Horse Tracks 6/24/09 - BMarsh's best bud comes to his defense

CBS - 'He isn't a bad guy' -- best friend still backs Broncos' Marshall
Pete Prisco talks with BMarsh's best friend, Jags WR Mike Walker. Walker comes to Marshall's defense, saying he would let Brandon date his sister. He also says Marshall's unhappiness not only stems from monetary issues and his hip injury, but also from the trade of Jay Cutler. Obviously Walker is biased, but it is nice to hear BMarsh's side of the story, even if it's from somebody else.
DP - Broncos' Buckhalter happy to be shareholder
Correll Buckhalter is happy both to be a Bronco and to still be playing despite several major injuries earlier in his career. Therefore, he is content being part of a potential rotation rather than being a workhorse back. Josh McDaniels calls CB the Broncos' fastest running back and praises his multidimensional skills.
LTC - Former Niwot, CU star McChesney stoked to have opportunity with Broncos
Interior lineman Matt McChesney is thrilled to be with the Broncos, after rooting them on from the South Stands while growing up. McChesney calls signing with Denver "a no-brainer," a year after the tragic death of his younger brother.
NFP - Diner morning news: Getting back to basics
Lombardi says the Broncos coaching staff needs to be selective in how they allocate practice time. He says the 2008 Dolphins should provide a blueprint for how to turn around the Denver defense, and quickly.
FOX - Summer two-a-days: NFC East, AFC West
Peter Schrager rehashes the Broncos offseason, strangely spending an entire paragraph on J.J. Arrington and another questioning the release of Boss Bailey. At least Schrager reminds folks that the '08 Broncos weren't exactly the strongest football squad around.
NFP - Bears should avoid Marshall
Matt Bowen can think of several reasons why BMarsh wouldn't be a fit for Chicago.
DDN - Jury still out on the Broncos’ rookie class
Daniel Williams goes over the Broncos' top draftees; get out your magnifying glasses...
RTD - Both sides guilty in Cutler spat - Paul Woody
Nice to see someone spread the blame around...
LSWA - Brooks walked the walk in career
Here is a terrific profile on one of the newest inductees to the Louisiana Sports HOF, former Broncos LB Michael Brooks. Michael Strahan calls Brooks the "toughest man (he's) ever been around."
PFW - Chiefs sign 'Mr. Irrelevant' PK Succop
KCS - Chiefs to retire Thomas’ No. 58 jersey on Dec. 6
KCS - Central Bancompany now 'Official Bank of the Chiefs'
Well, if any of you have accounts with Metcalf Bank, you can now get a Chefs credit card!!!! HAHAHAHAHA (PUKE).
NFL - Packers, WR Jennings still in talks about a contract extension
Interesting. The Pack's star fourth-year WR is entering the final year of his contract, is only scheduled to make $535,000 and has chosen to attend all voluntary OTAs despite hoping for a new contract. By the way, Jennings has 24 career touchdowns, 9 more than our guy. Oh, and Jennings was going to be the Broncos' choice (the pick was almost in) before Green Bay called and offered up Javon Walker. Could've had Jennings AND Marshall. Wow. Oops.
JS - Jennings, Packers agree on new deal
According to a source, Jennings already has a new contract which will make him the second-highest paid WR in the league per season. I know, Jennings and Marshall have very different situations; I just see a lot of irony here.
Y! - Cornerback Fernando Bryant to retire
NFL - Steelers sign franchise-tagged OT Starks to four-year contract
SI - Nick Collins, Green Bay Packers S, should shut up about contract - Peter King
One of PK's readers actually thinks the MSM has been too kind to the Broncos this offseason. I kid you not. King actually wants to let them play out the season before grilling them.
NFL - Jets coach Ryan acknowledges his toughest foe: dyslexia
FOX - Jets to wear corporate patch on practice jerseys
It's not just the Broncos...
NFP - Pros & cons of an 18-game season - Jack Bechta
NFL - Bills' playoff hopes ultimately will ride on rebuilt defensive line - Bucky Brooks
NFL - Dungy we know today was softened by the Steel Curtain - Jennifer Allen
NFL - Group that includes three Cowboys players signs heavy metal record deal
NFP - 2009 NFP scouting series: Oklahoma State - Wes Bunting
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112 comments
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Comments
Thanks NYC
Thanks NYC for the links. Nice read from NFP, especially from Lombardi about the defense and what to expect for the first part of the season.
by NYBronco on Jun 24, 2009 5:54 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks NYC.
The analysis by LJones on our running backs was special.
Great article by Lombardi though….he is becoming my favorite MSM writer.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 6:29 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Morning all
Thanks NYC
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
by KaptainKirk on Jun 24, 2009 7:11 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Except..
BMarsh is a bad guy. Hell of a football talent, but a long track record of off-field antics that suggest he can’t follow rules or laws.
by Hobnail_Boot on Jun 24, 2009 7:50 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Balance is Good
I enjoyed both the article on Cutler and on Michael Brooks. Some day I would like to see Josh McDaniels reflect honestly on his mistakes in handling the situation… that will be the day that I think he has gotten some maturity as a coach.
As for Brooks, I think he was a brilliant drafting risk by the Broncos and I wish that he had remained a Bronco for his whole playing career. I enjoyed watching him play.
Thanks for the effort, as always, nycbroncosfan.
by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 24, 2009 8:21 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Cutler is an angel and McDaniels is the devil. We get it. But lets put it to bed now!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 8:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I Write That?
The MHR report on the article indicated that it was nice that the blame was being spread around. When you read the article it is clear that Jay Cutler recognizes he made some mistakes in his handling of the situation. Cutler himself made quite clear that he was not an angel in that situation.
Boydy, can you point me to anywhere where Josh McDaniels has taken any responsibility for any of his actions that led to the trade? Or, has McDaniels anywhere been candid enough to admit either that he screwed up in his communications with the player or that he candidly did not want Cutler to be his QB and is now happy with Orton and others in Cutler’s place?
I want to like McDaniels, he is our coach and he is here. Cutler is gone. At some point next Fall, something will go wrong with the team, and it will be interesting to see whether McDaniels shows some ability to reflect, expresses some candor and takes responsibility for any errors or if he believes he is infallible.
That was the point I made, not that McDaniels is the devil. I hope McDaniels is a very good coach, maybe even that he is a very good person, I just think an ounce of humility and a touch of candor regarding his own limitations would show me some maturity on the part of McDaniels as coach.
… and I said some positive things about Michael Brooks, which you overlooked.
by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 24, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at you...more at the continuing discussion of it. You have your opinion....me, I would rather support the team , look forward and play it as it comes.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough
I agree with you, please…
Just let the games begin!!!
by Baltimore Bronco on Jun 24, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
100% agreed on that BB!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a very solid point.
Or, has McDaniels anywhere been candid enough to admit either that he screwed up in his communications with the player or that he candidly did not want Cutler to be his QB and is now happy with Orton and others in Cutler’s place?
Though I obviously tend to side with the Broncos on the Cutler fall out, they could’ve saved a lot of us a lot of time if anybody knew what the heck actually happened. The flip side is, I see some noble behavior on both sides by the restraint shown when it comes to airing out grievances in public. The double flip side, is that Cutler continues to allude to the things that people don’t and will never know about…so he isn’t exactly any more forthcoming than Josh McDaniels…unless it really comes down to just being insulted by being declared expendable…in which case I have absolutely no sympathy for Cutler at all.
My point, I guess, is that I don’t see this as just being about one side or the other because none of us know diddly squat about any of it…thanks in large part to both sides. All I see is that our extremely talented and promising QB acted in contrary to all the values instilled in me in my upbringing. He cracked under pressure, made it all about himself, skirted responsibilities and obligations, fibbed or fat out lied repeatedly, and acted in general more like a guy that if I randomly met him in public, I’d view him as an annoyance rather than as a guy I’d like share a cold one with.
The fact is, among the Kool Aid drinker, there is a huge element of us out here that believe that Cutler could be great; who wish that he could be great with the Broncos: but are more than glad that he is going to get to prove that somewhere else. For me its never been about replacing his talent— which is an incredibly tall order— but rather about doing away with his narcissistic mentality and potentially subversive presence. In other words, from a talent perspective, I see no real debate about who has the advantage between Cutler and Orton. The pro-Cutler folks are preaching to the chior with me on that one. Its about the person that Jay Cutler revealed and the heartfelt belief that he revealed some deep deep flaws that beg the question as to whether that talent will ever really translate to elevating his team.
I apologize for the rant, here. But darn it, being ready to move on is niether an attack on Cutler or some blind affection for Kyle Orton. The picture, to me, is far bigger than who looks like the more capable QB. Its about having a team I’m proud of; that I want to root for; and one that isn’t populated by guys I always feel compelled to defend. I loved the physical gifts of Jay Cutler as much as anybody. But I don’t like Jay Cutler the person much anymore. Let him go to the hall of fame with somebody else, even if that means I have to wait and extra year or two for my Broncos to find a way to make up for it.
Finally, maybe I’m being unfair to Jay Cutler. I just go by what I’ve seen from him. Maybe there is far more to the story. But Jay Cutler, like his former employer, isn’t letting me know anything that would justify his little tissy fit. As long as that’s true, I think I can say good riddance without also being a delusional idiot that doesn’t understand football.
I know…I should just let it go…
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 24, 2009 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, BB
I know you didn’t call anybody an idiot. My delusional idiot comment comes from the perplexed reactions of MSM pundits who act like Broncos fans have lost their very sanity for still believing in this team.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 24, 2009 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm one!
I think I can say good riddance without also being a delusional idiot that doesn’t understand football.
History is filled with “delusional idiots.” They were called that by people on the other side of the issue that didn’t want to acknowledge there may be more to the story than what they think.
i.e., Galileo, Newton, Edison, G.W. Carver, Lincoln, etc.
Don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying believing in the Broncos and seeing that McDaniels has a plan is ANYWHERE CLOSE to the above mentioned giants of history. Seriously… I’m not. That would be… er… delusional!
I’m just saying human nature likes to “group think” in such a way that anyone thinking outside the box gets hung with the “delusional idot” label on a regular basis.
If we Broncos believers are to be called “delusional idiots” then sign me up!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
Just click your heels together three times and say, "There's no player like Hillis... there's no player like Hillis."
by BroncTastic on Jun 24, 2009 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Great points.
I chalk Cutler up to TO…I respect both their talent and their game. I just think they are both a waste of time regarding attitude and culpability.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jun 24, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read somewhere the McDaniels was comfortable with all the controversy attaching itself to him, and that he wasn’t the type to discuss the organization’s business in public.
We’ve seen the same kind of answers from him with respect to the Marshall drama; only in this case, we realize up front that McDaniels doesn’t make contract decisions.
One day we may know what happened. But that McDaniels hasn’t taken any responsibility for Cutler’s leaving just may be because he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. And if all he did was listen to offers that he thought might improve the team, then he didn’t do anything wrong, as far as I’m concerned. Cutler has no say in personnel decisions, nor should he.
by JeffG on Jun 24, 2009 9:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
makes me nervous
Thanks for compiling this stuff…
Josh McDaniels quoted in the Denver Post,
He just might be, as a matter of fact, I think he is, our fastest back. He’s got a great burst and he’s got great long speed…
Great…not that top line speed is everything, but if a guy who’s already torn his ACL and has twice ruptured his patellar tendon is our fastest running back, we could be in for a long season.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 8:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
How did our “slow” running backs named Davis, Gary, Anderson and Droughns work out for us?
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Davis was "slow"
Do you?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a subjective term
But Davis was certainly not known for his speed. His ability to cut back quickly through the hole left a lot of defenders out of position, so he got a lot of long runs, but in a flat out foot race, he was only average. I think the main point is – as you said – top line speed is not everything. In fact I’d bet the best RBs in the league each year are typically not the fastest ones.
by ShawnDenver on Jun 24, 2009 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
His Combine 40
was around a 4.7 or a 4.8, which is exactly the point. Relative to other RBs, TD was very slow. However, you remember him being fast. So I don’t know why it’s such a big problem that Buckhalter may be the fastest RB.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
he had astounding burst
I remember him having incredible acceleration. He was at full impulse power when he hit the line of scrimmage. But I have plenty of memories of him being caught from behind 30 yards downfield.
History is littered with great running backs who weren’t burners. TD, Emmitt Smith, John Riggins…I think it’s safe to say, however, that Correll Buckhalter is no TD, no Emmitt Smith and no John Riggins.
I’m just sayin…
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just sayin' what?
Are you suggesting that because Buckhalter is the fastest back on the Broncos, the Broncos’ running game is in trouble? That you’re worried that Moreno isn’t going to be able to perform at a high level in the pros, his being slower than a guy who’s suffered a number of injuries? That Hillis isn’t the answer? Torain is a non-factor?
What is it that you’re just sayin’, is all I’m askin’…?
by JeffG on Jun 24, 2009 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow....
Way to bring down the enthusiasm AJF.
Heres a fact….Hillis is the same speed as TD, faster than Mike Anderson.
Buckhalter was/is faster than Westbrook.
I think we will be fine!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 8:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Buckhalter was/is faster than Westbrook
Brian Westbrook? You can’t be serious. All Westbrook does is outrun everybody. Oh, and catch, and make people miss, and break tackles…
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I am serious!
Correll Buckhalter ran a 4.5 in the 2000 draft.
Brian Westbrook ran a 4.57 in the 2002 draft.
Peace.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're funny, boydy
How many knee surgeries ago was that? I can’t remember…Let’s see, he clocked that in 2000…maybe it was 3…or was it 4 surgeries…I can’t remember.
Just to be clear, you’re saying that it doesn’t bother you that the 22 or 23 year-old running back we just drafted with the 12th pick isn’t the fastest running back on the team? That doesn’t bother you a little bit?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all how you chose to look at it
Perhaps that is speaking more of the speed Buckhalter still has rather than the lack of speed of Moreno. Just becuase he’s not the fastest RB on the squad doesn’t necessarily mean he’s slow. McD might also be trying to light a fire under the rookie with comments such as these. Moreno may well be the fastest of the bunch, regardless of this comment.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Jun 24, 2009 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does it matter?
A running back is many things and sometimes, that includes fast. However, lateral speed is probably more important than straight line speed and based on the system’s success with numerous backs, including TD in the past and Hillis last year (neither of whom are/were straight line burners) I have few concerns regarding Moreno, et. al.
It's "just" football
by Donkhead on Jun 24, 2009 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats exactly my point....our guys are fast enough...and I am not worried one bit.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it does not....not one bit....
You mentioned it yourself when you bagged on my post. just substitute Moreno’s name in for Westbrooks:
All Moreno dod in college was make players miss, break tackles and catch out of the backfield.
A-la-Westbrook….the same player YOU said ran away from players!
Cant have it both ways!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
key phrase: "in college"
Westbrook’s done it the NFL. Success in college doesn’t guarantee success in the NFL. You know that Boydy.
I said in my original comment top line speed wasn’t everything. But it bothers me that a guy who’s probably in his 30s and who has had multiple knee surgeries is labeled the fastest running back on the team. I find that discouraging.
You’re right about Davis…he didn’t have great speed, but his burst was fantastic. He hit the hole harder than anyone I remember, except for maybe Eric Dickerson. Until he hurt his knee. Olandis Gary had great burst. Until he hurt his knee.
Think about the statement: Josh McDaniels thinks that Correll Buckhalter, a journeyman running back who’s had at least three knee surgeries is the fastest running back on the team.
That’s discouraging to me.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it possible
that Knowshon has the same “type” of speed as TD?
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
very possible
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well not me...and you cant bag on Moreno cause hes only played college. Thats ludicrous and unfair.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it isn't
Every college player shares one thing in common: They’ve never played a down in the NFL.
That’s the nature of the entire draft game, trying to determine which players can translate their success in college to success in the NFL.
Prior to the draft and the subsequent OTAs, that’s all we have to go on. Now that OTAs have begun, we’re starting to get some concrete indications as to whether Knowshon’s skills will translate. I think the reports have been, on balance, positive, but scarce.
But now we get this indirect assessment of Knowshon’s speed. I’m just saying, it’s disappointing to me, yet somewhat validating.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Validating your already negative opinion
Sorry, but that’s meaningless to anyone but you
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 24, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1
You may not agree with it, but AJF has a valid opinion. I personally think it is too early to tell for sure, but I agree with him that the signs so far aren’t really encouraging.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jun 24, 2009 4:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which signs?
Serious question. Because so far all I’ve heard is other players praise his ability, which is what you’d expect.
by JeffG on Jun 24, 2009 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Sorry, but coming to a conclusion when you admittedly “don’t like the pick, not one bit” and “don’t know anything” about the player isn’t valid. It’s biased conjecture.
These “signs” you two are so concerned about are meaningless.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 25, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until NFL RB's
start lining up in shorts with one hand on the ground and running without a ball in the open field I will care more about how fast they are during a game than I will about their 40 time. And I always thought that the term “journeyman” referred to guys that have played for like 5 different teams.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
by TD4HOF on Jun 24, 2009 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, yeah
I don’t think Josh McDaniels has them running 40s like they do at the combine. I think his comment was based on observations made during OTAs. So, they probably were carrying the football when he made his assessments.
Regarding your comment about the word “journeyman,” I’ve heard it used in that context, but I think that’s a media corruption of the word, originating with color guys, like Randy Cross, who don’t understand its etymology. Historically, “journeyman” refers to a more tenured or skilled member of the union or trade guild. For example, someone who has completed an apprenticeship. Depending on how you view an “apprenticeship” in the NFL, one could argue that any non-rookie could be labeled a “journeyman,” But I guess this discussion is completely off-topic, irrelevant and beside the point.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So by your terming of journeyman
Peyton Manning would be a journeyman.
Tom Brady would be a journeyman.
LT would be a journeyman.
If that is the case, label Buckhalter a journeyman all you want.
by adamriggs on Jun 24, 2009 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's right
They’ve all played in the league for awhile, so yes. Are you really talking the etymology of words here? Geez…
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on Jerry
You’re going too far if you want to redefine “journeyman.” Just admit that it was an ill-placed moniker for Buckhalter.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
He is correct in context and meaning. Can you guys argue football instead of word meanings please?
:P
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jun 24, 2009 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
here here
I think it was HoosierTeacher who gently chided a poster for slamming someone’s grammer, diction or spelling. He said it was “rude” in the world of blogs. This is especially so if you’re wrong.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a Journeyman Steamfitter
I believe that term is accurate for Buckhalter and for someone like Andra Davis, or some of the other FA’s that we brought in. 2nd teamers or starters that aren’t considered “stars” if you will.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
by KaptainKirk on Jun 24, 2009 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Actually, journeyman is a fair descriptor for Buckhalter. Not sure why I went there. Sorry, Jerry & Co.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure you brought up the etymology of words.
I just wanted to show that, by your definition, a journeyman by name isn’t a horrible thing. Earlier you stated that because a journeyman RB is our fastest RB that is inherently bad. That just isn’t the case, by your own words.
That is all.
by adamriggs on Jun 24, 2009 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
look it up
It’s not MY definition, it’s THE definition. Don’t trust me, look it up. Former players who are now in the role of color analysts have bastardized this word.
And I didn’t bring up word etymology, TD4HOF did. He questioned my usage of the term, and I merely pointed out that, while wholly irrelevant to the topic, his understanding of the definition was football-centric and therefore limited.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Merriam-Webster
1 : a worker who has learned a trade and works for another person usually by the day
2 : an experienced reliable worker, athlete, or performer especially as distinguished from one who is brilliant or colorful
So the first definition finds someone who works by the day; in other words, a transient position. The second definition is someone described as “reliable” but not “brilliant.” Okay, seems to me the analysts are using the word just fine when they use it to describe players who skip around from team to team.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The crux
Honestly Jerry, I think it’s just a bit much that you’re so concerned by what McDaniels said. But really, you’re just trying to use it as evidence to support your dislike of the Moreno selection. That is something along the lines of ridiculous, especially when you’ve already acknowledged how many great running backs lacked top speed.
How did Tatum Bell’s speed pan out? It’s the speed backs who never last, and the tougher ones who end up in the HOF.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall Faulk might disagree
I think the mistake is in suggesting that Hall of Fame running backs share any one characteristic or, for lack of a better word, phenotype. Marshall Faulk, Tony Dorsett and O.J. Simpson all had elite speed and all of them are or will be in the Hall of Fame.
When I made my original comment, I wasn’t trying to slam Moreno, it just turned out that way.
But, if you had to gulp some veritaserum or sodium pentathol, wouldn’t you honestly say, in your heart of hearts, that you’d hope Moreno, a 22 year-old running back with healthy knees and on whom we’d just spent the 12th pick in the draft, would be faster than Buckhalter, an undistinguished veteran (you prefer more than “journeyman”?) who’s had at least three knee operations? Honestly?
Doesn’t that discourage you a little?
Is it that much of a stretch? Really? You’re not a bit disappointed? Not one iota?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 5:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ve already gone over the running backs who have excelled without elite speed, including several Broncos. So why should I care that Moreno isn’t faster than Buckhalter (according to McDaniels)?
How can you, on one hand, admit that many great RBs lacked top speed, and on the other, base your concerns regarding Moreno upon his lack of speed? You’re totally contradicting yourself. If you had said top running backs must have elite speed, then fine – you’re being consistent. But you’re not.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that
I never based my concerns regarding Moreno on his lack of speed. I never said that. Scroll down a few comments, you’ll see I said, “I never said Moreno was all about speed.”
I think Moreno isn’t special. That’s it. I think the praise that’s been heaped on him by so many in the MSM and here isn’t deserved because he rarely had to create tough yards on his own. He did a wonderful job playing in space. I’ve acknowledged that. But I think lots of college backs would do as well if not better than Moreno did, had they been given the same amount of space.
So there are two discussions going on here, and I think I’ve been consistent in each. In one, people are debating whether or not speed is a prerequisite for running backs to be successful in the NFL. I don’t think that’s the case. I think there are lots of running backs of all speeds who have been successful in the NFL. There are always examples to prove any point.
The other discussion is whether or not Bronco fans should be disappointed that Moreno isn’t faster than Buckhalter, a 30 year-old running back who has had multiple knees surgeries. I think they should be.
That’s a pretty low bar, don’t you think? It’s not like we’re comparing Moreno to Darren Sproles or Jerious Norwood. We’re comparing his speed to Buckhalter’s, who happens to be 30 years old and has had multiple knee surgeries.
I’m really surprised that this offhanded comment ignited such controversy. Very surprised and amused.
Let’s play a game: Imagine it’s still Monday, before the quote had been published, had I asked you or the MHR community, “If you had to guess which running back was faster, Knowshon Moreno or Correll Buckhalter?” I bet 90% of the posters here would have said, “Knowshon Moreno is faster.” After all, it’s not like we’re comparing him to Willie Gault. It’s Correll Buckhalter. Now, according to the head coach, he’s not. That’s disappointing, don’t you think?
Am I the only one who finds this funny?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
evidently so.
And if I remember correctly, you based your assessment of Moreno vs. other backs available in the draft on youtube clips, yes?
I’d be more concerned were McDaniels saying Buckhalter evinces better lateral movement, quickness, toughness, and vision inside the tackles than does Moreno. Because those are the attributes of Moreno’s game I’ve heard consistently touted.
Still in all, a veteran RB who averaged 5 yards a carry had to get those yards somehow.
by JeffG on Jun 24, 2009 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
true enough
I did see Georgia play a couple times though, Florida and Bama. But for most of the backs, it was Youtube clips. And that was the case with Knowshon too. But even comparing highlight to highlight reel, I didn’t see Knowshon adding value. I saw him reaping the rewards off his teammates’ efforts and playing well in space. Contrast that with Ringer or Andre Brown, two guys who got extra yards on their own. I really don’t want to rehash all of this. I’ve already been there and done that.
And I don’t think Correll Buckhalter’s a bad player. There’s no shame in sitting behind Brian Westbrook. I thought he was pretty good coming out of Nebraska.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are in for a wonderful surprise with Moreno
As someone who has seen 90% of Moreno’s snaps, I firmly believe that you have a real treat in store for you once we get to see him on Sundays.
The kid is special.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 25, 2009 1:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're right
I love to be pleasantly surprised.
Sorry for the delay in my reply, I was stuck in a country with limited telecom infrastructure for the past few weeks.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jul 18, 2009 8:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again...
…being the fastest doesn’t mean you’re the best. I don’t have any stats behind me on that one, but I know of a lot of burners who never left much of a mark in the NFL, and a lot of average-speed backs who left a great legacy. TD is an example of the latter. Strength, vision, cutting ability, good hands, good forward lean – those are all qualities that, to me, are more important than sheer speed, and Moreno has all of them. Sheer speed only becomes important in a foot race, but you have to get behind the defense before that comes into play. Remember Gaston Green from the late 80’s/early 90’s timeframe? He was silly fast, one of the fastest I’ve ever seen, but he rarely got a chance to display it because he didn’t have any other strengths.
by ShawnDenver on Jun 24, 2009 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do
Those 60 yard TD gallops sure were exciting, but they were few and far between. Mostly, what we saw with Gaston was 1, -3, 2, -3, 1, 3, -4, etc.
Top line speed is most definitely not the be-all end all.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 24, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow... "Gaston Green"
That’s a name that I had almost forgotten… I wonder why… ? ;)
But seriously, Gaston had that good of speed? I never really remembered being impressed by his speed at all. Maybe it’s due to having a similar recollection of that of AllBroncosAllDay’s.
by tunga77 on Jun 24, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only remember gaston from "Tecmo Bowl"
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 25, 2009 1:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, that was the ONLY thing he had
Couldn’t break or shake a tackle to save his life, couldn’t run into the middle, couldn’t really catch. The only thing he had was top-line speed.
Really, he’s the perfect example as to why AJF’s “concern” about Knowshon’s speed is just silly.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 25, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowshon's not all about speed
He’s not a speedster/burner, as you seem to think. He’s a power guy that has quicks and agility- not top line speed.
And I for one, am not worried about that.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 24, 2009 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure if this was directed toward me
I’ve never once claimed Knowshon was all about speed. I’m not sure what Knowshon is all about. I don’t like the pick…not one bit. I won’t rehash why I don’t like Knowshon as I’ve made my arguments and have been almost universally lambbasted elsewhere; but suffice it to say, I believe he will let all of his supporters down. In summary, he reminds me of a slow Reggie Bush. I can honestly say that I hope I’m wrong.
My point is that I’d hope that a 22 year-old running back whose never had knee problems (to my knowledge) would have more straight line speed than a 30 year-old running back who’s had multiple knee surgeries. I never said straight-line speed was the be-all, end-all in determining running back success. I only said it was disappointing and worrisome.
That’s all, no biggie. God, I love MHR. Short of the actual season, does it get any better than this?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, fine
But I think you’d find fault regardless, given that you’ve already admitted that “you don’t like the pick, not one bit.” and that you’re “not sure what Knowshon is all about.”
Seems to me that you’ve already come to a conclusion, so I guess there’s no real point in discussing further.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 24, 2009 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Speed is overrated in running backs. Having a burst of speed is great but if you can’t read blocks and make cuts, have field vision, who cares how fast you are? The Broncos have had plenty of speed burners come in at running back who didn’t amount to much.
Give me speed but give me RB intelligence and field vision. As noted above, Davis, while not at all slow, was not known for being a speed burner and that was one reason why he fell in the draft. The rest is history.
I’m pretty happy with the Broncos RB depth this year, it may be the deepest roster of RB talent they’ve had in as long as I can remember. And after what happened last year that’s reassuring. Knowshon will be the #1 guy by mid season though.
by underdog on Jun 24, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually TD proved you don't need any vision at all. (superbowl) just kidding.
by ThorpeBroncosfan on Jun 24, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
:)
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 25, 2009 1:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Listen I've watched every game of Knowshon's career,
cause I’m a huge SEC football fan. Go Gators!
And he is nothing like Reggie Bush. Knowshon is a power back who runs over SEC defenders (owner of a great stiff arm even), you know the league where the best defenses in the nation reside. Reggie Bush is a scat back. Has been since high school.
To compare the two shows an obvious bias, based on very little evidence. I’d be shocked if you saw one Georgia game in Moreno’s career if you’re making such a comparison. In not one game in his two year career has Knowshon done anything to conjure up memory’s of Reggie Bush.
Clinton Portis on the other hand is a very valid comparison. Both are backs who can run over people and posses great footwork, yet, don’t posses that “break away” speed that only fans think is important. Also neither player is a “big back” despite their preference to hit defenders. BTW, Portis averaged 5.5 ypc in Denver.
Who knows what Moreno will do in the NFL, but comparing Moreno to Bush, is akin to saying that Mike Vick is the second coming of Peyton Manning, it’s that far off base. Let’s at least act like we’ve seen the player we’re criticizing.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 24, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally disagree
I haven’t seen every game of Knowshon’s career but I have seen him play before. And I really have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Knowshon Moreno excels in space, just like Reggie Bush. Mark Richt did a commendable job of getting the ball to Moreno in space. When he was in space, he was able to use his vision to find the path of least resistance upfield. But that’s the easiest time to see things, when you don’t need to sift through the crowd. And that’s why Reggie Bush has found the NFL more challenging – that space doesn’t exist in the NFL.
Terrell Davis’ vision was brilliant because he was able to string out the defense, find the slot and cut back. That was vision in a crowd. Vision in traffic. The two varieties of vision don’t compare. Terrell’s was incredible. Knowshon’s…well, it bears proving.
As for him being a “power back,” that’s crazy. I tried to find Moreno’s yards after first contact, but was unable to do so. But to suggest that he’s running over SEC defenders is blatantly inaccurate. It’s just not true and it’s irresponsible. You make him sound like Earl Campbell.
And your assessment of Clinton Portis’ skill set confuses me as well. He had breakaway speed. Remember that Kansas City game? He ran wild. He’d breakthrough the line and be gone. I’d say if I had to criticize Clinton Portis’ skill set, I’d say it was his footwork. How many times did you see Clinton hit the hole with nothing but blue sky between him and the endzone and he’d mysteriously trip on the yard line? It probably happened five or six times his last season here. Don’t get me wrong, I think Clinton’s a great back and I think he’s been under- or misutilized in Washington. But he routinely tripped over phantom tackles ending what would have otherwise been long touchdown runs. At least while he was here.
But back to Knowshon, he seems like a nice kid. And I realize that my assessment goes against the grain of the popular view here. You mentioned bias in my assessment; I’ve got to believe there’s some self-serving bias skewing the popular MHR view on Moreno. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me. I don’t believe he’s going to be anything special. To hear some people describe him, not only was he the most capable and skilled offensive player in the draft this year, but he’s a lock for Offensive Rookie of the Year. And future Pro Bowls await.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Portis
But I think it’s strange you make it sound like only MHR readers are high on Moreno. The only negative opinion I’ve ever read on Moreno came from Football Outsiders, whose speed rating didn’t favor Knowshon. But that of course, is a measure with some notable exceptions (like the aforementioned Brian Westbrook, who was considered slow coming out of college).
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 4:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not what I meant, but that's what's relevant here
I did make it sound like it’s only MHR readers who are high on Moreno and that’s not the case. Lots of people in the MSM are high on Moreno. Since you’re in NYC (I’m presuming) you don’t know who Joe Williams is. But he’s a local talkshow host who fancies himself an absolute authority on college football. He thinks Moreno will be “The Next Great Running Back.” I like and respect Joe Williams and I often agree with him. But not on this kid.
I mentioned self-serving bias above, it’s inconsistent for the good folks at MHR to only listen to the MSM when the MSM is saying things they like to hear or things that make them feel good about the Broncos. As boydy said, “You can’t have it both ways!”
I think the MSM is wrong and I think the popular view on Moreno is wrong. The great thing about this is, eventually, we’ll find out about Knowshon Moreno.
And I did see some reports that suggested, as I have, that this running back class was “flat,” meaning that there wasn’t a huge talent differential between the first and third rounds. That’s the problem I have with the pick. First and foremost, I don’t think Knowshon will be anything special. But I also believe that running backs with similar (or better) talents could have been had in later rounds.
I don’t want to rehash my views here. Maybe I’ll try to find the other thread where I articulated my criticisms.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree or disagree
You have to admit your opinion has been well articulated here. Thanks for sharing with us. You do a very solid job of backing up an opinion that is not popular here at all.
I share your sentiment in this: We will see with Knowshon. He has a lot to prove and a big mountain to climb if he wants to be a real #1 RB in the NFL.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jun 24, 2009 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
Thanks, that’s kind of you to say.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I often agree with AJF, but in this case, he seems to be basing his assessment on some youtube clips.
He may prove to be correct and the Broncos prove to be wrong, but I’m quite convinced that the Broncos likely put in the more advanced scouting.
by JeffG on Jun 24, 2009 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
right-o
but I’m quite convinced that the Broncos likely put in the more advanced scouting
Truer words have never been typed.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say anything about the MSM in regards to Moreno; so I don’t see how I’m having it both ways. Personally, I value the eyes of Styg and TedBartlett above those of any others.
I don’t see how a generalization about the running back class is so much a specific criticism of Moreno.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, you lost me
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. It’s probably my bad. But, I’d like to understand your point, could you rephrase it for me?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a problem with MHR folks knocking the MSM and then citing them. I wasn’t doing that.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 6:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to be clear...
I have no problem with folks doubting Moreno’s skills or future successes. I have no idea whether he will pan out for the Broncos. None. But I am absolutely sure that if he’s a failure, it won’t be due to a lack of speed.
Also consider this; what makes you so sure that Josh McDaniels was being honest when he said Buckhalter was faster than Moreno?
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 6:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't read McDaniels' mind
I have no idea what his intentions were. His thoughts seemed genuine to me.
But to speculate on what McDaniels may or may not be really thinking is pure folly. The only thing we can discuss is what was actually said, right?
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I do not care if Buckhalter is or isn’t faster than Moreno. Won’t mean anything for Knowshon’s career.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 24, 2009 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting take on a player's momentum
That’s the great thing about this debate, it won’t be long now before we get a handle on Knowshon’s capabilities.
Until then, FootballOutsiders has sliced up some combine numbers and compared them to other drafted running backs’. It’s kind of an interesting take, but Knowshon supporters should be warned: It doesn’t cast him in a favorable light. If my comments got your blood boiling, this article will give you a T.I.A.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I already acknowledged that one above
It’s an interesting metric for sure, but they were dead-wrong about the oft-mentioned Westbrook, among others.
by Douglas A. Lee on Jun 25, 2009 5:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm not sure what
you can learn from only watching a few games of Knowshon, but on multiple occassions I’ve seen Knowshon stiff arm and lower his shoulder on his way through SEC LBs, including this last season versus USC (#1 defense in SEC in 2008). None of which makes him sound like Earl Campbell, but for someone saying Knowshon looks like Reggie Bush, I’m not surprised that leap was taken. Yes he is more of a power back than speed back.
I just take exception to what I view a a purely ludacris comparison. Reggie Bush cannot block. Knowshon was the best pass blocking back in the draft. Reggie Bush cannot run up the middle. Knowshon regularly scored up the middle with the line stacked against him; red zone or otherwise. You question his vision, yet, Georgia operates a Zone Blocking Scheme and Knowshon was able to produce a 5.6 yard per carry average against, again, some of the best defenses in the country. To even be successful running behind the ZBS you have to have good vision.
But to paint Knowshon as a purely scat back who’s worthless at blocking and running up the middle like Bush is a completely unfair and inaccurate review of the skills he presented weekly in college. Bush never showed a willingness to block, much less be successful at it, nor the ability to run up the middle.
Knowshon is not even the same kind of runningback as Reggie Bush. You literally picked two players at complete polar opposites of the runningback spectrum. Like I said; comparing Mike Vick to Peyton Manning.
If you’re looking for a negative comparison, look at Carnell “Cadillac” Williams, who is much, much, much more similar back to Knowshon than Bush could ever dream of being.
I don’t know what Knowshon is going to be like. Being a Gator fan I despise everything Georgia, yet, I could/can not deny that it was Knowshon who would beat you, not Matthew Stafford. At least, that’s who Charlie Strong always game planned to stop.
And your assesment of Portis is just as confusing to me. To even play behind the zone block scheme, you have to have the footwork to make a cut back. Not exactly a move one makes and keeps his balance without good feet, much less average 5.5 yards versus NFL defenses. If we’re going to talk about someone tripping the name Tatum Bell is the only that needs to be mentioned. That’s what poor footwork from a RB looks like. Portis had and still has good feet, it’s a big reason why he’s one of the best pass blocking backs in the NFL; good blockers have good feet, i.e. Clady. Yes he is faster than Knowshon, though speed is irrelevant, but Knowshon is more physical than Portis was coming out of college.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 24, 2009 7:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
georgia ran a zone-blocking scheme?
You said,
Georgia operates a Zone Blocking Scheme
I don’t think they do. Short of your claim that you’ve watched every one of Knowshon’s games the last two years, can you produce source that proves they run the zone-blocking scheme?
In fact, what I’ve read suggests that Mark Richt runs a man-blocking scheme. And that when Florida State adopted the zone-blocking scheme it “was a departure from what” they ran under Mark Richt, when he was OC there.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’d like to think that if I’d watched every Georgia game for the last two years, I’d be able to tell if the Dawgs were running a zone-blocking scheme. But that’s just me.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 9:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the fun of debate...
…I can think of a loss that might have been different if not for ‘speed’ issues at running back. Take your minds back to the last classic regular season game at Invesco Field— October 29, 2006 against the Colts. On that day, Mike Bell absolutely shredded the Indy defense in the second half. However, he got tracked down three times on what should have been long scoring runs. The Broncos were unable to convert those stops to TD’s, and Denver ultimately lost. Had Bell scored on just one of those, you have a tied game. If he scores on two, its a win. If he hammers all three home, its a blow out.
Its a rare case. But the lack of speed can in fact be a difference maker on the football field.
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 24, 2009 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I still don't understand Cutler's 'side'
They had the temerity to talk about him?
I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"
by PredominantlyOrange on Jun 24, 2009 9:08 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Torain
I found it interesting that McD referred to Buckhalter as our fastest back. For some reason I thought Ryan Torain was. But his combine speed was 4.61. I saw more of him last year in training camp than on the field and was impressed by two things: he has great lateral movement but looks smaller than his stats. I saw some of that shiftiness in his limited appearance last year. But he has a history of getting hurt. Don’t you think that he is more “on the bubble” than any of the other backs?
The other back I don’t hear much about is Darius Walker. He ran a 4.56 at his 2007 combine. I’m wondering if he has a better chance of making the team than Torain.
Regarding Knowshon – he ran a 4.60 at the combine.
Finally, SPEED IS NOT EVERYTHING. It does not bother me in the least that he is not the fastest because I think he demonstrates superior lateral movement and vision. He’s a very good blocker and very good receiver. Knowshon, on paper, is by far the best and most versatile back. His stats and intangibles combine to present an exciting prospect this year and for years to come.
by Endzone on Jun 24, 2009 9:35 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Endzone
I would rather have a guy that could bust a 35 yarder or 5 yds a carry , than someone that could take it all the way every play. My reasoning for that is the importance of clock management.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
by KaptainKirk on Jun 24, 2009 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrell Davis
I still remember being amazed when TD would patiently wait for the OLine to create a crease and then juke a lateral and BUST A MOVE through the hole. The second step was he would punish whoever tried to tackle him. Knowshon’s videos make me think he can not only punish but juke his way away from defenders.
Yeah, I know, I’m getting my hopes up already about Moreno.
by Endzone on Jun 24, 2009 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the Broncos 1st superbowl win again last night
Several times TD was caught in the open field. He was average at best in regards to his “top speed”. But man oh man, he could see the whole field, he hit the hole HARD, and absolutely punished defenders that were unfortunate enough to take him down. He always seemed to fall foward, dragging full grown NFL defenders with him.
By the end of the 4th quarter, that vaunted Green Bay defense was gasping, battered, bloody and bruised. And this was with TD sitting out the 2nd quarter.
It was funny when the announcers were talking about him, when asked what his favortie hobby was he said “sleep” :)
He was a very, very special player, but he was not what I would call by any means a “fast” RB.
by powderaddict on Jun 24, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "Lean"
TD had tremendous determination to “lean” for every scrap of yardage. Hillis has that. Portis did/does not. even though he is otherwise a great back. Mike Anderson had it. We’ll see if Moreno has “it”
TD had a humble character and let his work speak for itself. He is without a doubt one of the greatest running backs ever, both on and off the field.
by Endzone on Jun 24, 2009 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
TD was special
You’re both right on. TD was special and it’s an insult to his legacy to compare Knowshon Moreno to him. So far, the only things they have in common is where they played in college and which team drafted them.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loved the Denver Daily
“Broncos rookies still on the bubble”
Well, yes, seeing as how we’re not even in training camp, that’s probably true………..Oy….
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jun 24, 2009 9:47 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Is the Denver Daily a local high school paper? I am just asking!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you guys think both Buckhalter and Jordan will make the final 53?
Torain?
by McGeorge on Jun 24, 2009 9:49 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Torain's out
Jordan and Buckhalter are proven.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jun 24, 2009 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think all 3 will make it and Walker will not make it. Jordan will see some time at FB I think in some sets.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great question
Wow…a football question instead of dictionary reviews…NICE!
Yes, I think they will both make the cut. I believe Torain will be a casualty and Walker.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jun 24, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for the heck of it
I’ll predict that Torain will be put on IR to be used later and Walker will be on the PS for the same reason. Walker’s background is better than one would think – This is from Scouts.com, Notre Dame review, 2005:
Walker is a special back…he isn’t fast, but he is shifty and has a nice burst when he gets to the hole. He runs well between the tackles and can get to the outside…sets up his blocks very well and is very patient. He can catch the ball and blocks…Bottom line is that he does everything very well. The only thing Darius needs to improve on is his strength and power, but we fully expect that to be taken care of in the off-season…With veteran offensive line that averages 567 career minutes played in front of him, we expect Walker to rush for well over 1,000 yards.
Worth a little time on the PS, just to see, I’d think
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jun 25, 2009 10:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks NYC.
It is nice to wake up and have all this info ready. You do awesome work.
This video in the link about Marshall’s friend Walker was interesting. One of the guys was the first one I heard to mention BM having only 3 TD in the last 12 games. Fianlly someone who has done their homework besides us.
Well, finally KC is retiring Thomas’ number which is a good thing. He was a good LB and I guess it is fitting that this ceremony take place when they play the Broncos.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Jun 24, 2009 10:27 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
On a more somber note
I think our thoughts need to be with Casey Wiegmann today. His high school coach, Ed Thomas, was shot and killed in his high schools weight room this morning.
http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/football/news/story?id=4283443
My thoughts and prayers with the families and everyone in that small town.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 24, 2009 12:45 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more with Lombardi's article.
Last season I strongly felt that our defense’s three biggest weaknesses were; Gap Control, Tackling and Poor Scheme, not necessarily talent. All three come down to coaching.
I felt with improved discipline to help the gap control and tackling, particularly our seemingly endless desire to arm tackle, and better game planning our defense could have at least cracked the Top-20. Not huge, but tackling and being in the right place can make a huge difference on defense. Just ask last year’s Dolphins.
In fact, the replacing of Slowik with Nolan, to me, is not the biggest change we made. The trio of Nunnely, Martindale and Donatell is the biggest move the Broncos made. If those three can get the players to play with discipline our defense should be improved simply by tackling better and staying in their gaps.
Shanny’s tactic of just changing the scheme through the coordinator while keeping the same ineffective assistants was the very definition of insanity. I’m excited to see a new foundation in the defensive coaching staff and what they can do.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 24, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Coaching
I agree that the biggest move was replacing the coaching staff. That may be even more important than the players. But I respectfully want to add that the team got rid of a lot of ineffective talent as well get new coaches. Nate Webster , Niko Koutouvides, Marlon McCree and Marquand Manuel had to go. Dre may have been a victim of poor coaching. Boss Bailey was on IR most of the season. I was a lot more upset with the play of Webster, McCree and Manuel than I was with the Dline.
by Endzone on Jun 24, 2009 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second that in regards to Nate Webster
Watching Nate Webster was literally the most embarrassed I have ever been as a football fan. I started feeling sorry for him. How any self-respecting NFL player could be so out of position EVER single play is beyond me. Then the problem of not being able to tackle sticks, much less football players.
It was painful to watch him try to play the game of football. Kinda like watching a mentally handicapped player, you know he’s doing his best and giving his all, but it’s still really, really bad.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Jun 24, 2009 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was embarrassed for Slowik and Shanahan...
When they said the best guy would play and they replaced Larsen with Webster…..thats when I started praying that Shanny would leave and we would have a new sheriff in town.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jun 24, 2009 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

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