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Around SBN: My First Fight: Diego Sanchez

Larry Mayer moronically asserts that "Cutler seemingly proved Angelo’s theory that the quarterback-makes-the-receiver the past few seasons with the Broncos" by citing the emergence of BM and Royal during his tenure. Obviously, in his logically challenged mind, any receiver who does well does so due to Cutler, not due to any attributes he might possess. "Cutler isn’t the only example of a great quarterback making his receivers into elite players." Article has no comments section. If it had he'd have gotten an earful from me.

over 2 years ago Closeup2_tiny spock 15 comments 1 recs  | 

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good luck turning hester into a #1 receiver

(not really)

by lolcopter on Jun 23, 2009 9:07 AM MDT reply actions  

Good luck?

What are you talking about! It’s Jay Cutler we’re discussing here. He can turn anyone into a number one receiver. Didn’t you read the theory! Man, the Bears are gonna have a big year through the air. Oh my.
(All joking of course)
Okay now that the stupid “theory” garbage is out of the way…my sentiments exactly. Good luck actually “turning” him into a number one receiver (as in…let’s see you do it…not actually good luck :)).

What a dope this guy is. Voicing your opinion in this manner pretty much indicates that the receivers mean nothing. So you’re saying a cusp college player who can’t make it in the NFL will instantly become a receiving threat if a guy like Cutler’s throwing him the ball? Garbage. I’d like to see BMarsh get back on the field for the Broncos and team up with Royal and the gang (without Cutler) to prove this guy wrong.

The good thing for us Broncos fans? We know this article is a load of crap. I honestly can’t see too many non Broncos fans out there soaking this stuff up, but if there’s anyone out there I can’t see why they would think a QB “makes” a receiver. Do quality quarterbacks make receivers “better?” Yes, they can (in terms of statistics), but the receivers still have to get there to catch the ball, they still have to run the right routes, and they still have to have the ability to get open along with an innumerable number of other attributes. Receivers can make things easier on the quarterback too.

Thanks for the find spock. It’s hard to believe the utter stupidity that’s out there. Geez…think before you post something that basically the entire nation can read.

I’m almost glad for him that this article lacked a comments section…Broncos’ fans would’ve TORN this “theory” apart.

by phantom818 on Jun 23, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wow. Just wow.

I guess it was Jay’s rocket arm that allowed Marshall to break all those tackles and get yards after the catch like nobody’s ever seen before.

I agree that great quarterbacks can make marginal receivers better (look at Tom Brady and the likes of Deion Branch). Talented receivers make good quarterbacks great, though.

"Horton is win."
--Horvil Tiki

by wtnelson on Jun 23, 2009 12:00 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks guys

It was the notion that Cutler made Royal an elite receiver that really ticked me off. You could almost make the case that Cutler made Marshall better by rocketing the ball in before the defender(s) could react, if you ignored the fact that his inability to look off the safety or read the zone is why it was necessary in the first place. But Eddie’s stock in trade is his ability to get open, and Cutler had nothing to do with that. He didn’t run his routes for him. As the 93-yard TD catch shows it was Royal who made Cutler look good (despite a horrible throw), not vice versa.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Jun 23, 2009 2:38 PM MDT reply actions  

Class-A Moron.

How about this…Eddie Royal and BMarsh helped turn Cutler into a star QB. :P Along with Clady and Harris and those guys up front. Douche!

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Jun 23, 2009 3:05 PM MDT reply actions  

nice excuse to look at the history

It’s almost like bait, since his logic is so poor.

It was a nice academic exercise to look up what kind of help Elway had (starting in 82 and only listing WRs; no TEs).

1982: #2(50) Orlando McDaniel, #4(106) Dan Plater
1983: #3(106) Clinton Sampson
1984: #12(306) Murray Jarman: TRADES: Dave Logan for a 4th; Butch Davis for a 3rd:
…………Supplemental pick: #2(46) Rick Massie
1985: #2a(31) Vance Johnson, #11(306) Gary Rolle
1986: #6b(161) Mark Jackson, #9(244) Joe Thomas
1987: #1(27) Ricky Nattiel
1988: NO WRs
1989: #6(152) Anthony Stafford, #12(320) John Jarvis — FAs: Michael Young
1990: #7(192) Shannon Sharpe (I think he was later moved to TE)
………….FAs: Jason Johnson
1991: #4(89) Derek Russell, #10(253) Curtis Mayfield
1992: #7c(193) Jon Bostic, #11(305) Cedric Tillman
1993: #6(154) Melvin Bonner, #7b(182) Tony Kimbrough, #8(210) Brian Stablein
1994: NO WRs; TRADE: Mike Pritchard: FAs: Jeff Campbell, Anthony Miller
1995: #7b(222) Byron Chamberlain; FAs: Ed McCaffrey
1996: #5 (145) Patrick Jeffers; TRADE: Todd Kinchen: FAs: Mike Sherrard
1997: NO WRs; FAs: Flipper Anderson, Willie Green
1998: #1(30) Marcus Nash

I didn’t try to include TEs and RBs, and there are lot of other players that I’ve left out (Rick Upchurch, etc.) I’ve also omitted the UDFAs, which would include players such as Steve Watson and Rod Smith, but there’s quite a few WRs here that didn’t become great as a result of playing with a HOF QB.

My problem with Larry Mayer’s analysis started with his citing of the “One Amigo” — weren’t there Three?

BTW — Terrell Davis caught a surprising amount of passes, which isn’t how I remember him.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Jun 23, 2009 10:39 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Wow...

So no one here believes that it’s the QB that makes the reciever? Maybe you should go ask Wes Welker who was a nobody in Miami or go ask Randy Moss how it feels to have an actual QB revive his career. Ask Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne how it feels or felt to have Manning behind center.

Brandon Marshall was a 4th round pick. Royal was a mid second round pick and Scheffler was a second roun pick as well. Is it so far fetched to believe that the reason these guys were so good is because of the guy throwing them the ball? Could it really be that much of a coincidence? Have you all even bothered to look at Marshall and Scheffler stats before Cutler started playing?

by Dils on Jun 24, 2009 8:45 AM MDT reply actions  

No doubt that football is a collaborative effort,

and so no players achievements can be called their’s alone. But the opposite is true as well, no team achievement can be handed to a single player. Not by stats alone at least. Michael Vick’s early carrier being one of the exceptions that prove the rule.

The only evidence I see for the idea that Cutler was the reason Royal, Marshall, and Scheffler had success is that they played together on the same team when they were having success. That could be coincidental just as easily as it could be the Cutler magic. Most likely it is a combination of the two. But to assume that it was all Cutler is an insult to the players who were running routes like veterans as rookies (Royal eating MeAngelo’s lunch), boxing out and running over entire secondaries (Marshall), or flat out outrunning LB’s (Schef). Clearly these players weren’t simply picking their noses on the field before Cutler came into their lives. They weren’t setting NFL reception records either, but really their careers started at the same time as Cutlers, or after, so that should not be considered evidence.

Having watched Cutler toss cannonballs at Marshall when Marshall is healthy, and when he is not (the lingering hip injury last year), I would say that you could just as easily make the point (as Spock pointed out in the above comments) that Marshall is what allowed Cutler’s game to work at all once teams started using the zone to stop Jay. Without the quick bullet to Marshall, how good is a QB who does not look off coverage or check down?

All that being said, Cutler has a tremendous talent, and will most likely make Hester look like he actually is a wideout, but I don’t expect him to become Randy Moss either. But Mr. Cutler has plenty of room for growth before we start talking about him making his receiver’s into elites.

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Jun 24, 2009 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

They were all three from the same draft class

so for all practical purposes Marshall and Scheffler didn’t have any pre-Cutler stats. I guess Cutler was solely responsible for their improvement from their rookie to their second year, and for Scheffler’s foot improving to where he could play. I feel pretty sure Cutler wasn’t responsible for Royal getting open game after game, although he was responsible for missing on a number of long passes when he was wide open.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Jun 24, 2009 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Correct me if Im mistaken...

Wasn’t there a span of time in which those guys played with Jake Plummer, before Cutler was named the starter? Also Why wouldn’t a QB that can throw on the run and keep plays alive have something to do with a reciever’s ability to get open? Im not saying these guys didn’t have the skill level to get open, but there is something to be said for a QB creating space and making tough throws to recievers in a position to catch the ball.

by Dils on Jun 25, 2009 7:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

The first 11 games of their friggin careers

when they probably weren’t getting much playing time in addition to just learning the ropes, is hardly a fair comparison. And I might be mistaken, but I think Scheffler was either hurt or didn’t play much for other reasons before Cutler was inserted. Both his and Marshall’s numbers jumped after that, but that was in comparison to Plummer, who was slumping badly. To say that Cutler made them stars is both presumptuous and underplays the skills both Scheffler and Marshall displayed that made them good targets. By your logic anyone who followed Plummer and wasn’t totally ineffective would have “made” Marshall and Scheffler into stars. Now if they’d been playing several years with modest numbers and then Cutler came along and their production took a big jump — that would have been a different matter, but that’s precisely the case that the Chicago sportsmoronwriter didn’t make.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Jun 25, 2009 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nope

Plummer was replaced in Nov 06 by Cutler. None of the mentioned receivers had any significant playing time until after Cutler became the starter.

Cutler rarely had to “play on the run” in the sense that he was being chased out of the pocket. He did have a lot of designed roll-outs.

Like others, I believe it is a collaborative effort and no single player or coach can take credit for the development of another. To say anything else libels the efforts and abilities of the receivers.

PS: I really liked Colinski’s post above regarding Elway’s receivers.

by Endzone on Jun 25, 2009 10:46 AM MDT reply actions  

interesting

so… are you saying that this relative band of misfits for receivers made elway a hof qb? the o-line? or did the qb have success in spite of it all. i seem to recall elway’s signature 3rd-down play as scrambling, while his receivers came back to the ball. most qb’s couldn’t do that, but most receivers could. yes, it is a little of both, but i’ll take the best qb in the game over the best wr in the game, any day.

as far as b-marsh/cutler, i also recall brandon having difficulty getting open as a #1 receiver last season. there were many posts on this site itself telling b-marsh to get open before he opens his mouth(the wr coach incident, and such). royal and scheff are better at getting open, as is stokely. but most completions were fired in there very tight, something to keep an eye on this season. hopefully this offense gives ko a little more space to work with, and he is better at his progressions than jay was last season.

taste my blintzkrieg!
2009-year of the secondary?

by davecheffy on Jun 25, 2009 3:29 PM MDT reply actions  

When you're the number ONE receiver

it’s hard to get open. You’re almost always double covered. Aside from that, your point is easily countered by the fact that Cutler was ALWAYS looking to get the ball to Marshall. Defenses knew that after about week 3. So yeah, he had a hard time getting open.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jun 26, 2009 3:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

Going through his progressions better

might give Orton. that space, and throwing to open rather than covered receivers will save him from having to be perfect pass after pass. The team that has to work harder to move the ball and score tends to lose. Can’t wait to see how well this offense works.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Jun 26, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

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