The Brandon Marshall Debate - Some food for thought
by John Bena on Jun 17, 2009 9:30 AM MDT
in 2009 Denver Broncos Off-Season
Email
PrintI know, I know. I just can't help myself. It has been well stated that everyone here has a niche. Me? I try and get people to think. I'm not trying to pass my opinions on to you. That's the MSM's goal. No, I simply want to provide as many angles as possible in order for you to make YOUR OWN decision. No matter what you decide, at least you will be informed - and knowledge IS power.
Such is the case with all this Brandon Marshall nonsense. If you listened to MHR Radio last night you already know where this post is going. If you didn't, and you want to hear it, look on the right sidebar and you will see the player. Give it a listen.
First, if you haven't read it, here, in his own words, is Brandon Marshall's explanation for what is going on -
Clearing the Air…
To whom it may concern. Life is filled with change, and where I am in my life now change is probably best. It’s hard leaving an organization ran by one of the best owners in all of sports, and someone who’s been there for me through my ups and downs. The hardest thing was hearing Mr. B wish me luck in the future, but we both came to the conclusion that this is probably the best thing for me to grow on and off the field.
I thank the Denver fans who embraced my emotion and play on the field and showing me love every time I step outside my door.
It seems that Broncos fans are once again divided about what the Broncos should do, and of course, people are looking to lay blame. Let's start trying to piece together what is going on and what might happen.
First, for all of you blaming Josh McDaniels for this, please explain. This is a contract situation. This has nothing to do with McDaniels. I know it is easy, and convenient to lump all these situations together, but the Head Coach has nothing to do with why Brandon Marshall is not in camp.
We have talked about all the reasons Marshall is making a play for a new deal now. I'm not saying I necessarily blame him. The career span of an NFL player is short to begin with and they need to make a lifetime's worth of money when the gettin' is good. Marshall also knows he has a ton of risk associated to him, both on and off the field. Hell, we don't even know for sure he'll fully recover from his hip injury.
There is also the question of whether his production will drop off in the new offense. If you ask me there is no way Marshall puts up the numbers he did in 2007 and 2008. The Broncos offense is going to be much more balanced, getting all of the weapons involved. Marshall likely knows this after looking at the playbook and knows that it could hurt his long-term value should he wait until next season to get a new deal.
For some, that last paragraph might give you all the reason you need to hate on McDaniels. Some of you might believe the Broncos should make Marshall the focal point of the offense. Did that really work?
There seems to be a lot of doom and gloom in Broncos Country, and I am trying to figure out why. Should I join you?
In 2007, the Denver Broncos offense, with Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, finished 21st in scoring. The New England Patriots offense, run by Josh McDaniels, finished 1st. The Pats scored nearly twice as many points per game than the Broncos(36.8 - 20.0). I know, they had Tom Brady. Not fair, right?
Okay, in 2008, the Denver Broncos offense, with Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, finished 16th in scoring. The Patriots? They were 8th. The Pats scored nearly 3 points more per game(25.6 - 23.1). Sure, that's close, but does anyone here think, on paper at least, that the Patriots offense in 2008 had more talent than Denver?
Who would you rather have?
- Jay Cutler or Matt Cassel
- Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley or Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Jabar Gaffney
- Peyton Hillis and the Broncos' run game or Sammy Morris and New England's?
- Daniel Graham/Tony Scheffler or Ben Watson?
- Broncos O-Line or Pats O-Line?
With the exception of Randy Moss, you might take the Broncos in every category above. Yet, despite having more talent, the Broncos scored fewer points. Execution beats talent. The Patriots offense executed better than the Broncos, especially in the Red Zone.
The Broncos had a 'great' quarterback, a 'great' wide receiver, not to mention a top O-line, and two offensive masterminds in Mike Shanahan and Jeremy Bates, yet were out-executed by Josh McDaniels. McDaniels did more in New England with less.
Marshall did catch a lot of passes last year - 104 - but managed only 6 touchdowns. That works out to be less than 6% of his receptions. Conversely, Larry Fitzgerald caught 12 TDs in 96 receptions(12.5%). Calvin Johnson, playing on a team that went 0-16, scored 12 TDs in just 78 receptions(15.4%).
In 2007, it was much of the same. Marshall caught 102 passes and 7 TDs. Around 6% again. The top two TD receivers, Randy Moss(23.8%) and Braylon Edwards (20%) once again more than doubled Marshall.
In '07, Marshall averaged 13.0 yards/catch. That was good for 42nd in the League. In '08, Marshall dropped to 12.3YPC, good for 91st. Sure, many of his catches were highlight material, but where are the results??
If anything, I think Marshall could have a bigger impact in this offense, especially in the Red Zone, because his combination of size and speed is an asset in the McDaniels offense. The Patriots really didn't have a player like Marshall, and Marshall, despite being the Broncos #1, is not the same type of player as Randy Moss. How Marshall doesn't recognize what he could be this season baffles me, especially in terms of TDs.
So, with Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, the Broncos finished 15-17 over the past two seasons. The Broncos were 21st and 16th, respectively, in scoring. Why the doom and gloom? Where were the results? I know, the defense was to blame, right? I'd agree if the Broncos were getting beat 50-48 every week, but they weren't. The high-flying, prolific attack, centered around #6 and #15, scored fewer than 20 points 14 times the past 2 seasons. That is nearly half! The Broncos were a combined 2-12 in those games. Where are the points?
The past two seasons, with Cutler and Marshall and this prolific offense, the Broncos lost 11 games by 14 or more points. ELEVEN!!!
In 2007, they lost games by 18, 38, 37, 14, 18, 20
In 2008, they lost games by 14, 34, 21, 20, 31
In those defeats are losses to Detroit, twice to Oakland, Kansas City and 3 times to San Diego.
Is that progress?? Is that acceptable?? Of course not!
What the Broncos were doing before WAS NOT WORKING. Josh McDaniels, having studied the Broncos, both from afar and as the Head Coach, is setting out to change that, so I'll ask again, why all the doom and gloom?
This isn't Kool-Aid, folks. These numbers are real. They are numbers that directly relate to wins and losses. I'm open to hearing why the offensive execution was so bad while at the same time Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall were so great.
I stated last night on the show that the Broncos, should they trade Marshall, need to ensure they get talent for talent. To me, it starts with a 1st-round pick and a player. Any team that pays that price will likely want to work out a new deal with Brandon. I'll ask you, would you write a check today guaranteeing Brandon Marshall $20-$30 million?? It's easy to throw millions of dollars around when it isn't ours, but knowing the risks, on and off the field, would you write that check?
For the record, I want Brandon Marshall to be a Denver Bronco. I think he can be very successful in this offense, and I think the Broncos will reward him, WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT. As we sit here today, June 17th, the Broncos have no idea about the physical condition of Marshall. He needs to prove he is healthy. If he wants to rehab in Florida, fine. Come the end of July, however, he needs to show up and play football.
As for McDaniels, give the guy a chance. His track record, in terms of Super Bowl wins, getting production out of star players and getting production out of guys that never started a college football game, has earned him that.
178 comments
|
14 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Well written Guru...
DOOM! I would still like to see BMarsh return. I can only handle so much change before I go crazy…I’m getting it from my team and from my country. My head is going to explode soon. I cannot refute your facts, but I am an emotional guy and I still need a few more days to let me maddening frustration work itself through.
It’s hard to defeat logic, but I am not very logical right now. I did vote yes though, so I suppose that is a step in the right direction.
I am also pissed off that BMarsh’s moderator refused to allow my comment to post. Apparently, only pro-BMarsh comments are allowed. No kicks in the balls are apparently allowed…talk about an ego stroking self-serving blog. Now THAT should be worthy of complaining about…not what goes on here at MHR.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
haha
I can’t really blame them for not posting your comments — it is his own blog =)
I didn’t think a trade would happen [and still not real sure it will], but I still think we need a #1 WR [royal is a bit short for my taste as a #1, although I love everything about him].
My main problem, and possibly yours, is that I wasn’t really thinking about the issues having anything to do with the offense before. The defense can’t be held accountable for the offense not being able to get the ball in the endzone [well, sometimes it can I suppose]. So then you have to say well was it the playcalling or the players. That was my approach so I was happy they got rid of the playcalling. The flaw in my approach was I always thought, “OR” instead of “AND / OR”.
by Todd Jewell on Jun 17, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Interesting point
I still think we need a #1 WR [royal is a bit short for my taste as a #1, although I love everything about him
Me too, but Steve Smith, whom he reminds me of, seems to do well. I love Marshall’s size – just not the size of his football heart. While I have no insight as to why he’s behaving oddly (again), I suppose that we can look for another big guy. There are worse things than having Royal as a #1, though
Hillis/Moreno in '09
#1 Receiver?
Todd, I’d ask what the term #1 receiver means. While many fans think of Randy Moss as NE’s #1 receiver, Wes Welker has had more receptions than Moss in both seasons they played together.
In a WCO you’d like to have a receiver who can force the safeties to stay back and keep the D out of tight coverage, or penalize them if they do play tight. But I think that’s less of an issue in the modified run-n-gun that I think McD is installing (a traditional R-n-G doesn’t use the direct snap). Most of the plays I expect us to use will involve one or two force receivers coupled with multiple read receivers. The force receivirs run their routes to expose the coverage. The read receivers then adjust based on the coverage.
Royal has all the makings of being the most dominant read receiver in the game. He runs impeccible routes, has great hands, and is scary dangerous after the catch.
Given those traits, Scheffler, Gaffney, or Jackson could all serve the force function.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 17, 2009 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Is our spread going to have elements of WCO?
by my understanding, the concepts in the spread are a bit different, and hinge on being very “counter-movish” to defensive tactics without tipping their hand (if my butchering of the terminology makes any sense).
I suppose the quick and short passing game might have similar features, but it seems like it might be stemming from different presnap procedure…
Help me out here X’s and O’s guys…
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions
The passing game in the WCO
at least Shanahan’s version, is primarily predicated on play-action and 3-step drop plays with a smattering of 5-step drops. Preferably you stay out of situations that require a 5-step drop. The 3-step plays require the QB to be under center.
When the QB is under center he receives the ball with the laces in position. That’s actually a lot of what makes a good center. You can compensate for a mediocre blocker, but the guy has to place the ball into position to pass. When the QB is in the shotgun he doesn’t receive the ball in position to pass right away. The time it takes to receive the snap and reposition the ball precludes running 3-step plays from the shotgun.
While McD has said we will use some under center formations, I expect about 65% of our plays to come from the shotgun. So while we may still run some of the quick passing game, I expect that to be greatly diminished. But we weren’t running as much of the 3-step game last year either.
I don’t think the new offense will look that different from last year to the average fan. Except we will run a lot more. I look for a 50/50 mix of run pass. But the pass plays will look similar. The big difference is the adjustments the players will have to make presnap and during the play.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 17, 2009 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions
personnel package expectations?
at the risk of derailing this fine topic, quick thoughts on our standard packages if we run shotgun `60%+? 4WR and 3WR? Who are our base personnel? Should make for some fun preseason watching, since I don’t think they have a lot of luxury to bluff this preseason….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
in the shotgun I expect to see a lot of “heavy spread.” Look for a lot of 2-WR/2-TE sets using Sheffler and/or 2-WR/1-TE/1-Wingback (Hillis).
These packages crate a real dilemma for the defense; if they stay base package we can split Hillis/Sheffler out wide creating essentially a 3-WR set. If the defense goes nickle we pound them with the run. They can go big nickle but they still have to decide whether to bring a S up or stay back. On top of that, they have to account for Moreno/Buckhalter.
Putting the defense in a dilemma is what McD is all about.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 17, 2009 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions
This could be a great opportunity for one of the young receivers
It’s a rare thing that a rookie receiver does much in the NFL and I doubt that McKinley will be a huge factor, but there’s no denying that the kid has a lot of talent. Most rookie WRs have substantial troubles in two areas – the massive playbook and the predominance of press coverage, with the speed of the game tossed in for good measure. McKinley isn’t the most physical of receivers, so it may take him a year or two to learn the trade. Still – you never know.
But Jabar Gaffney has a chance to do something here – he’s always been a decent WR and he already knows the essential playbook, so he could flourish even though he’s not truly a ‘young’ receiver. Chad Jackson though, has the best chance of his career to show that he’s been worth the effort that’s been put into him. Brandon Lloyd isn’t that young at 27, but he also has a great chance to show that he’s NFL quality. Orton is used to him, he has great hands and now he needs to show that he has the mentality to be a solid contributor. Even Matt Willis and Lucas Taylor have a shot (Is Nate Swift still with the club? I thought he was dropped, but he’s still on the Broncos website.)
Hillis/Moreno in '09
watching the safety
should be ahuge key. Also, I’m thinking that the outside defenders (OLBs or nicklebacks) will end up being huge keys as well. See em starting to cheat in to stop Moreno and Hillis? Spread out or quick fire. See em hedging towards the receiver? Keep the running play call on!
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 19, 2009 3:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Great comparisons information
Wow when you step back away from emotions and look at the whole picture it kinda smacks you in the face, that was great research whichs allows Bronco fans to be better informed! The best point of all of this is Brandon Marshall fully recovered. For the money the Broncos will have to spend are they getting the Brandon from the first half of the season or the Brandon who couldn’t pull away from the defense during the last half of the season. If you look at it from the business end do you spend alot of cash to secure a player that might never come back from hip issues, if he comes to camp you can at least evaluate his condition. Are the dropped balls an issue still or was that brought on by slow healing of his arm injury during last season. Then the last item all Bronco fans, we have to think about how he comes out in the trial, will he be suspended again, will there be more incidents in upcoming months or years. I have always supported Brandon during these incidents but they need to stop. The best plan of action is to sit on him, make him show up evaluate him see how he performs during the season and then show him the money, until that happens it is all just words!
ahh yes
truthiness i love it, right now im watching NFLN trying to dissect what is happening and all i hear is “denver had the second best offense last year”
i voted yes but i would take a serviceable player on defense too
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
"Born like this / Into this"
Good Point...
A defensive player would be a plus. It seems the vote is going a certain direction, a little more one sided than I thought….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
I Think People
are getting tired of this crud and after trading away your QB are more open to the idea.
I was thinking that once Marshall is gone are there any other “troublemakers” on this team?
I really can’t think of any…
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
addition point..
I know I was already thinking he was going to be suspended for a quarter of the season anyway — so it has definitely helped me care less about the situation.
by Todd Jewell on Jun 17, 2009 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions
You Think?
I would go out on a limb and say that Marshall gets a weak or no suspension this year and recovers sufficiently to regain his performance.
AND I would Still trade him if he wants out.
I could be wrong though, that is why it is an unknown.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
sorry =)
going into the offseason I was under that impression — right now I am uncertain.
However since has already had a four game suspension reduced to one game, I don’t think the league could give him anything less than a four game suspension for his next offense. If someone has the league penalty rules please let me know =)
by Todd Jewell on Jun 17, 2009 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions
A lot of us see it as double jeopardy
But he still has a court date on two charges and could be suspended again if he’s found guilty
Hillis/Moreno in '09
The vote is one-sided becuase the question is one sided
no offense, but no one’s going to give the broncos a serviceable WR and a #1 for Marshall, given his health and suspension risks. so if someone was foolish enough to do so, I say jump on it! A better (and harder) question is, would you trade Marshall for a #1 alone, or perhaps a #2 and a serviceable player
Belief is accepting something because you’ve been convinced to do so, whether you like it or not. Faith is accepting something because you want to accept it.
by Hercules Rockefeller on Jun 17, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
If no one will do it...
Then you don;t trade him. Just because Marshall wants out, and Bowlen said the Broncos will try to accommodate, doesn’t mean you simply give him away.
The Broncos have the leverage, not Marshall, so if you can’t get talent for talent, make him play!
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
+1
That sums up my feelings quite well. The Cutler thing made sense given that situation…and we got what we wanted for him (I said it way early…2 1sts and a player).
Marshall is worth a #1 and a decent player hands down. If we don’t get that, he can eat bench.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
I agree with this
i was on the fence with the poll. I went with no because 1. I think we should let him holdout since he will undoubtedly cave in when the season starts (and I also think a precedent needs to be set that the FO can’t be pushed around) 2. I don’t think we need another serviceable WR. I think we should get either a stud no.1 wr or a stud defensive player or multiple good picks.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
I mostly agree with what you said above...
The only thing I would argue is that it would be nice to combine the talent we had last year with McDanials. I think that offense could have been special. Obviously, McDanials brought a different attitude to the locker room— the country club vibe is gone as you said last night. If that’s what drove Jay Brandon out of town, then good riddance. The whole thing is just unfortunate.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
This is Such
a fascinating study. We so often hear teams proclaim a desire to be team first and to win but are they ever willing to pay the price. I think Denver is showing this year how difficult it is to build a team first attitude and why so many teams fail. The guts to sacrifice a “Franchise QB” and your “#1 Receiver” at the altar of the team is incredible.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
by Kfustud on Jun 17, 2009 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
First Round pick is just unrealistic
I’m sure everyone knows the reasons. We’ll be lucky to be offered a second round pick and of course there is the possibility of a trade involving a player that some other team can’t get signed, that’s fine but it will cost us. I say wait it out, let him get nervous and then offer a deal that lets Brandon save face. He’s worth the risk.
I agree
I think conditional picks are more likely. I think maybe a guaranteed 2nd and a few conditionals, or a player and conditionals. But who knows – maybe one of the WR poor teams will take a gamble.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 17, 2009 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Two 2nds then
I like that better anyhow. Agree with SWG that conditionals are likely to be a part of the deal regadless.
Didn't the Seahawks trade a first for Branch from NE?
And that was during the summer too i think. Marshall is definitely worth more than Branch
great post guru & rec'd
Thanks for concisely putting into words what myself (and I’m guessing a lot of others) were feeling.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Don't know what to think
There are so many good reasons to keep him, there are also so many reasons why it would be smart to trade him. I guess time will only tell.
Rec’d
"Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for to many men on the field?" - Jim Bouton
I just think
He should stick with the “4500 yds and no wins”(paraphrase) attitude that he had previously. I would like to think that he would value a Super Bowl Ring more than Money. There is always the Pro Bowl to stroke the ego.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
I agree this is all about money. Everything was great when the Denver FO was talking about giving him his contract extention. Then Brandon drops the ball, pun intended, and now the team is not as willing to give him the money he wants.
Brandon wants to get the money he has earned on the field, but he has been his own worst enemy off the field. He wants a clean slate and a new contract, but we know him and his issues.
It is like trying to get a raise at your current job, were you are the best producing employee.
You are an asset to the company, but the cops have come and arrested you at work a couple of times infront of all of your customers, and your crazy girlfriend keeps calling and hanging up and makings scenes at work and around town.
You have also done a few things that only a few people know of, like the copy machine thing and that practical joke that went wrong.
You want to get paid, but your current employer knows that you have issues that will derail your productivity sooner or later if you continue what you are doing.
Your employer stills loves you, and wants you to stay. They say that they will give you the money you deserve after a year of clean living, and similar work production.
You don’t want to wait.
Your only chose is to look to work someone else that is only interested in productivity, and will pay for it. You don’t have a record, all charges have been dropped. Well you have a DUI, but you explain that you were going thru some tough personal issues and that you have learned your lesson.
They are only concerned with the productivity because they haven’t had to put up with all the off the field junk that comes with you.
Denver holds the cards in situation, and we need to hold the line on it. We should give Casey his raise because he is doing the right thing with his situation. We can not just trade Brandon away for even a fair market deal, in my opinion. If we trade him away for a fair market deal, who is next? We become weak, and one of these places were players get drafted by and then leave and where old players come to get that one last paycheck.
The real reson he wants out?
I don’t know, but I don’t see how it could be either wanting a new contract or not liking the new system. As to a new contract, is any other team more likely to give him a fat new contract with his hip and hand injuries; his legal difficulties; his possible suspension: etc. As to the new system, I agree with Guru that Marshall could excel in this system. He may not catch 100 balls, but if only 70 are thrown to him and he catches all 70 and adds a lot of YACs, any other team looking at him when he becomes a free agent will realize he’s a great WR, and make him an offer commensurate with that.
So, what is his problem?
Growing older is not for sissies. Jack Palance
A trade won't work until...
he proves his hip is healthy and he’s ready to go. Any attempt at a trade would end in futility if his hip has not healed. This whole mess is a mute point ‘till then. We can speculate all day, but, in the end it really comes down to that hip and his physical well being. The off field stuff is just baggage he’ll have no matter where he is. So there is risk in keeping Marshall as well as trading. Timing is everything and this is premature
Trade Physical
At least it would bring to light how he is doing. If he passes we get a good trade if he fails then we can look him in the eye and say that we tried and he has no value. At that point he might be willing to play for us this year to prove himself again.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
yes
but i rather have the patriots defense over ours
which is why they win games
and orton and cassel are on completely different levels
so i see this as a false analogy
we have seriously downgraded on our qb
and we have a terrible defense unsuited for the 3-4
but im sure in a few years well get it together
I'm not making any comparison between Orton and Cassel
The Patriots had a more efficient offense in 2008 than the Broncos despite not having as much talent. That is my point.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
How much of that was Jay and Brandon's fault?
Isn’t it the coaching staff’s responsibility to turn talent into points? Comparing the talent and efficiency of NE or Chi offense to Denver’s is an indictment on Mike, not Jay and Brandon. I thought we solved the efficiency problem when we let Mike and his stale, 15 year old offense go. I don’t see how letting Jay and Brandon go will help the offense run more efficiently, unless you argue that they would simply refuse to buy into the new offense.
The “refusing to buy in” argument is very different than the “efficiency” argument, and it has a lot to do with both players leaving. A big part of what made (makes) NE so great is a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to this me first BS. If you don’t buy into what they are doing, you’re gone. If you hold out for more money while under contract, you’re gone ( see L. Milloy, or D. Branch).
I think this team-first mantra was the main reason Jay was traded, but I think Brandon is a different story. Maybe I’m reading into the “moving on is the best thing for me as a person” line from yesterday as it’s pretty standard mumbo jumbo, but to me that might be getting at the Darrent Williams tragedy a little bit. I can’t imagine how tough it would be directly involved in such a terrible tragety and continue to be around it every day.
I wonder how big of an effect Darrent’s passing still has on the franchise? Javon Walker was out of here right away. DWill’s best friend on the team was surprisingly traded after a supposedly strong training camp last year. Now you have Marshall and Bowlen agreeing to part ways virtually out of nowhere. Maybe Brandon and Mr. Bowlen mutually agreed that the totality of the whole situation— getting out of Denver, the distrust with medical staff, and the contract situation— warranted a clean break.
Obviously, pure speculation here, but I’m trying to wrap my head around this…
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Jun 17, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
none of it is Jay or Brandon's fault.
I believe the point of the statement was to blame the coaching, this is just an argument that a good coach with less talent made better results.
Maybe I misheard it,
but the argument on the MHR Radio podcast (and to a lesser degree above, although it’s still implied) was: the offense that Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall led didn’t score all that many points, so why is everyone so upset that these two guys will no longer be with us in 2009? My point is the same as your point JAL, that argument is a coaching argument. To me, the best case scenario would be bringing in McDanials to coach the uber-talented offense we had in place last year.
Obviously, that didn’t happen. I still think the offense will be good, if not great, in 2009 without Jay and Brandon, precisely because McDanials has such a strong track record (very similar to Shanny when he came from SF in fact). Moreover, the offense is great up front and still has great weapons— Moreno, Hillis, Royal, Scheffler, Stokes, Graham, etc. I just feel that if Jay was the QB and Marshall was outside with Eddie, this offense had the potential to be one of the best ever under McDanials.
It’s just too bad that it didn’t happen.
"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley
by ButteBronco on Jun 17, 2009 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I think the argument the way I heard it....
Was not to buy into all this “We are losing 2 Pro Bowlers!”. Pro Bowl is a frickin popularity contest, and anyone that thinks BM and Jay were 2 of the best in the AFC are insane. Pro Bowlers…not All Pro.
There were questions on the staff last year that were brought up, but the character and team play of jay and BM have to be looked at…..Jayt threw away 3 games and BM was conspicuous by his absence those last 3 games. All Pro players step and WIN games for their teams.
AND…..Cutler and BM put up good numbers against weaker opposition. BM in particular had ZERO TD’s vs teams with a winning record…ZERO.
The best way to summarize was when we Guru….we are talking about Jay (17-20 record) and BM (Low number of TD’s and struggles against GOOD opposition)….not losing Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.
Peace!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Pro Bowl Popularity
I was just thinking about this but if you REALLY liked your team you wouldn’t want them going to the pro bowl because it allows your team more value for the talent they have.
This makes me laugh at Washington where the fans vote to send their undeserving players to pro bowls and get their market value above their actual ability.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
The players get some of that blame....
Their job is to play, period. These two want something more than that and I’m sorry, a bunch of yards, losses and losing seasons doesn’t entitle anyone.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Jay Cutler threw 25 TDs compared to Cassel's 21 TDs
The Patriots were able to score 21 rushing TDs, the Broncos 15.
Total TDs for the two teams were Pats 42 and Broncos 40. This is not a significant difference, especially since Denver played New England in week 7 and the weak Denver defense gave up 5 of those 42 TDs while the New England defense surrendered only 1 TD to the Broncos. You could make the argument that if Denver had a better defense, Shanahan’s offense would have outscored McDaniels’ offense.
I also don’t buy the argument that New England got “better results with less talent”. New England is this decade’s dynasty team, 3 super bowls, coming off a 16-0 season, great defense and special teams play… the talent on offense might be comparable, but as a team New England is simply leaps and bounds above Denver.
I think it’s clear, looking at the numbers, whether you score 40 TDs or 42 TDs, if your defense and special teams are bad you’re still going to lose games. If you then trade away your pro-bowl QB and possibly your #1 WR and spend 6 of 10 draft picks on offensive players, including another QB and another TE, a WR and two offensive lineman to join the ranks of the supposedly already stacked offensive talent pool while your defense sits wallowing in its own terribleness… how do you think you’re going to win more games? By scoring 2 more touchdowns over the course of the season? I don’t buy it.
It’s not like Denver gets to play against its own defense to rack up 5 TDs in one game.
1. True
2. Not True
3. True + Not True = Not True
4. Unknown, ask again Later
5. Not Ture
6. True
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
by Kfustud on Jun 17, 2009 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
hmm
thats true but so many things on offense falls on the qb
and ORTON?
i threw up right there when i heard he was our starting qb
we all know hes not going to be our starter for long
we are going to have to find a new starting qb for the future
I didn't know he won't be our starter for long.
Thanks for be my mouthpiece and telling everyone else what I know and don’t know. I appreciate it.
This is right along the lines of "trolling"
This is a comment that seems to only bash a player for no reason without backing it up. Orton may very well suck something fierce next year, but we like to back things up with facts or at least educated opinions here.
Wow.
Orton had lesser WRs, and a lesser OL. Yet he had better stats (and more wins) than Cutler.
I’ll agree that Cutler may have more potential. But Orton is much more efficient.
Efficiency wins ballgames, not potential.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2009 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions
>>>>>>>
Who would you rather have?
* Jay Cutler or Matt Cassel
* Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley or Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Jabar Gaffney
* Peyton Hillis and the Broncos’ run game or Sammy Morris and New England’s?
* Daniel Graham/Tony Scheffler or Ben Watson?
* Broncos O-Line or Pats O-Line?
With the exception of Randy Moss, you might take the Broncos in every category above. Yet, despite having more talent, the Broncos scored fewer points.
>>>>>
I don’t know that I would agree that in 2008, McD did more with less talent as you’ve stated…
WRs – edge to NE, but not by much
TEs – based on just 2008, I’ll give it a push
RBs – not sure that’s anything more than a push, our RBs were too injured and NE averaged more than 30 yds rushing per game than Denver
We all need to do what we can to make this drama filled offseason easier for us, but it’s bordering on insanity right now.
______
Mile High Mania
by Mile High Mania on Jun 17, 2009 10:46 AM MDT reply actions
You forgot the respective QBs and O-lines . . .
Even if the items you pointed out above are a push, QB is not, and neither is the O-line . . . the two most important positions on the offense. So Guru’s suggestion still holds . . .
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
i disagree (you can't really compare RBs)
Our RB injuries alone affected much of the play calling especially in Red Zone.
Had we discovered Hillis’ talent in preseason and named him starter at the beginning of the year and he stayed healthy. I think we would have scored quite a bit more than NE (with Cassel) last year.
of course that’s a lot of what ifs.
It's not that definitive to me
I didn’t forget them. Are you truly prepared to say Cutler is dramatically better than Cassell? Cutler had a ton more yards and attempts, but only 4 more TDs… a great deal of that was from the fact they were playing catch up. Yes, Cassell was an unknown, but in 2 seasons, they could very well be equals – we don’t know yet.
Compare the QBs on production and wins and it’s not as clear cut for Jay…
______
Mile High Mania
by Mile High Mania on Jun 18, 2009 4:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Cassel was playing on a team with DYNASTY TALENT
the same team went 16-0 the year before and set every single season scoring record known to man. Cassel doesn’t get credit for the 11-5 record, he had a lot more help from his supporting cast than Cutler ever got in Denver.
Now Cassel is on the Chiefs, and as far as I’m concerned, his evaluation period starts week 1 of 2009.
and as far as that goes
I feel the exact same way about McDaniels. We’ll see what he’s made of starting this September.
I don't know--The last couple of years, every time BM was in the news,
I would get this pit in my stomach, oh man here we go again.
Well this kid ever grow up.
The last couple of years (IMHO) Its been the jay & brandon show with the supporting cast
the denver broncos.
I’m sorry guys, but I think football is a Team sport.
I’m glad what Shanny & Co. did for the Broncos—I’ll forever be gratful for getting the SB monkey
off our back—-but its time to move on…
Frankly I’m glad to see McDaniels put the “T” back in TEAM.
My Soap Box is also availble to anyone else, should their be a need….
GO BRONCOS
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
First and formost I want Brnadon here
but I want a team. I cheer for the name on the front not the one on the back. Maybe another #15 in Denver needs to sit down with this kid and explain what happens when a TEAM mentality permeates your locker room! Can anyone else say Western Conference Finals for the first time since ’85?
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
"We should have kept Seattle and dumped San Diego from the Division"
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
BM is too big of
risk with his constant off-the-field issues. Imo, a new contract should be out of the question. Why reward a walking time bomb, who could very easily end up in prison. The Broncos should just say no on the contract at this point in time. If he shows that he’s capable of obeying the law for an extended period of time, then the contract can be addressed again.
If on the other hand the Broncos are able to trade BM for at least a 1st round pick + a servicable player, they should take that deal. Anything less and no trade BM, report to camp.
Past often is prologue
Brandon is almost certainly going to do something else, this season, to create trouble in his own life. He rarely goes more than 1/2 year without some other foolishness, and he seems oblivious to the outcomes. I thought that it was interesting that many of the stories about him include him in Shanahan’s office swearing that it would never happen again. They had a ring of truth, for what that’s worth.
There certainly is the need to get good value for him. I understand it when folks say that the FO needs to show that they can’t be pushed around, but there’s a lot to be said, in a new set of systems, for tossing those who cannot or will not buy into the goals of the system. Marshall clearly, for whatever reasons, falls into that category
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Agree. Trade
Marshall is becoming our own Pacman Jones and becoming a cancer on the organization with his physical women abuse issues and future court cases still pending.
Well, agree and disagree
It seems like we seem to judge the offense in a bubble, we lost games not just because of the offense but also due to one of the worst defenses in the league, how good was the Pats offense because they knew they had a defense that could stop someone. When you can actually get the ball back with decent field position and not pinned back from a kickoff then you have a higher ability to score. While I agree talent wise Peyton Hillis is better than Sammy Morrise, we only had Peyton Hillis for a limited amount of time, it is hard to develop a consistent running game when you are starting guys off the street, that forces a team to be one dimensional and in time the offense will suffer, especially in the red zone if there is no running threat. That is not Brandon or Jay’s fault.
I do agree that there are a lot of risks hanging out there for BM, and I agree I probably wouldn’t be itching to sign him to a long term deal before the season. I would look at giving him a pay raise for this season since I think he has outplayed his contract with some guarentee of a long-term deal if he met certain goals.
While I think it would be nice to get a 1st rounder and a player, I think that is a pipe dream at this point. No team is going to accept those risks and give up a 1st rounder and a player, they would be foolish. Right now I think if we could get a second rounder we may be lucky, I seriously think a third rounder will be the likely scenerio. If Randy Moss fetched only a 4th rounder, I can’t see a WR with a injury and contract issues and off the field baggage fetching anything higher than a 3rd.
I agree that I want BM to be part of this team, I think he makes the team better this year and for years afterward if he keeps his head on straight. I do not think this team will be better losing BM.
I agree that you can not blame McDaniels directly for this, but it does concern me when the coach can’t connect with his star players to have them buy into the system and want to play for him. What also concerns me is guys like BM and Shefler staying away from the training staff in Denver, there definately seems to be a lot of concern with the players in having the staff work with them.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
The Patriots had many of the same issues..
and lost the MVP of the League in the 2nd quarter of the 1st game.
The defense isn’t the reason the team scored 19 or fewer points 14 times in 32 games the past two seasons.
People want it all. They blame McDaniels for the Cutler mess and now the Marshall mess, yet they were not the cause for an offense that became inept in big games and the Red Zone. It is one or the other.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
I think you have to look at it in a two way street
Granted the offense had struggles, as any offense would with a 3rd year QB, young WRs, and a revolving door at the RB position, not to mention basically a new starting offensive line, but the defense did not help them out. When the Patroits lost Brady, they wre able to let the defense control games and play a ball control offense with a number 2 QB and be successful. This team could not sit there most games and say, we will play it safe and figure the defense can stop them, they had to be agressive and try to get as many points as possible. I would say redzone effeciency gets biased when you look at what the effeciency was when we had Hillis and Pittman healthy and running since they could get tough short yards in the red zone versus when we did not have those guys in the game. The other thing to look at is turnovers, when you are bottom of the league getting turnovers that does not help your offense, and yes I understand when you give the ball away, it is not any help to the defense.
All of those items I don’t think you can blame McDaniels for, and I don’t. Like I said what concerns me is his inability to get the most talented players to buy into his system. What I would of liked to hear out of Jay and BM is that we met with McDaniels, we understand his vision of this team, and we are on board with him, we understand where we need to improve, we will work toward those goals, and we look forward to being better players and having a better team. You can say that is personel issues with Jay and BM, but you will have individual issues with every team and part of being a good coach is being able to understand how different players are motivated and work and being able to connect with them, to get them to believe in what you are preaching.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
You can't blame McDaniels because Cutler and Marshall didn't buy into his system.
A coach can’t force a player to buy into his system. It just isn’t possible. McDaniels system stresses the team aspect and execution. Apparently, Jay and Brandon think it is more important for them to get their stats. McDaniels, Cutler, and Marshall all want to win, but their approach to winning is not the same.
I think it IS telling that “star” players are having a hard time buying into McDaniels’ philosophy. It is telling us that the Broncos will most definitely be a team and not individuals looking for individual glory. Most, not all, high profile “stars” are not going to like that philosophy, especially early in their careers, because it diminishes their earning power (less stats, less money. That is the way the business works).
It comes down to respect for the players
I am tired of this old hat it is some magical “team” concept that McDaniels has brought. Everybody runs a team philosphy, the ability of a coach to get the players to buy into their approach reflects their ability to effectively communicate with the players. You act as if Jay and BM were only about themselves, they have been playing football all their lives and I am sure they understand that the success of the team will lead to their success, I doubt any of them would be like well I want to get these stats regardless of wether or not the team wins. They know if the team wins it doesn’t matter what their stats are, I think they just don’t believe in what McDaniels is preaching.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Don't you remember Shanahan constantly preaching the importance of individual stats?
I definitely remember him telling his WR they did not need to block downfield and I remember Marshall being psyched to hear that.
/sarcasm
I completely agree with you that stressing “the team aspect and execution” is more like the norm than the exception in the NFL (and I thank you for saying it in a family friendly way).
Yes
Everyone talks the team philosophy talk but who actually does it? When push comes to shove who has the guts to stand against a star who doesn’t want to play into the team philosophy and face the criticism.
Very few are willing to face the “You got rid of him for that? He is such a talent you should have made it work.”
However, those that do I think win out in the end. It isn’t the best players, it is the right players.,
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
The choice you offer is not black and white
Very few are willing to face the "You got rid of him for that? He is such a talent you should have made it work."
If you can improve the team without making it work then so be it. But if making it work ends up making the team better, then yes you should make it work. Both Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick understand that. The most obvious example is Lawrence Taylor when Parcells and Belichick were coaches for the Giants, but there are others as well. They just don’t get quite the press coverage as dustups..
How Do You Make the Determination?
We can sit here and theorize but they are the ones with the players each day in practice. I bet if they felt it would help then they would keep them around but the problem is that when the feel it won’t, and they let them go, then we all sit from our couches and proclaim it a failure because they should have made it work.
I would rather error on the side of kicking them out the door then risk destroying the culture and teamwork that you have spent so long building and when they choose to throw them out I will sit on my couch and say good riddance.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
But not every "team-oriented" philosophy stresses the importance of...
actually implementing that action and standing by it. As I type Kfustud just posted my thoughts exactly as to the need to have the most talented players on the team.
Again...
On one hand, you say we can’t blame Cutler and Marshall for the offensive inefficiencies because they are young players, but on the other hand, McDaniels needs to cater to them, though he is the one that has all the Super Bowl rings, he is the one that helped Tom Brady become a MVP and he is the one that nurtured Cassel through a tough spot last year.
It can’t be both ways!
Cutler and Marshall are Me-First players that want the respect their W/L record doesn’t support.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Cutler is now on a run-first team with no WR to throw to....
and there’s no way he’s going to get the stats he was getting in Denver and he’s buying into the system just fine, and standing up for the receivers even though everybody knows it’s a major downgrade for him.
The Bears coaches aren’t catering to him, they just didn’t go behind his back and try to trade him for a less talented QB and then lie to his face about it. Pretty simple, really.
Also, McDaniels got two of his Super Bowl rings as a film scout assistant and one as a QB coach. When he was offensive coordinator in the Super Bowl, well, he couldn’t figure out how to stop the Giants pass rush now could he?
by War Admiral on Jun 17, 2009 10:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Save The Misinformed
version of the Cutler saga for the Denver Post.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
I'd love to hear the so-called 'informed' version
of the Cutler saga but none of it really matters at this point. McDaniels lost Cutler and now he’s lost Marshall. If you guys think that’s a good thing for Denver, good for you. Maybe Marshall sucks without Cutler, I don’t know. Maybe McDaniels is thrilled to death to have Kyle Orton instead of Cutler, maybe Orton is the second coming of Matt Cassel and maybe he isn’t. I’m betting he isn’t. We’ll soon find out.
by War Admiral on Jun 18, 2009 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions
The Informed version
Here’s a link to a well-researched discussion of the events of the winter and how they came down. I’m not trying to be inflammatory, but you really might find it helpful. Folks on this site have been researching and recording the events carefully – there is, of course, always going to be disagreement, but there are many areas that can be established that might change your mind on some things. However – as you say, we will soon find out as far as what players can contribute
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Cool. Thanks.
Will read when I get a chance.
Not exactly what I was expecting...
No offense to styg50, but those three examples don’t support his thesis.
William Joseph? There was no record breaking contract for him. Rookies hold out, there’s really nothing of substance there.
Steve McNair? I’m not sure what to make of that one. The Titans had to trade McNair, the cap hit was too big, in fact, if they couldn’t trade him they were going to cut him. They actually locked the man out of the training facility in the spring before any talks of trades ever occurred. Here’s the timeline:
* Dec. 18, 2005: The Titans play their final home game of the 2005 season. McNair tosses for 310 yards and two TDs in a loss vs. Seattle.
* Dec. 24, 2005: McNair leaves the Titans’ game at Miami with a strained pectoral muscle.
* Feb. 17, 2006: Titans GM Floyd Reese says publicly that he wants to re-work McNair’s contract since his cap number for the coming season is $23.46 million, but claims it will be a “long, drawn out process.”
* March 2, 2006: Titans exercise a $1 million option to keep McNair from becoming an unrestricted free agent. He still has a huge cap number for 2006. His agent clarifies that by paying the option, McNair will make 2006 his final season in Tennessee if the Titans don’t re-work his deal.
* March 31, 2006: McNair tells the Tennessean that he’s not ready to “tutor a quarterback.” Speculation is rampant that the Titans will draft a QB with their first-round pick in the 2006 NFL Draft.
* April 3, 2006: Titans ban McNair from working out at their headquarters. He arrived anticipating to work out in the team’s offseason conditioning program and was asked to leave.
* April 7, 2006: The NFL Players Association files a grievance against the Titans on McNair’s behalf, claiming that the quarterback should be allowed to practice there since he is under contract. The Titans defended themselves 10 days later, but wouldn’t state it publicly.
* April 29, 2006: Titans draft Texas QB Vince Young with the third overall pick in the 2006 NFL Draft.
* April 30, 2006: McNair’s agent speculates that his client will either be cut or traded to the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens aren’t permitted to publicly comment on McNair since he’s still under contract with another team.
* May 5, 2006 McNair agrees on a contract with Baltimore Ravens. He is scheduled to make $12m ($1m base + $11m signing bonus).
* May 16, 2006: McNair’s grievance is heard. The veteran wants to either be released by the Titans or have his contract honored. An arbitrator gives a June 1 date to announce his decision. In the interim, reports surface that the Ravens and Titans begin discussing a trade for McNair, which if completed would negate any ruling by an arbitrator.
* June 1, 2006: Arbitrator rules in favor of McNair stating that McNair’s contract was deemed violated when he was barred from working out with the team.
* June 7, 2006: Titans and Ravens work out a deal to send McNair to the Ravens for a 2007 4th round pick.
So. McNair didn’t sign any record-breaking contract. From the time the Titans drafted Vince Young to the time McNair agreed to terms with Baltimore was six days. Six days! Not exactly a long, drawn out process. McNair didn’t hit rock bottom in Baltimore, that year they went 13-3 and lost to Indy in the playoffs.
Brett Favre? That ‘saga’ actually didn’t take that long at all. It seemed like it took forever because the media was playing the story 24/7, but from the time Favre expressed a desire to play in 2008 (July 8) to the time he was traded to the Jets (Aug 6) was less than a month. From the time Favre and McCarthy had a 5 hour meeting to discuss Favre’s future to the time Favre was traded to the Jets was two days. Two days! And the Jets were going to the playoffs before Favre hurt his throwing arm.
Bus Cook didn’t orchestrate any of these things. Bus Cook didn’t tell the Titans to lock McNair out of their facility and draft Vince Young. Bus Cook didn’t tell Thompson and McCarthy to give Brett Favre the ultimatum of backing up Aaron Rodgers or staying retired. Bus Cook didn’t call Josh McDaniels and tell him to go after Matt Cassel or tell Jay Cutler that there’s no guarantee he won’t be traded in the future.
To try and blame all of this on Bus Cook, especially the Cutler trade, really seems like grasping at straws.
It’s very simple. If the company you work for was sold to another company, things would be very tense around work. People would be wondering how much was going to change, how the new management would treat them, how secure their jobs were. Some people would immediately put out feelers for other work in case they get let go. If the management told you your job was secure, but were then discussing bringing in someone to replace you, then told you the guy they were going to replace you with got hired somewhere else so you still have a job, but they can’t guarantee that you won’t be replaced in the future if it’s in the best interest of the company…. I don’t know about you, but I’d be sending my resume out all over town. I wouldn’t be thrilled with my new manager. If I could find another gig, I’d probably take it. As fast as possible. That’s me.
Looking back,
It seems to me that neither Jay nor BM did really buy into MS system either looking at the last three dropped games?
What about the hip?
Does anyone know what kind of careers other players with the same kind of hip injury Marshall has have had following surgery?
Rod Smith basically ended his career after a hip injury (don’t know if it was the same kind of thing with the hip though).
I think that should be the number 1 factor in how the Broncos treat Marshall. If his prognosis is good they should give him a contract with a behavior clause that gives him less money if he get’s suspended. If the outlook on his hip isn’t going to be clear until he’s playing again they should wait him out. Shouldn’t be tough to win a staring contest with someone with the brain of a seven year old. Actually, I take that back, I know a lot of good kids out there and comparing them to Marshall is an insult to 1st graders.
He is awesome on the field though… just so tired of prima donnas on the team. I hate hate hate to see him go but I’m starting to get the same feeling every time I see the stupid look on his face as I do when I think of my ex-wife.
Our offense was even worse when you consider
that it was 27th in the league in scoring from the fourth game on. For most of the season one of the most talented offenses in the league was also one of the worst. Brandon’s statement makes it sound like Bowlen’s already agreed to a trade. I wonder if that’s the case or just Brandon’s spin, and if it is the case if Bowlen has agreed to move him or just to try to trade him if they can get acceptable value in return?
All this off-season drama reminds me of a bratty kid whose parents have decided to stop putting up with his crap. The new approach might be better but results will be worse at the beginning because the kid has learned he can get away with tantrums and won’t give up that power easily. It’s hard to stay the course and get to the point where it starts to pay off. The football equivalent of the bratty kid is me-first play and a losing attitude — a tendency to throw in the towel when the going gets tough. It’s hard to change an engrained culture. Just ask Oakland or Detroit. It’s actually encouraging that McDaniels (and Bowlen!) seems willing to stay the course, to not cave in to those who’re resisting the new culture he’s trying to create. Changing the culture is much more difficult than installing new offensive and defensive systems, but I think McDaniels just might have the right stuff to get it done, and Bowlen is showing why he’s such a good owner by not undercutting him.
We’re feeling the pain now but I think it’ll pay off in the long run, and we might even see some results in the short run, i.e. this season. Things are going to be different, that’s clear, and they needed to be different. If McDaniels has to get rid of every player who can’t or won’t buy into his team-first approach, that’s okay. We’ll be better off in the long run if we build from the ground up with players who are on the same page. That brilliant offense we thought we had was fool’s gold. It wasn’t real. What McDaniels is building is, I truly believe, the real thing.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
I've been dreading the 2010 off-season simply because of the decision
on whether or not to re-sign Brandon Marshall. Well thankfully Brandon in his infinite immaturity provides us with the opportunity to resolve it a season early.
First of all, I don’t care whether you want Brandon here or not, this has NOTHING to do with Josh McDaniels and everything to do with $$$$$$$$$.
Secondly, I in no way, will support giving someone like Brandon Marshall Top-10 or even Top-5 WR money. Simply, because, he is none of these, despite his fans or the MSMs beliefs. Yes the 100+ catches and recieving yards are nice eye candy, but having a QB who singularly locks onto you as a target will do that for you. For instance, as Bill Williamson pointed out, Marshall was thrown to 174 times last year. 174! He caught only 104 of those passes or roughly 54%. Compare that to Andre Johnson, a true Top-5 WR who was thrown to 160 times, second most, and caught 115 of them for a 72% rate, or Larry Fitzgerald another true Top-5, who caught 96 of the 152 thrown at him for a 64% rate.
Add this to his mediocre TD production :5’9" Royal had 5 compared to 6’5" Marshalls 6:, drops, fumbles, superior production versus weak competition, weak production versus superior competition, off-field issues and yearly injuries and you do not have a Top-5 WR in the NFL. You have a player who’s very comparable to say, Eddie Mac or Plaxico Burress, with much less reliable hands. Yes a tough possesion WR who your team needs, but not a Randy Moss or Larry Fitzgerald-game breaker, therefore, NOT deserving of Randy Moss-type money.
I think Marshall is a great piece on a football team, as a #2 possesion WR. But he is not a game-breaking, All-Pro, All-Everything WR that he seems to think he is with his contract demands. So do you pay a quality WR who was the favorite, and practically only, target of a now gone QB ridiculous money that only goes to WRs with more reliable hands or do you move on and hope to find a replacement later?
Either way it gets resolved it becomes a tough decision because Marshall has put up the right numbers to get him fan and MSM recognition, therefore, moving him is going to be considered bad regardless of the return. However, I just don’t think investing large amounts of money in a largely unreliable WR both on and off the field is worth it.
I for one think $4-5 million a year sounds reasonable for a possession WR in the NFL and if Marshall doesn’t accept, then he plays out this season, we slap the franchise tag on him next off-season :if the new CBA is signed: and trade him then. If no CBA is signed we put the maximum restricted free agent value on him :a first and a third: and see if anyone matches.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 17, 2009 12:55 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Don’t place on the blame for our 16th ranked scoring offense on the offense.
This article fails to consider THE primary reason why Denver didn’t score points at the same clip they racked up yards.
Shi**y special teams and a defense that created virtually no turnovers.
If Cutler and crew didn’t need to drive 80+ F*ing yards every time we got that ball, Denver would have been able to put more points on the board.
If the F*ing defense ever created a turnover (esp. on when the opponent was over 50 yards from our goal line), Denver would have been able to put more points on the board.
Cutler and the offense got ZERO help for the special teams and defense. Denver has been getting killed in the field position battle for the past few years and they’ve done an even worse job creating turnovers.
If the atrocity that was our 2008 special teams / defense carries over into 2009, The Coach will be lucky to win 2 games.
don't you have to
at least place some blame on the lack of scoring on the offense? I agree the defense and special teams play was lacking, but they didn’t lead to red zone turnovers or stalled drives. The offense’s job is to score points, right?
Any team’s red zone execution is going to be negatively impacted by having to travel 60+ yards just to get inside the 20 (just about every time).
I would actually expect the opposite
After an offense travels 60+ yards, I would expect the offense to have an easier time scoring due to defensive fatigue…
Horton is win.
You can't be serious
If this were the case, losing the field position battle would be a preferable coaching strategy. Is it? Of course not.
If you look at TD % (over a season, game, decade, etc), you will ALWAYS see that drives starting 20ish yards from the goal line lead to more TDs than drives starting 50ish yards from the goal line and drives starting 50ish yards from the goal line result in more TDs than drives starting 80ish yards from the goal line.
It’s much easier to score TDs when you are working with a short field.
Very much agreed
But that stat is looking at the beginning of each drive. Of course, the longer you have to travel, the less likely you are to get a TD.
That’s not what we’re talking about here, however. We’re looking at the large number of times where the offense has moved into the red zone, making that previous probability of scoring a TD moot. The team now HAS that shortened field you’re talking about, and a good offense will finish the job. Denver struggled to get the TD, and had an ugly tendency to turn the ball over. Even with the “pressure” of a bad defense, a great offense shouldn’t be misfiring that much.
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
I agree with 5280's question...
Failure in the red zone has NOTHING to do with short or long field, fatigue or anything else.
It has do with lack of scheme, lack of game planning, lack of execution and poor decision making……whether you have travelled 90 yards or 9 yards!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
how is travelling 60+ yards going to negatively impact red zone success?
Are they getting tired? Running out of plays?
If anything, it might affect the number of opportunities to be effective in the red zone, but any individual trip into the red zone is an entity in and of itself, regardless of how many times you get there, or how long it took you.
Sorry, but the offense is on its own in the redzone.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I've got those stats too....
7 Red Zone turnovers, 8 if you count the Hochuli screw up. That’s on the offense.
Not to mention, you prove my popint in a way. Shanahan catered to players like Marshall and Cutler, while ignoring the special teams and defense. McDaniels won’t do that, and he will hold EVERYONE accountable for failure. Obviously a couple players don’t like that too much.
It is funny to me that everything good that happened in ’08 was because of Cutler and Marshall, everything bad happened in spite of them….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
You nailed it!
It is funny to me that everything good that happened in ’08 was because of Cutler and Marshall, everything bad happened in spite of them….
I keep hearing how GREAT Cutler and Marshall are/were and how we should never have gotten rid of Cutler and NO WAY we don’t pony up for Marshall because they were the reason for our “#2 ranked offense” (I put that in quotes on purpose) and how awesome our offense was as a result of Cutler/Marshall.
Then… when someone brings up the offense’s inadequacies from last year, namely a lack of red zone production, you hear “It was the defense’s fault!” – “It was the defense’s fault!” – “It was the defense’s fault!”
Well, excuse me… but if Cutler and Marshall are such incredible earth-shattering talents, why couldn’t they use their “Pro Bowl” talent to outplay the defense?
How is it the fault of the Broncos D when two “Pro Bowl” talents consistently came up short last year, despite one of the best O-Lines in the game?
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
If the defense ever created a turnover, Denver would have been able to put more points on the board.
not necessarily. They still had problems in the Red Zone, and THAT was NOT the Defenses fault.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
If Denver wants to improve their W/L %, they didn’t need to change out Cutler and Marshall for new players.
What they do need to do is vastly improve their pass rush (which will lead to more picks), vastly improve their run stuffing ability and vastly improve their special teams.
Brandon Marshall and Cutler are two of the primary reasons why we won 8 games in 2008.
The sh** defense and special teams are (by far) the primary reason we lost 8 games in 2008.
While I do agree that D and ST hurt the offense...
I also feel that the lack of offensive production (at times) and turnovers also contributed to poor special teams and defensive play. It is a two way street.
How many times did Culter throw picks on our side of the field, forcing the D to defend a short field? Or Cutler force balls into coverage for an incompletion in 2nd/3rd and mid to short situations instead of hitting DG or a RB in the flat for the first down? Again the ST was punting from deep in our territory and defense was forced on to the field with very little rest and another opportunity to be exposed by the opponent.
While I agree our D and special teams were absolutely horrible, the offense (scheme, play calling, Cutler) did not help in limiting those liabilities.
This is a team game and when ALL phases of the game play well they complement each other, thus improving their individual performance. I think McD is fully aware of these previous deficiencies and is working to get the players to improve each area.
My attempt at thinking like McGeorge:
Those picks weren’t Cutler’s fault. He was forced to take gambles because of the inept defense. Every time he was forcing the ball it was due to his feelings that he had to score every time he touched the ball because the defense was scored on 100% of the time.
a more level headed approach from the head coach and offensive coordinator
would have nipped an attitude like that off before it could becoame a negative game changer. The line “play within yourself” applies here.
But of course, the headcoach and offensive coordinator (one of which is a future hall of famer) concluded that the best way to handle Cutler was to elevate his role to a level not befitting of his current talent, maturity or “field-intelligence” levels. Why would Shanahan make a decision like that? Was he trying to create an Elway-like clutch performance diamond by subjecting coal to intense, consistent pressure? Was it something simpler and more benign, such as finding that to be the easiest way to communicate and work with Cutler, i.e. to treat him like a proven superstar in an effort to get him to act like a proven superstar? Could it also be that he simply wasn’t very responsive to anyone who tried to teach him if they didn’t start from the premise of a self-image he held of his own unrealized greatness?
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, maybe my sarcasm wasn't evident
I like your thought process about why he may have been prone to throwing those interceptions.
All I was trying to do was play devils advocate (not like we have enough of those around here).
I got where you were coming from
I was just playing along. You made a good point in your satan worship. (pardon the terminology, but I am testing out some synonyms…)
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions
I believe our D was scored on 100% of the time in the San Diego game in week 17. It was disgusting.
My biggest beef with Cutler is that he didn’t improve as 2008 progressed. If anything, he got worse (and I’m talking individually). That is a pretty massive strike/criticism against I guy I really like as a player.
But Jay was still 100 times better than his defensive counterparts in damn near every game. Pre McDaniels, our D had a hell of a lot further to go to simply be a competent unit vs the improvements our O needed to become great.
I believe our O was little more than a RB, an average year of player health, and added experience from being the best offense in the NFL.
Our D was F*ing terrible, historically, at all three levels in 2008. While it looks like Mc has vastly improved the secondary, I still bet we’ll see terrible D-line play and subpar LB play in 2009 as our talent is just not adequate. Wake me up when DJ Williams shows any improvement over his rookie season (fire away with the excuses – I’m ready for them). Champ Bailey is not getting any better/younger either. Unless someone like Woodyard, Elvis, Ayres and/or Thomas blossoms into a Pro Bowl type player, are we really going to get much better in 2009? I HATED Slowik, but I don’t see how this unit cracks the top 20 in 2009. To make matters worse, the gains (which I believe will be minimal) that we make on defense, may be washed out sans Cutler (and maybe, although unlikely, Marshall). I hope I’m wrong.
So yes, I blame our defense (and special teams) for the eight losses in 2008 far more than Cutler and the offense. The defense gave the offense nothing as far as momentum, big players, effort, turnovers, sacks, production. Nothing. The lack of help provided from their defense and special teams had an impact on everything the offense did (red zone efficiency, turnovers, effort, etc). IMO, our offense was simply too young and rudderless to compensate for a historically disgusting defense/special teams.
no doubt
when assigning portions of blame, the D ate more than its fair share, followed closely by Special teams with offense a distant third. Total agreement on that point.
Of course, a lot of this offseason revolves around the whole contingent lagging behind the elite teams of the league.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 6:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Wait one daggone minute
on DJ. Forget the excuses – absolutely no need for them. Check out the number of tackles he made each year since his rookie year. He has taken on a different position in every single year (but one) AND still has managed to rack up elite stats. The defense was bad, but don’t throw out this baby with the bath water!!
Go DJ, and go Broncos!
Number of tackles???
I’m not saying DJ is garbage by any means, but the number of tackles is frequently indicative of the number of snaps the opposing offense took, rather than the skill of the individual player… I saw a stat somewhere that the Broncos were #2 or #3 in team tackles last year, and they would have been #1 but for the long plays they gave up.
by Velveeta on Jun 17, 2009 9:56 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are overlooking the major fact that...
THEY DON’T/DIDN’T want to be a part of THIS team. They allowed their egos to get in the way of the team-first mentality that McDaniels brought with him. If you like star-studded, me-first teams, go root for the Yankees.
I agree there...
The players wanted out because the Country Club life was over….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Interesting Post
A good read, but I don’t agree with all your conclusions. You start by stating “If you ask me there is no way Marshall puts up the numbers he did in 2007 and 2008” because the offense is going to be “much more balanced”. However, the new HC is bringing in an offense where Randy Moss had very similar stats (~170 rec, ~2500 yds, 34 TD) as Marshall (206 rec, ~2600 yds, 13 TD) over the last 2 years. Brandon Marshall and Randy Moss aren’t the same guy, but you have to think they’ll be used similarly (which also bodes well for Eddie, as Welker had 223 rec, ~2300 yds and 11 TD over that span). I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to think Brandon could maintain a similar pace (maybe even a bump in TD? – “Marshall could have a bigger impact in this offense, especially in the Red Zone, because his combination of size and speed is an asset in the McDaniels offense”)
Next you throw out some stats showing how underachieveing our offense was, scoring-wise. First off, I think that is mainly the fault of the coaching staff (poor play selection) and the quarterback (poor decision making). I’m sure the other players, including Marshall, also had plays where their execution was poor (bad routes, dropped passes, etc), but since this a Brandon Marshall post, this section seems to be laying a lot of blame on him for the poor red zone production. Secondly, I feel the numbers you cited point more towards “Hey guys, we’ll have a better scheme and should actually be able to realize the potential of our talented offense” than “Hey guys, if we lose BMarsh who cares, the Pats were good”.
I know all those numbers are real, I’m just not sure how relevant they are.
I agree with the end of your post though – I want Brandon to remain a Bronco because I’m excited for his potential. If he isn’t here, we need to get value (something I think we’ve shown we’re capable of doing in trade).
Good point about production
However, there is a difference in how many times each player was thrown at. Last year Marshall was targeted 181 and Moss was targeted 125 times.
True
And over the 2 year period it’s probably even more pronounced. However, that may point more to Randy Moss playing in a better offensive scheme that gives him a better chance to catch a ball when he’s targeted, or having more targeted ball be catchable (well, plus Moss has better hands and at least with Brady had a more consistently accurate ball to catch).
You are right...
I say in my article that I think Marshall will excel, especially in the Red Zone, in this offense. That said, Marshall is nowhere NEAR the deep threat Moss is. Few receivers are.
Based on YPC and TD conversion %, Marshall would almost have to be considered more of a possession receiver.
Now, you jumped to a conclusion with this – “Hey guys, if we lose BMarsh who cares, the Pats were good” I never said it and apologize if you went to the conclusion.
Many people are lumping the Shanahan/Cutler/Marshall situations together. They are different. If, going by your argument above, the blame for the offensive inefficiencies are the fault of “the coaching staff (poor play selection) and the quarterback (poor decision making)”, then the first two decisions this offseason were the correct ones.
Lastly, Brandon’s case is completely different. The guy wants a new deal. The Broncos likely want to see what is going to happen with his court case and his rehab before committing. Oh, and of course he has yet to have 1 calendar year where he is not getting arrested. The Broncos should ask for the moon in a trade and if they don’t get it, hold on to Marshall, make him play, and work out the details later.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Different Situations
I agree, I think you’re absolutely right about the Shanny, Cutler, and Marshall situations being very different. As much as it pained me, I was saying to my friends that I thought it might be time for Shanny to go literally one day before he was canned. And while I really wanted to watch Cutler (hopefully) grow into the great QB I think he’s capable of, he (and Bus) were so immature and me-first during that fiasco that I think management had to move him (and they did a helluva job, IMO).
I can’t agree with your last paragraph more, or state it any better.
And no need to apologize to me for me misinterpreting your tone. If anything, I probably overstated what I thought your point was for effect…
Are you honestly trying to say
that Josh McDaniels has nothing to do with personnel and contract decisions? From everything that has happened in the past few months it is pretty clear that McDaniels has a quite significant (if not primary) influence in those decisions. If McDaniels thought Marshall warranted a new contract, negotiations would be taking place now. Even if you are in complete agreement with the way the Broncos are handling the situation, it is disingenuous to pretend that McDaniels is not one of the key players involved.
That's a good point
Which leads me to believe that Mcd doesn’t think BM warrants a new contract until he shows up and proves something. This is consistent with everything I’ve heard Josh say regarding BM. He wants him there but he’s not going to put a player above the team. If BM had shown up and been a team player (see Casey Weigman) he would have had a much better chance at a new contract.
"as in football so in life"
Did I say that??
I know McDaniels is a key player, but this situation would have happened regardless of who the Coach/GM is. I can’t say Mike Shanahan, coming off the Travis Henry situation, along with the injuries, would give Marshall big money right now…..
So that is my question. If it was your $20-$30 mill, would you do it?
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
yeah. you did say that
First, for all of you blaming Josh McDaniels for this, please explain. This is a contract situation. This has nothing to do with McDaniels. I know it is easy, and convenient to lump all these situations together, but the Head Coach has nothing to do with why Brandon Marshall is not in camp.
It is unfair to say that people cannot blame Josh McDaniels because the Head Coach has nothing to do with why Marshall is not in camp and completely ignore the fact that McDaniels is more than just the head coach. Whether you personally think he deserves the blame or not, McDaniels is an appropriate target for those who do not like the way the Broncos are handling the situation. Who knows what Shanahan would do if he were still running the show, but if he made the same decisions as McDaniels it would be equally appropriate for upset fans to target Shanahan for blame (though admittedly fewer would do it).
As to what I would do, it is hard to say? I have no idea what Marshall asked for or what the Broncos were willing to do? At the minimum I would have given him a raise (ala McNabb) and added a bunch of incentives to give him a chance to make something closer to fair market value. Did the Broncos offer that? Would Marshall have rejected it? I have no idea.
Perhaps a better way to put it
If you were going to blame the Broncos, who would you blame? To me the answer is the training staff, Bowlen and McDaniels. They are the only ones currently employed by the Broncos who could have/still can do something to change the situation (maybe add Joe Ellis to this list). I don’t think you can blame Mike McCoy or any of the assistants nor do I think you can blame Brian Xanders (he may have input, but he does not win when he and McDaniels have differing opinions)
Two different things...
The point is, this situation would happen REGARDLESS of the Head Coach. That is why to lay blame at the feet of McDaniels is wrong.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
OK. Well I disagree with that premise
It most likely would have happened regardless of who was in charge of the Broncos decisions (I dont know why you keep emphasizing head coach, but it seems to imply that McDaniels is ONLY the HC and has no other power). But without knowing more details of what happened and what Marshall wants, I can’t say for sure that this could not have been avoided had the Broncos acted differently in the past few months nor can I say for sure that it could not have been resolved once it did pop up.
OK...I'll be more clear...
If Mike Shanahan were in charge, this would be happening
With Josh McDaniels in charge, this is happening
If I were running the Broncos, this would be happening.
The Brandon Marshall situation, whatever it is, was set in motion a long time ago….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
How can you be so sure
when you don’t even know what Marshall’s specific demands are? If all Marshall asked for was a rasie this year and the promise of a long term contract after the season if he was healthy, productive and out of trouble and for his own doctors to see the results of any medical tests, then I am pretty sure Mike Shanahan would have resolved the issue. I doubt Marshall’s demands were that minimal, but I don’t know what he actually asked for. And I dont know if McDaniels flat out rejected Marshall’s offer/request or if he made a counteroffer which Marshall found completely unacceptable. If you can give me those details (preferaby not from some anonymous source) then I may join in your certitude. But for now I wil take the Spock approach – To reach a conclusion with such a limited amount of data would be illogical.
At the same time
To lay any blame on anyone with so little information is illogical as well. Ergo the coach becomes a moot figure because he can neither be blamed rationally or be excused of blame rationally regardless of who he is.
I think this is Guru’s point.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Of course McD is INVOLVED
But the question was whether or not he was a cause or contributing factor in this problem. And since giving BM a huge contract right now in utterly nonsensical for the various reasons that have already been pointed out ad nauseum, McD can’t really be said to be connected to the BM matter in a causal way.
BM perhaps has to play his hand this way if he is worried about his injury and 09 production, and also due to the timing of the CB issue and the timing of the expiration of his contract. It’s business. I don’t blame him – he’s just in a tight spot. (Although I would have done it differently, less combatatively.) But, again, this is not a McD problem other than in the sense that it has become a problem he has to try to clean up.
I think things are going very well.
Two guys wanted to leave, and one is gone (and one seems on the way out). I don’t want guys on the team that don’t want to be there. I don’t want guys with maturity issues, and I don’t want guys that seem to have injury and / or suspension issues looming over them.
We can make excuses for Cutler, but the bottom line is that Orton did much more than Cutler (with much less WR and OL support). We got Orton AND some nice draft picks. Cutler was never efficient, and his biggest selling point was potential (which doesn’t win ball games).
Marshall was a good enough player, but he doesn’t want to be an adult. You would think that Cutler and Marshall were the identity of the Broncos. I think that the last two years, the only identity we had was trying to break even with our season record. I’m sick of that. I’m ready for something new. Folks that want the same 8 wins or less records with a Cutler and a Marshall are welcome to the memories of losing seasons. I would like to get back to being a team that makes it to playoffs. That didn’t happen with Cutler & Marshall.
There’s still time for Marshall to grow up and play for us. But the door is closing pretty fast. He’s with us or against us, and the choice is his alone.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
HT, you have a knack for stating things clearly!
You always make so much sense! When others are trying to deal with the details, you see the bigger picture. Thanks!
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
I consider this to be a two bear statement
I believe that locker room problem children are worth their weight in dung. I admire Marshall’s talent and have rooted for him to clean up his situation and work things out for a long time. I’ve written about him (here) and have truly believed that, like Jay Cutler, he needed to listen to coaching and mentors (Rod Smith tried with him, and that fact says a lot about Marshall’s inability to listen and learn) and could be one of the best if he did.
But like HT, I’m a fervent believer that in a locker room, one player who can’t buy in, believe in his team and play for his teammates, (especially if that player has been frequently injured and suspended for conduct problems and has a court date still pending) needs to be invited onward if the trade can be made to benefit the Broncos. I’m not that hopeful that it can be right now. I do believe that if he gets in the locker room with the likes of Dawkins and Andra Davis that his negativity can be minimized or canceled out, but I’ve seen too many situations in life tainted by the inappropriate actions and attitudes of a single person.
“Marshall was a good enough player, but he doesn’t want to be an adult.”
Says it all, HT, and thanks for the persective
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I'll honestly admit, I said no.
Not because I so DESPERATELY want BMarsh around either. I’d be fine if he gets traded or cut. However, when I said no, I will also say IT DEPENDS for me personally. It depends on who that “serviceable receiver” is…it depends on what they decide to do with that number one pick (do they go offense…AGAIN? or do they dump it to another team for something else). One trade in this time span is enough…TWO TRADES? Pandemonium for me…almost laughing stock for a few months.
Now listen, I just want to say that I am with the majority of you. However, at this point in time I have to be honest and say that if the team dumped Marshall TODAY for exactly that (listed above), and the “servicable” wide receiver didn’t meet my personal approval or expectations, I wouldn’t be for it. Maybe if you give the thing some time … if you can afford that luxury of course. I think I can speak for a few of us here by saying that .
I know many of you are ready to move on and good to go and say let’s cut him now. Some of us just need a little time. The truth is, we don’t KNOW how this season is going to turn out…for all we know you could be saying this now and then react during a terrible season. We don’t know. Heck, it could be the opposite and the Broncos could really gel and have an amazing season. I’m not a fan of having too many unknowns. Check that, in the offseason when there’s still a TON of time to start thinking ahead to the season, I’m not a fan of too many unknowns. Granted, when the preseason rolls around I’ll be on board with whatever the team’s got.
I’ll just say now, I’d like to give the guy the option to stick around first and be a team player, because I really do think he could be useful (no matter how many times you want to use the ‘do we even NEED a number one receiver in this system?’ line). I really do. Of course, if he’s not “with the team” let him go…but let the thing play out a bit first. It’s the offseason. It’s not like you HAVE to deal him tomorrow because it’ll ruin the team’s preparation for the preseason game in a short timeframe.
So just wanted to chime in as a small segment of the ‘no’ crowd and I guess all my verbiage there makes me part of the ‘yes’ crowd in a way (at least if we give it a little time), but hopefully I don’t get burned for wanting to give the guy a chance and thinking the guy ACTUALLY could help. I’ll be one of the first to jump in and defend character in a player over talent most of the time, but contrary to what a lot of people think, I really do believe BMarsh can help out a McD system Broncos’ team. I just don’t want to “jump the gun” just yet. I want to give things a chance for one. Two, I want to have some time between “shake-ups” if you will. Three, I want to make darn sure that this “serviceable receiver” truly is serviceable (I’d rather get a serviceable defender in all honesty). Again, I’m not in any way standing up for the way Marshall’s acting, but there’s still a window to see if the two sides can come to terms.
Great post as always TSG.
Did anyone hear Jim Rome rip
Brandon Marshall this morning? He basically said, this is all on you. Brandon. (After saying he felt like Cutlergate was more on McDaniels, but this is all Marshall.) And he said the Broncos have to hold firm, they can’t cave in and trade him or they’ll look bad, and won’t get anywhere near close to him in talent back. Nothing much new there.
But was kinda good to hear.
Jim Rome is the only national, obnoxious radio host who I kind of like because he’s actually pretty bright and generally knows what he’s talking about, even if he can be a bit harsh.
At this point
this close to taining camp, with an offense that relies very much on the WRs doing work on the outside, I think it is improtant to get a quick resolution that gives the team a firm foothold, roster, depth and cap wise.
it amkes sense to me to accomodate the Marshall request, even at the expense of perceived talent. i would be willing to move him for a draft pick alone, nothing lower than a second rounder. I would be less likely to accept a low pick and journeyman player, but it really depends ont he pick and player offered.
A first and a serviceable palyer? I’m game, but it doesn’t seem likely at first blush, given everything we ahve talked about regarding marshall.
I think the most important thing, however, is regardless of outcome, it needs to be 100% resolved before the team starts cutting down to 53, and hopefully it is resolved before the team gets to training camp. It may be a business, but they have to play the game, eventually. And games are meant to be fun and rewarding. At this point with what has been said and done, I don’t think Marshall has any “takebacks”: this team doesn’t have the right composition to absorb him anymore, and our roster doesn’t afford us the luxury of tough-love (sitting him).
I am going to appeal to a concept of justice that demands first and foremost that we preserve the “good.” the good is a roster of hard workers who all want to be here. Do I think Brandon needs to learn a lesson about what it takes to be a successful member of a successful team? I sure do, but we are out of time, and I am no longer interested in him learning that lesson at the expense of the Broncos. Time to preserve the “good” and finish off this roster with one more player who really wants to be here. This is no time for an eye for an eye.
Whatever Marshall has coming to him, he will get it. Just not here.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 17, 2009 3:23 PM MDT reply actions
I agree with Jim Rome.
The Cutler fiasco was due in large part to several mistakes made by McDaniels. Peter King, John Clayton, Don Banks, Dave Krieger, the writers at NFL.com, CBS Sportline, etc would agree with Jim Rome.
Even though I don’t like McDaniels, I don’t see how the Brandon Marshall situation has anything to do with The Coach. If anything, McDaniels can come out of this looking brilliant and strong by forcing Marshall to hold out. If/when Marshall shows up, it would only enhance McDaniels cred in the locker room.
Giving Marshall a fat new deal (before the season) or trading him (for pennies on the dollar) would be another example of his inexperience leading to foolish mistakes.
Then we would agree to disagree...
Not because I think that McDaniels handled the Cutler situation perfectly, but because I don’t think he did anything that awful.
Remember, it was Peter King, one of your cited examples, that reported that Cutler asked for a trade when Shanahan was fired, BEFORE McDaniels was hired.
Cutler knee-jerks to everything. That is NOT the kind of player I want leading the team. Just my opinion and it has been my opinion for a LONG TIME.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
by John Bena on Jun 17, 2009 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry
I am trying to get on board but I just can’t rationalize giving away your two Pro Bowlers and best players from the year before. How does that make us better?
Anytime you mention the words Kyle Orton and starting QB in the same sentence, forgive me, but I just don’t get too excited. Now Marshall? I understand many people think the guy is scum and have good reason to, but I want him on the field damn it.
Call me crazy but I am just not that into giving away your best players. Weird, I know.
Me Neither...
That’s why my preference would be, if the Broncos can’t swing a huge trade, for Marshall to suit up come Training Camp. He will, and he’ll play well, because it is in his best interest to do so…
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Agree
If we can’t pull in a significant haul for Marshall I would wait him out if I were the Broncos. Why not be the first to call a players bluff on an unearned contract settlement? I would love it. Put the ball in Marshall’s court.
by Business Socks on Jun 18, 2009 12:58 AM MDT up reply actions
The danger is getting a situation like Ochocinco in Cinci last year
Where the off the field frustration carried over not only to his play on the field but to his teammates as well.
this is my worry
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 18, 2009 1:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Brandon and Cutler and Shanahan
The problem was Cutler would lock into Marshall so much that when they got in the red zone he couldn’ t read what the defense’s were giving him when they would key on Marshall. McDaniels is changing the culture around here, which should have happened awhile ago. Shanahan treated these stars like primadonnas and the Broncos have been soft for years. I was a Shanahan fan but he wore out his welcome. He brought us 2 Super Bowls but cost us a third when he was coaching like a deer-in -headlights against Jacksonville the year prior. Also if Shanahn was such an offensive genius why couldn’t he figure out what the opponents offenses were doing. Give McDaniels a chance he will make the Broncos winners again
I disagree with this comparison assessment.
Who would you rather have?
* Jay Cutler or Matt Cassel
* Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley or Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Jabar Gaffney
* Peyton Hillis and the Broncos’ run game or Sammy Morris and New England’s?
* Daniel Graham/Tony Scheffler or Ben Watson?
* Broncos O-Line or Pats O-Line?
With the exception of Randy Moss, you might take the Broncos in every category above. Yet, despite having more talent, the Broncos scored fewer points. Execution beats talent. The Patriots offense executed better than the Broncos, especially in the Red Zone.
I’d take Cutler and the TEs, but yes, Moss, Welker, and Gaffney beat Marshall, Royal, and Stokely. Peyton Hillis is a fullback who played well for 4 games before injuring himself for the season. Sure, he averaged over 7 yds /carry against Kansas City at home (ranked 30th against the run) but Morris averaged over 8 yds/carry against Denver in Denver (27th against the run). I’d take either offensive line, both teams seem to have had a lot of success offensively and it all starts in the trenches, doesn’t it? But as far as TDs go, the Pats ran the ball in 21 times, Denver 15, while through the air the Pats scored 21 times and Denver 25.
Total TDs: Pats 42, Broncs 40.
2 TDs is not a huge difference. If it is, then Shanahan’s passing offense was head and shoulders above McDaniels’, outscoring him by 4 TDs on the season. The big difference between the Pats and the Broncs is defense. Hell, all you have to do is look at week 7 last year, New England comes to Denver, their defense allows 1 TD and Denver’s D gets smoked for 5 TDs and 2 field goals. If Denver’s defense shows up at least a little bit, the Broncos probably outscore the Pats on the season, at least in TDs.
The reason New England outscored Denver so badly last year was field goals… 36 to 25. And one key to getting into field goal range is starting field position of the offense which has nothing to do with the offense but the defense and special teams. Another possible reason for this difference is that Denver was often playing from behind, needing a TD score and going for 4th down conversions while NE was padding a lead with field goals, attempting 40 FG to Denver’s 34, and making a better percentage of those attempts. None of this, of course, can be blamed on Cutler or Marshall.
Cutler and Marshall were the two most talented players on a good offense that did its best to compensate for poor defensive and special teams play. That’s the glaring difference between Denver’s 8-8 and New England’s 11-5.
The Pats still did all of it...
With Matt Cassel while we had Cutler.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Matt Cassel, Randy Moss, a good defense,
and a supporting cast of a team that is hands-down the consensus dynasty of this decade with 3 Super Bowl wins on their resume and coming off a 16-0 season, one magical David Tyree catch against the helmet away from perfection. Drop Cutler into New England to replace Tom Brady last season and you think he does worse than Cassel? Is that a joke?
A Patriots perspective
First – and I really can’t stress this enough – the Patriots defense did not win games last year, at least not after week 8. They were horrible on third down and in the red zone – maybe not Broncos horrible but, the offense was definitely not just along for the ride.
Now, Cassel vs Cutler – who would do better in New England 2008? For the first half I would definitly take Cutler, because Cassel lacked experience and it showed early, and I have always, at least until I looked up the stats below, believed Cutler to be the most talented overall. But check out the stats for the second half of the season. Cassel was very good in the NE system producing yards, TD’s and – really important here – keeping interception totals low.
Cutler nov-dec (9 games): 12 TD – 11 INT
Cassel nov-dec (9 games): 14 TD – 5 INT
Based on that, yes it would be a joke picking one qb ahead of the other – but it is Cutler who comes up short.
No, it was actually both who came up short....
Cassel threw a pick late in the 4th quarter against the Colts in November and they lost the game by a field goal. In another game tied 10-10 at halftime against Pittsburgh, Cassel threw 2 picks and lost two fumbles in the second half and the Pats lost 33-10. The Pats also were one game short of making the playoffs, remember.
Blame Jay, blame Matt. Neither one could win one more game to make the postseason.
To be quite honest
I blame the defense!
I just don’t think it is all that obvious Jay Cutler could have done any better, had he been the qb of the Patriots last year.
I agree with you
probably on both points. I’m watching with interest to see how all three, Cassel, Cutler, and Orton do on their new respective teams.
Can't say....
There is some reason Jay Cutler couldn’t find it within him to work with McDaniels….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Offensive Lines
I agree with you on a lot of those points, WA, but on the two offensive lines, it’s not even close. We did a pretty extensive breakdown on it this winter and I wondered if you might find it interesting? Find them here and here if you do.
You make a lot of good points, but the number of sacks and the performance of the NE line regarding running on 3rd and short, for example, was below the statistical average in the NFL and far below the Broncos. I recognize that they dealt with some injuries, but from a performance viewpoint, it was Denver hands down. Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris together are one of, if not the, top pairs of tackles in the league. Our O line is perhaps the strongest single aspect of the team.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Time Out!
I am old and I am tired of the TOs and BMs who think a contract is signing their name is what they can dance too in the end zone. Bowlen, don’t trade this SOB, but put his butt on the bench! Better yet, make him play another season, if he is good then pay him knowing full well, he will be back for more.
Coach, I am Hurt, Not Dead - Remember the Titans
I think it is important to differentiate rookie contracts from free agent contracts and renegotations
With the rookie salary pool and slotting system, there is not a lot of flexibility or leverage for drafted players outside of the top few. Granted they have chosen to become NFL players, but they are entering a league where most of the negotating in the rookie contracts has been taken away by the CBA, something the incoming players did not sign or have a say in. I have a lot more sympathy for players in Brandon’s situation who basically had to sign the contract they were offered than I do for players who were able to negotiate the terms of the their contract and later have second thoughts.
the rookie player pool money is ridiculous
have you heard or read anything about some solution for that when they talk about a rookie cap? I don’t think capping necesarily solves the problems of rookie contract leverage…
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 18, 2009 1:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, I have not heard anything useful
IMO the problem with rookie contracts are two-fold, but only one of the two is getting any attention – which is obviously the ridiculous guaranteed contracts given to the top picks. But for the vast majority of rookies the problem is that they have minimal leverage to even negotiate incentives into their contracts. A third or fourth round pick who holds out is a player who has slim odds of making the roster. They do have that pool of money that goes to rookies who play more than expected, but that really just turns the egregious cases into merely horrendous.
I don’t know what to the solution is. Maybe changing the salary cap implications of incentives or escalators in rookie contracts to give the teams more incentive to include them in the contract? Or maybe a league wide set of incentives and escators that apply to all rookie contracts? But there is something wrong with a system where there is a good chance that Brandon Marshall will make less over the entirety of his first five years in the league Larry Fitzgerald has averaged over each of his first five years and less than Charles Rogers got as a signing bonus in 2003
Just to be clear everyone....
My hope and with is for #15 to be wearing Orange and Blue this season. Only if the Broncos get solid value for a guy who has made over 200 catches the past two seasons should they think about making a deal. Since that is unlikely, and since Marshall’s value is greatest to the Broncos, I feel he will be a Bronco come September 13…
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
with=wish
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
What about BM's blocking ability?
So far, nobody’s mentioned Brandon’s ability to throw blocks downfield. His ability to crush people when he doesn’t have the ball is a great asset that we shouldn’t forget about when we consider his value.
McDaniels is to blame
First, for all of you blaming Josh McDaniels for this, please explain. This is a contract situation. This has nothing to do with McDaniels. I know it is easy, and convenient to lump all these situations together, but the Head Coach has nothing to do with why Brandon Marshall is not in camp.
Brandon Marshall wasn’t in non-mandatory camp because he was rehabbing from hip surgery with medical trainers that he trusts instead of the Broncos staff who lied to him about the severity of his injury last season. FYI, people don’t like being lied to, I don’t care if they’re under contract or not… if you don’t believe me, see Jay Cutler.
From Sports Illustrated: ‘In his most recent posting on his Web site, Marshall wrote: "It’s kind of funny now but some of my coaches thought I was getting ‘big-headed’ and just didn’t want to practice but I needed some fine tuning." ’
So McDaniels and/or his coaching staff, after trading away the (pro-bowl) QB that BM has a great relationship with and replacing him with Kyle Orton (the poor man’s Matt Cassel), tell their #1 receiver that his ego is a problem, he’s lazy, and he’s not as good as he thinks he is.
Now get your ass to camp and start practicing catching underthrown balls.
If I was McDaniels, I might have handled it differently. But then again, I like having talented football players on my team and I have a healthy affection for fielding a respectable defense. That’s me.
I believe he was referencing the coaching staff of last year. Re: Shanahan.
by Matt In Canada on Jun 18, 2009 7:50 AM MDT up reply actions
No, that was about a week ago
re: his not being at OTAs
I Wouldn't Call
BM and JC as having a great relationship.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
What would you call
206 hookups for 2,590 yards and 13 TDs in 31 games… Bad?
WHAT???
His issues are with the Trainers, which are the same from last year to this year(Greek and Co.) and remember, back in his rookie year, Shanny caled him out for being soft in Training Camp.
You can be pissed at McD about Cutler and the Draft, that is your right, but this hold out has nothing to do with McD.
If it were my money, I would want Marshall to go ONE CALENDAR YEAR without —
1. Having a run-in with the law
2. Getting hurt(this is obviously not all his fault, the shredding his arm last year, that cost him all of the OTA’s and Mini-Camps, was)
Then I would give him the money. I know, way too much of a commitment to ask from a FOURTH ROUND DRAFT PICK that has only himself to blame for dropping that low….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Ae you blaming McD for the issues with the Broncos med staff last year?
I’m confused…
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I'm saying I don't blame Marshall
for his decision to rehab away from Broncos camp because of what happened with the medical staff in Denver.
Then I’m also saying the quote from Marshall’s website about his coaches saying he was big-headed, didn’t want to practice and needs to be practicing because his game needs a lot of ‘fine-tuning’ was a quote from McDaniels and his coaching staff, from about a week ago during OTAs, and I don’t think that’s a good way to start off a working relationship with a guy like Marshall who has performed so well for this team the past two years.
And I would have drafted more defensive players and never tried to trade for Cassel.
That quote came from last year.
He hasn’t even practiced yet. He felt he was pressured last year to practice when he was saying he was hurt. That is why he had 2 MRI’s…
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Here is the actual quote from Brandon's Blog....
It’s kind of funny now but last season some of my coaches thought I was getting
"big headed" and just didn’t want to practice but I needed some fine
tuning.
This has nothing to do with McDaniels.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
by John Bena on Jun 18, 2009 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm.... you're right.
Weird, I cut and pasted that quote from where I read it, obviously they didn’t include those two words ‘last season’ which would have made it very clear that this was not an issue with McDaniels but last year’s coaches. You’re right, this has nothing to do with McDaniels.
Excellent post, Guru. Rec'd. Kudos to everyone for some scintillating discussion.
Almost everything has been said – but I would like to add about holdouts in the past with Denver: Bobby Humphrey in 1991 heldout looking for more money over his $400K contract. He cited Mike Kroll getting millions while he was the guy who had two 1000yd seasons. His holdout hastened his exit from the NFL. He was on the field for a couple of plays and then was traded to Miami – and then gone. My feelings at that time was that he did, indeed, have a point and I would have liked the Broncos to tear up his contract and reward him for his service but not give him the moon. Bobby went about it the wrong way. I remember an interview with him when the Lelie situation was going on. If I remember correctly, he regretted his methods.
In reference to BM, his situation is different in that he has an injury and there is no way to accurately project his value this coming year(s). If it were my $20-30 mil, I would trade him if I were offered a #1 or the equivalent. I would wait to write a new contract when I saw how much he would be able to play and how well he could contribute (his health). If he is worth more than the $2.2 mil playing in the new system, I would negotiate a new contract sometime around mid-season. With all that said, in my gut, I really don’t like having on my team someone who really doesn’t want to be here. I actually hope someone offers the moon.
I remember when Al Denson was traded to Minnesota in the early 70’s. He reportedly said that Denver didn’t have any more stars without him. I didn’t see him lighting it up in Minnesota. My thought at that time was good riddance.
Well it's Deja Vu all over again.
Well, this is getting really old regardless of who we are talking about. I voted yes on the condition that nothing can be worked out, which it looks like it may go that way. However, I really hope things can be worked out. I ask one question though. How does everybody take Marshall’s stance on Cutler now? I mean he said something like all those yards and TDs don’t mean a thing if you can’t win. Now I guess it is fair to say to Marshall, all those receptions don’t mean a thing if you can’t get in the endzone, right? I think Guru pretty much put it all out there in this post.
Good job once again Guru for putting up all the facts. It is interesting because I was saying the same thing to myself. You definatly put it better than I would have.
PLEASE, can this be the last nonsense we have to deal with for the offseason.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Boldin trade?
I apologize if someone has already mentioned this, but what about a trade for Anquan Boldin (plus maybe a #3)? Boldin is a good citizen, has great hands and a tough as nails football player. He wants a new contract, too, but in contrast to BM, he actually IS underpaid. Boldin has outperformed his contract, but still showed up to OTA´s on time and in shape.
by Broncosincebirth on Jun 18, 2009 4:19 AM MDT reply actions
My $.02
On one hand I agree that Brandon is not paid on par with his performance. On the other, you simply can not divorce the plays from the player, and so far Brandon has done an admirable job of proving he is an immature player, for his age. Then there is an unanswered health question, what was actually wrong with his hip, and was the surgery a success, and will he ever be 100% again?
I would like to see Brandon stay; the potential in this offense is huge. So I would be in favor of an incentive laden contract. I would be all in favor of a large guaranteed bonus, provided he can avoid being arrested for the entire season. That’s not too much to ask; either he is willing to grow up and use some better judgment, or prove beyond a doubt that he isn’t mature enough to command the money he wants. Then some reasonable performance based incentives, certainly nothing like the numbers from last year, but something more in line with the expectations for this offense.
And on another note; I think this new team is going to surprise a lot of people; even some who are posting on this site. I can’t believe all the negative comments on Orton. He doesn’t have the physical abilities of Cutler; he can’t through the ball through a wooden target from 30 yards…but he can darn sure hit the target. Orton has so much more football smarts than Jay has there isn’t much ground for comparison. We won’t see any of the dumb throws that cost us games because of over estimating his physical ability. He is much more aware of, and willing to work with what the abilities he has. Give the guy a chance, I am pretty sure we are going to be really surprised. In any case, I’m certainly not wasting any energy mourning the departure of Jay; it was his decision. I don’t wish him ill, but I think he’s going to be in for a rude awakening in Chicago this season. He will be facing some formidable defenses without the luxury of the offensive line he left behind. At the same time, Orton will have the time and comfort factor that our best in the NFL line provides; and that fact all by itself will spell the difference in the W-L column between the two quarterbacks…just watch.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Web Stuff
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
