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Middle Linebacker?

 

I read John P. Lopez's story Classic middle LBs are roaming their way to extinction and realized that the Broncos don't have a "classic" middle linebacker and have not had a good one since Al Wilson.

The story has a picture of Ray Lewis playing in the Ravens' hybrid 4-3/3-4 defense. Ray is 6'1" 250 and listed on the Raven's website as "ILB".  We don't even have that category on our roster. 

My question is whether we have a "hybrid" middle linebacker?  If so, who is/are they? I don't see DJ in that role.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Ditto

and Andra Davis has been very productive playing the other ILB spot in Cleveland. He’s just not a sideline to sideline guy, which is the rub on him. He makes 90 – 110 tackles a season consistently, but he doesn’t time well.

I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 1, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

"doesn't time well"...yet.

I’m not sure if he has ever had the caliber of coaches he has now with Nolan, Nunnely, and Martindale. Hopefully they can help him address that.

by bfree2bronc on Jul 1, 2009 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

DL

I agree for RILB. I’m probably not understanding very well. But it seems the prototypical Ray Lewis type is an MLB and LILB. We’ve got Andra Davis and Spencer Larsen that both seem great for LILB but maybe not so much for MLB? DL never stood out as a MLB.

by Endzone on Jul 1, 2009 12:13 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I didn’t understand! I did more research and saw that Ray plays RILB. That solves that part of the question. That still leaves me wondering what to do when we run a 4/3? Do we use DJ there? I remember McD saying we were going to run multiple defenses.

by Endzone on Jul 1, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Most likely it will be DJ when we switch to a 4 – 3. He has the knowledge, capability, and athleticism to do that no problem. (made over a 100 takles a couple years back when he was in that role).

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Jul 1, 2009 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think...

PDO is right on with the inside spots. We’ll see DJ in the Ray Lewis type role in the 3-4, with Davis or Larsen in what is called the bulldog role. But, if I recall Ray started coming out in certain passing situations the last couple years. Depending on what the 4-3 is used to counter, I’d say DJ is still the right guy in the middle, but I think Larsen could end up being the primary MLB for the 4-3 IMHO.

by bchiper on Jul 1, 2009 12:29 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

If it matters

I think that DJ is going to what will be his natural position. It takes some getting used to to understand the responsibilities in the 3-4 – and there are so many different 3-4 looks, too. Sometimes folks talk as if there is one 3-4 but there are 3 major variants and many different sub-variants for each, each one with it’s own wrinkles. The main thing is the areas of responsibilities – the gaps – are a little different. DJ is incredibly athletic – he’ll be able to shoot a gap, drop into coverage, play the run. Davis’ power makes him a natural at RILB – Larsen will get to learn the position for a year and then we’ll see. He could always be a backup or move up to starter. It’s not a bad thing to have a career ST/backup RILB/backup FB. In fact, it’s great. Talk about versatile

And you can look at Woodyard as very versatile – he plays with more power than his build should permit, hammers the run, can also play ILB or either OLB position. After notching 10 tackles a game for part of last year, I bet McD finds a plac for him.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 1, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you think he could become a productive...

strong side type on the outside? I wonder about his frame and whether he’ll be a victim of scheme change. I have no doubts about his ability to play the weakside in a 4-3, or even RILB in a 3-4. I’d hate to see a guy like that fade out because of lack of opportunity. It could be he ends up buried behind D.J…I don’t know. I guess that’s why I’m asking…

I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 1, 2009 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cant keep a good player down...

And WW is a hell of a player.
Remember, that was the knock on Zach Thomas too and he has played well in both schemes.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Jul 1, 2009 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which One?

PDO, are you asking about Larsen or Woodyard? My guess is Woodyard and that he gets buried behind DJ.

by Endzone on Jul 1, 2009 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the Ameoba philosophy...

…the players don’t have to worry about being buried. The plus is that every good player can rotate in and see time. The drawback is that players don’t get the benefit of being true starters, which can hinder pay potential.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 3, 2009 4:56 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...Woodyard.

I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 1, 2009 2:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Several thoughts....

First I’d like to dispense with the myth of the dominant middle linebacker. In the last 50 years, how many truly dominant MLBs can you name: Nitscke, Butkis, Lambert, Singletery, Seau, Lewis, others??? Remember Gradishar was never a MLB. That’s about 1 every nine years.

Even so, MLB is fading as a marque position. That is because the game has changed. Those MILBs are remembered because they were dominant run stuffers. They made big plays in the middle of the field. But offenses have changed over the years. The WCO, zone-blocking, spread offenses have reduced the opportunities for MLBs to make the highlight-real plays we expect of a dominant MLB. In addition defensive changes have also limited their exposure. The prevalence of Tampa-2 defenses changes the role of MLB from a dominant run stuffer to a sideline to sideline player and a coverage guy. More teams are shifting to 3-4 defenses where the middle defense is shared by two LBs instead of a single MLB.

Finally Fantasy Football and video games have reduced the cache of the MLB position. MLBs don’t generate the kind of individual stats that so many fans obsess on these days. MLBs have never been big sack generators; they may get very timely sacks, but they don’t generate the big numbers that a rush specialist does. Likewise they aren’t big interception generators; its not not their responsibility.

Maybe everthing the article says is true but so what? It’s like lammenting the demise of the “true fullback.” The game is changing; the game always has. Nobody regrets the demise of the true quarterback – a blocking back who called the signals.

We won’t have a MLB because we won’t be playing a 4-3 defense. And it won’t matter.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 1, 2009 2:36 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good thoughts...

Very thoughtful response SWG.

I thought McD said we would play the 3-4 predominantly but would also play the 4-3? If so, that might indicate a player with great run-stuffing abilities AND coverage skills might be the best fit. That might leave Andra out of the mix because he doesn’t execute sideline to sideline very well, leaving DJ (who would probably play weakside outside LB), Larsen and Woodyard. I think Woodyard’s frame might mitigate against him playing MLB.

Larsen sounds like the best candidate, but what about plugging Ayers in there?

by Endzone on Jul 1, 2009 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've posted on this...

See my discussion of hybrids, and the 5-2.

I think when we go to a 4-3 look we will simply have one of our OLBs put their hand down. This is what Pittsburg, NE and Baltimore all do. We still won’t be using a true MLB. As far as Davis is concerned, I think he is primarily a run stuffer and will come off the field in passing situations.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 1, 2009 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

NE has extended some careers at 'LILB'

Guys like Bruschi and Seau thrived in the NE system long after they couldn’t ‘run’ well anymore. SF picked up the aging ‘backer out of Seattle last year (can’t remember his name, don’t have time to search) and he had a very productive season. IMO, Andra Davis is going to have a huge role and he will produce. The LILB position, in a general sense, is the closest fit for the old school throwback MLB. The new generation guys fill the RILB position.

Davis will not only win that position but he’ll thrive….IMO, of course.

I am an idiot walking a tightrope of fortune and fame
I am an acrobat swinging trapezes through circles of flame
If you've never stared off in the distance, then your life is a shame
and though I'll never forget your face,
sometimes i can't remember my name.
--Counting Crows, "Mrs. Potter's Lullaby"

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 1, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Takeo Spikes

From Buffalo I think is the guy your thinking of. There are some great players who will thrive at ILB on our team. You could even toss Ayers into the LILB for a couple blitzing downs just to crash up the middle. I think though based on the on the roster you might see less 4-3 and more 3-4 5-2 base but have more 4 man nickle and dime fronts.

by maritimebronco on Jul 1, 2009 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

changes in the game

There was a good program on the NFL channel (surprising in itself) about the evolution of the game. One thing I came out of it with was how much the game has changed. The percentage of running plays in the 60s — for instance — was far greater. At least 60% of the plays were runs back then, and the percentages were nearly reversed by the 90s.

What a lot of people haven’t recognized is why players such as Maualuga or Laurinaitis weren’t taken anywhere near where we thought they would be going into the draft. At that time, we were still in a Shanahan/4-3 mindset, and Webster also had something to do with attitudes, but the fall of Mau and Lau wasn’t simply because they dropped in re-evaluations before the draft.

Look at where the ILBs went in the draft:

2nd round — pick 3(#35), pick 6(#38)

3rd round — NONE

4th round — pick 4(#104), pick 18(#118)

5th round — pick 1(#137), pick 10(#146), pick 14(#150), ?-pick 22(#158)

6th round — NONE

7th round — NONE

And players such as Beckwith, Ellerbe and others remained undrafted.

It’s a graphic illustration of how little demand there is for ILBs, and the story is far different when you look at OLBs.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Jul 3, 2009 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow

Count me as one of the"a lot of people," on that one. Thanks Ski. I trust your research and thought level on any analysis, without needing proof for that matter.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 3, 2009 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

demand is now very low for ILB/MLB

Mayock’s question — “Is he a three down player?” — was answered for Maualuga. But Mau wasn’t alone, and very few other ILBs went in what was considered a reasonably deep crop. OLBs, on the other hand, are still in demand. Four went in the 1st alone (including Ayers).

Why?

Pass coverage.

In the 60s, Dick Butkus and Ray Nitschke were rarely in pass coverage. There’s a reason that Clay Mathews went before Rey Maualuga, and DeAndre Levy went in the 3rd while Beckwith and Ellerbe didn’t go at all. Pass coverage ability is extremely important now because most offensive plays are passes. Mayock made an extremely good point with his question but we were too busy drinking the Kool-aid and wondering how much better life would be without Webster to fully comprehend it.

I’m not an ‘Xs and Os" guy so I’d like to hear what others think on this subject. Teams with multiple receiver sets create the need for defenses with multiple pass coverers — IMO.

BTW — pass rushing is primarily an OLB task, so there’s an added effect present in the OLB draft results.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Jul 4, 2009 12:10 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, SWG, for your commenton how we will probably go from a 3-4 to a 4-3 by simply having an OLB put their hand down.

Simply the thought of a “scheme change” could confuse people. This is very simple and straight forward.

by Blackknigh on Jul 1, 2009 4:33 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

So much versatility here!

Going into training camp, I can’t believe how many options Nolan has to go to. We’ve all talked about amoeba offense, but how about amoeba defense? DJ is so adept to change, I can see him lining up in myriad positions in all defensive variations, & being effective. Also, the Ted Block defensive scheme, so eloquently broken down, recd, & reviewed on this site, will create so many more opporotunities for all of the LBs, no matter where they line up. This entire defense will be able to morph instantaneously simply by a suitable threat stepping back & standing up, or moving forward & putting his hand on the ground. Look at all of the players we have on our roster capable of pulling that mirage off. The entire defensive roster is primed for extreme training camp competition. Iron shartpens iron. The defensive looks will be so situational, so many players will have opporotunities to contribute, I can’t help but getting stoked for what we all are about to witness. Remember the “No Name Defense”?. We are about to see the inception of the “No Face Defense”. My forecast for this coming season, for all opposing offenses, is pain, & plenty of it!

"He can take his'n n beat your'n, or he can take your'n n beat his'n." Florida A&M Coach Jake Gaither on Alabama Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant.

by turnerstoe on Jul 1, 2009 10:18 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It’ll be nice to have an attacking defense. I absolutely abhor the “prevent” defense. The only thing it prevents is my hair growing back.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 1, 2009 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Money

The original Lopez article highlighted the fact that Line Backers relative wages, were lower than other defensive position, particularly when compared to DE and DL. I think the reason for this are that there are a lot of good LB’s in the dratf but a great DL or DE is a rare commodity and therefore market forces casue their wages to be higher. Examples of this are Haynesworth ($100 million for 7 years) and Peppers ($16million for 1 year).

The best free agent LB IMHO was Bart Scott and his package was only worth $48 million over 6 years.

I do accept that these figures are not the true values apart from Peppers because they include various bonus’s that may or may not be paid, but the wage differential is still massive.

by CockneyBronco on Jul 2, 2009 2:15 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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