Horse Tracks 6/19/09 - BMarsh goes to camp (not that one); Lloyd, Dumervil & Ayers show how it's REALLY done

by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 19, 2009 4:50 AM MDT in Horse Tracks Comment 49 comments

Horsetracks_new_medium

DB - Broncos Release Five Players
In addition to the previously reported cuts of LBs Boss Bailey and Louis Green, Denver let go of three more players - S Herana-Daze Jones, RB Kestahn Moore and CB Rashod Moulton.

DP - Broncos' Marshall captivates kids at youth camp
BMarsh and his agent spoke briefly with reporters at Marshall's football clinic; Kennard McGuire said he's been in "constant" contact with the front office, while Marshall says he's "10 times better" physically than he was in Week 1 of last year.

DP - Brandon Marshall Hosts Football Clinic - Video
Footage from BMarsh's clinic and a brief interview with Marshall.

NFL - Broncos' Marshall keeps quiet about status at youth football camp
AP take on BMarsh, along with a video report from NFLTA (including an appearance by Dave Krieger).

DB - Lloyd Excited to Play in Denver
New Broncos WR Brandon Lloyd is already working out with his teammates, and he has some choice compliments for Kyle Orton. Lloyd says the QB "can throw a fastball, a touch ball (and) an awesome deep ball."

DB - Finishing Strong
Elvis Dumervil posts a blog entry; he's sticking around for another week to achieve 100% offseason participation (no financial incentive). Dumervil says training camp will "separate the men from the boys" and he looks forward to relaxing at home with his family until then.

LTC - Ayers looks for deal to get done
LB/DE Robert Ayers says he will be in camp from day one and that "money is secondary." Great to hear, although his agent will surely cringe when he reads/hears that quote.

AJC - Ex-Falcon Foster likely headed to Rams
The Broncos were apparently interested in Falcons OT Renardo Foster but lost out when St. Louis claimed him on waivers.

CM - Bad first impression
Tim O'Sullivan joins the crowd in panning Josh McDaniels' every move.

DB - 2009 Media Guide Released
The media guide is available for partial and full downloads on DB.com

LVS - Brandon, Thomas hoping to build alumni bridge at UNLV
Sam Brandon headed to his alma mater to help coach the defensive backs at a team camp.

CD - Clarett asks to get out of prison early
Good luck with that one, Mo...

NFP - Big concerns in Oakland - Matt Bowen

SFC - Raiders practice brims with news and notes

KCS - Chiefs and Missouri agree on deal for training camp

SDUT - Chargers again mull Oceanside for stadium site

NFL - Commissioner Goodell suspends Stallworth indefinitely

NFL - Louisiana Senate approves deal to keep Saints in Big Easy

NFP - Diner morning news: Why wait on Freeman?
Lombardi thinks the Bucs should hand Josh Freeman their starting QB job.

NFP - The road to '09: Tennessee Titans

NFLN - NFL Videos: 32 in 32: Tampa Bay Buccanneers

SI - Tony Romo under scrutiny for Dallas Cowboys' lack of success

NFLN - NFL Videos: The Carucci report
Vic Carucci thinks Larry Foote, Greg Ellis and Colin Cole are fine acquisitions for their new teams.

NFL - In spirit, father of Eagles WR DeSean Jackson continues to inspire

FOX - Bulger admits this is his last chance - Alex Marvez

NFP - A proposal for a 17th game - Robert Boland

NFL - Top 10 most outrageous characters in NFL history

NFP - 2009 NFP scouting series: Missouri

NFL - Clemson's Spiller, LSU's Scott tops among college senior RB prospects - Gil Brandt

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Thanks for the Horse Tracks, NYC.

"Call me a cannibal!"

by Tempestuous Binary on Jun 19, 2009 5:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks NYC...

Who is Tim O’ SUllivan and who would anyone care about his opinion? This is THE worst article I have ever read and reeks of payback. Did McDaniels steal his girl friend at school or something??
I had to laugh….Brandon was sharing his “wisdom” with the kids?? Hope there was a lot of drills out the camp, as that would have taken all of 20 seconds. BM could write all his wisdom on one side of a tylenol!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Jun 19, 2009 6:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Contrary View

I think O’Sullivan argued a credible alternative viewpoint to that being argued for those who support all of McDaniels’ decisions. I find it fascinating how some have turned on Broncos they were cheering on in December.

You don’t have to create turmoil when you change coaching staffs, take a good look at Baltimore and Atlanta in 2008. McDaniels has chosen to display a personality well described by O’Sullivan.

Can he mature? Yes, Belichik did. In his second job, not in Cleveland.

However, I agree with you on Hillis and Rod Smith, both solid people developed under Mike Shanahan.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

I don’t think he has shown me any arrogance in his decisions. What I have seen is a coach with a plan AND the conviction to stick to the plan. That is not arrogance . . . that is the blueprint to success.

All indications out of Dove Valley are that the TEAM is buying into what he is selling. Read and listen to the comments from the players being interviewed. Cutler, and now Brandon, are the ones that are ARROGANT by putting themselves before the team.

What bothers me is that Coach McDaniels is getting thrown under the bus for something he has ABSOLUTELY no control over . . . Brandon Marshall’s contract. This has nothing to do with the coach. This has everything to do with money. Period. The issue here is between Bowlen and Marshall.

O’Sullivan has shown me why I don’t read anything from the MSM. All he did was regurgatate (sp?) what all the other haters have already lambasted McDaniels about. IMO, he is nothing more than a hack and tool!

Go Broncos.

"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes

by HSFBCoach on Jun 19, 2009 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No Control?

You don’t think McDaniels had any say or control over both Marshall’s and Weigmann’s contracts? I find that extremely hard to accept.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Weigmann's is done....what would you like him to do BB...seriously....give all of us a solution.

by boydy2669 on Jun 19, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shifting the Issue

The Weigmann contract was easy, and it is done, now, fortunately. Could it have been done earlier, of course.

The point on Marshall is that it is certainly is McDaniels’ problem or his opportunity, and he certainly has input on what to do with his contract.

Now, did anything happen between when McDaniels got the job and now regarding the Marshall contract?

Certainly the Marshall problem is a complex one, but the idea that he isn’t a player in the Bronco handling of the situation is naive and I think incorrect.

Let’s see how McDaniels handles this one. Its part of his job and it is an opportunity to show some leadership.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am asking for how you think McD should handle it....

He is the HC, he has KNOWLEDGE of everything, as he should, but I am simply asking you what you suggest he does. You are giving him a hard time for not doing enough, but dont have a solution to the problem. Thats waht I find a little bit hard to understand.

by boydy2669 on Jun 19, 2009 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Be Honest

If McDaniels values his #1 WR, then he should have aggressively sought some solutions to the contract issue and to his behavioral deficits long before now.. Something must have happened in the relationship between McDaniels, the Broncos and Marshall between the Cutler trade and now to have soured the relationship.

Neither you, nor I know the details of what has gone on between them.

So, either McDaniels pushes to solve the problem, he pushes to trade him, or the thing hangs over the Bronco camp like a fresh fish aging in the fridge. A leader will solve the problem. I hope he does.

Everyone who thinks that Brian Xanders is calling the shots on this one feel free to raise their hands, but I don’t. I think McDaniels has the keys to the bus and he is driving it. Just my opinion.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's quite an assumption

I would think Bowlen, Xanders and McDaniels all have a lot of input here…

by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 19, 2009 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

but I think the Coach is calling a lot of the shots at this point. Bowlen made it clear that McDaniels was making the decisions, and I think Xanders is there because McDaniels found it easier to work with him than the Goodmans. I am sure they are all backchecking with each other on this one… and I do not envy their current predicament. I think the Cutler situation would have been much easier to solve than this one.

Just assumptions.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ridiculous

It’s not “arrogant” to wait and see on a new contract until the player requesting the contract is checked out medically and, in Marshall’s case, cleared to play by the league after his August court date.

The Broncos have him under contract. After the black eye ESPN gave the Broncos and Marshall with their hamfisted Outside the Lines report, it may make good marketing sense to wait on rewarding a guy frequently accused of domestic violence until he is fully cleared.

by JeffG on Jun 19, 2009 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Respectful Disagreement

Let me respectfully disagree with your comment titled “Ridiculous” in that you are conflating different comments made in different contexts about McDaniels and the Marshall contract.

I think McDaniels has been arrogant in the way he has handled the offense during this past off-season, but you obviously disagree. Mine is a legitimate viewpoint of which you apparently disagree with that as well.

As for the contract, you are correct that behavioral issues are all tied up in matters with Marshall. None of us know what has gone on with that. None of us knows what will go on with a domestic violence charge, but it may well be a he said, she said conflict in which the prosecution may have a hard time proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Credibility will be a big issue in that case. No one wants to reward Marshall for his inability to control his emotions with domestic partners… it is a problem he must want to solve himself, but items can be placed in a new contract to address that.

As for the medical issues, I would hope that the Broncos and Marshall had worked in tandem to deal with a hip problem that was treated by the Bronco medical staff. Whether there are issues arising out of that, and it is none of our business, then I could understand Marshall being upset if that is being used as a basis for not going forward with the contract. Marshall is upset for some reasons that we may not know or understand, but, again, my impression is there is responsibility on the part of the Broncos in this conflict as well as with Marshall.

So, ridicule me if you will, but I think if the team valued a player who was so productive and talented the past two years, the situation should not be where it is now. You may think we have a spectacular receiving corps without Marshall, but I do not.

Now, some may wish to place all the responsibility for the handling of players like Cutler and Marshall on the players themselves, and they bear part of the blame, but others sometimes actually find organizations responsible for their actions, or inactions as well. Most organizations value their strong players and make them feel like they do.

I think others could have handled these player situations better than Josh McDaniels has. Its my opinion.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the argument in a nutshell

Most organizations value their strong players and make them feel like they do.

The Steelers and the Patriots are arguably the two best organizations in football over the past 10 years. The Steelers have allowed Santana Moss, RandelEl, Porter, and Foote to walk. The Patriots have allowed Branch, Givens, McGinest, Malloy, Law, Bledsoe, Samuel to walk.

Either the best organizations value players differently than the fans and media, or they are nuts. Their record seems to belie the latter.

What seems to get lost in all this offseason chaos, is that perhaps the Broncos are no longer evaluating players the way the fans and media do.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Problem

If the organization is devaluing a player, they should make it clear to the player as early as possible, and not be equivocal Maybe that is what has happened here with Cutler and Marshall. If the plan all along was to dump them, a lot of drama could have been avoided.

It’s risky business in this case, and I hope things work out for the Broncos as a result. Here it has occurred without a down being played with off-season analysis.

Let the games begin.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is So little Evidence

To support any assertions with the little evidence we have. The problem I have with the “It could be handled better,” argument is that it is too universal. It sounds like an empty politicians campaign promises “We can do it better,” can be said about anything.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Jun 19, 2009 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Usually is Little Evidence

Most problems come with insufficient evidence to resolve them conclusively. People need to draw inferences from the information they have. In the current Bronco environment, people are polarizing towards one of two extremes and, now that breaks down primarily to pro- or anti-Mcdaniels. I am trying real hard to bridge the gap on this one and see a little of the other side.

Hopefully we will all get beyond this simplistic view of things, but for now, there is little evidence that either side of the controversy wants to break camp! Look at some of the hostility even in this thread and it is worse on the Bronco Country board.

Please, let the games begin!

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Jun 19, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

They also seem to have a knack for replacing those guys with better talent, SWG

With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg

by KaptainKirk on Jun 19, 2009 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's Xanders' job to handle contracts

our head coach isn’t the GM anymore, remember

by lolcopter on Jun 19, 2009 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps but its a very simplistic view...

cutler – the ONLY bright spot? hmmm what about Clady, Harris, Hillis, Royal, etc
Dawkins the only major defensive acquisition? What about Hill, Goodman, Fields. They may not be Haynesworth-esque, but they are all quality starting caliber players. I understand when a fan has this perspective because these signings haven’t received the focus of the MSM, but part of being a professional is getting your facts straight.

And to attribute everything to arrogance on McD is character assassination.

There are many, many reasons why fans and experts alike may second guess McD’s moves this off season. But if someone wants to profess to be a professional journalist, then they owe it to their readers to go beyond recycling the same tired superficial story lines and provide something with substance.

Whether you agree or disagree with McD, the article was superficial, recycled horse manure.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The biggest problem with any argument at this point is that there are NO results .. Zippo .. Nothing.

Let’s play the damn season, and see what the record is at the end – that’s all that matters.

It’s the same with the clowns on the NFL network talking about how bad the organization is now that Shanny’s gone.. conveniently forgetting that in the “great” years post-elway we didn’t win more than 1 playoff game. Meanwhile I remember the turmoil with Coughlin in New York at the same time — and go figure they went on to win the Super Bowl shortly after.

by hallandnash on Jun 19, 2009 8:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Name-Calling Response

It was an articulate article and responding to it with name-calling does not advance the dialog. That’s the problem with what has happened in Bronco Nation in 2009, its Crybaby v. McKool Aid, and continuing to perpetuate it with more name calling does little to advance rational dialog and responsible disagreement.

… and I blame Josh McDaniels for his role in a divisive transition rather than a responsible one like they have had in Baltimore and Atlanta. I think that he has been immature in some of what he has done. Its my opinion, and you may call it what you want.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Name calling?

where did I call anyone a name – I said the article recycled half truths – horse manure specifically. There are a lot of moves that I disagree with too. But this article does nothing to advance anyone’s understanding of the situation pro or con. Name one original idea or insight the author puts forward.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Attitude

I thought the author articulated a view about a series of actions in a cohesive manner and made his point with examples. You may disagree with his viewpoint, but to call writing manure really does not promote communication. The polarity in this dispute among Bronco fans is horrid and we can disagree without being disagreeable. I am working real hard to not inflame controversy, but I do want to articulate my viewpoint, and I have.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I respect your opinion

and probably am closer to it that you think. But I don’t think it was an intelligent article. He got many facts wrong, makes a great number of unsupported speculations, and provided nothing new to the discussion.

I have a similar problem with many of the pro-Broncos pieces but there are far fewer of them.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also respect yours

Hey, this has been a long week and I lost a good friend, about 6 years younger than me. I may be just caught up in the emotion of things. I hate it when Bronco stuff becomes the fodder of the national press. I want a nice, solid, hard-working team, just like you do. I also want the franchise to fly under the radar, I think a group does best when it is out of the limelight.

I really do want to see success from this current crew. I really want to like Josh McDaniels. I have liked every coach Denver has ever had. In some ways, McDaniels reminds me of John Ralston, who was one of my favorite coaches, but Ralston made some bad mistakes at the start which may have doomed him. On the other hand, one of Ralston’s drafts looks a lot like the one McDaniels just had.

Let the games begin.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am really sorry for your loss...

that sucks big time. Hang in there. Sometimes we need to remember that football is just a game. There are other, much more important things out there.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

How BB????

I totally disagree with you…I see now arrogance, or my way t the highway.
if you dont like McDaniels, I get it……but I dont get what you are seeing that a lot of the rest of us aren’t.
I see a very professional, hands on, enthusiastic coach that expects the players to be professional and accountable….AND AMEN TO THAT!
Better than the holiday camp for pampered players that Shanahan was running.
And explain why he has to mature??? I wish Shanny had half his balls in the past 5 years to expect the players to be professional on and off the field.
From a fellow coach, he has all the respect in the world from me.
I AM STOKED TO SEE THAT THE INMATES ARE NOT RUNNING THE ASYLUM ANY MORE IN DENVER!

by boydy2669 on Jun 19, 2009 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your Premise

I don’t see the way Shanahan ran things as being an asylum or a holiday camp. He had a lot of high character players on his team and got a lot of production from many of them. Sure, he made mistakes and McDaniels has and will continue to do so as well.

Perhaps Shanahan did burn out a little, I will give you that. Remember when Shanahan dumped Portis when he made himself the team and got us Champ Bailey and a draft pick (Tatum Bell) in return? I think most coaches get tired of players who put themselves above the team, not just our new coach.

I don’t think McDaniels behaved in a mature manner during much of the Cutler controversy, (Neither did Cutler). I never saw McDaniels take personal responsibility for his mistakes in that dispute. A leader accepts blame and moves on… I did not see much of that from McDaniels, while I have seen leadership from Bowlen.

You will certainly disagree, but I thought McDaniels was pretty impetuous in the draft. Maybe A. Smith will be the second coming of Daryl Grant, and if so, I will eat my words, but I thought McDaniels got caught up in the second round of the draft of reaching for players he wanted.

Hey, I hope I am wrong. I just trust my instincts based on the evidence I have seen and I don’t think that we had to have all the turmoil in which I think McDaniels has played a contributory role.

As I have said, i hope I am wrong and this is a championship season and we beat the Bears in the Super Bowl. Crow might make for an interesting entree.

Let the games begin!

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks BB...nice post....thanks for bringing good thoughts to the table...

We may not agree on everything but I appreciate the even handed way you bring it.
Peace man!

by boydy2669 on Jun 19, 2009 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few comments...

as far as the McJayGate crap – I think McD (& X) exposed his lack of experience. A more experienced coach might have anticipated that teams would come calling about his QB and planned out their response in advance. They might also have considered how to present it to the player. At the same time, there is considerable evidence that cutler/cook were less than honest and straightforward throughout the fiasco.

I’m not completely thrilled with the draft, but all the evidence indicates that McD was only one party in our draft evaluation and selection. Doesn’t it seem less than genuine that the MSM piles on him so much?

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

What is annoying about many people in the press is that they are often lemmings. Say what you may about the Denver Post, I see clear differences of opinion among their staff and it helps me make up my mind about things.

Cutler should have been more responsive to Bowlen, and to the fans of Denver, when things went South for him with McDaniels. That trade may be a win for both teams.

so, yes, I am quite sure that if we both sat down with a cold Coors (my grandfather was a brewmaster there) or a draft root beer, that we would be seeing eye-to-eye in short order.

I like the dialog here and I think it make me a better and more involved fan.

Thanks.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I used to go to "fluids lab"

at the brewery every Friday when I was in college.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lol, Boydy you kill me!

Thanks NYC

With the 12th pick, the Broncos select Knowshon Moreno - Roger Goodell
That'll move the chains - Andy Samberg

by KaptainKirk on Jun 19, 2009 6:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Thank Your For the Reports

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Jun 19, 2009 7:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Not much love for my beloved Mizzou Tigers LOL

Oh well…. ;)

Thanks for the updates!

A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Jun 19, 2009 8:17 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

The Concord Monitor? New Hampshire?

It took some serious due dily to dig that one up. I’m impressed.

by McGeorge on Jun 19, 2009 8:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

SORRY MAN!

I haven’t been on here showing you my appreciation for the daily feeds that you give us! I can’t start my day without “the Trax”, and I am amazed at how quickly you are able to put it all together every day!

You are much appreciated by us all my friend!

It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.

by metalman5050 on Jun 19, 2009 9:18 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Well done NYC, as always thank you

Brandon, you were on the couch during the first game last year.

"Talking tough is easy when it's other people's evil and you're judging what they do or don't believe. It seems to me you'd have to have a hole you're own to point a finger at somebody else's sheet" -- Mike Cooley

by ButteBronco on Jun 19, 2009 10:08 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps the most interesting point of the morning came from Lloyd

The one man who has been on the field with Orton and knows exactly what he’s talking about says this:

"I think what the receivers here are going to like is he throws a very catchable ball," he said. "I think sometimes when receivers say quarterbacks throw catchable balls, people are like, ‘Aren’t all the balls catchable?’ It’s just Kyle has the right amount of touch — he can throw a fastball, he can throw a touch ball, he throws an awesome deep ball — so the receivers here are really going to enjoy playing with him."

So, contrary to the folks who claim that – contrary to exactly what TedB, myself and several others saw while breaking down the available game film – Orton throws a wounded duck of a pass that can’t possibly fly over 15 yards, Lloyd points out that he throws a very catchable ball, varies it to the situation and throws an ‘awesome deep ball’. Hmmm. Well, so much for that theory….

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jun 19, 2009 10:41 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

he doesn’t throw well over 15 yards*

*off an injured ankle with a terrible o-line

by lolcopter on Jun 19, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Catchable ball...

this is a topic that doesn’t get much discussion. It’s very easy to be impressed with how hard some QBs throw the ball, but a hard pass is not always an good pass. Also, a lot of announcers give the impression that the issue is how hard the ball is to catch. The real issue is how hard or easy it is for the receiver to track the ball in flight.

If a “fastball” is thrown right at the receiver it’s easy to judge. You just look the ball right into your gut. If it’s throw to the side or overhead though, it becomes harder to judge. With a flat trajectory the receiver has a harder time gauging when when to extend for the ball. Sometimes it looks like the receiver couldn’t hold onto the ball because it was thrown too hard but more often it’s because the receiver misjudged when to extend.

The same is true of routes like posts and deep crosses where the receiver is angling toward the ball. A fastball is difficult for the receiver to time so that he can catch the ball in stride. Conversely a pass with more arc is much easier for a receiver to judge and adjust his route for.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dead on

Royal, in one interview, made a passing comment regarding the hand/finger injuries that receivers had last year from the ball being thrown especially hard. Power can be good, certainly, but it also has drawbacks, especially if it’s not controlled properly for the specific throw. Thanks for pointhing that out, SWG

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jun 19, 2009 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol yourself, 'copter ;-)

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jun 19, 2009 11:03 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Hard Thrown Balls

If we are going to go down the road of Cutler throwing the ball too hard, we are going to have to include John Elway in that conversation. The Three Amigos had plenty of tales to tell about how hard thrown Elway’s passes were and how their hands had to toughen up to deal with it!

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 1:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

It's not meant as a knock on our former QB

more a point that there are pluses and minuses to hard thrown balls. The media sometimes fawns over the hard thrown pass but neglect to point out it’s downsides. It’s similar to over-stressing pure speed in a runner without discussing his ability to read the hole and adjust.

There’s more to being a good runningback than 40 times; there’s more to being a good QB than velocity on the pass.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jun 19, 2009 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I just couldn’t resist the Elway memory. Lots of things reappear if you stay around long enough.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 19, 2009 1:54 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't see it as a knock

Elway has commented that in his later career he began to understand when to take a little off the ball, and it helped his game. Getting a decent O line and a running game were the two other pieces (on offense) that fell into place

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jun 19, 2009 4:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs