2009 Denver Broncos - Breaking Down the Roster - The Receivers
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 11:30 AM MDT
in 2009 Season Preview
118 comments
What happens to
The key is that "good" in depth beats "excellence" at the top at the receiver positions. We'll explore this further while sorting out the receivers
photo courtesy of the NFL
Brandon Marshall - WR #15
Age - 25
Style - Possession; excellent run blocker
Contract highlights - (hat tip to Rotoworld) 2009: $2.198 million, 2010: Free Agent
MHR-U code name - "BM" (The jury is out on if this means "Batman" or "Bowel Movement")
Brandon Marshall is at once both a great and terrible player.
On the plus side:
- Can out-muscle any defensive back in the NFL. This means he can run over a DB for yards after a catch, and also that he is an excellent run-blocker.
- Is not afraid of physical contact. Will fight for the ball.
- Has excellent moves in tight quarters.
- While not a speedster, he still has more "football" speed than many possession receivers.
- An arm injury may have caused several drops in '08, but he continues to heal.
The negatives are equally impressive:
- Legal troubles off the field are always a problem with the potential to face suspensions.
- Shows flashes of stupidity (to name one: a TD celebration that was political in nature and was narrowly averted by wiser teammates).
- Attitude - "holdout"
- Recent hip surgery.
If
For these reasons,
For now, let's place
Analysis -
photo courtesy of the NFL
Eddie Royal - WR #19
Age - 23
Style - Speed; superhuman agility
Contract highlights - (hat tip to Rotoworld) 7/24/2008: Signed a four-year, $3.955 million contract. The deal contains $2.4 million guaranteed, including a $1.55 million signing bonus. 2009: $385,000, 2010: $470,000, 2011: $555,000, 2012: Free Agent
MHR-U codename: "Royal with Cheese" (With affection, from the movie "Pulp Fiction")
Royal has it all. High talent, great attitude, good character, team focused. I pick him to be the future of the Broncos.
Positives:
- Can turn on a dime. Few CBs in the league can stick with him on a route when he changes direction. (May have destroyed CB DeAngelo Hall's career in the first Denver/Oakland matchup in 2008 by making Hall look less-than-average in Royal's rookie debut).
- Quickness, speed, and the ability to create distance after making a change of direction.
- Reliable hands.
- Exhibits great character on and off the field. Plays where he helps the team (dropped from #1 to #2 to make way for
Negatives:
- Royal was considered a prototypical slot receiver coming out of college. When he hit the pros, he may have been labeled a #2 receiver because he played behind
Royal is rapidly passing
Royal can give
As Royal gains experience, his route running will improve. Combined with his his agility, it is reasonable to assume that CBs won't be able to cover him effectively as he ages.
Analysis - If
photo courtesy of the NFL
Brandon Stokley - Slot Receiver #14
Age - 33
Style - Possession; tough
Contract highlights - (hat tip to Rotoworld) 12/7/2007: Signed a three-year, $10.1 million contract extension through 2010. The deal included a $5 million signing bonus. 2009: $900,000 (+ $560,000 "signing bonus"), 2010: $1.4 million, 2011: Free Agent
MHR code name - "The Slot Machine"
A veteran that may well be the best slot receiver in football today.
Advantages:
- Solid hands.
- Is not afraid to take a hit when going for passes over the middle.
- Can muscle his way through traffic to fight for the ball.
- Runs routes better than most slot receivers.
- A veteran who has played the position for years, he knows all of the tactics involved when reading the coverage arrayed against him.
Negatives:
- Is a concussion risk.
- A threat for other injuries (history - Achilles)
- It is unknown when Stokley will start to decline due to age.
Some would call him the top slot receiver in the NFL. He earned his reputation playing alongside Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne in Peyton Manning's amazing Colts passing game. He catches what comes his way, and relies on his strength and power when facing safeties and LBs in the middle of the field. Sacrifices himself (perhaps too much) to make any catch. As a sly veteran, he can fool most nickelbacks (many of whom are younger players trying to work their way up depth charts).
Fans were amazed when a string of injuries forced Stokley to step up to the #1 spot briefly and held his own very well in 2007. The only real knocks on Stokley are his age and injury history. He's stayed healthy for the most part with
Analysis - If
Jabar Gaffney - WR #10
Age - 28
Style - Possession; effective run blocker
Contract highlights - (hat tip to Rotoworld) 2/27/2009: Signed a four-year, $10 million contract. The deal includes $3 million guaranteed. 2009-2012: Under Contract, 2013: Free Agent
MHR-U Code name - "Gom Jabbar"
Jabar has been practicing at the #2 WR position opposite Eddie Royal (in
Advantages:
- Good hands
- Good run blocker
- Can use an initial burst of speed to gain separation on short routes
- Has played in the NE system
Negatives:
- Doesn't sustain speed after his initial burst
Jabar will make the team, so that's out of the way. The fascination with Jabar's situation should be that he may end up as high as #2 or as low as #4 on the depth chart. He's been practicing at #2 in camp, but if
If Gaffney plays at #2, he'll be the short-to-medium range option while Royal stretches the field north/south. With safeties pulled long strong side and short weak side, TEs and slots would benefit from any holes created short on the strong side (particularly routes that would carry them past a free safety playing too close on Gaffney).
Got that? We might have to throw it all out. Fifth-round pick Kenny McKinley doesn't expect to start at #5 on the depth chart, and neither does Chad Jackson.
Analysis - Gaffney will make the team. The big question is how high or low he ends up being on the depth chart.
Kenny McKinley - WR #11
Age - 22 (ROOKIE)
Style - Well-rounded
Contract highlights - Not yet signed at the time if this writing.
MHR-U Code name - If he works out, perhaps "McDaddy" (as in Mac Daddy). If he bombs, perhaps "They killed Kenny!" (as in
A few tidbits (gleaned from BroncoBear's definitive work on our receivers): Steve Spurrier calls him the best WR he ever coached. Kenny broke Sterling Sharpe's college records for yards gained and receptions. His number is one of only five retired by USC (South
Advantages:
- Speed
- Route running
- Hands
- Agility and leaping ability
- Elusiveness
Disadvantages:
- His frame may dictate that he could be an injury risk at the pro level
- Will have a hard time against press coverage
- Can be out-muscled fighting in heavy traffic
This kid may be a shock to the NFL. Remember that the so-called "experts" (including me), thought Royal would be relegated to the slot position. Well, Kenny is a prototype slot receiver too, but his abilities are immense. The competition for slot is intense (see Stokley and Gaffney), so once again the presence or absence of
Kenny is well rounded. Blessed with good hands, speed, agility, and character, he can "do it all". His major drawback is his light frame, which limits his "physicality" in traffic and might make him an injury threat. Trainers will do what they can to put together a routine for him to become limber while building up protective muscle. As with other slight players, Kenny may prove the experts wrong. (USC's opponents are still smarting).
Analysis - How does this kid not make the cut? The only problem may be whether or not he starts. His future looks bright.
photo courtesy of the NFL
Age - 24
Style - Speedy, but tough.
Contract highlights - 2009: $535,000, 2010: Free Agent
MHR-U code name - If he doesn't make the cut, "Hanging Chad". If he plays well, "Action Jackson"
The first thing that comes to mind is that
Advantages -
- Can accelerate past most CBs and stay in high gear.
- Catches passes without breaking stride.
- Excellent agility, and elusive.
- Not afraid to catch in heavy traffic. Will fight for the ball.
- Another player with a NE history.
Disadvantages -
- Significant injury history
- Does not run crisp routes
- While he jumps and extends well for balls, he uses poor mechanics to catch balls "on the numbers"
- Hasn't played up to his potential yet, and could be a prospect with a limited window to achieve.
Perhaps with good coaching, this kid can break through whatever is holding him back. He has potential to be a scary, deep-field threat. But the prime focus of any WR is to stay on the field and catch balls.
Despite his speed and deep-threat prowess, he plays very well in short ranges (ala NE). While he is agile going for the ball and eluding tacklers, he isn't disciplined on his routes. His toughness is solid, as he fights for the ball by jumping or diving, and will catch a ball that requires some acrobatics. He is agile enough to evade tacklers one-on-one, and tough enough to plow through some tackles in other instances.
Oddly, while his athleticism allows him stretch for catches (vertical and horizontal), he has a tough time catching the passes that most players love; "on the numbers". If he can stay injury free, and work on inside catches, he may have a turnaround in the future. At the rate he's going, he's on the bubble.
Analysis - The first five players on the list will make the roster.
The Rest
photo courtesy of the NFL
Brandon Lloyd is a 27-year-old receiver. His agility allows him to out-jump anybody (a great sideline trait), and he has a reputation for sacrificing his body to make great catches in midair. Unfortunately, he isn't fearless in traffic and avoids hits, and gets injured here and there. He has shown some flashes of potential in the past (good years in '04 and '05, as well as a deeper maturity in '06 and '07). He will be in the mix with
Beyond Lloyd, the names get a little fuzzier.
photo courtesy of the NFL
There's Matt Willis, a 25-year-old signed from and to the Raven's practice squad several times dating back to May 4th of '07 (until
photo courtesy of Wikimedia
There's also 28-year-old C.J. Jones. Our own Guru has the most current information on Jones here.
Overall Analysis
Let's say
- Royal
Take your pick on how many receivers we take. The range is probably a bare minimum of six.
Without
- Royal
- Gaffney
- Stokley
- McKinley
- Lloyd
- Willis
- Jones
Without
In both charts, McKinley is the lowest player I would call a lock to make the cut.
In both charts, we have players at the #4 position that are good matchups against #4 CBs, and a great slot. I think Gaffney holds his own at #2, while Royal excels at #2. At #1,
If
Orton will have everything he needs to do well, and his more conservative approach (read "accuracy instead of forcing") should serve him well.
I'll take depth and good players over excellence at one or two spots any day. It works for Brady, it worked for Cassel, and it should work for us.
All the best,
HT
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All these receivers have numbers in the teens...
Which is why I’m rooting for only Brandon Lloyd to make the team. All the other guys can go to the practice squad until they get real numbers. Yes, even Eddie.
No stairway... Denied!
by papigrande on Jul 22, 2009 11:46 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
According to Algebra 2...
10, 11, 14, 15, 16, and 19 are all REAL numbers. I would take the younger practice squad guys over Brandon Lloyd anyday. We’ve got plenty of “now” talent that’s ready to play. We need young recievers to build up in this system, not aging vets.
Besides… 80, 87, and 84 should have had a 15 year hold on them ever since 1998. (Some people might not think so on McCaffery’s number, but he was one of my favorites. He wore smaller pads than Elam, it was hilarious. Eddie Mac FTW)
And I say get rid of Brandon, we need the consistancy more than we need his “spot-talent”.
It's Orange Crush time. And no I am NOT talking about the soft-drink.
Which I beg the question: "Can liquid really be... soft?"
3 TE Set = 3 losses or less.
Do it MickeyD... 13-3!!
by USMCWall on Jul 22, 2009 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely on McCaffery
A guy who did everything in his power to better himself. Not a HOF talent, but definitely one of the very best for heart and will and guts.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Jul 22, 2009 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops, too many italics
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Jul 22, 2009 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting that you mention Eddie Mac...
isn’t he one of the guys that Shanny brought with him from San Fran in 95? And weren’t people in Denver pretty pissed about him getting a starting job? Just sayin, history tends to repeat itself and we all know how Eddie Mac worked out for us.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Jul 22, 2009 10:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love this idea
80, 84 and 87 should not be worn for quite awhile
by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 23, 2009 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
McKinley
is eligible for the Practice Squad, so that could make a difference in the Cuts. That might give him a little time to bulk up.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 11:56 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t expect McDaniels in his first year to cut any of his draft picks. That rarely happens.
"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith
by GarretBarnes on Jul 22, 2009 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
wouldn't make sense
They acquired McKinley by trading for his draft rights — presumably at McDaniels’ behest or with his blessing — so it’s hard to see the logic in their cutting him. I think they think he’s worth more than the typical 5th round pick.
I agree, GB, as far as cutting any of this year’s picks (or not many), although I think it’s less of a general principle than a statement about this draft and the lack of depth on our roster.
TRADE TERMS FOR MCKINLEY PICK
Broncos receive:
" 2009 fifth-round pick (No. 141):
WR Kenny McKinley
Ravens receive:
" 2009 fifth-round pick (No. 149):
TE Davon Drew
" 2009 sixth-round pick (No. 185):
RB Cedric Peerman
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 23, 2009 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great article, but... seemed a little anti-Marshall and pro-Royal
May it’s just be me, but this breakdown seemed to silently bash Marshall every chance it got. Now, I’m not sticking up for his antics, but of course Marshall is the #1 receiver, despite subtle hints to the contrary. And yes, it was painfully obvious, even before getting to Royal’s section, that you, “pick him to be the future of the Broncos”.
Do you really think there’s even an outside chance of Marshall being the #2 receiver – this year, behind Royal? I mean sure, everything is possible in some way (as a punishment or due to hip complications perhaps), but really? And yes, Eddie Royal is fantastic, on and off the field, but saying he, “Plays where he helps the team (dropped from #1 to #2 to make way for Marshall after the latter’s suspension)”, is at least somewhat of a shinny-rainbowesque way of saying ‘he filled in as the #1 receiver for a game while the #1 receiver was out’.
Hope this doesn’t sound too negative, because I enjoyed the article, as always… just thought it seemed subjective and a little bias against the obvious #1 receiver (assuming, like you, he plays).
by elvisalex on Jul 22, 2009 12:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
you make good points elvisalex
I will defer to HT’s superior knowledge of football, but I think I’m a bigger fan of Brandon “The Beast” Marshall than HT. He catches anything in his area and punishes defenders who get in his way. My perception is that he consistently DEMANDS double teams, and often beats them. I expect that with solid characters around him, BM will have the support he needs to stay focused and be the game changer I see in him.
I do, however, appreciate the point that without BM, the receiving corps is OK. Oh yeah, I love Royal too and hope he gets to spend his whole career with the Broncos.
by unkown on Jul 22, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my reply to elvisalex below...
…I conceed that Marshall is the better receiver. However, given several antics by Marshall, I just don’t know how much faith we can put in a player that admits he wants to leave the team. Even if he stays, suspensions, jail, and self inflicted injuries (as well as a seperate, current injury) makes him difficult to assess as a presence on game days.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe nyc was "bashing" Marshall, just being realistic in nature.
Marshall’s issues of off field are a cause for great concern, seeing that he may after the court hearing be suspended once again. His clamoring for a trade can not be dismissed either, for as a disgruntled player might not play up to his potential, not saying that he would because that would only hurt his chances of a huge contract down the road. The Broncos have the leverage on him at this time, and it would behove him to humble himself and get with the program. That’s the seriousness of his nature concerning him being our #1 receiver.
by bfree2bronc on Jul 22, 2009 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me, Hoosierteacher is what I meant, sorry nyc.
by bfree2bronc on Jul 22, 2009 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor NYC!
I stuck up for Bear yesterday, only to realize that I was sticking up for NYC. The guy just can’t catch a break!
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks anyway NYC.......Lol
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's NYC??
Lol, just kidding!!!! But really, you guys all post such great material… You’re like a 3-Headed, Raider-slaying, Chief-stomping Dragon!
…. P. S. The Dolts are an exciting matchup, but they’re not getting to the big game with Norv Turner behind the wheel. Sorry San Diego; better stick to surfing until they fire that mis-hire.
It's Orange Crush time. And no I am NOT talking about the soft-drink.
Which I beg the question: "Can liquid really be... soft?"
3 TE Set = 3 losses or less.
Do it MickeyD... 13-3!!
by USMCWall on Jul 22, 2009 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No worries, guys...
Some people here incorrectly assign opinions to me all the time!! Ba dump ching…
by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 23, 2009 7:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One good explanation....
..is that when folks see a good article, they think “NYC”.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 6:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have no disagreement there.
Marshall has off-field issues that could affect his playing time; of course that topic should be broached. But if this article then assumes that Marshall is on the field in Orange & Blue, which it clearly does, then for these purposes, don’t the other issues then become sort of moot?
This article is Breaking Down the Roster – The Receivers. It’s a projected depth chart. It currently projects Marshall to be playing for Denver, but then hedges its bet by forecasting problems in the future. We’re all drunk with knowledge and opinions of the Marshall situation, but that’s not what this article is about. Of course these things should be taken into account, but the off field issues were not the context the author used with statements like, “He (Marshall) is capable of playing at #1, but he might really be falling to the #2 spot behind Royal”. That clearly seems to imply that Marshall’s skills are on decline to Royal’s. If so, why?
And if not, just come out and say ’Marshall’s a woman-beating, perpetual suspension risk, who has already asked to be traded and wants more money… but, he’s certainly our #1 skilled receiver and will remain at the top of the depth chart until something changes’.
by elvisalex on Jul 22, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you.
In breaking down the roster, I think it is fair to point out certain issues. I respect disagreement on that point.
In my mind, a reader should know that Marshall is the top receiver on the team. But perhaps the reader should also know that even if Marshall is on the roster in week one, there is always a risk of suspension, arrest, injury, or an end to play because the player is disgruntled and demands a trade. I would treat any elite player the same way. For example, if Terell Owens came to Denver, it might be fair for me to point out that there is elite talent, but some major behavioral issues as well.
As to why he might be falling to #2, I’ll offer two explanations. First, I list him as #1 at the end of the article. However, because of dependability issues, it is hard to consider him our long term #1 WR. (Marshall himself states he wants to be off the team completely). Second, while I doubt he gets bumped down (for reasons I gave in the article), his recent injury and his failure to participate in learning the new playbook should give Royal a leg up. Marshall may be used to getting the ball on most plays, but he hasn’t been taking part in the offseason camps so far learning about his new role, and that’s just another self inflicted wound.
I respect the disagreement on how I approached the story, and I think that what you have to write about the story is valid. However, I chose to address the issues with Marshall because (in part) his antics prevent us from even being sure he will be a Bronco this year. Even if he is, his frequent problems lend doubt as to how much playing time we can depend on. Royal’s selfless, team oriented behavior is a factor in appraising his future, and I just think his future is brighter. In my own opinon, Royal’s character trumps Marshall’s abilities because we can count on Royal.
… but, he’s certainly our #1 skilled receiver and will remain at the top of the depth chart until something changes’.
Unfortunately, there can be no certainty with Marshall. Indeed, until Marshall changes his mind (“I don’t want to play in Denver”), we can never know what is next. While he’s on the team, he’ll play at #1. But considering all of the factors involved, I would call Royal our more dependable receiver. Royal has been to this year’s training, is learning the new system and playbook, is injury free, has no legal issues pending, and no suspensions pending. While Marshall sits out, Royal builds a rapport with the new QB. In my mind, that counts for something. If the situation wasn’t so fragile, I dare say it would count for something with most coaching staffs too.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for your time!
I understand where you’re coming from and appreciate the respectful dialogue.
by elvisalex on Jul 22, 2009 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No reason for me to get disrespectful.
You have been respectful, and I think your points are all completely fair. I chose to write the story a different way, but it doesn’t take away from my concerns about Marshall’s issues or your assesment that Marshall is the better receiver.
The great thing about MHR is that folks can disagree on a point, and still have class in the way they express it. I’ll take a hundred of your disagreements any day over spending one minute reading the message boards of most sports media.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jul 22, 2009 7:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I love both of them but Royal isn’t close to being #1. He’s great and I look forward to his growth, but he has a lot to learn still.
(Man he made Hall look like a fool though…Oakland was so not ready for him last year)
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2009 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you make a fair observation.
If it comes across that I showed some favoritism towards Royal over Marshall, it is because I probably did.
If we were to rate the receivers on where they belong, I agree that Marshall gets the #2 spot over Royal. Indeed, I ranked them that way at the end of the article. But Marshall drops his value as a team member with his recent hip injury, his recent holdout, and his ongoing legal issues. While there is no reason to believe that Royal isn’t just going to keep getting better and better, we never know if Marshall is going to be a permanent fixure with the team (because of injury, jail, suspension, or a move to another team). The sad part is, other than frequent injuries (self inflicted arm, and unfortunate knee), we just can’t count on Marshall not to remove himself from the team through his own chosen behaviors.
For those reasons, I am confident that Royal has a future with the team, and will improve with age. When it comes to Marshall (who has openly declared that he wants out of Denver) we just can’t know. If I take Marshall at his own word, it is hard to speculate on a roster that includes him down the road.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt we have a #1 WR
Moss is/was considered the #1 WR in NE but Welker had more yards and more receptions.
I think the same thing might happen with royal and marshall
by trumanj on Jul 23, 2009 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
But #2 receivers can get better stats for many reasons. There were several years in our program where we had two excellent receivers, and (of course) the #1 CB on the other team gets paired with our #1 receiver. If the other team has a drop off from #1 to #2 CBs, our so-called #2 WR would look magnificent.
The truth of the matter is that there really isn’t a clear cut #1 WR much of the time. Take Marshall and Royal… We can go in circles debating who is better overall. But in truth, both receivers can’t be compared in some senses. Both play completely different styles (Royal can turn on a dime and break away from his coverage, while Marshall runs his coverage over).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 6:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree with the Jackson assessment
He has not shown he can play with any functional speed, his route running is poor, and I have yet to see him be able to catch the ball in stride, although I would figure every WR should be able to do that. Anyways, good write up, but I do think that losing BM would put a lot more pressure on the group and though I like Eddie, I am not sure he is ready just yet to be the number one option. I think we saw last season how he wore down at the end of the year, and forcing him to go up against the number one CB every game may be a tough task right now, next year I think that is a more viable option. But if we lose BM, I have serious doubts on how effective the passing game can be.
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by Broncoman on Jul 22, 2009 12:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We'll have to disagree on Jackson's pros and cons.
But Royal has played well in each match-up he has had. While folks recall the Oakland game last year, it is worth remembering that Royal had to play at #1 in several games. While I believe that Marshall is the better receiver overall, Royal is only a year removed from college and already has proven himself at both #1 and #2 spots. Moreover, he is dependable and not going anywhere soon. Marshall, we just don’t know.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gushing, I'm really not, but . . .
We do have a terrific group of writers on this board, and you’re not exception, HT. I’ve learned a lot from you.
Having said that, I have to make the side comment that I HATE the moniker “Royal with Cheese.” Makes him sound like a hamburger sandwich, movie notwithstanding. And it says nothing about what he does or is all about. “FAST EDDIE ROYAL” . . . now, that says something.
Oh well, that’s minor and petty, I know. 
Disgusted as I have been with Marshall over his off-field antics, I do not believe Royal would overtake him as the #1 if Marshall plays. Marshall is a truly rare talent who is a mismatch for anybody the opponent could put on him, and his YAC potential is just sick ( but then, I described Royal in his own right, didn’t I?). At any rate, it is going to be exciting to see T.O. and Steve Smith on the same field, if you get my drift.
I believe a player to watch is Lloyd. Inconsistent as he has been in his career, he has flashed unbelievable talent at times. If he can get that harnessed, I don’t know how he can be kept off the squad, and McDaniel’s group would be just the place to do it.
There is one thing I notice among this bunch: speed galore. Royal, McKinney, Jackson . . . and, even though he is not known for blazing speed, I have yet to see Marshall really get caught from behind by someone who does not have an angle on him.
I also believe that, in Orton, the Broncos have the QB tailor made for the use of all the receivers. The guy knows how to check down. I know he got somewhat a bad reputation for that with some, donning the moniker “Check Down Charlie,” but I look at it as a strength. He won’t force a ball. If the deep guy is open, Orton will throw it to him: He demonstrated that especially with Hester and Greg Olsen several times. But Chicago’s receivers often had trouble getting open. Not that Denver’s receivers have the same problem, but Orton is a good decision-maker who can assess where a pass can be most productive.
I’ll tell ya, I’m stoked to see this offense this year. Just watch them, John Clayton, and eat your crow . . .
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
by AZDynamics on Jul 22, 2009 12:12 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with everything you wrote, including:
-Royal With Cheese…hate it, always have
-Lloyd played well for Bears last year
-John Clayton is my least favorite sportswriter or personality around, even worse than Jamie Dukes.
by studbucket on Jul 22, 2009 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Nowhere near as bad as Dukes.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dukes is Dumber
But what gets me is the perceived football intelligence that Clayton has. Dukes has little to no credibility among fans or the industry, Clayton is supposed to be an expert and is cited by others, but he’s horrible.
They are both hacks, but Dukes could be gone because he hasn’t build up “tenure”, while Clayton is like a crappy college professor who can do anything now that he is tenured, he just pisses me off.
by studbucket on Jul 22, 2009 7:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gosh Batman, when you put it like THAT...
I get your point. You’re right.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 23, 2009 6:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing about Clayton
I thought his job was to be a reporter; to fill us in on what transactions may be coming, or who may be moving up or down the depth charts around the league. He’s supposed to be a newsman, not a football “analyst” or “expert.” When did this change?
by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 23, 2009 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...thats why I cant take any of his opinions seriously...same with Pork Chop...
They have no perspective as a coach or player…from any walk of life.
Shefter is different……he has personal relationships with teams (particularly the Broncos) and that what leads him to break stories…but you hardly EVER see him opine….thats what I like about Shefter!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jul 23, 2009 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the Royal with Cheese
I never liked it. It just sounds like you are ordering a burger to eat. I personally like Royal Flush because he is always beating CB and a royal flush beats all hands. Just my opinion though.
by gnarlybroncodude on Jul 22, 2009 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 AZ, I am stoked, as are many--Let the games begin....
Also another great—I did say great, and…( I darn sure mean it ) write up HT,
I’d give you a salmon, but you’d just give it to bear.
Rec’d
One more thing, I agree with AZ, Eddie needs a new nick name. I liked Pulp Fiction too,
but Eddie has IMO outgrown it. A new Poll Please:
My vote: E-Roy lol
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Jul 22, 2009 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a silly tangent....
1. If the salmon was “lox”, I wouldn’t share with Bear. I love lox. Fresh caught salmon, uncooked and still flopping around goes straight to the bear, but not the delicacy with cream cheese and capers.
2. I would vote for “royalty”.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've never been a fan of "with cheese" either.
But it seems to have stuck at MHR. : )
If Marshall plays this year, and the staff has no intentions of keeping him into 2010, he ought to be bumped to #2 (and not because he is the lesser receiver). Because of Marshall’s sensitivity, it won’t happen. But Marshall has stated he doesn’t want to play for Denver, has an injury (the extent of which the team hasn’t been able to check recently), and has looming legal and suspension issues. If Marshall is on his way out, Denver ought to start grooming Royal right away. As it is, I hope it isn’t lost on the readers that this is only one analysis. I put Marshall at #1 because that is where I project him if he stays this year. However, the position should be astricked with the disclaimer that Marshall’s position is tenuous (even now).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Royale with Cheese
I think some of you are missing the point. That is a fantastic nick. It isn’t about a burger…it is about the reference to such a superbly cool movie. There’s a scene or two in Pulp Fiction I skip when watching, but the dialog is absolutely the coolest to date in a movie.
Also, the dialog has to do with how cool European names are vs American. Call him “Fast Eddie” Royal if you want, but to me that is like calling him “Quarter Pounder” instead of “Royale”.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2009 2:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can have...
“…with cheese” if I can have “Gom Jabbar”.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have seen your Gom Jabbar
And you have seen mine…I can kill you with a word.
:P
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2009 5:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice!
I guess the sleeper has awakened!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 5:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
i cant watch when he stabs the adrenalin into Uma’s chest
but i have to say the best part of that movie is bruce willis section
“zeds dead baby, zeds dead”
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
"Born like this / Into this"
by BroncoJoe311 on Jul 22, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So many good ones there
To me the best are the Travolta – Samuel L Jackson scenes by far.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Royale with Cheese is still my favorite. You have to say it like Sam Jackson did in the movie. It implies that something that is plain is actually very impressive. A pile of soy, beef, cheese, and bread, is really a piece of royalty plus the cheese (like a cherry on top, or any garnish that really brings it to the next level). To me, that is a great metaphor for Eddie’s game; pigeonholed as nothing more than a slot receiver and a return specialist, Eddie proved to be rookie royalty (not just a good burger, but the best of his class), and a top notch addition in multiple respects; returner, work ethic, clutch performer, and he is a great person (the cheese).
OK, I am clearly overthinking this. ;)
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
by jibbons on Jul 22, 2009 6:01 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
lol
FWIW, I think “…with cheese” is here to stay.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 6:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame . . .
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
by AZDynamics on Jul 22, 2009 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yuck, it's an awful nickname
Any nickname that’s longer than a person’s given name is not going to be used by people who actually talk to the guy, especially such an overdone clunker. What’s wrong with Vet? That’s what his teammates call him.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Jul 22, 2009 7:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Fast Eddie...
Like Royal Flush (beats all hands!) too. Never having seen Pulp Fiction (which I understand to be great), I can’t appreciate the “with cheese” reference.
Kind of lame contribution here, I know, but hey – I’m at work. Thanks for the diversion all :)
by MakeCents on Jul 22, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we whip out Royal with Cheese
if we ever catching him doing a non-Rod-Smithlike cheesy celebration in the end zone? : )
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 22, 2009 9:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t see Lloyd play much last year (he was hurt most of it, and I didn’t see many Bears games), but I did see FAR TOO MUCH of Lloyd as a Redskin… he was absolutely HORRIBLE. Bad routes, bad hands, bad consistency, bad effort….
He has lots of talent… just enough to fool coaches with his potential, get on the field, and then sabotage the team with poorly timed drops, missed blocks, etc.
If he sees much action for Denver this year, I’m afraid I’m gonna need A LOT more booze for what will likely be a a very long season.
by cjfarls on Jul 27, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice work and breakdown HT.
With all the changes this offseason I am really looking forward to the WR corp. I mean with a new philosophy and offense here from McDaniels and Orton who will really help us in check downs, I can’t wait to see what happens. As long as we are moving the chains and scoring TDs, I won’t care how many long passes we don’t see.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Jul 22, 2009 12:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice write up HT,
While I usually agree with you, I can’t agree with your statement, “The team wouldn’t gain or lose much in terms of Marshall’s presence or absence respectively, but the receiving corps would be structured very differently.”
I think that the loss of BMarsh would be a major blow to this offense. He simply can do things that no one else on the roster can do. His height and ability to go get the ball in the air will be a major asset for Orton and may help compensate for Orton’s less than perfect accuracy on the deeper throws.
Besides that, for a reason that I can’t really explain, I’m expecting a big year from Chad Jackson. I guess it’s just a gut feeling.
I’m expecting a big year from this group and this group will need to have a big year if the Broncos are going to be successful.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Jul 22, 2009 12:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
That's fair.
I myself can’t rate the offense based on who isn’t playing for us. For example, the team won’t have Reggie Wayne playing for us, but we never did. We may not have Marshall playing for us, but then the only thing to rate is “how good is the team right now?”
If Marshall just isn’t in the picture, I still think we have a “great” group versus a “slightly better than great” group. There is also the trade off of losing a good receiver, but losing the distractions that go along with him (such as having to gameplan for his presence AND his absence, since the coaches can’t know for sure if he’ll play).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks HT - couple questions
Don’t we also have a couple CFA’s? Nate Swift, for one?
Also, what would you think of signing Matt Jones – a little bigger than Marshall and faster, had a great year going with the Jags last season before they dropped him for violating his probation (for cocaine possession) for drinking two beers while playing golf.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 22, 2009 12:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know enough about Swift to comment on him.
As to Matt Jones, my bias will show. If a guy doesn’t have the sense to follow the terms of his probation (probation being a second chance in my mind), I might question his ability to play with the team. The cocain possession alone would scare me off.
Realizing that you do criminal defense work, and respecting the need to defend persons and give them chances at rehabilitation, I can see the value in letting Jones come on board. But in my own line of work I get a different perspective (recidivism, getting away with crimes though technicalities, etc). So setting aside my own bias (as much as I can, which isn’t much), I guess that I like the Broncos emphasis on getting quality characters (the majority of our draft picks were team captains, for example). Taking a chance on replacing Marhsall’s legal issues with a guy that had cocaine and broke his probation terms just scares me off, and seem to be going in the wrong direction.
If we bring in a player with legal or personal issues, I would just like to see a little time elapsed between the transgression and the signing. If Jones can stay trouble free for awhile, I think he deserves a chance. If I were the coach, I might want to talk to the Jags first to get more of their reasoning for letting a good player go.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts on Jones
He did something incredibly stupid in using cocaine (and even more incredibly stupid in trying to do some in a car, which is where he got caught). But caught he was, a year ago, and after three lackluster years he seemed to get it, and had a great year last year until the two beers on the golf course. All in all, I think he’s a lesser risk than Brandon Marshall with his umpteen arrests and run ins with the law. If it were up to me, I’d sign him up – for one thing, it would send a message to Brandon.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 22, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll meet you half way.
How about we sign him, but with some sort of behavior clause? In fact, I’ll let you draw it up, since you’re the legal guy.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I’ll defer to Mr. Xanders on the contract. But a behavior clause or two would be a good idea. Jones could work out well for us. I’m surprised no other team has grabbed him yet.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 22, 2009 6:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I’m surprised no other team has grabbed him yet."
That may be an indication that there’s more to the story, hence, why I would want to talk to the Jags.
A lot of the time (I would imagine) the teams know more about the situations than the fans do. Even at the HS level, when fans or the local media would question team decisions, the staff often had more information than the public did.
If teams aren’t jumping on Jones, and assuming that teams want good players to join them, it is conceivable that Jones might be a bigger risk than we are led to believe. Just speculating.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 23, 2009 7:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also has to do with his actual WR skills vs. being an athlete
Jones runs poor routes and has inconsistent hands…. he plays WR like a converted option QB… and thats not a compliment.
He’s the big, physical version of brandon lloyd, with even more off-field issues. Being a great athlete and making some highlight reel catches is not enough to succeed at WR in the NFL.
I’m not surprised at all that no one wants to bring that in…
by cjfarls on Jul 27, 2009 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
Gom Jabbar refers to the needle of death that put Paul Atreidies to the test of humanity in the first Dune book. Rather obscure reference.
by Ponderosa on Jul 22, 2009 1:06 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I included a link.
A lot of Dune fans might think it refers to the box that Paul put his hand in. You are correct.
Like Dennis Miller, I won’t be a hit on MNF. Too many obscure references.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not obscure to me
I read the movie and saw the book.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read the series...
…saw the movie, and even saw the two Sci Fi channel movies. Great stuff! (I even have the soundtrack).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But did you read The Dune Encyclopedia?
That would make you a real nerd! LOL
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 22, 2009 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er, uhm...
I don’t own a copy, but I have thumbed through it at the bookstore.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 23, 2009 7:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
I loved Dennis Miller on MNF, but then again, I got most of his references just fine. :) It is a sad thing to have such a comic genious in such a cool situation but have to can him because the general population’s lack of knowledge.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2009 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So true.
Except every now and then, he gets a little cutesy with his wittiness. It’s like there’s a slightly assinine level he knows he shouldn’t push against, but sometimes the joke is so golden he can’t help himself. ^^
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 22, 2009 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved millers references
It takes some guts to risk your job comparing drives to the Peloponesian war.
He really woN me over with the Afflack quack he gave to TO. (at least I think it was TO)
I would take him over a lot of the CBS crews.
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
by jibbons on Jul 22, 2009 6:10 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Appreciate the Work HT
I would like to add a few thoughts to for consideration to the discussion…Even though Sheffler is listed as and has been used primarily as a TE, he has the prototypical stature of some of the taller and stronger #1 receivers in the league and, has excellent strength and speed as well…He is smart, has very good / soft hands and I believe that McDaniels likes his “verstility”…And, as I believe has been mentioned here on MHR in other posts, he he grew up as a WR in High School and early in College…
I will not be surprised to see the McDaniels scheme use Tony more often than many may have considered, split out wide and running WR routes and creating match-up havic with the defense…His versitility could help us save a roster spot somewhere else…
Anybody else have thoughts on using Tony in this way?
by BroncoSense72 on Jul 22, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I come from an old school of thought...
…where a player has a role and excells in that role. In the newer (and probably improved) school of thought, players are seen more as “athletes” and not “role players”. Because I am somewhat trapped in my own paradigm, it is hard for me to evaluate using Scheff as a receiver when he plays the TE role so well (he blocks on the line better than any receiver can, if you want to invert the argument). But in a world of “hybrids” and the “Ameoba”, I can see Scheff being used as a receiver. (My own antiquated way would be to start Scheff on the line, then motion him out to slot.)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sheff and Brandon are nearly clones
in hieght, weight, and speed. He will play as a wr in many plays this year.
by el_DON_de_TAOS on Jul 22, 2009 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're right.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"He will play as a wr in many plays this year."
I think so too, but he’ll start the play as a TE, then shift wide, or to a slot potition.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 22, 2009 6:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I enjoyed your post. However, I don’t think your receiver rankings take into consideration the players’ roles on special teams. Who returns kicks? Who can be a gunner? These are going to be critical for the 5th and 6th spots. Somehow I cannot see Lloyd or CJack being contributors on ST except as a backup returner.
by ocbroncomaniac on Jul 22, 2009 1:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
I omitted ST references for a few reasons. One, I admit a lot of ignorance about STs roles. Second, I wanted to focus soley on the roles of the players as receivers.
It is to be hoped that someone can emerge to take the return duties away from Royal. As great as Royal can be, it is a terrible risk for the #2 receiver to be put in.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad has experience on Returns
Courtesy of nfl.com:
Career KR Totals: 14 Ret 268Yds 9.1 Avg 39 Lng 0TD
Career PR Totals: 5 Ret 83 Yds 16.6 Avg 39 Lng 0TD
Not much, but some anyway
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sure you don't have them switched?
9.1 looks terribly anemic for a KR average, and 16.6 is probably better for a PR average than we have any right to hope for.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Jul 22, 2009 8:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I apologize
That is supposed to read 19.1 Average. That should look better.
I was trying to paste the chart from NFL.com. When I pasted it, I had to align the numbers. Then when I hit “preview,”it got garbled up, and I didn’t want to post it that way. Perhaps it is better done through HTML?
Thank you for catching that spock.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Stuff HT rec'd
We do have a few stellar players in our WR corp. I really like the with or without BM preview. I’ve stopped trying to figure that kid out, he doesn’t seem to understand reputation and respectability go hand in hand. Otherwise he wouldn’t have the off field issues. I’ve seen him dubbed “Baby TO” in some blogs and articles over the past year. Not sure that’s a label you’d want to have. I’m also impressed the team continued on without him in the OTAs and mini camps. That alone could relegate him to a lessor role early on until he gets up to speed with the rest of the team should he stay.
by bchiper on Jul 22, 2009 1:45 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
The “Baby TO” moniker was originaly a comparision of playing style. In a fiendish twist, it compares the two in more ways than one.
Good point!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definetley got that same vib from you Hoosierteacher
But that’s ok maybe BrandMa can win you over if he can be smart and stay out of trouble. I really have a strong affection for the youngster and am pulling for him.
by Lisa FB on Jul 22, 2009 1:52 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I've been pulling for him for a long time...
…but always with the caveat that I’m getting very tired of his stunts. I’ve pointed out his problems, but always with the attitude that “He has time to change” because he’s still young. However, this off-season and the demand to be traded was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. If he plays for us, I cheer for him. But once he says he doesn’t “love” us anymore, well, I’m not into unrequited love.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not into unrequited love
Me neither. Been burned too many times.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
BMarsh
Gotta say I disagree with how important BM is to our offense…I think there would be a huge drop-off if Royal was our #1. BM’s durability, run blocking, and the need for defenses to adopt a game plan tailored around stopping him (or else he gets 18 catches) can’t be undervalued. Now that our QB isn’t really a weapon in his own right, we need to keep defenses honest, and BM will make everyone else better more than Royal would. Maybe the individual production drop-off wouldn’t be that large, but the impact on the whole offense would be. I doubt BM gets suspended. If he continues to get into trouble, obviously we’ll need to reevaluate, but it really sounds like was being taken advantage of in that recent drama…nothing like a big bank account to drum up phony lawsuits where defending them costs more money and takes a lot longer than paying off the crazy ex to go away.
-yet another long time reader but first time poster
Does it seem to anyone else that we have like 10 guys who might return kicks? Who are the most likely to actually get PR and KR duties?
by MontanaBronco on Jul 22, 2009 2:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great to hear from you!
I hope you write many, many more comments and posts.
I think you make good points on Marshall. But here’s another angle. Marshall may be a beast to gameplan against, but the new regime will be spreading the ball at any rate, lessining the role of any one receiver. Marshall got a lot of balls thrown his way (because Cutler was very focused on him), so some of his stats are padded a bit. Marshall also dropped a lot of balls.
I’m not taking away from Marshall. He IS our best receiver. However, with or without him, I think the team takes a major step forward in creating more targets and not relying on one player.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall and Royal
I don’t see how a holdout represents attitude – Casey Wiegman openly threatened to not show up for TC if he didn’t get a new contract, would anyone say he is an attitude guy? How about Hines Ward? he held out, John Abraham did too, how about Antonio Gates?
Holdout is a business decision, same as a franchise tag and same as cutting a player. Are the Broncos bad people for cutting players? we have about 80 people on the roster knowing full well that at least 27 of them have to be fired within the next month, that is 25% of the personnel.
Royal isn’t really that fast for a speed WR, he doesn’t have that top gear to fly by cornerbacks. He is extremely quick and gets up to speed very fast, but once he gets up to speed most cornerbacks can stay with him reasonably well. He is an excellent WR.
by gyldenlove on Jul 22, 2009 2:28 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
All holdouts are not equal. I can’t begin to compare the way Marshall went about his holdout with anything that Wiegmann did.
In fact, most people (at least at MHR) have written about how Casey went about his situation the right way and earned an extension when making comparisons to Marshall. Public statements are a part of it, and class is as well. Casey never said he wanted to leave Denver, for example. Marshall has said he no longer wants to play in Denver. I take them both at their word.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
DID YOU NOT SEE THIS ROOKIE LAST SEASON. HE CAN DO IT ALL. MARSHALL IS A PROBLEM ON AND OFF THE FIELD. THE PLAYERS YOU USED DON’T HAVE OFF FIELD ISSUES.
by wildcat37 on Jul 22, 2009 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's holdouts and then there's holdouts
Wiegeman set a date for a new contract and then showed up and worked hard in mini camps and other non-required team events. Marshall started by not showing up to events while demanding a trade or maybe a new contract as a 2nd choice.
One guy says he wants more money and works hard to show he deserves it while negotiations are in progress.
The other says he wants more money and does nothing with the team while negotiations are in progress.
Are the cases the same?
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Jul 22, 2009 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions 8 recs
Perfectly stated...
…and rec’d. You said it better than I could.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 6:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
if the new player agreement goes thru the broncos can keep marshall under the same contrac for 2 more years. so if i was marshall i woul shut my mouth and pla ball on the other hand would not miss him at all.
by wildcat37 on Jul 22, 2009 3:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
I don’t see how a holdout represents attitude
Here’s how – he has yet to play a full season. He has had problems with injury, and with dragging out an injury until he was threatened with losing his job (rookie season) – at which point he suddenly became rehabilitated. He did play injured last season, but part of the injury situation was from being careless with his own health.
He also cost us his services for a game last season and is teetering on the edge of others this season. He has been so oblivious to how to handle his personal and professional affairs – and they overlap because his actions warranted a suspension – that he even managed to disgust Rod Smith, who epitomizes, for me, a good teammate.
He blames the current management for the fact that his injury didn’t show up on two separate MRIs last season. That has nothing to do with the McDaniels team and isn’t a matter of poor healthcare, but an unfortunate fact of medicine. Not all injuries show on MRIs, period. He refuses to demonstrate where his rehab is, but insists that the team should somehow take his word that all if fine, sight unseen, and demands a raise or a trade despite all of these factors.
Given all of these factors, plus his pouting last season when he wasn’t the focus of the team’s passing attack, I consider that he has a serious attitude issue
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 22, 2009 3:25 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Grrrr...
Nuff said…Totally agree…I think that we should all just hope for the best and prepare for the worst…I can assure you that McDaniels & Co. is doing just that!
by BroncoSense72 on Jul 22, 2009 4:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always good when the bear...
…has your back. Even better when it is the “doctor” bear.
I continue to hope that Marshall changes his ways, but it has reached the point that he’ll have to prove it. Making the statement that he doesn’t want to play for my team isn’t going to win me over. It may be called “hardball negotiating” when it is directed at the front office, but it can be called “bad attitude” when the comment is made publicly for fans to hear as well.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2009 6:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree except
I can’t remember the pouting. Remind me?
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 22, 2009 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
run blocking is not a prob. CB don’t want to tackle anyway, dallas let go TO, st. lu. let go HOLT, indy let go MARVIN, kc . let go TONY. all these guys are older but will still put up #s. the teams that let these players go got nothing in return so if he want to be traded please trade him. THIS IS THE NFL.
by wildcat37 on Jul 22, 2009 3:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Marshall, but...
Too many cops, and too many drops. He nedds to clean up both areas,.
by jayrockstone on Jul 22, 2009 3:52 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we all like Marshall as a player, and want him to improve in his mental approach to the game and to iron out his personal issues. We really need to become a tougher, more physical team, and Brandon can help us develop a smashmouth running game. I’m new here, and I think I’m going to like it!
"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi
by broncospriestess on Jul 22, 2009 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome and thanks for the post. Nice points!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jul 22, 2009 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome "Confessor"
I guarantee you’ll like it.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 22, 2009 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
does everyone agree
with HT’s assessment that Gaffney is a lock for the roster while Lloyd is far from it? I would expect to see only one of them on the roster (assuming Marshall plays), but it’s not clear to me that Gaffney is so far ahead of Lloyd. They both seem like reasonably solid mediocre receivers with mediocre stats. Gaffney has the advantage of knowing the system, but Lloyd has played his whole career on crappy passing teams.
by bushwah on Jul 22, 2009 7:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
"...reasonably solid mediocre receivers with mediocre stats."
Sounds yucky. Lets cut them both and go with some young guys, like Nate Swift. And sign Matt Jones.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 22, 2009 8:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with myself...
…and here’s why:
So far, Gaffney is practicing with Royal in the #1 and #2 spots in mini camps. Llyod hasn’t been in the starting mix for practices. That can all change at the “real” summer camp, but so far Gaffney has been tapped by the coaches to play a role, while Lloyd is competing to get noticed.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 23, 2009 7:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Gaffney makes the team
Despite my comment just above which was meant to be humorous (I thought bushwah’s description of Gaffney and Lloyd was pretty funny). Gaffney makes the team because McD knows him and wouldn’t have brought him here just to cut him. Lloyd – I don’t know. He’s got a lot of talent but also a lot of oops. Still, I expect that McD spoke with Orton about him before signing him (and paying him) so that’s gotta say something.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 23, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Consistency
The difference is this:
Lloyd is unpredicatably the either the best, or the WORST receiver you’ve ever seen. When he’s playing well (as it did at times in SF and Chi), this averages out to be a highly mediocre receiver. When he’s playing poorly like with the Redskins…. he can single handedly destroy your offense with misrun routes, drops and poor effort rendering the effort of everyone else on the offense irrelevant.
Gaffney on the other has has always been a highly consistent, solid performer. He doesn’t take over games… but he makes the catches he’s supposed to make, gets to the spots he’s supposed to be in, allows the others on the team to excel while providing his own solid contribution.
There is NO comparison between Lloyd and Gaffney.
by cjfarls on Jul 27, 2009 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great article and great timing
Kenny McKinley was just signed to a 4-year deal.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 22, 2009 10:15 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
My 2 cents about the whole Royal vs. Marshall as the teams number 1 reciever
To me it seems as if the label “#1” receiver is more fan/media driven than anything when it comes to a balanced team with many good options at the wide receiver position. Last year Marshall was I believe a true #1 receiver in most of the teams games, as evidence by the insane amount of passes that were thrown his way, but it also seemed as if the secondary matchups dictated the roles of the recievers. The opposing secondary’s physical size/speed/scheme/formations in many ways may have dictated who our #1 reciever would be for the day.
Against San Diego (week 2) Marshall was probably the so called #1 reciever in the Broncos game plan, and in many ways this was deemed by San Diego’s confidence in Antonio Cromartie’s abilities to cover Marshall, therefore leaving them one on one while Royal recieved the added protection due to the lesser corners/secondary players put on him.
It seems as if the opposing teams formations/players will dictate who the so called #1 receiver is, and therefore outside of a players own personal pride, it truly doesn’t matter who the #1 or #2 receiver is. Royal was our so called #2 reciever last year and he ended with 91 grabs for 980 yards, those numbers sure arent anything to laugh at.
Personally I hope we retain Marshall. I hate his off the field stuff, and if he truly is the idiot who is giving Dukes the ammo to drag the broncos name through the mud, than he will continue to have lost even more of what little respect I have left for him. On the other hand I love watching the guy play, and before the whole contract thing I felt as if he was having a good offseason. I liked his comments about wanting to follow the guys with the rings after Cutler was traded, so who knows whats going through his mind.
Anyway this team will be good, and this will be a year in which the Broncos surprise many people.
On To Victory!!!
by alacumba!! on Jul 22, 2009 11:45 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good points, alacumba
I think that our system lends itself well to developing young talent in a paradigm in which the team really is more important than the individual. I think that nearly all the commentators agree that it would be nice to use Marshall’s talents. Most of us also agree that Royal may have more ‘potential’ than Brandon, but this doesn’t necessarily indicate a preference: it’s merely an observance of fact. I base it on the recognition that Royal did better in his first year out than Brandon did in his. With his work ethic and natural skills, alongside his maturity, Royal may outdo Brandon over time. Again – this isn’t a preference. It’s always best to get good production from as many quality WRs as possible and I hope that Brandon does well for us. The ‘#1’ position may not be a big deal – we will need at least three to provide regular production.
I’d place Gaffney on the ‘almost certain’ list. McD likes him and wanted him to come to Denver, which gives him an advantage (so does knowing the terminology and the basic system). Stokley is one of the best if healthy. McKinley is the first WR draft pick and has a lot of potential as a future slot receiver: Since Stokes is getting older and has several (12+) concussions, he may not last so I’ll place Kenny on that same list. Beyond those – whoever stands out in camp has the shot, would seem to follow, always assuming that we keep 6 rather than 5.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 23, 2009 1:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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