Building a team the Bronco way
Hey everyone. This is my very first post. I’ve been a huge fan of MHR for about a year now, but I’ve never tried my hand at a fan post for the simple reason that I never had an original angle to write on. The posts hear are, in general, so well thought out and informed that it’s hard to find something compelling to write about; if I find something unique or interesting, chances are it’s already been stated. Yet I want to add my two cents in anyway. Hope you enjoy it.
We all know this had been one of the rougher off-seasons in recent memory—we lost every semblance of stability in what seemed to be the blink of an eye. Whoop. There goes the coach, the coach’s staff, the GM, nearly all of the defense, the “franchise” QB, and now it looks like the star wide-receiver wants to blog his way out of town. It’s a lot of adversity for a franchise that seemed to consider itself one key piece away from the super-bowl every year. And with that adversity, a strange thing happened: everyone turned on the Denver Broncos. The MSM gives us no chance. The fans by and large seem disenfranchised, confused. The Broncos we have now do not resemble any Broncos team we have ever seen. Everything has been shook up. You can see it on the DP’s fan postings, people ranting and raving about how their team has been destroyed, how McDaniels was sent here covertly to bring us and all we stand for down. You can see it in the MSM. No one seems to have faith in the Broncos’ decisions. McDaniels and Xanders aren’t making moves that people simply don’t “get.” They’re making moves that people absolutely hate. They, in almost every imaginable way, have gone against the grain of common wisdom, and because of this, they have been vilified. This is not a bad thing. If they continue making moves that, on the surface, people don’t understand, then it can only mean one of two things: Either McD and X-man don’t know what they’re doing, or they know something that everyone else doesn’t. I suggest the latter. It’s okay to be counterintuitive, especially when most commonly held intuitions are wrong.
In the past few years I’ve developed a fascination with the building of a team, with how a GM can shape a team’s success. It appears to be both laughably simple (find the best players) and infinitely complex (what does “best players” even mean?). It is an art and a science, a stimulator of the left brain and the right brain. And it’s a role that has evolved and morphed more than any other position in professional sports today.
One of the ways I weathered the offseason was to research other teams and sports and find out what makes a team tick. The one book that helped to shed light the most was Michael Lewis’ Moneyball about GM Billy Beane and the Oakland A’s of the early 2000’s. Now regardless of what you think about the team and the man, Beane and his ilk brought on a revolutionary way of building a baseball team. He tore down antiquated conventions and replaced them with a new way of thinking—a statistical revolution, a new way to judge a player and a team based on numbers and math, on what the eye can’t see. In basketball, a similar movement is happening with Houston’s GM Daryl Morey, another GM who uses a wealth of stats to build a team and who has had reasonable success. The main point of Moneyball is that there is more of what happens on a field than meets the eye. The market is full of inefficiencies and if the GM can figure out a way to exploit those inefficiencies then they have a great chance for success. The more I follow McD and X-man, the more I believe they follow the Moneyball maxim, and trying to exploit all the “givens” of how a football team is “supposed” to be built. And when you push against the norm, you will gain enemies. But it is better to have the ignorant hate you for what they don’t understand, then to have them praise your decisions.
These are what I believe to be the inefficiencies:
Inefficiency # 1—The Inadequacy of Current Metrics
We all know the dangers of stats. They can be twisted, misrepresented, used in a myriad of different ways all to prove whatever it is you want to prove. The most common example bandied about on MHR is that of offensive yards. When people say the Broncos had the #2 offense, they really mean that we gained the second most yards. Yet as has been proven time and time again, that information is not the proper way to represent the Broncos. To be #2 implies that we were a good offensive team, but we were really quite average in the stat that matters more: Scoring average in which we were an unimpressive 16th. We worked really hard to score very few points. So that’s a simple example of how stats are misleading. But let’s go deeper.
Look at Brandon Marshall. There are many pundits and fans who think we are crazy to hesitate to pay the man big money. After all, outside issues notwithstanding, Marshall has been one the most productive receivers in recent years, right? 104 catches in 2008 alone. By that number, Marshall seems to be pretty dominating. A top 5 receiver. Yet here’s where stats fail us. He was the #1 targeted WR in the league last year (181 times); that’s measurable information. And he only scored 6 td’s despite all those catches. So the real question is, were those 104 catches helpful to the team or counterproductive? How many times was he given the ball in lieu of a more open receiver, someone who could have potentially gained more yards or more points? Think of the first Kansas City game, where Jay stared down BM so egregiously, that he missed a wealth open targets. Sheffler was revealed to be wide open on two of the INT’s Jay threw in BM’s direction. BM was targeted at the expense of better options. And who knows how much that affected the game, how many points might have been left on the board? Cutler and BM could play catch all day, rack up some nice stats, but it’s very possible the numbers came at the cost of better options left on the field. Was the constant targeting of BM a detriment to the team’s overall efficiency and if so, how do we properly measure BM’s worth to the Broncos? Because 104 is the number that keeps coming back up, but what does it mean when only 6 of those 104 were actually for points. I would venture to say that his presence made our team less efficient. Yet we currently have no way of measuring such an effect. BM racked up many of those catches in situations where the ball never should have been thrown his way but no one talks about this.
Stats don’t tell the whole story. It’s why Kyle Orton might be more valuable than Jay Cutler, because every time KO hurts his YPC average to throw it to a checkdown is a time that the ball isn’t turned over. All those stats that make Jay Cutler seem so pretty and KO so ugly are misleading for the simple fact that sometimes the right decision in a football game is the one that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet, which brings me to my next point…
Inefficiency # 2—The Myth of the Superstar
Jay Cutler is something of a superstar. Kyle Orton is not. Jay Cutler looks like a quarterback. Kyle Orton does not. So McD and X-man are fools to want KO and not Cutler. Or at least this seems to be the main argument that continues to be bandied about by the MSM and especially on certain Bronco fan posts. The logic goes that good teams load up on superstars of the highest order and win. That’s a complete fallacy. Tom Brady, the winner of our time, was not supposed to be a superstar. He was drafted in the 6 round which means scouts and teams had serious reservations about his ability to produce at an NFL level. Yes, he is a leader of the highest order, one who makes the right decisions, the right throws, and can produce incredible results in the clutch. Yet his very career came to fruition in what seemed to be the most perfect of circumstances. He happened to be the right player for the right coach at the right time. QB’s drafted in the first round are supposed to be stars. If you’re drafted in the first round, the assumption is that you have what it takes. Brady was not supposed to be a star. Matt Cassel was not supposed to be a star. KO is not supposed to be a star. That’s a good thing.
I am one of those convinced that McD watched Cutler live and on tape and was not impressed. And it’s not the arrogance that many paint it to be, the belief that McD has the ability to turn any schmuck into a viable QB. It’s something different. Brady, Cassel and KO all have something that Cutler doesn’t: awareness of their limitations. KO can throw the ball—all you need to do is watch his TD throw at the end of the bears-falcons game last year to believe it—but watch how he chooses to throw it. Look at some of his incompletions. His missed throws aren’t always due to his arm strength or his inaccuracy. Some are incomplete by choice, they’re throws that he put in areas that only the WR could conceivably get it, nowhere near the defenders. They are calculated risks. And sometimes that means the ball falls in the middle of the field near no one in particular. But I would rather have that then watch balls be rifled into confused defenders’ chests all game. KO won’t be flashy but he will be smart.
This extends to the rest of the team as well. Think about the defensive veterans brought it. They are all selfless, intelligent, versatile players. The only athletic freak is B-Dawk, but he’s aging. Think about how many times our defenders missed tackles last year because they were out of position. A smart player who’s in the right place will always have the chance at the tackle. And the more smart players in position, the more chances at the tackle. Once again, it’s not flashy, but it is efficient. McD views players in a way that is different than we are used to. This is evidenced by my final point
Inefficiency # 3—The Views of the Draft and Drafting for Need
This years draft is a prime example of McD and X-man approaching a league tradition by going against the status quo—and getting blasted for it. They barely addressed our problem areas! We need a DT and we didn’t get one, are they mad?!? No, what they did is something quietly revolutionary, especially with all the Shanahan drafts we’ve seen for this squad. They drafted for value, not for need. Building a team is a long process, and the one way to do it wrong (hello lions) is to reach for a need, to try and take a short cut, grasp at straws for the hope of more wins. You want to maximize value and minimize risk. McD said it himself, they don’t want to draft players just to cut them. All the players drafted carry a very specific skill set, and they all have thos qualities McD loves, selflessness, intelligence, versatility. Not superstars or freaks, but football players. Even Kowshon, who is athletically freakiest of the bunch, was picked because of the little things he does, the blocking, the fighting for yards, all that stuff that once again, doesn’t show up on a stat sheet. We have a draft where we can expect to see almost all of those picked to still be with us years from now. They will all play within themselves and make decisions that help us win games. Will it pay dividends immediately? Maybe not. But Bowlen is a smart man, and I think he knows just how mire in mediocrity the Broncos really were. McD is not under pressure to win now as many would suggest. Time is on his side, despite what everyone thinks.
Many of the writers at MHR have said this already, but I want to reiterate it. McD and X-man have a plan. Look at how they’ve approached every step of the team building process and you can see it. It’s an unfamiliar way of building a team, like nothing we’ve ever seen before with the Broncos. But if they succeed, it will be because they consciously broke from traditions. They decided to go against the accepted “rules” of How to Build a Football Team and instead are finding their own way. Keep the faith friends.
Well that’s my post. Sorry for the length, but I hope you all enjoyed it. Go Broncos.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Fine words indeed my friend.
Rec’d and if I could, I’d Rec it again. I love all of these points because you’re right. Great post.
"It means nothing to throw for 4500 yards, 25 touchdowns, and you dont win" -Brandon Marshall
Great Write up Bowma
Agree with it all,
I don’t want my Broncos to be normal and comfortable, our ‘semblance of stability’ was really just our warm and comfortable blanket of mediocrity.
Great breakdown on the inefficiencys.
Rec’d
Building a team the *new* Bronco way
Wow. Great post. Wholeheartedly agree with many of your claims. I have had the same sense that there is an underlying philosophy and intelligence to what is going on that is being missed by many in the MSM. You did a great job of breaking this down into a few well-articulated inefficiencies. Here’s to a book in a few years on the Broncos and McD that sounds eerily like MoneyBall! : )
by NedBronco on Jun 19, 2009 6:04 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post Bowma
Very fine insight into the Josh McDaniels era. Great to discuss something other than the BM situation. Rec’d.
Love it Bowma rec'd
especially this one
it is better to have the ignorant hate you for what they don’t understand, then to have them praise your decisions.
"as in football so in life"
You are right on the Money!
This is the best insight I have read that helps articulate an accurate view of the new direction we are taking as a team. I can philosophically be in support of all the decisions Coach McDaniels has made without seeing them come to fruition because they will undoubtably lead to more team cohesiveness and a team character that will make me proud in victory and defeat. This administration’s unconventional approach to team building both through addition and subtraction may be difficult to endure for fans or media whose only measurements of successes are fantasy football stats, but to fans like me it offers hope for a whole new type of team. I want team leaders that I don’t have to make excuses for when they display immature or illegal behavior. I want competitors that battle with intelligence and strategy as well as physical skills. I don’t want to worry about whether we will lose by 40 because of mental meltdowns and teammates giving up on each other, and that if we lose it will be as a team. I believe that the greatest inefficiency we have exploited was a dearth of character. I have never been more excited for the season to start so that the massive backpedalling and eating of words can ensue. Go Broncos.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena" Theodore Roosevelt
Great stuff! Rec'd.
All you get from drafting the "best player available" is a team full of good football players.
superstars, we don't need YOUR superstars
howd the signing of Superstars work for Dallas and Washington? Who’d you rather have, T.O. or Hines Ward? TO gives the numbers and antic while Ward does the down field blocking and thinks like a QB in his route running (I forget the college but he was QB). While Pats and Pittsburg have very few ‘SuperStars’ but are very successful. They tend to draft and development talent (Brady, Harrison, Ward, Bruski) better then most. I don’t think McD is changing the way teams should approach things, he’s just one of the early converts-sort of how suddenly everyone is thinking the Wildcat or 3-4 def are "the way’
look forward to reading many more of your future insiteful post.
rec’d
sbhchawk
Here to drink the KoolAid poured by KO
great first post & welcome aboard & rec'd
awesome summary and great insights.
can’t wait to see what you come up with next.
:D
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Another insightful post
And your first? Sorry for the length? Kidding on both accounts right?
That was an awesome post! Especially couldn’t agree more with broncosaurus’ line:
“I have never been more excited for the season to start so that the massive backpedalling and eating of words can ensue.”
Inspiring post Bowma101 – Thanks and Rec’d!
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jun 19, 2009 9:37 AM MDT reply actions
Excellent!
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Fantastic post...
Love the way you approached BMarsh’s stats within the context of overall value to the team. Thanks for the great insights…
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
Great post, and rec'd!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Well written, well thought through
I’m glad that you made the jump to writing this post and I hope that you don’t make us wait too long for another. Welcome! Rec’d!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Don't apologize for the length
An article this good is too short almost by definition. I didn’t want it to end. I stopped and recommended it before I got to the end, something I rarely do. You made one good point after another.
Let’s start with Cutler to Marshall. It is too true that too many times a well-covered Marshall was targeted when others were open. I wouldn’t say it was Marshall’s presence that made the team less efficient, however, but Cutler’s reluctance or inability to spread the ball around that made Brandon less efficient. First, even if Brandon were the best on the team at catching the ball in a given situation, he’s not better at catching it triple-covered than someone else is while ten yards in the clear. Teams figured out the Broncos during the first three games, when they really were one of the top-scoring teams in the league. Blanket Marshall, because that’s where the ball is going. And from that point on the Broncos’ offense was not merely average but was one of the worst in the league. If Cutler had spread the ball around Marshall would have been open more often, and probably would have scored as many TDs, maybe even more, on fewer catches. And a higher percentage of balls going to other, less blanketed receivers would have been caught, and some of those would have been TDs, also. Marshall caught only 57% of the balls thrown his way, whereas Royal, if I’m not mistaken, caught something like 71%.
Second, if Marshall had been used that way he’d have been more valuable, yet would have a less exaggerated sense of his importance. He is a potentially valuable player in McDaniels’ system, moreso than Cutler. For a wide receiver he’s a tremendous blocker — that’s one of the things I really like about his game — and if teams can’t concentrate on him so exclusively he’ll have more room to operate when the ball does come his way. When it comes to his play on the field most of Marshall’s downside is due to the way Cutler used him, not to his own tendencies. Even his tendency to dance around and give ground was less evident last year than the year before.
That brings me to Cutler. I, too, am convinced that when McDaniels reviewed Cutler’s on-field performances he wasn’t impressed. That’s why I don’t buy the idea that McDaniels didn’t seriously consider Cassell, that he just answered the phone, or that he botched the attempt to repair the relationship. If he’d really wanted Cutler he’d be playing for us right now. At first I thought he blew it in not making the trade for Cassell, but I later realized he thought he could do better than a straight-up trade (actually, a little less than straight-up). It wasn’t so much that Cassell was the one guy he wanted. Rather, he wanted somebody other than Cutler, and Orton was the one he liked best of those who were available. Orton wasn’t merely the best he could salvage from the disaster of losing a superstar. He was the kind of quarterback he wanted all along, that he didn’t have with Cutler. And we got those picks in addition. Broncobear’s brilliant article on the evolution of the modern passing game, in which he mentioned Virgil Carter going from a 45% to a 62% completion percentage under Walsh, gives some idea of what McDaniels might be able to do with Orton. It need not be nearly as dramatic an improvement to be decisive.
One myth I’d like to puncture is the notion that Cutler is talented and Orton isn’t. It comes from a narrow definition of talent, one in which arm strength and accuracy are the sole metrics. Orton is arguably better at going through his progressions and finding the open receiver or, as you pointed out, throwing the ball where only the receiver can get it, leading sometimes to incompletions that are actually good plays. Being able to do that is just as much a skill, I suspect a more important one, as being able to throw an accurate fastball. Orton is a better player for McDaniels’ offense, and he might be a better player, period.
Finally, your remarks about McDaniels and Xanders going against the grain are on the nose. Having everyone disagree with you doesn’t by itself mean you’re a genius, but if you are one they will disagree. In that case is it really plausible that the guy everybody saw as a hot coaching prospect, who completely blew away Bowlen and Ellis, was actually an inept doofus all along? Or does it make more sense that he really is that good, so good that conventional thinking can’t make sense of his moves. I think, as you do, given your reference to Moneyball, that Bowlen was extremely savvy in seeing the potential of the kind of approach McDaniels and Xanders could bring to the Broncos, in terms of evaulating player value and building an effective team. He really is one of the best owners in sports.
Needless to say, I loved your article. You did a great job.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Jun 19, 2009 11:39 AM MDT reply actions 11 recs
I don't think McDaniels is impressed by any behavior other than wanting to win. Nice spock.
by bfree2bronc on Jun 19, 2009 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
You said it right the first time
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Cutler’s reluctance or inability to spread the ball around that made Brandon less efficient.
Great point! I don’t know how many times last year that I smashed my toe Kicking the wall and screeming at Jay to check down!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 19, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm sending my medical bills to JC via "Da Bears"
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 19, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks Spock. I agree that BM’s inefficiency probably is more on the shoulders of Cutler than him. That’s one of those immeasurables we talk about when we use the cliché about a player making those around him better. Theoretically, BM’s presence and double teaming should have opened up other plays for other players, but it didn’t, at least not consistently. The problem is, how do we measure such an effect with current stats? We can’t. To draw away defenders takes skill but it has no statistical representation. Which means Brandon’s numbers can be interpreted in both positive and negative ways.
Should have opened up plays for other players
It might well have done so, but if Cutler couldn’t find the open man Marshall’s value in pulling coverage away from other players was negated. And having that many good receivers was also negated, because our QB too often locked on to his primary receiver and hence didn’t take advantage of the wealth of talent we had at the WR position. As you say, we can’t measure that effect with current statistics. That’s why they can be so misleading. But I think we have a coach who does see such things and draws the appropriate conclusions.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Of course the efficiency issue works the other way,
sometimes Marshall’s failure to read the defense made Cutler inefficient. I can remember one play in particular against Cleveland in which Cutler threw an interception because Marshall was supposed to break one way and incorrectly broke the other. It often seemed to me that Cutler was frustrated with Marshall for various mistakes. Again, hard to capture these things in stats, but I am sure that McD went back and looked at every one of Cutler’s interceptions to determine how many were his fault. I am also sure that looked at every snap from last year to determine how often Cutler properly read the defense. I completely agree with Spock in that I don’t think McD was impressed with Cutler. Although I don’t know of any evidence for it, you are probably right that McD thought that he could get a better deal. It makes a lot of sense. I guess we won’t know until McD wins his first Super Bowl as a head coach.
by Orange Crush II on Jun 19, 2009 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Good point
Marshall has made Cutler look bad on occasion. Like you say, McDaniels has undoubtedly reviewed every play. The other side of the coin is that there were times he should have been intercepted and wasn’t. Since we agree that McDaniels wasn’t satisfied with Cutler, it remains to be seen how accurate his judgment is versus Angelo’s. That’s what makes this upcoming season so compelling. How will Cutler do with Orton’s team and vice versa? The comparison won’t be perfect because the Bears have upgraded their o-line, but it’ll still be revealing. Stay tuned.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Rec'd comment Spock.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 19, 2009 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
There you go Bowma
When you elicit a lengthy comment like that from Spock, you’ve accomplished something!
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Your follow up comments to a very well written article were exactly right, Spock.
by St. James Bronc on Jun 20, 2009 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
EXCELLENT post!
Rec’d!
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world." - Calvin from Calvin & Hobbes
Thanks so much everyone.
And keep up the good work with your own comments and posts. This is a daily site for me (maybe even an hourly one) thanks to your everyone’s good and well thought out work.
Ditto!
I already Rec’d and said “excellent post” above, but, like you, this site has become a multiple times a day read for me.
So a big thanks to MHR for being a constant distraction throughout my day! I mean, who wants to be caught up on all of their work and always meet their deadlines? ;-)
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world." - Calvin from Calvin & Hobbes
by RockyMtnHigh on Jun 20, 2009 6:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow.
Keep posting Bowma101. Keep posting.
Rec’d!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
Awesome!!!
That’s one of the best Fanpost I’ve read at Mile High Report.
I concure by saying: Imagine a team where they ALL play like Peyton Hillis and Champ Bailey.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 19, 2009 2:09 PM MDT reply actions
+1000
Great post Bowma !!!! Very well written & informative.
Wonderful Post!
Highly Rec’d! I agree with everything you said. Bottom line: When the MSM starts liking the Broncos moves, that’s when I will start to worry.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
Unless we convert the MSM, that is.
Of course, then you’ve got to watch out for the pendulum swinging back to hit you in the arse, but on the whole I’ll enjoy the feeling for a while
"3rd and 6, Elway shotgun... Elway, scrambling, looking, running-- DIVING!!!-- inside the 5 yard line for a first down! Is he only 37?! How important is this football game? How bad does John Elway want to win this football game? Where you see the quarterbacks go down: Not Elway!"
by Sharpe as a Tack on Jun 19, 2009 7:50 PM MDT up reply actions
It's already begun.
I’ve already sent emails to MJD, Michael Silver and pretty much every other major Yahoo writer. Although Michael Silver doesn’t always bash the Broncos, he could use a bit of education.
Peyton Hills is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Posiden.
My goodness bowma, where have you been most this sites life? This is really a good post!!
Welcome!!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
Fantastic post. Well done!
You think logically and well. You also are very good at putting an idea clearly and (relative to its complexity) succinctly.
Great summarization, and keep up the good work!
"3rd and 6, Elway shotgun... Elway, scrambling, looking, running-- DIVING!!!-- inside the 5 yard line for a first down! Is he only 37?! How important is this football game? How bad does John Elway want to win this football game? Where you see the quarterbacks go down: Not Elway!"
by Sharpe as a Tack on Jun 19, 2009 7:51 PM MDT reply actions
uhh
yeah blame cutler for an 8-8 year
when the broncos had the 30th ranked defense
if anything cutler was the reason they hit .500
do you HONESTLY think kyle orton is a better option than cutler?
i didnt think so
yes I do.
Look at the stats my friend. Also consider EVERYTHING else too. Off the field, maturity, decision making, etc.
Yes, Kyle Orton is the better quarterback. By leaps and bounds, he is better.
Peyton Hills is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Posiden.
I do to Andrew...
With our offensive weapons, I will take Orton.
he does not have the glitz of Cutler, but he will carry a team, and the team will play for him.
Cutler was in large part the reason we threw away those last 3 games…..I was over him after that, so I guess I was not that upset when he was traded.
I dont believe in him…..and his capitulation in those last 3 games was pathetic…especially his performance against the Chargers.
Orton will keep fighting….and thats waht I want in a QB.
20 – 12 in Chicago, with no weapons and no O line tells me all I need to know!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I agree with you, but I think you have to consider THIS point andrew is making...
when the broncos had the 30th ranked defense
Orton played on the Chicago Bears…yes THE Chicago Bears
I went and took a look at some of his wins and I saw defensive playmaking, such as interceptions and interception returns for a touchdown. Throw some special teams TDs in there as well. Were the defensive plays and special teams issues the ONLY reason Chicago won those games? Of course not. Orton was able to manage the game on the offensive side.
However, when you’re giving up TDs on D like Denver was last season at times, I challenge Kyle Orton to keep up in shootout fashion like that. Very few QBs can. Good defense can help make better quarterbacks by picking up the wins.
Now, what could mitigate the “shootout effects” is the way the Broncos might end up playing with Orton at the helm. Orton has a different skill set than Cutler and the focus this coming season may be more on both the running game and a spread distribution of the football. This could help control the clock, if successful and give the team more time on offense instead of going big, hitting third downs, and then stepping off the field. So that could end up playing in Denver’s favor with the new QB this season, but I still think you have to consider the defense when you’re considering win loss records like we are. No doubt, I know you’ve certainly considered that point…but that’s what I’m going to take out of the andrew post rather than Cutler v. Orton (because, like you, I’m feeling pretty good about it…I think he works with the new style that we might end up seeing).
It’s something to look at…
The Broncos under Cutler won
…when they should have (usually, at least) and lost when they were expected to. In short, he was a glorified game manager. He never transcended the talent around him.
I think this quote is actually the most square on assessment of why I, in hindsight, have cooled considerably on his legend:
and his capitulation in those last 3 games was pathetic
Thanks for summing it up nicely, Boydy
Either he has wacked out body language, or he was generally the first guy to get frustrated and throw in the towel.
The reality is that you can talk about the QB that Cutler should be until the cows come home. But if you look at the reality, he’s been underwhelming where it matters: real on-field production, win-loss, and overall leadership and impact on those around him. I think you can sum up Jay Cutler on his final meaningful play in Denver…when he missed an open Brandon Stokely in the back of the endzone. The guy was along for the ride…and hardly driving the bus.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 20, 2009 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Ghost who Walks
Orton played on the Chicago Bears…yes THE Chicago Bears…However, when you’re giving up TDs on D like Denver was last season at times, I challenge Kyle Orton to keep up in shootout fashion like that. Very few QBs can. Good defense can help make better quarterbacks by picking up the wins.
Fair enough, my friend. Just a note of balance, though – The Chi Bears defense ranked a lousy 21st in the league. Better than ours (few were not) but still fairly poor.
I agree with the generalization that Orton ‘managed’ games. He managed to win quite a few of them. His decision-making was a lot better. overall, than Cutler’s which i believe that you alluded to. His receivers were pretty awful, other than Olsen and Forte, and yes, after about Week 4 I’d lump Lloyd into that pile. Lloyd had a great, 6 reception, 124 yard game in Week 3 and then sat from Week 5 to Week 11 (both injuries and performance was what I was told, but haven’t confirmed yet). It’s very hard to say how Orton would do in a shootout with a more varied running game (I love Forte but a single back team has difficulty), pro level receivers and a front 5 that actually keeps the defenders off the QB (the Bears ran a 7.24 sack % against the blitz and am utterly vile 11.43% sack percentage on 3rd down. Joe Montana couldn’t do much in a shootout with those numbers.
My point isn’t really to disagree with you, but to frame the circumstance realistically. I know that your last paragraph agrees with what I can foresee and I’m not trying to pull you down on this. Just looking at a side of the situation that a lot of posters, including andrew don’t seem to be aware of.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Why does everyone think I'm trying to rule on the Cutler v. Orton situation?
I’m not at all. Like I said…I’m FOR Orton. Okay…while the defense may not be that big of a factor at all anyway, it does play some of a point…does it not? Also, on the running game side of things, don’t forget Orton had Thomas Jones for at least a year when he did a lot of his playing. Again, I’m sorry if you’ve mistaken me for agreeing with the original poster on the quarterback. I’m just trying to say that not all he’s saying is baloney.
And I also wanted to say...
both you and spock made some extremely valid and educated points which I appreciate to help set the record straight. I don’t know I just don’t like when people jump on a guy for his opinion I guess so I wanted to try and see if I could take something from whatever point he was trying to make and turn it into a somewhat viable argument…or at least something that needs to be considered in this case. Even if the argument’s not fully there, I’m always trying to help a fellow MHR member out and at least generate some further discussion out of it. Like I said, I’m with you guys here, but I figured If I try to get to the heart of andrew’s point, if he reads all this discussion, maybe he’ll start moving towards changing his mind.
Again, as I’ve said before, I appreciate all the work guys like you, spock and everyone else do here both in the comments section and on the main page. Educated fans like you help add so much more insight to the sporting world. You guys are one of the reasons MHR is such an amazing site. It’s always a pleasure to discuss sports with you gentlemen (even if it is only on an online message board).
Didn't mean to be argumentative at all
My point isn’t really to disagree with you, but to frame the circumstance realistically. I know that your last paragraph agrees with what I can foresee and I’m not trying to pull you down on this. Just looking at a side of the situation that a lot of posters, including andrew don’t seem to be aware of.
Nothing more. I went about 20 comments up and didnt find anything in spock that disagreed with you, so I guess that’s between you two, Phan. Just talking football, really
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Just in CMA mode that’s all :) Making sure there are no differences to be had. A pleasure to talk football with you any time there Half Horse Half Bear :)
bear do you think Orton had anything to do with us getting Lloyd?
Or was it coincidental in the fact that McDaniels pcked him up?
by bfree2bronc on Jun 21, 2009 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions
No coincidence
Orton likes him, he’s a familiar target, and with some quality coaching he could be a nice piece of the puzzle.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Consider, too, how Cutler affected our defense
I just checked some stats. We already know that Orton had a better red-zone rating, 96.0 to 74.1, ditto for the last 2 minutes of the half, 101.8 to 83.6. The difference between them when backed up inside the 20 was even more telling. Inside his own 20 Cutler had a much higher first down percentage, 32.6% vs. 20.5%, but a much worse TD-INT ratio. Nobody has a high TD-INT ratio inside their own 20, but Orton minimized the damage with a 0-1 ratio, while Cutler’s was 1-7. If you consider what each did on his own side of the 50, Orton’s ratio was 2 TDS and 5 INTs, Cutler’s was 2 TDs and 13 INTs. Cutler was more likely to make a first down near his own goal line, but he was also more likely to give up a quick 6 or leave his defense with its back to the goal line. His gambling tendency was most evident on his own side of the field, when he was basically risking an opponent TD for the possibility of a first down. I don’t have to tell you what that implies about his judgment. The stats were from nfl.com, by the way.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Good work Spock
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Thank you much for the statistics. Again, I noticed everyone replied to my comment, so I want to say that I in no way am for Cutler over Orton. I even mentioned that. My point was just that I think you have to consider the defense at least a little bit (even if you take 0.15% of your total consideration of the issue) in a situation like this. Trust me, I don’t need the stats to realize Orton is a better fit. So again, I hope I was not misunderstood here. Also I alluded to the “gambling tendency” when I mentioned Cutler getting to third downs and then watching the team leave the field. Instead of spreading the ball and maybe controlling the clock he did look deep in a number of instances and throw it around a lot.
Thanks for the research as always. Also, I just saw Star Trek today (the new one) and found it very, very entertaining (if you haven’t seen it I recommend you do so. And how fitting it is that both Spock & "Kaptain"Kirk are in the house. :)
I think we're safe the way it is...
I mean, unless you like villains in your story :)
Maybe we can get some Raider fan to come in and represent the Klingon presence and have spock here take him down with superior intellect and logical statements.
A neck pinch will suffice.
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
by KaptainKirk on Jun 20, 2009 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions
No one blames Cutler for the broncos going 8-8
To think so is to miss the point. There’s just way too many factors that go into an team’s overall record. To place it on the shoulders of just one player’s performance is incredibly misguided and silly. It’s important to remember that the Broncos were flawed both defensively and offensively In my analysis of Cutler I don’t even take the defense into account because only he can account for his performance. And my take is that although he racked up the yards, he was in many ways a liabiliity. He locked on to BM too much, he made a litany of poor decisions, and he wasn’t the leader he should have been. Yes, he did get us a fair amount of touchdowns, but look at his redzone numbers and the ints as well. He left a lot of points on the field. He was, as was the post’s point, inefficient. KO is not as good an athlete, no one is debating that. But I do think he won’t leave as many points on the field as the Cutler led offense did. Look for a lower number of total drives and a higher amount of drives converted into TD’s this year.
instant classic
well done bowma. This post will have its moment in the sun now, but I have a feeling it will be referenced often in the coming year, and beyond.
Rec’d.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 20, 2009 2:31 AM MDT reply actions
Well...I don't have a comment on anything in the article to post per se, but...
I will say…great post and a wonderful first one at that. Well put together…keep it up! Rec’d here for sure.
Wow
This is pretty wild. Folks changing their perceptions entirely to fit the new laundry.
Or Moving On.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 20, 2009 8:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Unlike fans of every other team in sports, I presume
It’s normal for fans, whatever situation their team finds itself in, to look for and accentuate the positive. And if the ownership is competent and the team isn’t Detroit (but I repeat myself) there’s often something positive to accentuate. But it’s not true that everyone criticizing Cutler has changed their perceptions entirely. Some of us were aware of and worried about his propensity for locking on to one receiver and his decision-making, but he was our guy and we hoped he’d grow out of it. Now he’s not our guy so we no longer care if he grows out of it.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Jun 21, 2009 1:59 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will absolutely root for Cutler in Chicago
He should have been the franchise and I hold no grudge against him whatsover.
by rururuland784 on Jun 21, 2009 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions
hard to argue
with such a well-thought out critique as that, rururuland784.
A critique of what?
You know, it’s also okay to be a realist. To me, changing perceptions about players who our hopes were pinned to based on a whim (and not by actions on the field) is less fan-like.
I’m all for rooting and accentuating the positive, but I will never fall victim to blind patriotism as it seems this board has.
by rururuland784 on Jun 21, 2009 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Careful
I would never call it “blind partiotism.” What I’ve loved about this site is how people follow the broncos in a manner that is anything but blind. They take issues that are important to the time (ie, Cutler, BM, the draft) and try to place them in a context, maybe to even understand the decisions that are made by the people who made them. Its not as if the moment we got Orton everyone unanimously decided he was a better QB than Jay. Rather, there was a great dialogue throughout the site as to what KO brings to the table as a player, what his positives are, what his negatives are, and in what ways he might be able to help the Broncos out. You don’t have to agree with the points, that’s entirely fair. But at the same time, don’t demean the thought and research people put into this site as a “whim” or “blind patriotism.”
by bowma101 on Jun 21, 2009 9:32 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
We all rationalize it’s just that some of us choose to accept attempts at objectivity.
MHR does have great commentary and analysis. I truly mean that. But I would be wary of calling it truth-seeking.
by rururuland784 on Jun 22, 2009 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Good Insights
I’ve only recently found Mile High Report. These kinds of posts will keep me coming back for more. Good job bowma.
Hope you are right...
well, sure hope they do have a plan… and i hope Knowshawn runs like i dare say…
a horse.
bd
I often notice how regulars over at the DP board
Are a lot less likely to spew doom and gloom here.
Instead it’s posts like, “I sure hope you are right that the plan that I’ve been saying they don’t have really does exist, and that the Broncos do well, even though I’ve spent months shouting that they’ll go 4-12 and that McSawedoffrunt has RUINED THE FRANCHISE!”
Only they replace the juicy bits with elipses…
Fascinating.
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt
and react to what they say here. I think they deserve credit for showing up on MHR and making an effort to fit in with the very different culture we have here. Let’s make them feel welcome.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
Awesome, Awesome, Awesome
This is tremendous. For my money, I’ve loved what McD and X are doing. I coach baseball and softball at both the high school and competitive club levels. My philosophy is this – you have to have high character players in your natural “leadership” positions (in baseball, shortstop, catcher, first base, and center field are what I consider the “leadership” positions). In order to win, you need players that are versatile. What I mean by this in baseball is that they must be excellent at one position, but adequate in others if needed there in a pinch. This is what I see McD and X doing. I think that’s part of why I’m already a fan of Josh McDaniels – he seems a lot like me, even though I’m a lot bigger than he is, and I’m paid a lot less. I see him in press conferences, and I get it. He’s a guy that could talk football all day, just like I could talk baseball all day. He also seems to have this “I know my team better than you do, and I know what I want to do with it” attitude, although not in a smug way, which is always the way that I feel about my team.
I may turn this into a FanPost, because there’s a lot more that I could write. Excellent post, and rec’d!
"Horton is win."
--Horvil Tiki
by wtnelson on Jun 20, 2009 8:51 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Looking forward to that wt
With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg
Hear hear
Please do – fascinating perspective. Do you coach other sports as well?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
No
I got into coaching competitive softball in high school (I’m only 20), and I’ve done it since, going on to coach at my old stomping grounds, Windsor High School. I have a baseball team for the summer, since I can’t coach the older softball players, as I had some of them at the high school last fall. Sometimes I hate CHSAA.
"Horton is win."
--Horvil Tiki
Great post bowma!
Very good read and you are right on the button. Just because the MSM doesn’t agree with what McDaniels does, doesn’t mean that he has no clue in what he is doing. McDaniels and Xanders have a plan in mind like other organizations in building a team, so it is funny that no media outlet can even see it. Other than here at MHR, nobody has even mentioned how Culter locks on to Marshall and how that has affected our offense. Then again it’s the MSM so I shouldn’t really be surprised.
Don’t apologize for the length at all bowma. You got your point across and that is the key.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
MSM should never be considered anything close to an authority
and I’m sick of Denver fans of all sports complaining about the MSM. However, there are legitimate arguments that MSM has made re: the last 6 months and it should not be frowned upon if Bronco fans share them, at least in part.
Every great dialogue, every great small group dynamic (or large group) needs dissent. There is far too much consensus on this board to truly illicit the potential that it has.
by rururuland784 on Jun 21, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions
So write up a fanpost and give us your dissent.
I’ll make a bet with you – if it’s well written you will get a lot of opposition AND get lots of recommendations as well.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 22, 2009 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
great post.
:)
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.

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