Do Denver's SB wins deserve asterisks?
On Bleacher Report, someone wrote an article about how the Pats don't deserve to be considered the team of the decade because of Spygate. But now, he is attacking the Broncos, as well as other teams:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/210359-the-astrisk-more-teams-than-the-patriots-deserve-it
The guy who wrote the article says that he thought it was just an accounting error, but he says that he realizes it simply wasn't because of the deferred payments to Elway and Davis for 29 Million dollars. Interesting.
He also goes on to question the validity of other teams, like the 90's Cowboys, and George Halas's Bear teams.
Enjoy!!!
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+ infinity
All you get from drafting the "best player available" is a team full of good football players.
by orangeblood on Jul 2, 2009 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO, NO, NO
Wow, a salary cap violation is the reason our players were so freakin good. Hey, the secret to our success is out. This guy is a moron.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Jul 2, 2009 11:17 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
This article is more balanced
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html
In summary it ackowledges (as does the NFL spokesman more importantly) that the accounting issues had nothing to do with gaining a competitive advantage and was instead about payments on the stadium.
Henderson said in the statement. “These agreements were plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos’ need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver.”
So in short no – our wins should have no asterix next to them. I would advise anyone faced with Fader fans accusing us of cheating to send them that article.
Hope that helps.
by British Bronco on Jul 2, 2009 11:35 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
No Extra Players
We did not gain any additional starters. Bowlen just found a way to fund the new stadium. Turns out that it was the wrong thing to do and we lost a 3rd round pick in 2005 and Bowlen had to pay $950,000 in fines. In short, the team did not gain any competitive advantage.
In short, no asterisk.
by Endzone on Jul 2, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
cap impact
There was an impact to the cap but it’s hard to say how much. Converting a roster bonus into guaranteed money changes how it’s treated under the cap but that doesn’t mean the Broncos wouldn’t have still been under.
It doesn’t take much to rework contracts in order move the cap hit, and we’ve seen several examples of this during this offseason. And it’s not unusual to defer payment, which — ODDLY (or not) — was a problem with Cutler’s contract! Cutler ‘earned’ a lot of money last year but wasn’t going to be paid much of it until later!
Stokley’s return was ensured Feb. 27, in the hours before the opening of NFL free agency, when the Broncos and Stokley agreed to roll his $500,000 unguaranteed roster bonus into his 2009 salary. Then they agreed to guarantee $560,000 of his $1.41 million salary for this season. So Stokley is back, despite the crowd at receiver.
The difference in Stokley’s case wasn’t dollars but guaranteed dollars, which is certainly important to players who have the misfortune of being released.
What I know based on talking to some of my former Broncos colleagues is that, well before this drama erupted, Cook and Cutler wanted to renegotiate the quarterback’s six-year contract, which has three years left. The current deal included $15 million in guaranteed payments. Cutler was paid a $1.275 million roster bonus in 2006 and a $7.9 million option bonus in 2007. But his base salaries are, by Pro Bowl-quarterback standards, meager, and a $12 million performance bonus isn’t due until 2011. … .
Ted Sundquist, the Broncos’ general manager when I was with the team, told me at the time that, because of the large lump-sum, back-end payout, the contract would probably be restructured before it expires. He said Bus Cook also expected that to happen.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 2, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
what madness
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 2, 2009 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just posted that to the Bleacher report.
I would suggest some other fans go over there and fight our corner. Keep it civil mind – it seems like a fairly level headed site and community.
by British Bronco on Jul 2, 2009 11:56 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I just posted a response to the article
And included this quote from Gary Zimmerman’s website:
The Broncos had to put up around $100 million toward the new stadium, and that was a struggle for the franchise. They basically went into The Bank of Elway and Davis and took out a loan. They weren’t trying to squeeze cap room for their championship run. By all accounts, that money still counted against the cap. They weren’t trying to cheat the sport itself.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by BShrout on Jul 2, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was a seperate issue
And it’s probably what pissed off Al D. Elway was willing to rework his contract, which was probably unlike some of the more self-centered Raiders that Al was dealing with. I don’t think Elway had any cash flow problems at that point, and he may — if memory serves me — have been an ‘auto baron’ by then.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 2, 2009 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget about the Nerf Vortex endorsement!
I remember getting a Vortex ball with Elway on the box that was awesome… Supposedly could throw it over 100 yard!
by CombatChuk on Jul 2, 2009 8:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
What they don't realize is.
The deferred payments still counted against the cap, The player just agreed not to be “paid” at the current time, instead being paid later w/ interest on his paycheck. And of course the signing/roster bonus being basically gaurenteed, was recorded the following year instead of the current year as a gaurenteed bonus would of been, or something lieke that.
Basically just a lot of investigation because someone COUGH Al Davis COUCH complained, moaned, etc untill the leage checked into every single thing the broncos had done in the 90s. Every team ever investigated like that would have stuff founf that was a “violation”.
Quit drinking the Kool-Aid and start drinking the good stuff, and everything is always alright.
by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Jul 2, 2009 12:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they changed the cap's accounting rules after that
I did have an effect on the cap but there are other ways to legally circumvent the cap that don’t effect the cap. That’s why they were penalized so much, even though the effect was negligible. The only effect their undeclared financial transactions had was to change the status of monies paid. It’s the type of offense that an account would get excited about but not a football fan (under normal circumstances).
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 2, 2009 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I[t] did have an effect
typo
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 2, 2009 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garbage Journalism.
This is type of the media, media types and media hopefuls: be contraversial, self-righteous and loud. I won’t dignify that garbage with a view or a comment. As British Bronco linked above, this myth has been dispelled before.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
by ejruiz on Jul 2, 2009 12:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Remember too
that this was a fan post, not a MSM journalist
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by BShrout on Jul 2, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may want to read the post and replies to "shanahan a cheater?"
It was posted by dabriza on Jun 17, 2008 12:05 PM MDT 52 comments
The Colts fan Big Blue Shoe started talking smack and got a Smackdown about the subject.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
by wyoeng on Jul 2, 2009 12:49 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I remember that.
It was right when I joined, and I remember that HT absolutely trashed BBS. It was a slaughter. I think this Al Pacino quote sums it up nicely:
And I have seen, boys like these, younger than these, their arms torn out, their legs ripped off. But there is nothin’ like the sight of an amputated spirit. There is no prosthetic for that. You think you’re merely sending this splendid foot-soldier back home to Oregon with his tail between his legs, but I say “you are executing his soul!”
^That is what HT did to BBS that day^
In all seriousness, I wish I could add more to the conversation. I think HT has a much better understanding of the situation than I do, and I’m kind of curious as to exactly what went down. If I remember right, we were accused of withholding information that didn’t exactly break any rules or something.
No stairway... Denied!
by papigrande on Jul 2, 2009 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah he just eviscerated BBS that day
It was classic.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Jul 3, 2009 7:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
British, for posting on there. That guy didn’t understand what was going on.
The interesting thing in that article was about the Cowboys. Jerry Jones said that they basically were doing the same thing the Pats were doing. I don’t think that it helped them that much, however. The Bills were overmatched in those 2 losses, and O’Donnell handed them the third one.
by PABroncofan on Jul 2, 2009 2:35 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, every team was playing by these rules and the Broncos weren't the only ones
that had issues. The league changed some of the rules to prevent these issues, but don’t blame the Broncos for looking hard into the whole accounting, every team that wanted to win was doing similar things. It is the stingy owners (Raiders, Steelers, Cardinals) that were bitching about it.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 2, 2009 10:52 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Accounting is a word which people give a lot of meanings to
Some people think that an accountant is a person who does taxes, for example, and I have very little to do with taxes for my company. We have a corporate tax department, as most big companies do, and they deal with all that. In the strictest sense, accounting is the practice of determining and presenting your most accurate financial position, either at a point in time, or over a period of time. In other words, it’s getting to what your position looks like on paper. It is related to cash flow, but only in a tangential way. If you think of a business taking depreciation expense on a piece of equipment, no cash was expended to match that expense. It’s something that happened from an accounting perspective, but not a treasury perspective.
Doing salary cap math is a very specialized form of accounting, in that you have specifically delineated accounting rules to follow, and there is a periodicity concern (meaning the league year.) It’s not about Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP,) but it is still an accounting exercise.
This situation with the Broncos in the 90s was a treasury issue, not an accounting issue. It centered on timing of cash inflows and outflows, at a time when there was a substantial amount of outflow activity, in the manner of capital expenditures on the new stadium. It actually had nothing at all to do with the salary cap. It had to do with the way cash was disbursed from the organization to the players, and the deferrals the players took were too team-friendly, per the letter of the CBA law. The Broncos organization had a good relationship with its players, and they agreed to take the deferrals, but those provisions of the CBA were intended to protect players from bad owners.
The CBA was violated, but the salary cap was not. Of course, the MSM gets this wrong, because accounting can be a little complicated to people who aren’t trained in it. Add to that the fact that the MSM gets many, many simple things wrong, and it’s expected. The “Broncos cheated” meme somehow continues, through people like BBS, who despite his education/evisceration on this from HT, no doubt still believes he has it right. It’s sort of like how so many people think that Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet. Only problem is, he never said that. He said he “took the initiative in creating the internet,” which is 100% true.
“In all fairness, it’s something Gore had worked on a long time. Gore is not the Father of the Internet, but in all fairness, Gore is the person who, in the Congress, most systematically worked to make sure that we got to an Internet, and the truth is — and I worked with him starting in 1978 when I got [to Congress], we were both part of a “futures group” — the fact is, in the Clinton administration, the world we had talked about in the ‘80s began to actually happen." – Newt Gingrich (who doesn’t often come to the aid of slandered Democrats)
Just an example of how one little distinction changes the whole meaning of the story. Gore has had that urban legend dog him for a decade now, and it’s completely wrong. The Broncos did not benefit on the field from their violations of the CBA, but it’s sufficiently nuanced enough of a distinction to leave room for morons to claim that they did. Just pat them on the head, and let them go on their merry, idiotic ways.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Jul 3, 2009 7:44 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs

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