Mile High Report: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Follow the @sbnation NBA Twitter List

Tales of Mythology III

Denver Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton takes part in drills during the team's football minicamp at the Broncos headquarters in Englewood, Colo., on Sunday, June 14, 2009. (AP Photo/David Zalubowski)

More photos » by David Zalubowski - AP

4 months ago: Denver Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton takes part in drills during the team's football minicamp at the Broncos headquarters in Englewood, Colo., on Sunday, June 14, 2009. (AP Photo/David Zalubowski)

Myth #3: Mobility and the Quarterback

 

"He makes plays with his feet!"

That's something that you frequently hear from color announcers on football games when trying to explain the value of a quarterback. They're talking about the guy who can move the pocket, who can gain you yards out of the pocket, who loves the bootleg and the roll out. There's not a thing wrong with that - in Elway Country, there had better not be if you want to avoid being spammed, flamed, tarred and feathered (in no particular order). But the quarterback who really makes plays with his feet isn't necessarily the guy who leaves the pocket.

As always, it's best to define terms. This is not an argument against a QB who can roll out, bootleg, play action and throw across his body and even across the field. That requires a big arm and a natural skill that you will only rarely see; you have to love those guys. John Elway was the king of them; Jay Cutler can do it at times. That kind of skill is a huge boon if it's used right. There is a common debate as to whether the oft-heard idea that a college QB's ability to run with the football is really going to "re-define the QB position."

You will also hear this while listening to endless pre-draft and post-draft discussions: "He makes plays with his feet. That’s what sets him aside from other quarterbacks." How often have you heard this? You used to hear it with Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb. Michael Vick was another one of the supposed ‘new movement’ in quarterbacks (he came closest, before losing control of his life, and might achieve this yet, but he's a surprisingly patient pocket quarterback). Vince Young was a third. There were/are many. The running ability of these quarterbacks was going to redefine the position. What happened?

Star-divide

What happened in nearly every case (the jury remains out on Vick, who may play again) was that the demands of the modern NFL quarterback position are such that the position increasingly redefined these players rather than the other way around. The ability to process information, to make good decisions in a split moment and to make the throws that you need to requires all of the time that a good offensive line can give the quarterback. Over and again, what we saw from these players was that they had to do one of two things. They needed to stay in the pocket, look for their receivers and make the throws or give up on the pass quickly and try to run. If they did try to run, two things would consistently occur:

  1. They would miss receivers and the passing game would suffer.
  2. They would run, and in doing so they gave time to the faster modern NFL CBs and linebackers to converge on them and make tackles for short (or no) average gains.

Over and over, what we have seen is that the footwork that really does make the difference for an NFL quarterback is the ability to move within, not beyond, the pocket. Who is the best in the NFL? People’s opinions differ, but two names are never far from the top – Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

Manning’s mechanics may be the best in the NFL. If you carefully watch his footwork, he shuffles his feet in the pocket. No, it’s not ‘happy feet’ – he’s constantly lined up with his targets, shoulder’s squared, arm just right, doing all the tiny things that change a quarterback from good to great. He’s not going to make a lot of plays by running the football. That’s why he has running backs and receivers. He knows that his job is to calmly survey the chaos, dissect the defense and throw a dagger into it. By focusing on those functions, Manning has risen to the top of the quarterback position.

Coming from the lineage that he does, Manning has had the benefit of many years of top coaching, coaching that not all quarterbacks receive (to put it mildly). One of the things that stood out when Broncos HC Josh McDaniels ran his first minicamp was that he gave minute, detailed instructions to both Kyle Orton and Chris Simms on how to take instruction, run the huddle, call the plays, take the snap, and throw the ball. His approach was that no matter which QB took the #1 slot, they would know how to do everything the Broncos Way and the rest of the players in the huddle would be able to count on things being done a certain way and done right. Since then, McDaniels has spent huge amounts of time working with each QB on footwork and mechanics, breaking down even the smallest movements. Orton’s habit of patting the football – called ‘burping the baby’ – will be a thing of the past. Simms’ inconsistency is going to be diminished or eliminated. What kind of a difference could that make?

Another example is coming to us out of Green Bay. Aaron Rodgers had what was, for all purposes, a rookie season last year and he made some rookie mistakes. As he came into minicamps and OTAs this year, his coaches presented him with a list of 10 things that he needed to change in order to become the kind of QB that he clearly has the skill to be. The very first on his list was changing his footwork within the pocket. Keep in mind what kind of QB you are looking at with Rodgers; he put up over 4,000 yards, threw 28 TDs with only 13 INTs and yet his first job in the offseason will be changing his footwork. I thought that summed up the importance of this factor.

The job of an NFL quarterback is to effectively analyze the defense, call the play, receive the ball, and either hand it off or pass it. If a quarterback is noted for running – and I’m thinking of Dante Culpepper, Michael Vick and Vince Young among many others, including Donovan McNabb in his younger days – they tend to think pass, no, run!. But the reality is, that’s not their job and it’s not generally an advantage to the club. 

Consider this question answered by Ross Tucker of SI.com. Tucker is a former NFL player:

Could you comment on the issues that a 'mobile' QB creates for an offensive line in pass protection? I have noticed that various athletic and mobile QBs (Daunte Culpepper pre 2005 injury, Mike Vick, Matt Cassel, Ben Roethlisberger) seem to have a high number of sacks, even though they are considered to be very elusive and tough to bring down. Is it all on the offensive line for the high number of sacks?

--No name given, Corunna, Ontario

In my experience offensive linemen typically get excited when they initially work with a mobile quarterback because they feel as if that will help them give up less sacks, i.e., if they get beat, the quarterback may be able to avoid the pass rusher. That excitement, however, quickly gives way to the reality that a lot of times scrambling quarterbacks rack up higher sack numbers because they aren't always where you expect them to be when you are blocking for them and their confidence in their mobility leads them to try to extend plays when sometimes they should just cut their losses.

Ultimately, the most offensive-line friendly quarterbacks are the ones that get their team into the right play or protection at the line of scrimmage, set up in the pocket exactly where the linemen expect them to be, move subtly in the pocket to avoid pressure, get rid of the ball on time, and if all else fails, throws the ball away when nothing is there.

That's a third reason that mobility in the pocket has huge advantages. Do QBs really avoid sacks when they like to run outside the pocket? Tucker would say no, but conventional wisdom would say yes. It's a very good question.

The two best QBs right now are Brady and Peyton Manning, in either order. Both are talented field generals. Neither often ‘makes plays’ with their feet in the common parlance, but both do so constantly, in reality. Watch Manning’s feet carefully some time. He shuffles them within the pocket: his shoulders are always squared, the ball held perfectly, he’s constantly ready to make the throw and he can change directions by shuffling slightly within the pocket. Manning is thinking pass, pass, pass, okay, run. And that’s his job. His ability to make decisions is also otherworldly and no one doubts his leadership. The same is true of Brady. It's not coincidence that those two are the best in the business. Both avoid sacks regularly by staying in the pocket, concentrating on their art and throwing the ball promptly, even if it means throwing it away. By the way, that's one area where Kyle Orton has room to improve.

The reality is that when I was young, back in the 1950s and 60s, I was taught that a QB had 5 seconds in the pocket. If he didn't get rid of the ball within those 5 seconds, bad things would happen. In modern times, that's down to 2.5 seconds. Ben Alamar of the Journal of Quantitative Analyses in Sports puts it this way:

Time in the pocket and the rate at which the quarterback is under pressure are the two most important aspects of a team's performance (both offensively and defensively), yet no record of it is kept."

This is borne out by a simple story regarding Tom Coughlin of the New York Giants. In Week 10 of the 2004 season, Arizona sacked New York's QB Kurt Warner 6 times en route to a 17-14 victory. The New York media predictably piled on the offensive line, shredding them in print. Coughlin, though, went back over the tape with a stopwatch. He found that Warner wasn't getting rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds, nor 3 seconds. On thirty of the thirty-seven pass plays, he held the ball for 3.8 seconds or longer. Coughlin promptly benched him, and Eli Manning got his first start. The media was predictably clueless as to why the change was really taking place, but it's a great illustration of why the importance of a quarterback's mobility outside the pocket is often overstated. 2.5 seconds from snap to throw is all you get (Yes, Elway was, as always, a definite exception).

Watch Brady carefully. He constantly laughs about his own supposedly poor mobility, but that’s totally deceiving. He’s very mobile – within the pocket. His mechanics are tremendous; textbook, in fact. Where his hands are, his shoulders, his feet, how he moves any part of his body - every movement or position is scripted and purposeful. Manning’s may be even better. Those specific mechanics are the product of intense training, constant year-round repetition and careful coaching; they are the stuff that really wins games, week in and week out.

Many folks think that it's in the West Coast Offense that the quarterback's footwork is paramount. After all, every timing pattern starts and ends with proper footwork, right?  The WCO uses, almost exclusively, timing routes, set to the rhythm of the 3- or 5-step drop, right? That's true, as far as it goes. In the modern NFL, however, nearly every team uses some timing patterns. The term West Coast Offense has come to mean so many things as to be almost useless. Screen passes or no? Reverses, bootlegs? Go routes (Bill Walsh generally disdained them)? Run-based WCOs, such as Chicago's? Anathema! How about 2-TE power formations in the WCO? Well, sure, maybe, but....

What is important here is that all systems for QBs have one thing in common. They require the QB to have good footwork in order to be in position to make the necessary throws in a very specific amount of time. You need to perfect the QB's footwork to maximize the timing, the position of his shoulders and the QB's balance. Most plays aren't scripted to be run outside the pocket. Even those that are will require the same things of the QB - the balance, footwork and mechanics to make the throw. Footwork is a key to the game that may be exceeded only by decision-making and leadership. Beyond those two things (both of which are done without reference to the ball), making the throw you decided on will require the quarterbacking trinity of balance, footwork and mechanics.

If your quarterbacks coach is a good one (and books such as Phil Simms' Sunday Morning Quarterback cast doubt on that for many teams) he'll be breaking down the QB's movements and skillset using modern approaches such as slow-motion video that permits overlapping 4 to 8 images to promote the development of a specific motion until it's perfect. He will also know or employ coaches who know exactly what precise positions the quarterback's hips, feet, shoulders, arms, head and hands should be at every split moment of the progression, as well as how to run a huddle, call audibles, and break down any defense. Frankly, those kinds of coaches don't grow on trees. The Broncos are very lucky to have one, even if he's a head coach. Mike McCoy also has a very good reputation here. That's one reason that Jake Delhomme has done as well as he has.

The quarterback position is about learning incredible amounts of specific minutiae that will permit the quarterback to make good decisions and to throw the ball to his receivers. It’s not about how far or fast he can run or whether he’d make a good running back. So when you hear someone rave about the quarterback who makes plays with his feet, you might also ask how well that guy makes decisions and throws the ball. That’s what he’s really getting paid for.

Mobility to avoid sacks can be a positive. It can also lead to fleeing the pocket to avoid a sack just before your guy is open. Mobility to gain 1st downs is a positive, but only if there's no other choice - QBs get hurt running the ball and take unnecessary hits. The ability to be a 'wildcat' QB is good for a 2nd- or 3rd stringer, ala Pat White - but is nearly useless for your #1 guy. Why? You don't want to be paying that kind of coin for a fellow to block and run when he really needs to be mastering the quarterback position. If he really has mastered it over the years, you don't want to be exposing him to injury.

There is a final reason to respect mobility in the pocket even more than mobility out of it - every year, the NFL is going to seem to get a little faster. Every year, each QB is going to get a little slower, over the course of time. Age and repeated poundings do that to you.

It's not that there is a darned thing wrong with being mobile. It can be a very real benefit at certain times. But don't let it mislead you - first and foremost, the job of the QB is to be ready to deliver the ball, to make the decisions that permit him to do so and to throw it with excellent balance and good mechanics of delivery. Those things require footwork - in the pocket - to achieve good results on play after play.

Have you noticed the emphasis on that type of message from the 'new Broncos' coming out through the media? That's a good thing. As much as the conversation regarding which player is the better quarterback or who fits a certain system better, a better question might be "Which quarterbacks in the league get the teaching and coaching to learn the smaller points that will let them maximize the talents that they have (and do the hard work to internalize it)?" When the quarterbacks are getting that coaching, you can bet that footwork - within the pocket - will be at the top of their list.

Every quarterback makes plays with his feet. With some, it shows more than with others.

27 recs  |  Comment 72 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Thanks Bear

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 10, 2009 11:47 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Outstanding!

Manning is the perfect example. How many times do you see him take one step to the side and completely deny the pass rusher? Then he launches a perfect pass and doesn’t get himself creamed by a 300 lb lineman LOL.

I hope our QB’s listen closely to McD as he obviously knows the importance of this!

A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Jul 10, 2009 11:52 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Bear,

Thanks for the article very informative and educational….. :o)

by bchiper on Jul 10, 2009 12:00 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Great work BroncoBear!

Rec’d and very well done.

by rocko1 on Jul 10, 2009 12:08 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Bear

I am one of those fans who knows just enough about football to enjoy watching the game and actually point out some of the “little things” to my wife and kids, but always find in reading your articles that there is much I am missing. After having read this article I find myself respecting Bernie Kosar and Dan Marino all the more, and also believe I now know why Coach McD was more interested in Kyle Orton than either Campbell or Quinn. Can’t wait to see how this plays out in the season!

by 42n81 on Jul 10, 2009 12:11 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The Bears offered Two 1st rounder’s and a 3rd along with Orton. If Cleveland had offered a similar package with Quinn, don’t kid yourself, Brady would be our QB in 2009.

Or to put it this way, if Cleveland offered Quinn for Orton today, do you think Denver would say no?

When anyone says Orton was the key to the Cutler deal, that is nothing more than hot air. Those TWO first round picks were the key to the Cutler deal.

by McGeorge on Jul 10, 2009 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I don’t think that today there is enough information about either player to trade Orton for Quinn straight up.

The only thing Quinn has over Orton is he is younger.

But neither has played long enough or in a good system for someone to make that call.

Now if Orton was a problem child I think that trade could possibly happen…but from all the reports I’ve seen if he becomes our starter he will be mature, responsible and respectful to fans/media/teammates/coaches etc.

by trumanj on Jul 10, 2009 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have any evidence

that McDaniels and Xanders would have preferred Quinn to Orton, or is that just your opinion?
Just curious…

"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington

by Broncs Cheer on Jul 10, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Quinn but i do not think they would be traded straight up

because Orton has the better history and experience.

"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx

by dmitchell624 on Jul 10, 2009 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent pouints, but...

i would argue that Elway proves your point rather than being the exception to it. Even as a rookie who was both elusive and fast, Elway always ran in order to throw first and formost. He never had the yardage his athleticism could have produced, because he would always look for an open reciever and would always throw up to the point where he actually crossed the line of scrimage.

Others that you have named abandoned the pass much earlier and committed to the run at the first sign of trouble. Not Elway.

The other point is that sometimes running outside the pocket is still a good way to negate a rush, but as a designed play that does not surprise your linemen, but rather utilizes them. And again, it has to be done with the idea of creating a passing opportunity, not a running one.

And before you point to the number of QB draws that Elway ran, I would blame those on Reeves and the absolute lack of quality recievers.

by AlanC on Jul 10, 2009 12:20 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right, Alan

Elway was the exception to a lot of things. He was truly unique, and we will be lucky if we see his equal in the next 50 years.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will miss the days of the booter

Still one of my all time favorite plays to watch unfold.

Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just how in the world do you think it got to be this old?
— Anon

Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw

by Choochoobonewagon on Jul 10, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was there anything worse than watching Grease not make any plays with his feet? Inside or outside the pocket! When faced with any semblance of a pass rush, Brian went down faster than a Wednesday night hooker on Colfax.

I’d take a QB with pocket awareness and shiftiness over a runner all day long and twice on Sunday. Cutler was excellent at moving around in the pocket to avoid sacks, but I think the reason why his sack total was SO low also had to do with the fact that he should have taken a few more sacks to avoid throwing picks. Our O-line is great, but it was not 11 sacks all season great. I expect to see Orton get sacked at least 25 times next season. I’d prefer more sacks if it means fewer reckless picks.

From what I’ve seen of Orton, which admittedly is only a handful of games, his pocket awareness was pretty good. I don’t like his career 30 TD to 27 Ints, but better WRs & O-line should help improve his TD/pick ratio.

by McGeorge on Jul 10, 2009 12:25 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

BroncoBear - Great post

McG you make a great point with this connection…

the reason why his sack total was SO low also had to do with the fact that he should have taken a few more sacks to avoid throwing picks

If Cutler was hurried or knocked down right before a pick then it is obvious that he should have taken the sack which was eminent or toss an incompletion out of bounds which was always an option with his arm strength. Split second, subconcious decision making ability while the play is breaking down obviously can’t be coached but if the QB trusts his training and preparation, he’ll probably make better decisions in that siuation. In addition to drilling the QBs on how to run the offense, maybe the quick paced, scenario based, distance and down drills of McD’s are intended to develop those pre-, trans- and post- play decision making skills.

broncorat

by broncorat on Jul 10, 2009 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you don't like his career 30 TD to 27 Ints...

…Try subtracting his rookie year, where he was called on to start out of desperation.

Do that, and suddenly he looks a lot like Trent Edwards.

No need to thank me. I’m a giver.

by JeffG on Jul 10, 2009 6:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha

no need to pay it back, just pay it forward.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 10, 2009 6:57 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic article

The big thing that is lost in most MSM perspectives is that the QB position is all about learning, constantly. D’s will throw a lot of different looks at a team and are very fast. The QB position has become more cerebral than ever. A lot to process and we are talking split seconds. McD understands all of this and will make any QB he has on the team in the next decade a much better player.

 I agree completely that it is so frustrating when a QB’s run abilitiy is talked about so much, I really think it becomes a negative over time. The QB runs, taking touches away from the RE’s and WR’s, making them less involved as a whole and therefore making the team less successful. This is why I love hearing McD talk about what our team is going to look like. Each man on the field that is an eligible receiver better be able to catch because if he is open he is going to get the ball. Fundamental principle of the game but seems to be lost on most that talk about football.

There is no I in team.

by LovedemBroncs on Jul 10, 2009 12:42 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

True,

but I’d still take Steve Young any day of the week.

by JeffG on Jul 10, 2009 6:48 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then don't worry about KO's arm strength...

NFLN showed the 1996 qb challenge the other day and Young’s longest throw was 60 yards…and he was surprised he even threw it that far. Funny side note is that they had Ryan Leaf demonstrating the events and he threw somewhere around 72. Kinda makes you think arm strength is a tad overrated huh?

Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage

by TD4HOF on Jul 12, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Broncobear

The importance of coaching the proper mechanics cannot be underestimated. However very few coaches understand how muscle groups work. The importance is simplicity of isolated muscles that lead to the most efficient motion possible. For instance, if your hips are just five degrees too open when you start to throw, some other muscles will need to add power lost by not having your hips in position to rotate and add velocity at the right time. Multiply this by the muscle groups in the arm, shoulder, trunk, hips, legs and feet and you begin to see the complexity of muscle movement necessary for an accurate and efficient delivery of the football. Teachers such as McD totally get this. He is showing the QB’s how each little part contributes to the whole and makes throwing more effective, automatic and less likely to cause injury. This detail is so rare in football and is indeed arcane knowledge among QB coaches. You can’t do much about native talent — fast twitch muscles, innate leverage etc. but you can maximize a good athlete’s gifts into something special. For the first time I see this type of coaching occurring in our teams most important position.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 1:03 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

BTW

It is these inefficiencies of muscle movement that cause inaccuracy and variable velocity which lead directly to incompletions.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

A perfect analogy - A great pitcher in baseball

A great coach (pitching coach or Manager) usually makes a pitcher great in baseball. The raw talent and athleticism of a pitcher is already present, but it is the keen eye of a good coach that can teach fundamentals and mechanics to a player. Then the player has to practice the proper mechanics over and over and over until it is done with consistency.

This is so much more observable in baseball – the pitcher is the sole center of attention- than the quarteback is to the casual fan in football. When a pitcher struggles in baseball, whether over a period of games or even inside one inning of work – the brain-trust (the catcher,the pitcher, the manager and the pitching coach) all are observing the mechanics of the pitch delivery. For example is the stride of the leg in the throwing motion too long or too short, is the arm angle correct during delivery, is the follow through consistent. What are they comparing the observation to?…They are comparing it to their memory (or video) of when the pitcher was doing all the mechanics correctly, and having success. From that observation slight adjustments are made to return the pitcher to the correct mechanics of his proper delivery.

In football, a quarterback that is taught the correct and often subtle mechanics: of proper footwork, squared shoulders to the receiver, correct arm angle and follow through, etc and then practices, and practices, and practices will be a more consistent and accurate passer, then a “strong armed” thrower will ever be. McDaniels gets this…and I believe that Orton does also.

To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.

by Broncobh on Jul 10, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

bh, one of the things that I'm seeing

Has come from players like Simms, Young, etc, who say that we’re still not sully taking advantage of the breakdown in mechanics of delivery in the QB position. Given the money at stake, this has been very surprising to me, but I’m even more glad that our HC seems to be a very good coach for the QB position. It’s an innate advantage that McDaniels brings to the situation.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 5:21 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another analogy is golf.

Given the incredible amount of money available on various tours the attention being paid to muscle mechanics in golf has escalated beyond anything imagined several years ago. Propelling a club to strike a ball at over 120 miles an hour can be simplified to a discrete use of muscles to move the clubhead in a defined circle with no interference from inappropriate opposing muscles is the science being studied in great detail by professional golfers. Why not apply the same technology to passing the football?

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 8:56 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

From one doc to another - yep

And thanks – folks need to understand this

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand why folks don't think Shanny was a good QB coach?

While I agree McD is a good one, why do folks assume Shanny wasn’t?

Every Bronco QB in Shanny’s tenure had their best seasons as a Bronco with Shanny guiding them (one way or another)…. Elway, Griese, Plummer, Cutler… he even made Bubby Brister look like a semi-solid NFL QB.

I agree that Orton should improve… but that says more about Chi’s QB coaching than Shanny’s.

by cjfarls on Jul 13, 2009 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice post man.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Jul 10, 2009 1:13 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Another Thumbs Up

I think this is valuable stuff for Broncos fans for no other reason than we have been so impacted by John Elway. We had a guy for 16 years that was as much a football player as he was a QB, and the growing pains have been tough in trying to fill that void. The problem is that not only was Elway rare in his physical talents but also rare in being able to be successful with that style of play. Brett Favre’s career sort of solidified the romance of that type of player. Both were exceptions to the rule, and the NFL is evolving into a different style of play. McGeorge made an excellent point above about how frustrating it was for Bronco fans to have a more modern style QB in Brian Griese— heck it was almost a fan revolt by the end of the Griese ‘era’— and then we went back to the athlete Jake Plummer, who at times intoxicated us again with that exciting style of his play. All that was missing, we assumed, was the big arm and along came Jay Cutler. Somewhere along the way, a lot of us forgot that there are different ways to effectively play QB in this league— me included. I think a lot of the bitterness towards MacDaniels is as much about giving up on the Elway style of doing things. But it was way more about John Elway than the philosophy…and I think we tried long enough to rekindle that flame.

Anyway, thanks again for helping me move my brain into the modern age. My excitement grows the more I understand where MacDaniels is trying to get us, and you’ve been my most trusted guide so far.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 10, 2009 1:15 PM MDT reply actions   3 recs

Great stuff, Bear!

" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "

by hairybear on Jul 10, 2009 1:29 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

you da man!!!

All you get from drafting the "best player available" is a team full of good football players.

by orangeblood on Jul 10, 2009 1:38 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Another amazing article!

Thanks, Broncobear

From your article:

“Which quarterbacks in the league get the teaching and coaching to learn the smaller points that will let them maximize the talents that they have (and do the hard work to internalize it)?”

From what I’ve read, Orton is the first to arrive and last to leave every day. I think that shows that Orton is willing to put in the hard work to internalize all of the teaching he has received from McD. I really think we’re going to see a different Orton when the games start.

Thanks again, BB.

by solace on Jul 10, 2009 1:43 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

This is the type of quarterback I want on my team. Dedicated to learning, absorbing all the information and coaching and setting the example of a true leader.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally!

I also smile a little when I think back to how truly excited KO seemed to be about the opportunity being handed to him in Denver, to be a Bronco and be guided by McDaniels. He really seemed to recognize that it was a spectacular opportunity to rejuvinate his career and become the QB he always wanted to be. And remember how he showed up in Denver in almost no frames? He couldn’t get himself out of Chicago fast enough!

"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster

by broncosmontana on Jul 10, 2009 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really, really great breakdown...

It often gets lost how important footwork in the pocket is. I live in Indy and I’ve heard Manning called an “immobile” QB, though as someone pointed out how many times has he side stepped a pass rush or had the pocket nearly collapse on him and threw a bomb downfield to Harrison or Wayne? To often “pass first” QB’s don’t get credit for what they do with their feet in the pocket. Extremely informative and well thought out article. I enjoyed reading this.

by racer39girl on Jul 10, 2009 1:45 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

maybe that's why the call it "foot"ball?

Your emphasis on footwork made me think of Clady, and his praise from the get-go for his fabulous feet. Which got me to thinking, it seems like almost every position benefits from good footwork (and mechanics). I don’t intend to minimize the impact on the QB position — your insight here is enlightening and much appreciated — but it seems like footwork is, or should be, a team-wide concern. In addition to the QB, the entire team has 2.5 seconds to set up a play, and doing the little things right helps at every position.

Great read. Thanks as always!

by CoastalBronco on Jul 10, 2009 2:18 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

you bet, CB

Clady is a great example. The LT position mirrors that QB slot in that way, and nearly every great WR has great footwork. so do, I’d imagine, the top few at every other position.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome stuff

I learned several things in this article, and I love it!

I admit to being one that sees Peyton as ‘dancing’ in the pocket sometimes. It seems that at times when he doesn’t have Jeff Saturday, or his typical receivers or open routes, he’ll start getting ‘happy feet’ a bit and when he throws it always seems be low and in the ground, like his balance is a little off when he throws.

At what point does he go from bouncing/balancing on the balls of his feet to “dancing”, because it seems like he’s a bit prone to it, as good as he is.

by studbucket on Jul 10, 2009 2:40 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Surprised Plummer wasn't mentioned

Thought Plummer was one of the best at throwing out of the pocket.

by trumanj on Jul 10, 2009 3:33 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually...

Plumber was very average out of the pocket and tended to hurry throws. His forte was throwing on the move. Designed rollouts were his bread and butter. Scrambling out of the pocket, not so much.

by AlanC on Jul 10, 2009 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhhhh... okay

I read that initial post ase being ..Plumber was one of the best throwing FROM the pocket…. and I thought …whaaaat?

Sorry for the mixup, my bad.

by AlanC on Jul 10, 2009 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Though at times he was a bit reckless too :)

Which is one of the frustratingly lovable qualities about him

by trumanj on Jul 10, 2009 3:35 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Fundamentals!

That’s why I love football. You may be flashy, cutting edge, packed with potential to redefine the game… but if you don’t honor the game by sharpening your fundamentals, you’ll be consigned to mediocrity. A good lesson for life.

"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster

by broncosmontana on Jul 10, 2009 3:39 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Its also why...

Cutler wanted out of here. I don’t think he wanted to be coached in his mechanics. I believe that he didn’t think he needed it and especially from McDaniels. That is one the things that will keep him from ever seeing his full potential.

by AlanC on Jul 10, 2009 3:42 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Great analysis

Well put together and thought out. Although, I think “elusiveness” should be a separate term from “mobile.” Brady, Manning, McNabb, and Big Ben are elusive; Vick, Young, Quinn, and former player Steve Young could be considered to have great mobility.

Tweeners- Rivers, Cutler, and Jason Campbell?.

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

by propheteer on Jul 10, 2009 3:46 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Great post

love the depth

"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx

by dmitchell624 on Jul 10, 2009 5:03 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Always worth the read.

I love getting down to the details! :D Great post!

The part about the bootlegging reminds me of that HORRIBLE 32 teams in 32 days on Denver, when they spend forever talking about Cutler vs. Orton and show those retarded bootlegging videos. Ugh! That really irritated me.

The longer I spend reading articles on this site, the more I abhor anything Analysts have to say. ESPECIALLY on NFL Network. They’ll say whatever they have to say to get the good paycheck, even if they have to retardify themselves.

by USMCWall on Jul 10, 2009 5:15 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You are right...
The longer I spend reading articles on this site, the more I abhor anything Analysts have to say. ESPECIALLY on NFL Network. They’ll say whatever they have to say to get the good paycheck, even if they have to retardify themselves.

They have to justify their writing to execs with the amount of “clicks” on their stories. So when they do very little research and just stir the pot or fan the flames, they get a huge amount of clicks and the suits are happy. If they made the superlative effort like Bear makes on a consistent basis – #1, most readers these days on major media websites have the attention span of a gnat, so they would give up in the middle of paragraph two and say, “Whaaaaa? This is too looo-oong (insert sound of crying, here). Where’s the story about what the supermodel said to TO on that tv show?

MHR is an oasis in that respect. There are informed, intelligent articles here on a regular basis. It’s exciting to get such amazing breakdowns and analysis like this post by Bear.

Love it. Rec’d!!!

Take my advice... I'm not using it!
Just click your heels together three times and say, "There's no player like Hillis... there's no player like Hillis."

by BroncTastic on Jul 10, 2009 5:49 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get paid by getting to write

And by putting out something that I’m proud of. Those folks have bigger paychecks, bigger deadlines and limited ability to expound. If I wrote this for a MSM column I’d have to cut half of it. We all play our role, and this one’s just fine.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 5:27 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Well I for one, highly dig it!

You rock broncobear. I have yet to see a post from you that I would even consider quarter-a$$ed or incomplete in any sense! Thank you for dispelling yet another myth!

= )

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 10, 2009 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're a writer by trade eh?

Any advice for a potential journalism major?

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 10, 2009 6:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks a million.

That is such a cool story too. I’ve never heard of that. I don’t know if I’m cut out for journalism or any other type of creative writing, but I figure it’s worth a semester to figure it out, otherwise it’s Mechanical Engineering!

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 11, 2009 1:51 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

And, it can be both

If you have the kind of mind that enjoys MechEng you can also write technical books. That’s how I started, in medicine. The more I did, the more I liked it and it led to other things.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 11, 2009 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with bear

It can most definitely be both. When I finished my degree it was in Mechanical Engineering, and I have kept busy since highschool writing in any format or forum that would take me. Never discount the ability to look objectively at reality in order to craft powerful, relevant and meaningful language.

Above all else love what you do, and give yourself completely to it.

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 12, 2009 12:48 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wonderfully detailed analysis

with a suspicions confirmed punch. One thing that has surprised me, given what has been said about his ability to process information and make decisions, is how good Cutler was at moving around in the pocket this past season. It was a dramatic improvement and it contributed to the Broncos’ remarkably low sack total. But I have to wonder if his enhanced pocket awareness was bought at the expense of his pass-route awareness. He didn’t perceptibly improve at the latter. Did locking onto his primary receiver make it easier for him to maintain awareness, even peripherally, of the other team’s pass rushers? If so that’s a habit pattern that can respond to coaching — if the player is willing to be coached. Much of the drama of McJayGate was Cutler in effect saying, “You can’t tell me what to do.”

Evidently Orton loves being told what to do by a quarterback coach (McDaniels) who is arguably the best in the business. It’s encouraging as well as fascinating to know that McDaniels has mastered the minutia of quarterbacking so thoroughly and is so good at teaching it. What Orton has gained and Cutler has lost is not just a remarkably effective offensive line and a talented group of receivers, but also the kind of coaching that can enable a willing student to maximize his potential. From what I’ve heard Orton wants to learn and is an extremely hard worker. From footwork to decision-making, I think we’re going to see a lot of detail improvements that add up to a dramatically better quarterback.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Jul 10, 2009 6:40 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

It's no accident

Leinart spent some off-season time with Brady, and Brady worked with him on little mechanical adjustments, which Leinart said greatly improved his game.

But Cutler still has the best arm. Just ask him.

by JeffG on Jul 10, 2009 6:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you go from Pep Hamilton as your QB coach

to Josh McD, it’s not hard to understand the reason for all of the Orton smiles. Kyle is extremely competitive and just wants to keep improving. He worked hard in Chicago and the journey continues in the Mile High City.

by rocko1 on Jul 10, 2009 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice,

Two rec’ worthy comments in a row (thank you broncobear and spock!!!)!

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 11, 2009 12:33 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

ergonomics

What your talking about is the science field of ergonomics. (I believe) The doing of a job with the least possible physical effort. Efficiency. I became aware of this when I was young working in a resteraunt. The first resteraunt had a tiny kitchen but with success the owner built a new resteraunt with a bigger roomier kitchen. I came to hate the new kitchen because it slowed me down and I had to work twice as hard to do the same job. If Denver would apply this science to every possition and not just QB, ten they will become that much more successful

by 3nS on Jul 10, 2009 8:24 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Kinesiology

I think the analogous term is kinesiology — the study of muscles in motion in medicine. The most efficient use of a muscle is a direct contraction unopposed by the opposite muscle being partly contracted which reduces the speed and directional movement of the motion. Simple firing of individual muscle groups moves bones in the most efficient manner which propels the object being launched in the best possible manner. Sorry. This is termed in medical terminology. Basically, muscles work best when relaxed and doing the most simple motion based on their anatomy and attachments to bone.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 8:49 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is both, and I appreciate both points of view

It’s also muscle memory – working on a motion over and over until the neurons are patterned and respond without thought or effort. Every work that I’ve found on Bill Walsh, whose dedication and innovation I greatly admire, points out that he pushed the boundaries of permissible training hours with his QBs and receivers, making them work together until they knew each other’s strengths, weaknesses and patterns, permitting them to communicate, if needed, with nothing more than a glance.

I have no doubt that Orton, with what we are hearing is an excellent habit in training, will put in the hours needed to maximize his own potential. A good coach can work wonders, if the student is willing to put his ego aside and train each day as if he never learned before and would have the chance again. In eastern conceptualization, this brings in a quality of zen – mushin, a mind like water, placid and undisturbed, regardless of the violence of the world without. Relaxation, kinesiology and ergonomics can then combine in a harmonious whole.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zanzo

The quality of harmonious integration of body and mind to achieve excellence in present performance. The quality of being PRESENT to the situation in front of one’s totality.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simplicity of muscle movement

The most consistent muscle movement is the simplest which can be repeated under pressure because it is not complex. Emphasizing muscles which are able to be trained for consistency because of their isolated movement will lead to performance which is consistent and repeatable. Using multiple muscle groups will add complexity which cannot be used in a consistent manner under pressure and will fail in the crucible of game performance.

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 10:46 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I wasn’t sure what it was called. I know sometimes companies hire these specialists to increase production of their employees. Especially when designing new facilities. So I think it can be translated onto the football field.

by 3nS on Jul 11, 2009 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post Bear

While I agree with your assertion that the MSM greatly exaggerates the value of mobility in a QB I think we can easily go too far the other direction. When I think of the great QBs of the past 40 years or so that I’ve been watching I think of players like Staubach, Tarkington, Elway, Young, Moon, even (cough, cough) Favre. All these guys had wheels and used them effectively as well as being good passers. Even Bradshaw, while not much of a runner, used mobility to extend the play.

A mobile QB can make life miserable for the defense. I’ve heard many the defender describe their frustration at having the receivers blanketed only to have a QB like Elway scramble for the first down. Without mobility pass defense is essentially a game of 11 defenders on 10 offensive players. With a mobile QB it becomes 11 on 11. Even the running game becomes more difficult to defend when the defense has to account for the bootleg.

When a young Dan Reeves found himself with a very talented AND mobile QB he went out and found a OC who could exploit Elway’s mobility while also teaching him to be a good passer. Too many coaches force players to rigidly fit their system rather than exploiting the strength of the players. It’s my opinion that Plummer would have been more effective if Shanny had let him take off and run more. The tactical and psychological effect a running QB has is often not reflected in the stats. Look at the tactical nightmares that Vick created for defenses.

Furthermore, less mobile QBs often look very ordinary when their protection breaks down. Look at what NYG did to Brady; look at what SD has done to Manning the last few years.

All other things being equal, or even close, I would much prefer the mobile QB. However, no amount of mobility will overcome poor passing.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 11, 2009 5:03 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes
Too many coaches force players to rigidly fit their system rather than exploiting the strength of the players

That says it all

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 11, 2009 6:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

MileHighReport(MHR) is the ultimate independent resource for the Denver Broncos on the web. Along with MHR Radio, the official podcast of MHR, we look to provide hardcore Denver Broncos fans positive, independent insight about the Broncos, 24/7/365!
Start posting about the Broncos »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Kirk_and_allie_small
UPON FURTHER REVIEW - Scouting The Steelers
Hillis_small
The Weekly "I'm Tired..." Rant
Cutlerjersey_small
The Broncos Success - Is it Orton or McDaniels?
Ward_small
Ask a Steelers fan
Img_0515_small
Part 2: Chapter 1 -- The Raven

Recent FanPosts

Hillis_small
When Things Don't Make Sense
Broncos-1024x768_small
Holic's Week 9 Predictions...
Turtle2_small
RiG's week 9 picks ATS
Walter_small
THE LEGENDARY SECONDARY
Hillis_small
Is There Value in Losing?
Luff3_small
More Simmons Love...
Zoo_080_small
my midseason report
Royalwall-1_small
Welcome To Law (Pending Physical); Order Out of Whack in Las Vegas
Small
Broncos add Ty Law.
N1500960434_30298681_247_small
Broncos Agree to Contract with CB Ty Law

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Latest NFL Headlines from SB Nation

Field Gulls
Open College Football Thread
Mobile Live
Edgerrin James Messes With The Wrong Fullback
Mobile Live
Matt Hasselbeck's Square Wheels

Getting Social With MHR

Facebook_badge_medium_medium
Black_generated_button

Milehighreport_email_medium

MHR Radio

SPONSORS

Web Stuff


iPing-it!

Listed on BlogShares

Sports blogs Sports Blogs
Top NFL Fan Sites
Best Football Sites

Rate Me on BlogHop.com!
the best pretty good okay pretty bad the worst

Top Blogs
Sports Blogs




General Manager/Head Coach

Milehighreport_small John Bena

Aristotle_small Jeremy Bolander

Asst. Head Coach

Mhr_small Steve Nichols

Lynch_coat_of_arms_small Tim Lynch

J_elway_870111_640_small Douglas A. Lee

Plato_bust_small Emmett Smith

Denver-broncos-button_small Ted Bartlett

The-big-lebowski_small TJ Johnson

Quality Control

800px-john_brown_painting_small mdierk