So they spin it against the trade just as most here spin it FOR…
I’m ready to see it play out!
Go Broncos, Good Morning!

Appreciate you watching The Wisdom of Solomon… so I don’t have to! : )

Remember, Solomon Wastecots only has a half a brain.
As Schein says so often; “We are sharing a brain on this one.”
Unfortunately, they are sharing the brain of a prehistoric dinosaur!

I also noticed that during the Cutler/Orton comparison, Jay was on the move due to designed rollouts, while Kyle was escaping a quickly-collapsed pocket.

I wonder why he didn’t show one of the many plays where Cutler locked in on Marshall, who couldn’t break out into space due to his injury, and threw an interception into triple coverage.

wow, can you say “hero worship?” In a 9 minute video, Wilcots managed to say Jay Cutler’s name 19 times. He also claimed 8 times that the player’s morale has taken a hit; be nice if he bothered to listen to any of the post practice player interviews.

Gotta love his background “expertise:” NFL CB, 92 games for 3 teams, 1 sack, 2 INTs and 3 fumbles recovered.

We need to stop trying (and failing) to compare Orton favorably to Jay Cutler. There is no comparison as Cutler is a vastly superior QB. Fortunately, Denver also received TWO 1st round picks and a #3rd rounder in that trade (good value for Denver IMO).

It’s sounds clever to say that Orton was the key to that deal, but it’s a lie. The key to that deal was the TWO 1st round picks, which Denver demanded from everyone.

A lot of sore Bronco fans want to question if Jay is a franchise QB or not, but just about everyone outside of Denver knows Jay is a franchise QB and one of the best two or three young QBs in the NFL. I’ve not read/heard/seen one person express their belief that Orton is anything more than an average NFL QB. Throw in TWO 1st round picks and now we’re talking.

I second the (E)motion of broncosmontana on the Wilcots video. After all, it IS Monday, no sense getting the blood a boil this early in the week. Bummer of a wet weekend for you, but glad your back.

He’s worthless man! Who cares, the MSM needs something to keep them busy until Preseason. It’s cool.

especially for suffering through Wilcots so we don’t have to.
But for hard-core masochists, here’s more Wilcots:

http://chat.nfl.com/front/archived_chat/301

Sorry I missed this chat the other day — I too could have had my Broncos question either lead to more McDaniels bashing or get ignored.

Dear Solomon,
We get it, already.

Signed,
Broncos Fans

… I think you would have a franchise QB. Take Cutler’s physical skills (arm strength, accuracy, pocket movement) and add to it Orton’s pre-snap reads, checkdowns, and cool underpressure, a dash of Cutler’s broken play recovery and pinch of Orton’s knack for knowing when to throw it into the bleachers, and fellas, we got ourselves a QB.

But all we have are Cutler and Orton. The question becomes “Which of these two will more likely develop all of the needed traits for a franchise QB?” And that is assuming you want a franchise QB, which is a whole different discussion. (BTW, I vote no on the desirability of a franchise QB. I want a QB position that is set up so that if my #1 goes down, #2 can step in. If you build your team around Cutler’s skills, and he goes down, no one on the planet can step in and do that job. )

when he referred to the 6-4 Orton as “small.” Seriously dude, that’s one of the easiest things to know about a QB. It’s a measurable, as they say.

Wilcots is barely above “Schein” level….

Where I analyze Solomon Wilcots’s analysis? I could get it up maybe by tomorrow if I figure out how to use YouTube.

Why, oh why does the Network have to send Solomon Wilcots up to analyze the Broncos for nine minutes? More shouting about Josh McDaniels and morale. Wilcots shows film of Cutler and Orton throwing on the run. Every Orton throw is rolling to his left, while Cutler’s throws are mostly rolling right. Look, Wilcots – we know Cutler has the stronger arm, but that’s obnoxious. He even goes on to say that McDaniels’ arm is weaker than all of the Patriots’ guys, including Matt Cassel. Wow, that was a painful watch.

Thanks nyc for sparing me nine minutes of my life that would’ve been completely wasted. I appreciate you laying out your opinions along with the links, so I can get the jist without actually having to click on the link. The verdict??? More MSM hate on the Cutler situation…even though it’s kind of been over for a little bit. I’ve already seen that. Now I can use those nine minutes to read some MHR! haha

Tell me what’s wrong with this general picture? Aside from the fact that Wilcots looks like he’s had tee many martooni;s.

Talk about cherry picking your examples to prove your point. Both Orton and Cutler had a bucket full of great plays and a bucket full of not so great plays from this past season. It’s kind of humorous that they found good plays demonstrating Cutler’s great decision making (one of his weaknesses IMO). They pointed out that Orton made bad decisions by throwing into double coverage and then showed Cutler throwing into double coverage as an example of a good decision. Wilcots even acknowledged that the WR had to come back to the ball and make a great play for it to be a completion. Oh well!!!

I know – some folks love the idea that one is better than the other. That’s fine, but difficult to quantify. I agree with SWG that if you just look at certain, common traits, Cutler is much better. In terms of raw material, he’s got all the talent in the world and I honestly hope that at some point he learns how to use it better. He’ll be tremendous if he does.

But decision making is probably the most important aspect of the position. It leads to production – points, ratings in the red zone, two minute drill outcomes, TD/INT ratios (especially in high pressure situations). My own feeling is that arm strength and foot speed are only great things if the player makes great decisions. Otherwise, though, they are not so helpful.

That’s why I tend to look at production – not yards, which are meaningless in any win based correlation, but production, which is the outcome of the decisions on the field. The difficult reality is that based on production, Cutler isn’t a better QB. It’s not a talent contest – it’s a football game. That’s why QBs are so often categorized on points and wins. You then have to consider the additional talent that we acquired as a few have noted. Based on all factors – this was a very favorable deal.

I apologize in advance for not knowing, but what does MSM mean?

A point was made earlier that

“Denver would have scored substantially more points in 2008 if their defense…”

Using that logic, Orton would have scored a TON more points if he hadn’t been injured.

Example: Pre-injury, games 3-7 in 2008, Orton AVERAGED 274 yards passing and 2 passing TD’s per game (against Tampa (before they disintegrated), Philly, @ Detroit, @ Atlanta, Minnesota – that’s three plus defenses and a decent one away). Then he was injured and wasn’t the same for the rest of the year.

My point is that if Jay Cutler gets a complete pass on his shortcomings because of the Broncos D, then Orton should get a complete pass due to his ankle injury, which limits pocket mobility and pushing off for the longer throws. Add in that Cutler had one of the best Offensive Lines in the game and Orton… uh… didn’t, and you have more of a case for how many more points Orton ""would have scored." I think the term might be… (drum roll please) “substantially.”

Making excuses for “franchise quarterback” Cutler while not giving Orton any cover regarding his ankle injury and leaky O-Line (and in fact, using that against him by not bringing those items into the discussion of stats and points) is disingenuous, at best, and reeks as bad as Wilcots slanting the highlights in Cutler’s favor.

One of my older brothers is a die-hard Bears fan (has lived in Chicago for decades) and was truly disappointed in seeing Orton go, going so far as to compare Cutler to Grossman (“another big-armed QB who makes poor decisions with the ball”). While that assessment may be a bit harsh, it’s at least an honest look at the faults Cutler brings to the QB table.

I was quoting my brother, who is a die-hard Bears fan and lives in Chicago. That was his assessment at the time of the trade. Bears’ fans don’t follow Cutler closely (until this year) and don’t know all his skills, but quite a few of them were behind Orton and saw Cutler’s poor decision making in the red zone as a problem.

I brought the quote into the conversation because, it seems, Cutler will get a free pass on his shortcomings (from McD bashers and Cutler fans) due to the Broncos D, while Orton gets no free pass even though he was injured and his O-Line was below average.

Denver would have scored substantially more points in 2008 if their defense had EVER bothered to create a turnover or the special teams had EVER outperformed their counterparts

No question, and that’s a point that I think that everyone on the site agrees with. A lousy turnover ratio,lousy turnover totals, poor special teams position, weak defensive and ST scoring – all of those are important and we were odious in all categories. That lost us games, no doubt.

The Broncos might have scored more and won more with better performance in the categories that I’ve listed – certainly would, if those numbers were high enough. Just bear in mind that the red zone performance of the offense is a separate issue from that. It IS fair to say that we might have won more and certainly would score more if ST and D would have performed better, and again – everyone seems to agree on that.

Still – that having been said, please look carefully at the red zone numbers. This is where decision-making is a stark reality with a measurable performance outcome – points. But when you separate out the red zone and two minute performance of the quarterbacks, you find that Orton simply did a great deal more with less. Better scoring, better completion rates, less INTs, despite a LOT more sacks from a very porous line (I watched the games, many several times) and better QB rating in those situations.

That’s why it’s not unrealistic or inappropriate for many fans, obviously including myself, to consider that the performance of Orton was substantially, provably, statistically better in those situation that needed to result in scoring. Total gross yardage doesn’t win games. Scoring does. INTs in the red zone lose them. So does poor performances on 2 minute drills. I’ve listed these stats before, but if anyone would like I can do so again because in my opinion, the issue here rests on them. Simply put, the stats in this case do not lie. Decision-making that directly leads to scoring points was substantially superior from Orton than from Cutler as of 2008.

Cutler’s physical gifts, by the way, are better than all but a few QBs. Frankly, that’s one of the things that was unfortunate about his unwillingness to play for McDaniels. Should he have been willing to properly learn the position, accept coaching, work very hard and establish good habits and decision-making, he’d be one of the best and that would have benefited both him and the Broncos. Since he refused and demanded a trade, we are just looking at the stats and what they tell us. No reason not to, you know? And yes, I did criticize Cutler when he was here for his decision-making. It was always a problem.

Eddie Royal linked to the previous MHR piece, Beyond Brandon Marshall, via his Facebook page (or whoever does that page for him did, anyway) So I just wanted to welcome newbies who came here from that article, and also wave to Eddie Royal. ;-)

1. He said to forget about the win/loss record when comparing Orton and Cutler…kinda funny since QB is the only position with the record stat attached to them.

2. He said Orton wasn’t a fit for “the system” he is a shorter QB…he is 6 freakin 4 (an inch taller than Cutler incidentally)

C’mon dude…this is your job, put some effort into it.

    I’ve been banned from denverbroncos.com, had my wife and daughter threated with physical harm from Bronco fans (seven different occassions), and have had an assortment of fatal diseases wished upon me, by Bronco fans.
   
   I was a fan of this team for 40 years and grew up in Denver. It’s the Denver fans that have driven me away from this team.
   
    Criminal behavior is criminal behavior, regardless of the excuse. I can NEVER support this team ever again…..the fans are just that bad.
  
    Leaves a crappy taste in my mouth.
  
   On the other hand, Bear fans have been nothing but class acts. My articles over there are front page and ‘stickied’. Over 7000 views in only one week on my first piece over there.
  
   I hear “change, change change!!!” was the byword in Denver last fall.
  
   I hear you……….I hear you. I changed and can finally smile about my NFL team and enjoy similar fans without having to worry about a drunk guy in a cyberhorse outfit threatening my wife.
  
   Perhaps a few blogs on social behavior would be in order here?
   
    Life is good.

THE REPORTS, arn’t the same, when you R gone!

It is what it is.

People who do not demand accountability for criminal behavior cannot be trusted in anything.
  
    Lying is criminal behavior.

Character determines my loyalty. Not arrogance and stupidity. Half of the Bronco fanbase feels just like I do.
  
   Whether you like that, ….or not.

Just a comment. These things should not happen, but they do. You can see images of people getting killed at Pompeii after gladiator fights at their venue. European, especially English, soccer matches are scary. Now I’m all for teasing and taunting, but never physical threats or assaults.

     Endzone…..so very true. But let us, the level headed ‘fans’, at least remind ourselves of the massive difference between shedding your blood and perhaps your own life for your God, your family, your friends, or your nation………….or shedding blood over a freaking sports team and a logo.
  
    Being a decorated US Navy veteran, I’d like to think that I know that difference.
  
   Are logo’s worth death threats?
   
   In some cities it would seem so.
  
   Maybe I’m just not with the 21st century NFL program though….that’s quite possible.
  
   The times they did’a change. Drastically.