pull your hair out last season when he dropped a catchable ball? How many times were you yelling at the screen last season because he was dancing around losing two yards because he was trying to get an extra three yards? How many times – and I’m sure this could be easily discovered – did you chuck your beer at the television because some defender knocked the ball out of his hand because he was trying to get another yard while holding the ball like a loaf of bread? Whew. Run-on sentence. My blood’s boiling just thinking about it.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
"As for him outperforming his contract, he signed the contract."
While technically this is true, NFL GM’s certainly have no problem disregarding players contract when it suits them.
by Streams Of Whiskey on Jun 14, 2009 5:28 AM MDT up reply actions
that's very true
But that’s the same way it is with any employer/employee relationship. Nobody’s making Brandon Marshall play in the NFL. I’m sure he’d be a great civil engineer. Or he could always play arena ball.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions
haha
yeah he had his moments but i think his place is in denver
the man is a beast and i just read that fanshot where rod smith says BM should talk to him so im still holding on to hope that it will all come together for ol’ marsh
and as far as my doing any harm to my TV, no way sir 63 inches of HD glory never deserves to be harmed no matter how catchable the ball was :)
btw i like the four oints you listed at the top of the post, thought provoking nice work
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
"Born like this / Into this"
by BroncoJoe311 on Jun 14, 2009 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I would also have to say "too late".
When you outperform your contract you place yourself in a terrific position to make top money when you resign. That used to happen mid to late in your final contract year. It seems that the club takes a chance on a player underperforming his contract, as well. I guess that I’m a “dinosaur”, but I believe that when I sign a contract I have given my word and my word is my bond… not simply when it is convenient to honor my commitment.
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
here we go again
First off we dont have all the facts. So yes lets pile on Marshall. Man, this crap is getting so OLD.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 13, 2009 1:16 PM MDT reply actions
you know what's getting old?
Brandon Marshall’s inability to keep his name out of the papers.
Also that big monument to Crazy Horse that still isn’t finished. That’s getting old.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions
no
Everyone jumps to conclusions BEFORE all the facts are it THAT is what is so old and tired. Nobody knows what was said, all we know is there was a meeting and Marshall left with boxes. Do YOU know for a fact he wasnt excused? No
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 13, 2009 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Of course I don't know
But don’t you imagine if he were excused that we’d know? The last thing this new regime wants is another Cutler fiasco. If they could, don’t you think they’d nip all this conjecture and speculation in the bud by saying, “Hey, Brandon told Mr. Bowlen that he doesn’t trust the Broncos’ medical staff and he wants to be under the supervision of his own doctors. And we’re okay with that. So we’ve excused Brandon from this mandatory camp so that he can go back to Florida. Oh, and those boxes he was carrying out, those were just filled with garbage from Mr. Bowlen’s office. Brandon said since he was going to pass by the dumpster anyway on the way out, he’d save Mr. Bowlen a trip.”
Do you understand how absurd that sounds? Are you incapable of reading between the lines here?
Regardless of what you think should or shouldn’t happen, I think Broncoland should begin preparing itself for life without Brandon Marshall.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 13, 2009 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions
didn't the guy who was working on it die?
and his kids were supposed to carry on the work, I think….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 14, 2009 2:06 AM MDT up reply actions
that's right
…and the kids are slacking.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I voted no.
He is an incredible athlete, & I think he will be our Randy Moss in this offense. We need his height in the red zone. I don’t think Eddie would be as productive as BMarsh as a #1 receiver. He was awesome that 1st game at Oakland, but he caught everyone by surprise, being new, with no film to scout him yet. Eddie is a great receiver, but I think BMarsh drawing the #1 corner every game, helps all the other WR’s produce. IMO, BMarsh deserves more money, but I would put stipulations in his contract, that protect the organization with regards to his character, & his legal woes. He is one hell of a talent.
+1 rg2247
Stipulations are the key to new contracts. Get it done Bowlen!
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
Another +1 to RG
I think it’s very clear that his play has far exceeded his pay. His level of talent and production puts him well over the $5 million a year mark, IMO.
Do I like the fact that he is holding out from camp to gain leverage in getting a better contract? Of course not, no fan does. However, I feel like we hold athletes to a strange moral high ground that I feel we ourselves couldn’t touch if put in the same position as these guys. Bmarsh being paid 2 mil a year is tantamount to a GM at a company getting paid what a receptionist makes, or something along those lines.
On another note, his injury and behavioral issues throw another wrinkle in… this is bad timing for him, it would have been great to see him wait another season until looking for a raise, and prove to the team he is willing to work and get better all around before doing something like this.
If the Broncos do work a new contract with him, they better have some stipulations of some kind in that contract. I don’t think McD and Xanders will go overboard on the new contract, if they do decide to do that.
I don't think it is time to cut bait
If it was me, I would tell Brandon that he will get a one year raise for this season, which is fair based on his production, but at the same time I would tell him he needs to show he is over his off field crap and if he produces well again next season and has no more incidents that we will put in a long term option to be kicked in if the Broncos and Marshall agree. What I don’t want to see is this whole my balls are bigger than yours attitude that was typical of the Jay and McDaniels issue.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
B man
that he will get a one year raise for this season, which is fair based on his production,
IMO, that is what Signing Bonuses are for. Not arguing, just making a statement. :-)
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
You have a valid point AJ
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
definate YES
Jerry, you said it best ‘where there is smoke there is fire’
This kid has not learned. Very immature. When he was drafted he got the nick name of Baby T.O. and I really cringed.
Well it is playing out.
Would I love to Have Brandon on the Broncos, yes. Pay him $7.5 per year. But with no bonus. He earns as he goes. That way when Goodell suspends him and he will at some time in the near future, there will be no future money wasted.
At this point, I think there are a lot of questions…. His body might not just be broke but Broke. Between the hip that he says was injured pretty much all season last year and the possibly permanent nerve damage in his arm, the Broncos could be taking a big risk by paying him before even considering his off-field issues.
If Jay was “forcing” the ball to Bmarsh then he was doing what alot of qbs do. Reggie Wayne gets the ball alot from Peyton and I don’t hear any complaints about that. Look, if you don’t want him to be your receiver then that’s fine, but don’t try to take away what he has accomplished. He made some bad life choices and I hope he bounces back. For all of us who seem to remember when we were young like Marshall: we may not have committed the same acts, but we were once “stupid” too. I was thrown out of a restaurant in college, but people didn’t drag it up everyitme they were mad at me. What he did is in the past and if you can’t leave the incidents alone then he NEEDS to leave. It’s not affecting our lives directly and we don’t know the entire story. If you decide that he doesn’t need tobe there …that’s fine. Leave him alone and let him go on with his life. Move to the next receiver. I will always support him and I hope he’s okay. May a beautiful ray of “hope” take him to new heights.
Needagoodtime!
I disagree.
Manning had been throwing to Wayne and Harrison and others, and is known for finding open targets. I’ve never heard the accusation that Manning has to force throws.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 14, 2009 5:15 AM MDT up reply actions
You’re entitled to disagree. if you don’t want him…leave him alone and let him start his life somewhere else. You are entlted to a team not a particular player. This is so OLD because first it was Jay then BMarsh… who’s next? There’s stuff going on that we don’t know about and if a player can get a ton of money out of a team more power to him. Before people talk about character for the player, we don’t know all the facts and this league’s wealth was partly built on players who were never fairly compensted and denied retirement benefits.
Needagoodtime!
by Loveforjoy! on Jun 14, 2009 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm confused by your unwavering loyalty
Your loyalty to Brandon Marshall is commendable, but completely confuses me.
I have no idea who you are, so I don’t know if you have any personal ties to Brandon Marshall. For instance, had I known Brandon Marshall all my life and we played Pop Warner together, then I’d take your position. But since I’ve never met Brandon Marshall and probably won’t ever meet him, my loyalty to him can and, in fact, has diminished to nearly zero.
For me, all Brandon Marshall has done is play well for a team whose success or failure has no real, material bearing on my life whatsoever. When the Broncos lose, it really stings. For reasons I don’t understand, Bronco losses can ruin my day.
I remember when the Broncos won their first Super Bowl, I still had to go to work the next day.
Brandon Marshall is completely replaceable. He’s not amazing. He’s just really good.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Uhm, Lovejoy?
I wasn’t making a point about Marshall, retirement benefits, or letting a player start somewhere else. I was only talking about Manning. All I said is that your comment goes against everything that Manning is known for, and I disagree.
If you still disagree with me, let’s talk about that (Manning). Everything in your recent comment is a radical change of subject.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 15, 2009 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
If I was Marshal I would show up to the manditory camps.
Shoe the coaches that everything is fine concerning the hip and somewhere down the road the pay raise will come. I don’t believe McDaniels is anyone to bluff, case in point cutler, didn’t take long to see him hit the road. If the hip is still bothering him I’m sure there is light workout duty. What bothers me is the fact that players hold out when they are under contract, and I know teams cut players anytime they feel it necessary but the team is who pays the salary too. Marshal will be rewarded if he does his job IMO.
I didn't vote
don’t really know why, but I will say that Marshall isn’t irreplaceable. With even a modicum of urgency he could be replaced in the offense with a solution that even the most jaded fan could grudgingly accept. And without any urgency I think we have the receiver corp to produce without him, but would need to address depth before the end of the season (or get lucky regarding injuries).
I think a solid, if unspectacular player who is a total square when it comes to any news outside of the football field has more actual upside than marshall at this point.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 14, 2009 2:14 AM MDT reply actions
I couldn't agree more
That’s why included those stats above. He’s flawed. But to read some of these posts, you’d think he was Jerry Rice.
It’s not like he’s unstoppable. He’s not Steve Smith. At this point, he’s not Rod Smith.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions
My thing about Marshall.
Folks often say “We don’t know the whole story”. We’ll here’s one story we DO know: Marshall is involved in trouble (legal troubles, holding out, etc) so much of the time that we have to hear “We don’t know the whole story” on a monthly basis. It’s getting old, fast. Cutler was a bad situation. Marshall has been a situation constantly going back to when he joined the team.
I like Marshall as a player. I hope he stays. But I didn’t vote in the poll. My thinking is that I hope he stays, but if he leaves I’ll feel a sense of relief that all of his problems are another team’s problem.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
I'll echo our Dutch friend up top that I think the poll needed more options.
Specifically, I am fed up with Brandon and I don’t think it is the TIME to get rid of him. That time may be nearing, but it isn’t here yet. That isn’t because I am “mamby-pamby” as you note above, it’s because I think the Broncos are holding all the cards right now with Brandon and I think the timing is wrong for getting rid of him.
could be
And some commenters have said that his value is at an all time low right now. And that’s something I hadn’t considered.
But timing aside…how sick of his crap are you?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Very.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 15, 2009 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions
The thing is...
I can understand Brandon being upset about the Bronco medical staff, and wanting someone else to do his surgery, but with a new coach and new scheme he needs to be in Denver attending meetings and at least watching the practices. He’s in no position to stage a holdout with his history of problems with the league and physical problems.
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
exactly
the team has to announce all OTAs (the voluntary camps) and mini-camps (the mandatory ones) right after the start of the league year (march 1st).. The players have a responsibility to look at their calendars and get dates and times cleared.
An actual surgery time could conflict, but obviousl that wasn’t the problem…
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 14, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
This is getting old..Leave these players alone. We don’t know all the facts with what happened to Jay and we don’t know all the facts that happened with BMarsh.
Needagoodtime!
We know one thing.
Marshall is not attending a mandatory camp. Nobody (Marshall or the team) has said he was excused. When someone is excused (like Kuper for his wedding) it gets announced.
What we know is that Marshall is not attending a mandatory function. He’s using up excuses pretty darned quick when nearly half of those polled (above) are ready to cut him loose. Talk about thin ice!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 15, 2009 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions
I will not leave "these players alone"
Being a season ticket holder, I have a RIGHT to demand and hold “these players” accountable. They are being paid by me and all the other season ticket holders. I am tired of BM’s antics . . . as has been repeated here already, “where there is smoke, there is fire.” I don’t care he is 24 years old. He is a man, not a child. He needs to live by our societies standards. Making excuses for his behavior (as some fans in here have done) is reprehensible. His behavior is the REASON I will not allow my kids to purchase or wear his jersey. I want my kids to “idolize” a quality player (i.e BDawk), not a guy that is in trouble with the law.
I voted “yes” because I think it is time the Broncos start bringing in character guys that me and my family can feel good about cheering for (I miss guys like Eddie and Rod . . . guys you couldn’t help but love). BM needs to get his act together or the Broncos need to get him out of here. Just my little opinion.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
obviously, I agree with you wholeheartedly
This whole “leave the players alone” attitude is completely mind boggling to me. No one says they have to play football. No one.
They owe us, the fans, everything. Everything.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 14, 2009 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions
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