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Horse Tracks 7-11-09 - Letting NFLN boil my orange-and-blue blood

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Mornin' MHR Friends! Now before I get accused of seeing everything through my orange-colored shades, let me just say that I don't expect John Elway to be #1 on everyone's "Greatest QBs Ever" lists. Nor do I think Jay Cutler is a terrible QB because of what happened. But how about we use some common sense here? If you want to put Elway at 7th greatest, you'd better have guys like Otto Graham and Bart Starr up there. Don't put Brett Favre and Peyton Manning (not yet, at least) ahead of him, and of course don't give me that Dan Marino Garbage. Please. As for Cutler, he's got elite skills but he's yet to put it together and win games. All his fault? Of course not. I still think he will win a Super Bowl and could become a great. But don't rank him in the top 5. I know, I'm letting these NFLN clowns get to me. Sorry, I'll take a deep breath and get over it. I'm going to yoga class with my wife.

DB - Switch Hitter
Gray Caldwell profiles Darrell Reid, who is the making the stunning switch from 290-lb. defensive tackle to 260-lb. linebacker. Reid is obviously on quite a diet, and has been talking to Elvis Dumervil about their position changes. Whether it's a crazy idea or a good one, I can't help but wonder how many coaches would look at a DT on film and see a LB.

CSG - Position-by-position training camp preview: Wide receivers
Frank Schwab considers the outlook for the WRs, including how a potential holdout would affect Brandon Marshall's progress in McDaniels' offense.

NFL - Then and Now: Denver Broncos
Jason Feller compares Goose Gonsoulin to Brian Dawkins. Jeez, I'm sure glad this isn't a Gonsoulin/Marlon McCree matchup.

NFL - Celebrating the 50th anniversary of the American Football League
There's a series of links here to commemorate the AFL. Of course, there are no Broncos among the HOF list, and I don't believe there's any mention of Floyd Little or Lionel Taylor.

NFLN - NFL Videos: Top 10 all-time QBs
Steve Wyche puts The Greatest Ever at #7 in his top-10 list of the QBs in history. Wow. He's got Favre, Marino and Peyton ahead of Elway. Starr, Staubach and Graham don't even make the list. In fact, the only pre-80's guy on the list was Johnny U. Puzzling.

DST - Going old school | The Daily Ticket
Set Schrock thinks the Broncos should bring back their old uni's and logo. Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DP - Armstrong: At long last, not so quoteless
According to Armstrong, Rod Smith will be co-hosting NFLTA on The Network at 5pm MST.

Star-divide

SDUT - Chargers free agent player shot in Philly suburb
UFA RB Curtis Brinkley (Syracuse) was shot while in his car. He was able to drive away, and reportedly spoke to his uncle via phone from the hospital. Yikes. Obviously, our thoughts at MHR go out to him.

SDUT - Single-game tickets on sale July 17

NFL - Browns' Stallworth released from jail after serving 24 days of sentence
Wow, that was quick. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

NFL - AFL remembered for its cast of characters
Ken Rappoport looks back at some of the more colorful coaches and players from the AFL.

SI - Michael Vick, Brett Favre drama keep NFL in news during offseason - Ross Tucker

NFP - Williamses’ case remains unresolved - Andrew Brandt

NFP - Diner morning news: Uncle Fred's theory
Lombardi looks at the Lions and Bills.

NFL - As former Viking enters Hall, current Viking paces group of top linemen
Bucky Brooks looks at today's top O-Lineman.

CBS - Positional Rankings: Cornerbacks
Pete Prisco has the Champ ranked as second-best to Asomugha despite his rough '08.

NFLN - NFL Videos: Top 5: Quarterbacks
Warren Sapp puts Jay Cutler among the top 5 QBs in the league. Wow. He may be top 10, but please. Manning, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, Warner, Brees, McNabb and Romo are all clearly better than Cutler (so far).

NFLN - NFL Videos: 32 in 32: Arizona Cardinals

NFLN - NFL Videos: 2009 Coach Feature: Ken Whisenhunt

SI - Green Bay Packer Ryan Grant credits father for NFL rise - Andrew Lawrence

NFP - Can (Derrick) Brooks find a new home? - Matt Bowen

NFP - 2009 NFP scouting series: Wake Forest - Wes Bunting

CBS - Top 32 seniors: Top heavy with the heftier prospects
Rob Rang looks at his top prospects for the '10 Draft.

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"You get outta Denvah, you get on mah list."

-Warren Sapp

“???????”
-me

No stairway... Denied!

by papigrande on Jul 11, 2009 7:36 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

When part of your argument is,

“…and I don’t know how many touchdowns,” maybe you should at least open up NFL.com and notice that Rivers had a much better year than Cutler. Then you can look at the Bear’s receiving corp’s depth chart to see if Cutler stands a chance of replicating his unknown stats.

Seriously, you work for the NFL network Warren, you could at least learn how to use their website to back up your silly arguments. Then again maybe his fingers are too thick to use keyboards. Do they make keyboards with big keys, like those phones for old people. Who knows, he might make reasonable arguments if we can send him one.

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Jul 11, 2009 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank god...

Only a few more weeks to real football and the end of this type of drivel. The all-time QB list is simply pathetic. The only real shame is that guys are being paid to come up with this crap.

by AlanC on Jul 11, 2009 8:29 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

But the real story is Reid..

Im starting to get this picture of a linebacking core that will make Tomlinson decide to retire early. I don’t think a lack of tackling or agressiveness is going to be our problem this year. I can’t wait for camp to start.

by AlanC on Jul 11, 2009 8:32 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you Alan

Thanks NYC

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 11, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with most of this

except for that Peyton Manning doesn’t deserve a spot higher. I am not saying I would give him one. I am just saying he at least deserves to be mentioned with him.

"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith

by GarretBarnes on Jul 11, 2009 9:06 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The fact that there is only one pre-80's QB

says all you need to know. A true football historian would never exclude Graham from a list like this. His run of championships was unlike anything ever seen since.

by ShawnDenver on Jul 11, 2009 9:43 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

You’re right. That’s why I’d like to see “Era Best Of” lists, something like 60s-70s, 80s-90s, Current. It would both encourage said listers to remember players like Graham in his era, and discourage era comparisons.

The game is just so different now than it was even in the 80s, that I that comparing say Graham to Manning is just pointless. Totally different game.

by AllBroncsallday on Jul 11, 2009 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our old 1980’s uniforms were distinctive, unique and among the best in the league.

Our current uniform with the weird strip on the sides and lack of orange is among the ugliest in the league.

Go back to Orange, no stupid strip and PLEASE put the D back on the helmet.

I don’t think Rodgers (Mr. terrible in the 4th quarter and career losing record) or Romo (playoff choker) are better than Cutler. But the other 6 are and maybe add Matt Ryan because he looked real good for ATL last season. That said, Jay will be a Top 5 QB within two years, they guy has just two seasons + a few games under his belt.
  

by McGeorge on Jul 11, 2009 9:56 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

If the knocks on Rodgers are his record and 4th quarter performance, then why is Cutler excused his losing record? By the way, Rodgers had a QB rating of 87.8 in the 4th quarter last year.

How can Romo’s playoff failures put him below Cutler?

Yes, Cutler may become a top 5 QB within two years. Stating as fact that he will do so is ridiculous.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 11, 2009 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree on the uniform...sort of.

I’ve never liked the home blues…and fell out of even like with the old ones. I like the orange alternate look.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 11, 2009 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

i changed the channel

as soon as sapp listed cutler at number 5

"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"

"Born like this / Into this"

by BroncoJoe311 on Jul 11, 2009 10:06 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Peyton Manning is better than John Elway

Sorry, but Peyton has better statistics than Elway, and has had a more prolific effect on the league than Elway did. Even Elway’s strength (the fourth quarter comeback) is dwarfed by Manning. Peyton has more than Elway does. Elway has one more ring, but Elway was 37 when he won that ring (and he hasn’t even the best player on his own team at the time). Manning, at 33, is better than Elway. Manning, at 37, will be considered in a higher plain if existence than Elway, andm ight have more Super Bowls.

SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.

by BigBlueShoe on Jul 11, 2009 11:08 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure you can call one better than the other

I’ve never believed in things like ranking the top X number of players at a given position in a given sport. To me, when you’re talking about great players, it’s good enough to simply give a list. After that, any attempt to rank them can easily be argued one way or the other, with no real right answer. For example, Manning may have better stats, but he has one less Super Bowl ring at the moment, and only one Super Bowl appearance. And I’m not convinced Manning would have had the success he’s had if he had played on the Bronco teams of the 80’s. Elway willed that team to three Super Bowls it shouldn’t have even been in. But that doesn’t mean I think Elway is better than Manning either. I think it’s enough to say that they both belong on a list of the greatest QBs of all time.

by ShawnDenver on Jul 11, 2009 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Elway carried 3 mediocre teams to the Super Bowl. As I alluded to above, it is possible Peyton Manning will surpass Elway. To assume that he will is not fair.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 11, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manning is a great....

…and in fact, the best QB right now in my opinion. I also agree that SBs are not a fair measurement (I would consider Marino to be one of the greats).

But Elway went to quite a few superbowls, and carried poor teams in those earlier ones. Elway didn’t have a Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley to work with, and the Orange Crush was long gone before he came on the scene. And yet Elway was getting his teams into the post season often. I’ll be surprised if Manning sees five SBs, but it doesn’t take away from him either.

I think the bottom line of the author’s opinion is that (leaving Manning aside for a moment), how does a paid writer seriously put Jay Cutler above John Elway? Marino should make the list (not above Elway), and Favre (for all of his perceived greatness) lost the greatest head to head game in SB 32 to Elway (a game in which the Packers were favorites). A few names come to mind for best historic QB, including Elway, Montana, Starr, etc. But if Manning’s career ended today, he wouldn’t be in that group.

You mention the one ring difference, but then go on to disassociate the SB with greatness. You then go on to discuss the SBs. If it is, in fact, a fair standard, consider that Manning would need to attend four more SBs in the next four years just to reach (tie) the milestone that Elway did. Elway has lost more SBs than Manning has ever even been to, let alone won.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 11, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

HT, Sapp ranked Cutler among the top 5 QBs of today.

Wyche put Manning above Elway. 2 different lists, haha.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 11, 2009 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haven't read it yet.

Thanks for clearing that up.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 11, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Elway vs Manning

Elways stats: Inducted into Hall of Fame in 2004
9-time Pro Bowler
Career 51475 (3) total yds passing
Career 226 (14) INT’s
Career 300 (5) TD’s
Career 79.9 (53) passing rating
Career 220.0 (17) total yds/game
Career 33 (149) rushing TD’s
Career 4123 (3) passes completed
Career games played 234

Manning:
Career yds passing 45628
Career yds per/game 259.3
Career rushing TD’s 17
Career INT’s 165
Career passing rating 94.7
Career passes completed 3839
Career passing TD’s 333
Career games played 176

You are absolutely right BigBlue Manning will probably surpass Elway in stats, but that still doesn’t mean he can hold a candle to him. Consider the rules for QB protection are different now then they were, and the Colts receiving corp was a lot better for Manning than they were for Elway. Kind of like comparing Cadilacs to Lincolns, which one do you want set in.

by bfree2bronc on Jul 11, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manning's 4th quarter comebacks dwarf Elway's?

Last I checked 47 is a bigger number than 35.

Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage

by TD4HOF on Jul 12, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Playoff Records

Peyton Manning 7-8 including 1-1 in AFC Championships, 1-0 in Super Bowls

John Elway 14-8 including 5-1 in AFC Championships, 2-3 in Super Bowls

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 12, 2009 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Enjoyed the write-up on Reid.

I didn’t figure he’d play at DT, and had assumed a switch to DE. The switch in mini-camps to LB threw me, but the article makes it clear why the coaches saw the potential. Very good link there!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 11, 2009 1:28 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Brady and Manning

It hurts me to see them over Elway.

Go Broncos!

by dbroncos78087 on Jul 11, 2009 2:08 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

It'll be good to see No. 80 on NFLTA today

I have a feeling he’s pulling for McDaniels to succeed. It would be awesome to see him forcefully rebut the nonsensical delusions of Jamie Dukes.

"They need a hero to tell them that the impossible can become possible..... WHEN... YOU'RE... AWESOMMMME!" -- Rhino the Hamster

by broncosmontana on Jul 11, 2009 5:07 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Warren Sapp...

add him to the list of people I can send hate mail to when denver goes 10-6 or better to win the division. what a piece of…you know. It’s hard to argue his list, but to say what he said was trashy. My guess is that he’s pissed that Denver’s O Line stomped his fat ass his during his weak decline in Oakland. Excuse my language everyone, but I’m fed up to the gills with the NFL Network taking every oppurtunity to trash Denvers good name and make Cutler out to be some kind of savior likes he’s Slingin’ Sammie Baugh.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 11, 2009 5:17 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Top Ten QBs??

I don’t know what that guy is on, but if I did that kind of thing, I would want some of it . . .

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jul 11, 2009 6:50 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The Goose

I loved the comparisons between Goose and Dawkins. This is not a knock on Dawkins, but rather a history lesson for those of you not fortunate enough to watch Goose Gonsolin play. Of course, Goose would not measure up today, but in his time he was an exciting player who dominated his position. I hope some of you will consider voting for the Goose in the Bronco 50 year team.

It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09

by firstfan on Jul 11, 2009 11:02 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Top 10 QBs

Did Adam really define what makes a great or top 10 QB? If he did I didn’t get it.

First of all, we are comparing different eras. Y.A. didn’t play a 16 game schedule. He didn’t have the benefit of sports conditioning and medicine like today. I think we confuse nostalgia with greatness. Should he be considered a great QB? Sure, but not the greatest of all time. Not to start up the greatest RB of all time thread but Jim Brown was a freak. Would he be good if he was playing today? Probably. Would anyone consider him the greatest? Questionalble. But I digress.

Many have already pointed out that John Elway went to more SBs than any other QB. He won 2 out of 5. Most QBs never never get to a SB and many of those who do never win. 5 Super Bowls! That is simply phenomenal. It has also been stated that he got there with a suspect supporting cast. We all know that a team wins a SB, not an individual. But sometimes there is an individual on a team that elevates the performance of his teammates. And on rare occasion his or her play carries a team.

I challenge anyone to give me an example of any other QB in the NFL that did that on a consistent basis ever besides John Elway. Joe Montana? No. His success resulted from playing for a franchise that had elite talent and coaching. Payton Manning? No. Same scenario. Same for most of the rest. And when I say most of the rest I include any of those who are considered good to great.

Who would I give honorable mention too on Adam’s list? Marino, Favre, Moon, and Unitas. I would include the unmentioned Fran Tarkenton.

by Manwhoknewtoolittle on Jul 12, 2009 7:58 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Fran Tarkenton is an excellent example.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 12, 2009 8:05 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yogiisms

He was too funny. Of course, you can’t credit him for saying everything he said.

by Manwhoknewtoolittle on Jul 12, 2009 9:35 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

10 Best/Greatest QBs

How would Steve Young be regarded if he had never had the good fortune to inherit the talent that Montana had. Not a HOFmer, that is for sure.

by Manwhoknewtoolittle on Jul 12, 2009 9:49 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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