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Horse Tracks 7/16/09 - Happy Birthday, Knowshon!

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DB - 50th Anniversary Team: Offense - Broncos TV
Here's a wonderful video highlighting the offensive candidates for the Broncos' all-time team on that still-tiny player. As usual, this thing could stand to be about 48 hours long...

DB - Reunited in Orange and Blue
Daniel Graham says he hasn't had any trouble adjusting back to Josh McDaniels' offense. He even says it's fun, although keep in mind DG came home to Denver in part to be a bigger part of the passing game. Of course, that hasn't really worked out; gotta wonder how he really feels!

NFP - Supplemental draft preview: Part 2
Wes Bunting thinks the Broncos should consider choosing DE Jeremy Jarmon out of Kentucky today in the Supplemental draft.

NYT - Cutler as a Bronco: It Boiled Down to Bad Decisions
KC Joyner writes more about why he wrote what he wrote. Take a deep breath, Defenders of All Things Cutler.

NFLN - NFL Videos: Top 10 Eagles of all-time
When it's BDawk's turn, of COURSE Jamie Dukes points out that it's going to be tough to watch him in a different uniform, "especially because it's the Denver Broncos." This guy is just some kind of jerk, huh?

NFLN - NFL Videos: Top 10 QBs drafted No. 1
Dukes begrudgingly admits Elway is The Greatest QB picked 1st overall, although he didn't do enough research to figure out whether Elway went to 5 or 6 Super Bowls. He says Elway "maybe deserves to be No. 1 on the list."

DP - Henry gets 3 years in drug charge - Mike Klis
Travis Henry got a light sentence from which he can get a release after 16 months with no fine, after facing a max of 10 years and $4 million.

EUR - HOTLANTA SIZZLED WITH CELEBS: A Weekend Review of Atlanta’s Hot Events
An Atlanta fundraiser attracted several familiar names, including Champ and Boss. Meanwhile, Chad Jackson was in town for his own community work.

Star-divide

NFL - Raiders' Asomugha unsatisfied with individual feats, wants team success - Vic Carucci
Nnamdi, if you had wanted to experience team success then you shouldn't have signed that contract extension!!!!

SDUT - Countdown to Camp - Kevin Acee
Acee covers the Dolts' wideouts.

SDUT - "Video of errant spirals goes viral"
So, Philip Rivers was beat by a HS QB on 3 throws. Big whoop.

NFL - Supplemental draft features some players to watch - Gil Brandt

NFL - Ravens LB Suggs beats deadline, signs six-year, $62.5 million contract

NFL - Panthers, DE Peppers can't strike new deal ahead of contract deadline
Not exactly a stunner here.

NFL - Rams safety Atogwe signs one-year, $6.34 million franchise tender

NFL - Favre says he'll let Vikings know his decision by start of training camp
What's the matter, Bus and Brett? Didn't see your names enough in the headlines lately?

NFL - Niners show Santa Clara officials their plans for new $937 million stadium

PFW - NFC South training-camp previews
These are fairly in-depth, so check out this series if you get a chance!

SI - Brett Favre, Sage Rosenfels, Tarvaris Jackson on NFL coaches film - Ross Tucker

NFP - A close look at the Suggs, Cassel deals
Matt Bowen doesn't like the Cassel deal. I'll have to disagree, as the guy was already guaranteed $14.5 million in '09. Essentially the deal saves KC the trouble/drama/stress of having to go through this again next year. I mean, even if he's terrible this year I can't imagine them wanting to get rid of him. They only guaranteed him an extra year's worth of pay, which they probably would've had to do anyway.

NFP - Strong leverage helps Suggs - Andrew Brandt

NFP - Diner morning news: Snyder's search
Lombardi looks at a few more coaching candidates for Jim Zorn's job.

NFP - Worst week ever
Ray Gustini thinks this is the most boring sports week of the year. Hello??? British Open, Ray!!!!!!!!!

NFLN - NFL Videos: 32 in 32: Philadelphia Eagles

NFLN - NFL Videos: Best fans
Jamie Dukes with more "expert" analysis. He lists the five best fan bases as basically the most popular teams in the NFL, even admitting that the Pats have only become so popular since they've won their Super Bowls.

NFP - Will they play for 35k?
Jack Bechta wonders if UFL salaries are high enough to attract players.

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Good Morning all

The news seems to be getting better in quality and quantity, which can only mean one thing. 2….more…weeks til TC.
Thanks nyc

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 16, 2009 7:20 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

KC Joyner = Wind Bags = Jamie Dukes / Cuts Both Ways

Well, at least KC Joyner called himself out on his ridiculous assertion that Grossman and Orton were essentially “thrown to the wolves in Chicago”.

Orton left Chicago with his head held high to the well wishes from fans and teammates alike.

When Grossman left Chicago, no one noticed or cared.

by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2009 7:56 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Credit to Joyner

Even if you don’t agree with his analysis, at least he uses SOME kind rationale for his opinions, and at the same time listens to reader comments, even adjusting his statements as appropriate (if you get a bunch of “Kyle who?” messages, wouldn’t you have some ammo to think that Chicago didn’t care? Now he’s getting loads of “but we like Orton!” messages, so he brings that up…I respect that).

Compare that to Jamie Dukes, who doesn’t have even basic facts (Orton at 6’4" is shorter than Cutler at 6’3"? Can’t remember how many SBs Elway went to? Won’t listen to Rod Smith on the state of the Broncos?)

Dukes comes off as bitter, un-informed, and just happy to hear himself talk. Joyner uses crazy things like facts and data to make his points.

I might just have to pick up Scientific Football, just for fun!

"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.

by Disco_Stu on Jul 16, 2009 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm beginning to wonder if...

Jamie Dukes didn’t get his ass kicked while visiting Colorado. My money is on Philo Beddoe or Vince Majestyk.

by JeffG on Jul 16, 2009 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

lmao

Philo Beddoe! Now there was a MAN.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Jul 16, 2009 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scientific Football

If you want to get into play by play evaluation of players, as opposed to gross statistics, I highly suggest Scientific Football. You may not agree with all of Joyner’s conclusions, but there is no question that it is the most thorough coverage of how players performed on a play by play basis.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 16, 2009 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

my only problem with Sc.Footb.

is that the delay in publishing makes its slightly anachronistic (word?). By the time I’m reading it, I’m more interested in whats coming as what was.

A nice reference however. My attempts to work on a “Comparative structure” rating system for the Broncos smacks heavily of Joyner’s work, at least on the surface. I don’t get too in depth with SF, so I can’t say for sure how similar the two ideas are…

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 16, 2009 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

archaic?

meaning outdated as opposed to chronologically misplaced (lit. out of time)

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 16, 2009 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is some of KC Joyner’s subjective measures of science: near picks, plays strung out, times an offensive linemen is pushed backwards. So this is scientific analysis? Some geek that never played the game telling us about near picks? I’m sorry, but I have much higher standards for what is and what is not scientific than this BS from Joyner.

Warren Sapp, one of the best players in his generation, said Cutler was a Top 5 QB and guys on this website just about lost their minds. KC Joyner says some nonsense like Cutler is the next Grossman and people here fall in love with Joyner because KC is "not MSM". No sir, KC is a thinker. He is little, yellow and different. Give me a break. They guy would sell his soul to Satan to possess 1/10th of the readership of a John Clayton. He writes some haphazard article about Cutler, Grossman and Orton and sure enough, he gets want he wants… More readership.

I don’t defend Dukes, I don’t agree with or like Dukes. But Dukes is one of the primary guys for NFL Network. You can bet your behind that he has better access to NFL players and coaches than one KC Joyner and his computer full of science. When Dukes talks, I listen. Then I think… does that make sense? With Dukes, usually not.

I suggest the same approach with Joyner. Just because he is peddling something you like to hear (i.e. Cutler is a fraud), doesn’t make it science, truth or sensible.

For the content officials out there. If BS and behind are more than you guys can stomach. Tough!

by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2009 8:44 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for replying in a respectful manner.

If that’s all it takes to make you fly off in a temper tantrum, I’ll try not to engage you as an intelligent and civilized person in the future.

"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.

by Disco_Stu on Jul 16, 2009 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously? The fact that Joyner was not himself a player makes him less of a worthy writer? Warren Sapp pretty much said he put Cutler at #5 because “he left Denver.” Yeah, that’s sound reasoning.

McG, you criticize everyone who knocks folks for seeming anti-Broncos or pro-Cutler. But you choose to pull the same stuff, just from the other side of the fence.

You’re misrepresenting Joyner’s words to make your point, too. Joyner did not ever say Cutler was the next Grossman. He did not equate the two players, in any way. He merely said Cutler would “remind” or “make Bears fans remember” Grossman. That is a far cry from saying they are similar players or have similar skill sets.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 16, 2009 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

“I don’t defend Dukes, I don’t agree with or like Dukes. But Dukes is one of the primary guys for NFL Network. You can bet your behind that he has better access to NFL players and coaches than one KC Joyner and his computer full of science.”

By that logic, the more feature is a reporter (is any venue or industry?), the higher the quality his prognostications.

I don’t really need to spend time debunking that logic, do I?

by jvill on Jul 16, 2009 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

NERDS!!!!!

McGeorge = Ogre

by cjfarls on Jul 16, 2009 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joyner has pretty good access too

he is “in the fold” at ESPN, but it should be noted that he relies purely on game tape, and he has access to ESPN’s film libraries, which includes coaches’ tape.

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 16, 2009 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got it. One way street.

“Take a deep breath, Defenders of All Things Cutler”

What is that swipe all about? Now you’re calling me out for providing some push back? Aright, don’t worry, I’ve come to understand how it works on MHR.

Joyner’s article is haphazard in its penmanship and assessment of Cutler, Grossman and Orton. It’s not science nor is it brilliant. It is little more than fast food for those that agree with him. I’ve beat it up pretty good. Not ANY different than what you guys do with Dukes, Clayton, Sapp, George, Woody Paige, etc.

by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2009 9:29 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I wrote that line because I expected some folks to just rail on Joyner. You’ve obliged. It’s funny when folks like you skewer Joyner’s notation of Bad Decision %, because you fail to consider that he rated EVERY NFL QB and found that Cutler was among the worst. He did not just randomly say “Jay Cutler makes the most poor decisions of anyone in football.”

Take a look back at what I’ve written about Joyner’s articles. I called the first one “interesting.” I did not say it was brilliant. I have no problem with folks who criticize the Broncos if their basis is in fact rather than hyperbole.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 16, 2009 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I skewer Bad Decision % because it’s a dumb stat.

I prefer judging QBs based off TDs, Yards, Ints, YPC, QB rating, W-L record, Sacks, Fumbles.

Payton Manning, Brady, Montana, Elway measure up well based on the conventional stats for MSM no nothings like me. We just eat the low lying fruit.

by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2009 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

Elway does not measure up well in those categories. Not at all. The other three guys have MUCH higher QB ratings, much better TD/INT ratios and much fewer sacks and fumbles. It’s not even close. By those numbers, Elway isn’t even in their class.

Oh, and neither is Cutler.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 16, 2009 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You prefer traditional stats and think no one should try to improve them?

Even when consistently really bad teams always rank higher on passing stats than teams with efficient and key plays, but less opportunity? So Elway was only an average QB until the 1990s?

The proof that traditional stats don’t count things like situational context, opposition, and opportunity is as simple as the fact that a 8 yrd pass on 3rd & 10 is bad, while an 8 yard pass on 3rd & 6 is good…. it is so blantantly obvious that it astounds me that someone would flat out say they prefer traditional stats…

Elways, Bradys, Mannings etc. stack up well in traditional stats… but the key is they ALSO stack up EXTREMELY well in advanced stats.

Bad decision% may have flaws and a level of subjctivity, but how is that any worse than giving a QB credit for 60+ yard TD for a simple little hitch pass where the receiver juked 7 guys out of their shoes, broke 2 tackles, etc…. or a sack that is called “in the grasp” (once again a “subjective” judgement call."

Every stat has flaws and limitations, which should indeed be pointed out, but skewering people for trying to give a better understanding of what is happening on the field is the definition of being blissful in your own ignorance.

by cjfarls on Jul 16, 2009 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks NYC

keeps head down so not to be hit by shrapnel and moves on

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Jul 16, 2009 9:36 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that's wise

Bring yer helmet and flak jacket!!

by AllBroncsallday on Jul 16, 2009 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't sweat McGeorge, guys --

He’s one of the reigning champions of the DP boards, where he routinely questions the football intelligence of anyone who doesn’t agree with him that the Broncos are in a sorry state, and that hiring McDaniels was as massive a screw-up as not trading up to get Raji, and using next year’s first to pick up Smith.

In other words, he is the reigning champion of conventional wisdom — and he will brook no outside-the-box dissent. His comment about Clayton’s audience — and what the suggests — should make this perfectly clear: access = thoroughgoing knowledge and insight.

— Whereas I tend to think access makes many of today’s “analysts” lazy when it comes to, you know, actual analysis, because what they are looking for instead, with all their access, is either the sensational or the immediately topical.

It’s sad, but you have an entire network devoted to a sport devolving into a celebration of the superficial. Dukes is a poster boy for such analysis.

by JeffG on Jul 16, 2009 9:37 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry Jeff, you can use bad language because you are one of the good guys.

I’m will swear off all MSM and just listen to contrarians and stat junkies. I will think outside the box because it is the cool thing to do. I can be unique , I promise.

Dang you Peter King, Clayton, NFL Network, Dang you ESPN, Scott Wright, Dave Krieger. You have filled my head with MSM lies. You are all lazy, good for nothing Bronco haters.

The Coach will expose you all in short order.

Dukes got beat up because he was coming to Denver to change Cutler’s diapers. LOL!

So can I join your team now?

by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2009 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where was the bad language in JeffG's post?

You keep claiming to be singled out unfairly for bad language b/c of your stance towards McD, yet I haven’t seen that type of language from anyone but you. Are you truely using this as an example of someone using bad language and not being called out for it?

Perhaps you are being singled out b/c you keep ignoring that rule.

People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.

by c_style on Jul 16, 2009 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Most Important Thing...

Is that Joyner quoted my comment:

    "After Cutler throws his third end-zone INT in a must win game, then sulks by himself on the bench, and after the game blames his receivers for not catching the bullets thrown three yards over their heads…

    …then Bears fans will understand what it’s like to have been a Broncos fan the past 3 years." Jvill

I’m a star!

/snark

by jvill on Jul 16, 2009 10:47 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Nicely Done!!

As I was reading the column, I couldn’t put 2 and 2 together. My apologies, jvill.

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 16, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha...

No worries. It’s fun to be completely vain (once in a while)… :)

by jvill on Jul 16, 2009 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, NYC.

"Who speaks for Charlie?"

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 16, 2009 11:10 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

This is pot stirring

But I couldn’t help myself. McGeorge reminds me of this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc

Come on dude, seriously? Nobody can say anything bad about Cutler without you flipping out? If you love him that much and think he is that infallible then just go buy 7 #6 jersey’s, one for every day of the week, and go praise him.

Nobody is perfect, every player can improve, but freaking out every time someone questions Cutler is just silly. Not that I mind, your zaniness just makes me laugh.

"No matter how far a Jackass travels it will never come back a horse"

by SpaceCowboyInLG on Jul 16, 2009 12:02 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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