2009 Denver Broncos - Breaking Down the Roster -- Defensive Tackles
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 23, 2009 2:30 PM MDT
in 2009 Season Preview
63 comments
Listen to the pundits, and this position is the ONLY position on the defense (and quite nearly the team sans Cutler) that has any significance.
And Denver COMPLETELY ignored it.
Of course, many of you are here reading this report because those same pundits have confused, mocked and irritated you, and in the process have even unleashed magnificent contradictions onto their readers regarding what matters, what doesn't, and on a very basic level, what is actually going on.
But, folks, there is perception and there is reality.
And the job of the first has been and always will be to grasp the second, not to create it. In that vein, let's provide the antidote to the type of evasion that the media at large (minus a few isolated examples of rationality) engages in, even as they accuse the Broncos of similar evasion. Let's look at Existence and Identity.
As in, let's look at the existence of certain DT/NTs on our roster, and their identity, that which separates one from the other.
Marcus Thomas
#79 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-3
305
Sep 23, 1985
24
Florida
2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Free Agent
Draft #4 (121st overall), 2007
If you haven't seen Marcus Thomas maturing before your eyes, you haven't been watching Broncos football. With sub-par coaching he has still managed to get steadily better, following a familiar progression for even elite DTs. Going into his third year, the big question is whether this slowly-accelerating talent is for real, or if we are just seeing things.
Where are the stats that show him getting better? The sacks and pressures? An uptick in tackles? They just aren't there. In fact, he has yet to record his first sack in the NFL, quite a drought for a player touted as one of the top rookie interior pass-rushers in 2007.
But Thomas has made significant progress as a Bronco despite the setbacks of the defense around him. To begin with, he was always a one trick pony as a pass rusher. He didn't really have a lot of moves, and he really only rushed at one speed. The secret to his college success was his elite burst and explosive ability out of his stance. Slightly leaner than a typical "heavy" on the inside, 3-technique really seemed to be his ceiling. His off-field persona had issues as well, including a series of terrible decisions, starting with a positive test for marijuana, that ended with his dismissal from the Gators as his team was making a run at a championship.
Fast forward to his rookie season, and he seemed to take an even farther step back. Altitude coupled with being out of football shape robbed him of his explosive ability, making him play like the equivalent of roster fodder. On top of that he had an incident 'back home' in Jacksonville involving cocaine possession which seriously threatened to ruin his career before it even started. Things weren't looking good, but two lights could be seen by the concerned observer; the first was Thomas' on-field ethic. While his play lacked, his effort did not, and it was only after the season did he acknowledge to anyone just how much of an effect conditioning had had on him. With that acknowledgment came a simple promise to come into the next season in better shape. The second light was his apparent understanding of just how close he had come to losing his future with the cocaine incident. Another simple promise: he was done with that old life, his old haunts, his old problems. The only currency backing up either promise was the specter of his ethic and effort as he struggled silently throughout the long 2007 season.
Look ahead to 2009, and the light is getting brighter with Thomas. Nary an incident has cropped up since his promise to end the off-field issues, and he was even awarded the Federal Bureau of Investigation's 'Director's Award,' given to someone who provides excellent service and support to the law enforcement community. His conditioning has been excellent, and he logged his first 16-start season in 2008. What I liked to see most as an evaluator was how he was no longer out of the play if his initial burst was met with a sound block. Early in his career the play would have been over for him at that point., but now he has developed a number of moves, and more importantly speeds, with which he can counter and compensate. He also moved well between lining up at the 3-technique position and the 1-technique. Both positions will be premiums in a "gap-shooting" style of D-Line play, so Thomas' familiarity with both will make him an asset on pass-rushing downs as either a NT or DE. That type of versatility meshes well with the defensive philosophy that is being talked about by the new staff, and with new D-Line coach Wayne Nunnely keeping a careful watch there is a tremendous expectation for Thomas.
The new staff talks about tailoring a defense to fit the skills of its players. To Thomas, this matters more than to almost anyone else. His trending indicates that he is ripe for a breakout, if there can be consistency and coaching around him.
Carlton Powell
#75 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-3
300
Aug 14, 1985
24
Virginia Tech
2009: $385,000, 2010: $470,000, 2011: $555,000, 2012: Free Agent
Draft #5b (148 overall), 2008
An enigma wrapped in a mystery, hidden behind a painting of the Mona Lisa (as if he'd fit), and what little we know about Carlton is limited to reports that he is bulking up, and that his Achilles rehab has gone well. But will he be any good? That isn't really the best question. A better question is, "Will he be any good, again?"
In college Powell was an elite run-stuffer, whose stats in that area are truly stunning ( a career runs-against total measured in negative numbers!), but what is impressive is HOW he got those stats. He made his name going up against double teams, and unlike one-on-one matchups, offensive talent can often be overlooked when evaluating a player's ability to take up space and fight double teams.
This translates well to the 3-4 aspects of Denver's new defense, but it does have a disclaimer. Like Thomas, Powell was primarily a 1- and 3-technique tackle, though his strength was in reestablishing the line of scrimmage and holding his ground, not closing in and pressuring the pocket. What Thomas has in speed, Powell makes up for in brute strength.
One thing to bear in mind, is that again, we are looking at a tackle prospect who is used to lining up in a 1-gap fashion, so we are seeing a need to tailor the defense to attack single gaps in order to draw double teams, whether we run a 3-4 or 4-3.
Which is what Nolan and McDaniels have said they will do. A significant, but often overlooked point.
Ronald Fields
#91 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-2
315
Sep 13, 1981
28
Mississippi State
Signed a two-year, $5 million contract. 2011: Free Agent
Unrestricted Free Agent (San Francisco), 2009
At 315 lbs. (and rumored to be bulking back up to 322-330) we are starting to see a more typical version of a 3-4 NT build. But looking beyond just weight, there are a few things that stand out about Fields. The first that jumps out to me is the 34" wingspan, always an asset. I also like that he moved between the 5-, 3-, and 1-technique on the San Francisco line. His bulk is well-distributed with a very strong lower body, so anchoring is definitely within his toolbox.
His power has always been exceptional, and he may be the most powerful defensive lineman on the roster at this point. Unfortunately, that power doesn't always take shape on the field, and now we are starting to get into my concerns over this prospect. There is a reason he was on the fast track to a reserve role in San Francisco, and it wasn't coaching or scheme fit.
Since college, Fields has always been a player that needed that little bit of extra incentive, and who failed to consistently produce at the level he was capable of. But he was worth a chance because when he was 'fired up' it was amazing to watch. His power combined with what can only be described as exceptional quickness led to fits of masochistic destruction in the interior of the line. He plays like a man possessed, and mauls whoever stands in his way. But only sometimes. The rest of the time? Swallowed up in the chaos of defensive line obscurity.
He started to get on the right track when he entered the league, due to coaching changes at his alma mater, and his rise in college production showed how good he might be. But in the NFL, his strong start, even for a rookie, diminished quickly, and soon he was being fitted for a spot on the bench. A short stint where Nolan himself, as head coach, insisted that Fields be put on the field as a 5-technique DE, resulted in a series of good games, only to see him break his arm and miss out on that opportunity.
Fields is essentially without a pass rush move of any significance, and has been since college, but his strength in the running game is excellent, where he reestablishes the line of scrimmage and then holds his ground. He also has a bad record against double teams since entering the pros, though when he is playing well, he seems to perform much, much better in this department.
In the same vein as his ability to intensify and motivate his play, I worry about his ability to focus on the field and in the film room - just one of a number of little things that contributed to his play lacking consistency in San Francisco.
Fields is going to get scrutinized heavily by Broncos fans going forward, so it is important to understand where his lacking may be coming from. One thing that no one should let take them by surprise, is if Fields sees most of his action as a run-stopping, havoc-creating defensive end, part of a very deep rotation. Nolan saw something for Fields there before, a plan derailed by injury and Nolan's own battle to keep the Niners competitive. Now that Nolan can focus solely on the defense again, he may try to finish what he started with Fields, and there is no doubt that 3-4 end was part of that plan.
J'Vonne Parker
#69 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-4
325
Jun 07, 1982
27
Rutgers
Undisclosed
Free Agent, 2009
Parker is a space-eater who has spent 4 years drifting from Atlanta's and Baltimore's practice squads to Carolina's reserve, to Cleveland's reserve, to Dallas' reserve, and finally to Arizona's reserve. Arizona saw enough potential to protect Parker as a restricted free agent, but declined to actually tender an offer sheet when push came to shove.
He ran a 5.2 40-yard dash, recorded a 32-inch vertical and pressed 225 lbs 27 times, none of which stand out. For all intents and purposes it looks like we are talking about roster fodder here, with little chance of a surprise. He has trended from being picked up by one of the best defensive-line situations in the league (Baltimore) to being a no-name prospect for the team perceived to be the worst D-Line in the league. Not a good trend.
Matthias Askew
#99 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-5
302
Jul 01, 1982
27
Michigan State
Reserve/Future Contract
Free Agent, 2008
I liked everything about this player's career at Michigan State, and his upside was excellent going into the draft. A player with top potential. So what happened?
Let's start with what Askew can do right. He had excellent athleticism, and good size to man the traditional left-DT role, and had experience lining up as a 5-, 3- and 1-tech, just like many of our other prospects. While not exceptionally fast, he was phone-booth quick, and could rely on pure strength much of the time, though he went into the draft having impressed greatly with his accelerating knowledge of pass rushing. One thing to like in particular was how well he sniffed out the ball, both in play recognition and in stripping the ball-carrier. He frequently came away with a forced fumble or deflected pass if he got anywhere near the QB. Excellent closing speed and terrific handwork had him pegged for the fourth round, where he was selected by the Bengals.
After an injury-plagued rookie season, he came along very slowly, but won the fourth DT spot in 2005 to stay on the roster. But, in the end, he failed to impress on the field. Then early in 2006 he was charged with resisting arrest in a typical Cincinnati drama that involved Askew being tasered by the police, and then suing the city for excessive force, and finally ended with Askew being found not guilty, and having all charges dropped. Through this drama he stayed out of football after being waived by the Bengals 'for being a malcontent,' and was picked up by the Redskins for their practice squad, but was waived before the start of the season. He finally ended up on Denver's practice squad last year at the end of the season, and now he waits for what will likely be his final chance in the NFL, in McDaniels' and Nolan's first Broncos training camp.
If Askew can find a way to tap into his raw athleticism, while listening and learning, then he may still have a chapter or two to write in his NFL story. But if he can't shake the mistakes and problems of his past, they will drag him out of camp in the first cut-down.
Chris Baker
#75 / Defensive Tackle / Denver Broncos
6-2
329
Oct. 8, 1987
22
Hampton
Undisclosed
Rookie Free Agent, 2009
First, do yourself a favor and refresh your memory of BroncoBear's excellent Tales writeup on Chris Baker.
Back? Time to talk about what we have on our hands. I won't say that the character issue is erased, but I will say that we should all have enough data to feel comfortable with what we know, and how it will affect his chances at making the team, good or bad. What is more important at this point is to ask what positives he brings to the position battle.
Let's start with the versatility to man the 5-tech, 1-tech and 0-tech (true NT), the big body (has played at 330 lbs, but could slim down to 320-325 and still be plenty big), the long wingspan (34.5 inch arms), and impressive pro-day numbers (35.5 inch vertical? Are you kidding me?) Versatility has been a hallmark of the front-seven prospects whose services have been sought by McDaniels and Co., and Baker produced at both End and Tackle in a 3-4 alignment, though mostly against lesser competition. His body type is refreshingly typical of a true NT, and even if he slimmed down to help alleviate some playing weight concerns (fatigue mostly) he would still be the largest Tackle on the roster.
His pro-day numbers are quite impressive, and it is this freakish, raw athleticism that Denver is counting on in Baker.
Perhaps the biggest risk is that Baker needed more time to learn the ins and outs of his positons on the DL. The type of trench warfare he saw at Hampton leaves him ill-prepared for what awaits at the NFL level, despite his athleticism. I would expect him to practice and play like what he is: a very young player who is behind the curve both in terms of competition and coaching. It is doubtful that he becomes a major contributor this year, and may spend most of his time learning the basics, learning what it is like to go against NFL-caliber players, and prepping for a stint on the practice squad this season. There will be some who believe that he is our best D-Line prospect, and over the very long haul, that may be true. But in terms of 2009, and even 2010, Baker is very unlikely to be the cure for what ails the Broncos.
Summary
McDaniels and Co. have added only two experienced NT/DT mixes to the roster, in Baker and Fields, and appear to be intending to move forward with much of what was left to them by Shanahan and Goodman. With the group as a whole possessing the skill sets of a penetrating one-gap defense, we are definitely going to spend the majority of our time lining up that way, whether in a 3-4 or 4-3. Unfortunately, none of our guys are true "do it all" tackles yet, and they have only limited time to jell on top of that, so execution will be of the highest importance early on.
We can expect to lose at least two of the above players in the preseason numbers crunch, and may rely on a veritable 'skeleton roster' at the position, rather than hedging our bets too much and impacting the roster math negatively, so I am waiting to see just how intense the DT/NT competition gets. Many of these players are good bets to move out to DE regularly, and Nolan has always used his DTs as ends when calling a 3-4, but the NT/DT position may be their best chance to nail down a spot on the roster. Outside of this group there really aren't any legitimate challengers to the 1- or 0-technique slot, and even within this group itself there is no clear-cut player who is right for the position, let alone a significant amount of competition for the spot.
These line prospects limit our already limited options for running the 3-4, and clearly put us in 5-2 type of territory, covered here by SlowWhiteGuy. There is no doubt that the Broncos will continue to scout, search and scrape to try and bring some talent to their 3-4 scheme; but in the meantime, what they have appears to be a mix of risk and blue-collar ethic, all still quite young and all quite capable of making the kinds of strides needed to make our line a serviceable one in 2009.
And with a little luck, we may just find that we have a gem or two in the group.
15 recs |
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I think we should see if this guy is available to be our new NT:
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Jul 23, 2009 2:46 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nose Tackle...he's big enough to be our entire defensive line!
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
by broncoholic on Jul 23, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
His brests err.. pecks could play LB
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 23, 2009 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Styg...
I think we have a lot of talent on our line that wont come to fruition for a season or so. If Marcus Thomas could bloom at NT, and Powell and Fields blossom at DE than we may surprise. Our guys are plenty big enough.
My hope is that Pedescleaux, Davis and Baker make our roster. I can tell you right now that Baker wont pass waivers if he goes to our practice squad. I have doubts that E Ped or Rulon do either.
I would almost be for blooding these young guys this season to help there development while we have some veteran leadership in the LB and defensive back corps.
If these guys develop well, we could be set for years to come on the D Line.
Awesome article mate!.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jul 23, 2009 2:49 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Waivers
I agree. There’s no way Baker makes it to the PS if he’s waived, and there’s a good chance that one or both of Pedescleaux and Davis don’t make it, either, unfortunately. :( I’m afraid there’s not going to be space for all three on the roster, and likely only one.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 23, 2009 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Waivers
We are going to lose a couple of young, quality DE/DTs before this is all over, I can just see it. It really sucks too, since we are trying to develop at that position, but I don’t see how we get out of it. McX showed in the draft that this is a whole team approach, so I don’t see them going against that grain to protect the fruits of their endeavors to find quality guys.
Here is a great poll: who would you rather lose? E-Ped, Baker, or Davis?
I think we will cry before this is over. :(
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still...
…it IS a nice problem to have.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm actually very excited with what I think we will see concerning defense...
After the ‘Cutler thing’ I made a number of friends over at ‘Wind City Gridiron’ (Chicago’s SBN site) and just for fun recently did a post there. I’ll stick with the three linemen I feel by the end of the year will be standouts. Because I’m having a lazy moment I’ll just copy what I wrote.
.
One of the first moves Nolan made was to bring Brian Dawkins in—what a great move—instant stability and leadership in the locker room. With Bailey and Dawkins in the secondary we may be a defensive force much sooner than people think. The other fun surprise is the amount of tallent we already had that did not fit in the last two year’s defensive schemes. Many of us at Mile High Report are shaking our heads and realizing that we have a plethora of good athletes that fit in a 3-4 scheme. There have been a couple posts comparing us to the, “No Name” defense that carried Miami through its Super Bowls. I Kid you not……..I am really excited. The MSM may think we didn’t address needed issues but I have a gut feeling that we may accidently have three of the best defensive line-men in the NFL. I could be wrong—but I don’t think so—I’ve watched this game for a long time. Watch for these names:
Marcus Thomas, Carlton Powell, and Chris Baker.
Put these names in your where-ever and remember you heard it here first.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
by Mike Clark on Jul 23, 2009 2:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Great comment, Mr. Clark! Those are my three, too. Baker is an admitted darkhorse, but I’ve been pulling for the guy since I learned about him. As boydy mentioned above, I don’t think he would last long on waivers and leadership for a guy like him is key. Surround him with veterans and hopefully he’ll rise to his freakish potential!
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Jul 23, 2009 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been kinda busy at Chicago's site--so I'm a little out of touch.
But I was exploring this ‘Chris Baker’ one morning and found that he ends his weight-room work-out by squatting 675#’s ten times.
I also found some short ‘briefs’ that stated that the problems he got into is because he went to help someone out of a problem—and got caught up in the problem. I wish I had the links but I was just, “splorin” as my step-dad used to say.
One of the things that caught my heart however is his Father. Somewhere I found a quote where Chris’s dad said, “My son is a good man, he will be no problem.”
If you can find any Ryan Clady archives—-his Dad said the same thing.
I wish I had saved the links—kicking myself at this time.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
by Mike Clark on Jul 23, 2009 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike
funny you, bringing up Ryan Clady.
There is no license for comparing a 1st round #12 overall pick to an undrafted rookie, but I too thought of Clady when musing on Baker.
I thought about how clady went against ‘lesser’ competition, about how unique Clady’s athleticism was, about his unsual size, arm length, handsize, etc….
Baker needs to practice a good measure of self-discipline, privation, and humility, in order to understand his place on the Broncos. I think if he does that, the roster is his oyster.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should note
that I NEVER endorse privation and humility, as I am quite a heathen myself, but in this case I will make an exception.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always endorse privation and humility
Other peoples, of course…
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 24, 2009 8:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is from the DL breakdown on denverbroncos.com
Head Coach Josh McDaniels and defensive coordinator Mike Nolan have brought with them a 3-4 defense designed to attack and confuse opposing offenses — while at the same time allowing more freedom for defensive linemen.
What it means for some of the linemen is that they will have to start transitioning from a one-gap assigment to a two-gap. Essentially that means the nose tackle, for example, can either go to the left or right of the center, rather than being assigned to one gap or the other.
“In the two-gap, you have a little bit of freedom,” Marcus Thomas said. “That’s what I like — just get up field, make plays in the backfield and create havoc.”
We’ve been getting some info from players who state that they’re learning a one-gap formation (which is what Nolan taught at SF) and now we have this piece. Could be a bit of skulduggery by McD and company, but it’s worth noting for right now that both are being taught but the current info out of TOA camps is of a two gap.
By the way, Fields’ Tales is here. Mike Lombardi of the NFP said,
“Excellent power player and if a team wants to run a 3-4, he is the perfect player. He will make a ton of money in the market.”
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 23, 2009 3:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw that this morning....
right before my article posted. :) Arrgh!
I believe my exact words upon reading “2-gap” were, “You’ve got to be sh1tting me…”
I CANNOT WAIT to breakdown the defensive tape from the preseason….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go with your gut.
No team worth their salt is going to just come out and say what they’re running. Some info we’re getting says 2 gap, and some says 1 gap. We can look at Nolan’s history, McDaniels’ history, our player types, and a host of quotes from players, coaches, and the team’s official site and get a lot of different views.
I’m going with your view, that we play a one gap (at least at first). But we won’t know for sure until the pre-season.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
question about 2-gap
could you breakdown Thomas’ comment a little bit, where he says
"In the two-gap, you have a little bit of freedom," Marcus Thomas said. "That’s what I like — just get up field, make plays in the backfield and create havoc."
Is he talking about choosing the lesser of two gaps (so to speak) so as to have more options for penetrating quickly?
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 25, 2009 2:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think what he's saying....
…is that he simply likes the 2-gap for the reason most guys do; you get to pick what you do.
In a friendly game of back yard football we enjoy ourselves because we have the freedom to play as we want. Football (from youth up through the pros) is very scripted, and depends on everyone doing what they are supposed to do as defined exactly by the play. One reason I love the FS position is that he often gets to be the one player on the field who gets to be a true individual, the one true “free” player (hence the importance of intelligence for the position).
In a one gap, the player knows what he is going (has) to do. But in the two gap, the player gets to decide for himself what he will do. (Not all of the time. He may have a specific gap to hit in a blitz for example.)
Amongst DLmen, there are bragging rights associated with being called a 2 gap player. For one, you are typicaly recognized as a big guy. Second, you get to call your own shots on most running plays.
I don’t think he is refering to quick penetration, lesser gaps, or anything as thought provoking. In my opinion, he’s just saying what any DLman would say: he really gets to enjoy thinking for himself instead of being scripted every play. It is a treat for any DLman to play 2 gap.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 25, 2009 5:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best...
…in a very fine series, IMO. Thanks.
I would have voted for 1, 2 and 6 if I could. I can see some real potential here…and am reasonably sure that my optimism isn’t just the manifestation of my big, fat, orange-pumping homer heart.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer
by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 23, 2009 3:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
thank you
I see the potential too, but I can’t help but worry about Powell and Thomas. I hope the dialogs and relationship they are building with their new coaches is strong, deep, and filled with benevolent faith in each other. That relationship could make or break our Dline this year….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice work Styg!
I voted for Powell. I think he can anchor the point of attack, he is strong and a great run stuffer. He finds his way to the ball carrier in traffic. I really think the league may eventually be moving to bigger, run stuffing 5 Techniques out of the 3-4. I heard that Green Bay was experimenting with Raji in the 5tech and I wouldn’t be supprised to see Fields play out there more as well.
I think if you can generate pressure with the blitzing line backers than bigger ends will help against the run, if they can penetrate that’s just gravy.
Moreno in 2009! - Check
Taylor Mays in 2010!
by Steve O' on Jul 23, 2009 3:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
If I voted, I would vote Powell too
I got a very good feel of Powell from hsi college film, and a more selfless space-eater, we could not ask for. I love his confidence,too, as referenced by his comment about “I stop them at the line or behind the line.”
That is awesome stuff right there, and from everything else I have seen with Carlton, he is not one to make an idle boast. Hope he is 100% healthy.
Oh and just fo rthe fun of it: WE GOT MORENO!!
(flying chest bump)
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can still make me smile!
Man, i am so pumped up for opening Day…27 is going to look so good! Dude, we got Moreno!! And hopefully for a long long time too…I want to start seeing our Superstars sign more than one contract with Denver!
Moreno in 2009! - Check
Taylor Mays in 2010!
by Steve O' on Jul 24, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will be watching closely
I’ll be at camp next Friday and I will try to get a good feel for the tackles, ends and Moreno, plus any sleepers. You can see a lot. Last yr, for example, you could easily see that Moss doesn’t have anything, Holland was way too fat, and Clady had strong competitive instincts and was going come strong. I saw Dumerville beat him, the next play he staggerd Dumerville with a smack in the face guard.
Personally Baker was my 3rd or 4thchoice at tackle for the Broncos, and when they picked him up as a free agent, I was stocked.
I’ll watch Powell, Askew and Paker and see if they have a prayer.
Love your post Styg, I’m always happy to see your stuff.
"Kool-Aid Kool Aid, Tastes Great, We Want Kool Aid, Can't Wait"
by littletinybroncos on Jul 23, 2009 3:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
great point about competitiveness
in the end, coaching or no, these guys have to WANT it. Can’t wait to see what your eyes pick up in camp!
In partricular on downlinemen, watch for their speed geting off the snap, and the quickness getting up and into their rush. Hand speed is a good measure as well, and they should be kkeeping our olines hands out of their chests….though they may need some luck there! :) Look up Firstfan if you get the chance, he has a ton of evaluation criteria he will be trying to hand out at camp, and is a topnotch guy to boot.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good call Styg.
In partricular on downlinemen, watch for their speed geting off the snap…
This was my single most important skill to watch for with DLmen when I coached. I had a ton of game film that (slowed down) demonstrated that no other variable was nearly as important as coming off the snap first (for both OL and DL). The value of firing off the line before the opponent goes beyond being critical. It is nearly everything. Any DLman I ever coached will tell you that our team focused on it to the point that kids were sick of hearing about it. But no practice went by without it being stressed.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another fine set of assembled words Styg
I don’t think that Parker will make the final roster either. But to be truthful, Defensive Line knowledge has never been a strength for my interests. Thanks for the write up.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 23, 2009 3:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
my only thought is
that Parker is a big body. But 5 teams in 3 years? He would need a miracle, and Shanny isn’t around anymore to rescue those kinds of players.
I agree, he is probably gone.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Styg for the fine work..
Good analysis and break down of what the Broncos currently have to work with in DT’s.
I believe Fields location change (SF to Den) may have gotten his attention some and expect him to play hard for a starting role. Baker would probably tell you the competition is pretty tough at the FCS level, so he may not be as far off the curve as you think. He may be the best surprise of the whole undrafted bunch.
by bchiper on Jul 23, 2009 4:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll talk about this a bit more in a reply down below
but I am in no way trying to knock Hampton. As a Boise State fan, I throw no stones when it comes to talking about conference or team talent. I am a strong believer that not much separates the first round of the draft from the last round (but that little bit is IT), these are people after all, not versions of hardware or software.
If I could communicate one thing from watching Chris at Hampton, it is that I don’t think HE was particularly challenged. Body language, got lost on plays and against players he never should have, missed opportunities to dominate….
He didn’t have to grow to excel there, which I think was the motivation for his coach saying that he wished Baker had stayed one more year and gained that extra year of learning and preparation.
Hope you are right about a scenery change for Fields. I hope the payday doesn’t negatively affect him at all, though mys uspicion is that he will buy right into an “us against the world” mentality, and I think that is exactly the potion that McD is brewing….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 3:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Styg.
What stood out to me the most was the number of players that I had slotted in my mind (and my spreadsheet) at DE that showed up here at NT. Similarly, the guys I figured were most NT-ish (Fields and Baker) sound like they may play some DE. This will be fascinating to watch! : )
by NedBronco on Jul 23, 2009 4:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
When Guru got us all lined out on this series
Broncobear, NYC and myself began to hash out who got what out of the DLs and LBs. What we came up with was less than ideal, but effective and timely. I would love to cover E-Ped at DT, among others. I couldn’t agree more, this should be a HUGE learning experience, and I can’t wait to see some action!
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i could see
thomas, fields, powell, and baker all playing NT this year. probably be shifting these guys around alot. But interested to see what you guys see from camp.
by Skotty on Jul 23, 2009 5:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I really think Baker has the best chance to surprise
But I think NT will probably be a rotational position this year with guys like Baker, Fields and Parker taking shifts, I really think Thomas is more suited to playing end, I think he will get wore down and bull dozed as a NT, maybe shift him there onobvious passing downs, but I rather have him as an end IMO.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 23, 2009 5:51 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You and Skotty have it nailed
rotation, rotation, rotation. Fresh bodies are ideal for what? Attacking, one-gap rush defensive lines. I have thought a lot about Thomas at DE, and he definitely fits….
I suspect he might be looking this froma roster math point of view as well. He wants to focus on NT because of the lack we have in that area. I think his ceiling is #1 DE, #2 NT, but that is still a 16 game starter on any defense, and I think he just wants to be in the game. After notching 57 tackles last year, I think he is starting to get his appetite back! And as long as it isn’t the munchies, we should be ok… (lowblow, I know…:))
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It should be a fun training camp to watch..
I think you can count on several of these young men to entertain while busting their humps to make this football team. There is considerable raw talent and with a DC who has been described as a “hard ass” by some, I believe we will have a learning curve with this defense. That said, I will enjoy watching people who will work hard and continue to get better!
Bring on Training Camp! Hurry! Hurry! Hurry!
Thanks and kudos, Styg! Definitely rec’d!
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
by hairybear on Jul 23, 2009 6:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
That said, I will enjoy watching people who will work hard and continue to get better!
Amen. Part of what I like about watching college kids, is how much effort they put into their games, for their teamates and for their future. the last couple fo years it has been my refuge, because I just haven’t been seeing that from the Broncos.
This year, that changes.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sentiments exactly
The thing about the last couple of Shanny teams is they failed to inspire not only in the win-loss department but also in their collective attitude and approach— especially on defense. Only a handful of guys showed any heart consistently on defense, and one of them— Nate Webster— simply couldn’t play. Hopefully the considerable competition along the dline and for the outside linebacker slots will rub off on the unit as a whole. Since the the start of modern FA, I’ve always felt that the talent level between most teams is miniscule and the real difference is the attitute and cohesiveness of the team. More so than changing schemes and personnel, McX is changing the culture, and I think thats going to translate big time eventually…maybe not in 2009…but soon, and in a big way.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer
by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 24, 2009 7:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
As always Styg, a pleasure to read,
I voted Thomas, although as others 1, 2, or 6 could surprise.
A special note on Baker ( from one of your articles I believe? )
When they brought in Baker—did’nt he say he had a major chip
on his shoulder by not being drafted. Might be the training camp
surprise, you were looking for…
I am so looking forward to this season…
Go Broncos
Rec’d
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Jul 23, 2009 6:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
He did say that
I just hope he doesn’t get ahead of himself. He also mentioned how one of his goals was to be an All Rookie selection. I like that the goal is specific, but I worry… what happens when that goal conflicts with the team winning a game? Does he have it securely rated benath winning as a team? Is that second nature to him? One team (Penn) let him down, to some degree (this is debateable, and many facts would need to come to light),a nd he didn’t think enough of his Hampton coach to seek his guidance on entering the draft early, so I wonder how far he is going to go on his own before he lets himself become part of this team?
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better then DE group, but not elite
Thanks, Styg. This group looks more promising then DEs, but again nobody is a proven contributor on NFL level. And it takes time even with the best coaching and for the best prospects. Look, Texans took Mario Williams with #1 pick 3 years ago. And only in his 3rd year he started to look the part of #1 pick – and still not quite. DL positions are difficult to learn.
I really pull for Chris Baker – what a story would it make if he succeeds. And Carlton Powell, too, absolutely. And I want Marcus Thomas to succeed, too – he is my best bet actually, because of invaluable 2 years he spent in the league already. BTW, your blurb says drafted 2002?
So I hope Baker makes the roster, but I do not expect him to contribute this year. He needs time to become a pro.
This is the weakness of our DL corps compared to secondary – it is all youth and potential. Our secondary is structured almost perfectly – we have amazingly good veteran starters with talented young understudies learning from them. On DL, quality veterans are missing, which will makes rookies’ already difficult learning even more so.
So my expectations for the DL are low for this year – but I have hope. I will not judge the line this year if it does not play well. But I hope to see signs of improvement and flashes of future greatness.
13-3, baby!
by si_ice on Jul 23, 2009 6:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Flashing would be nice
my fisrt hopw is that they all are haelthy right up to final roster cuts. It seems like a great group, and I think they deserve that chance.
Also, i couldn’t find the mistake you mention about “drafted 2002.” If you could elaborate, that would be great.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's in the box with Marcus Thomas' photo
Acquired:Draft #4 (121st overall), 2002
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 24, 2009 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
corrected
and I’ve requested an update for Thomas’ data cloud here on SBNation.
Thanks guys!!
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
over inflated expectation for #1 picks
MW gets 14 sacks and was a force against the run in one of the keystone positions for an NFL defense, and you say he was still “not quite” worth the #1 pick? The guy is probably a top 5 DE (4-3) in the NFL and he’s “not quite” there yet? Jared Allen, Julius Peppers, Trent Cole, maybe Justin Tuck/Aaron Kampman… I’m hard pressed to name another 4-3 DE I’d take over Mario Williams. Very few DE’s combine his elite pass rushing skills with such solid run D… most other DE’s do one or the other… Your expectation seems a touch inflated….
That said, your point about D-line taking awhile to develop is spot on… its takes D-linemen a bit to adjust to the NFL, which may prove difficult this year, but provides good hope for the future.
Sadly, D-line I think will be what holds this team back in 2009… but I hope some consistency, a year of player development, and a better back-end (LBs and Safetys) that limits the damage inflicted can at least start ot let us sort the wheat from the chaff for future years….
by cjfarls on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent work for detail
@styg50…
I must correct one comment you had about Chris Baker " trench warfare he saw at Hampton leaves him ill-prepared ….. It is doubtful that he becomes a major contributor this year, …. and prepping for a stint on the practice squad this season. "
Two things are missing, first, you Conveniently left out that he had EXCELLENT trench warfare at Penn State, where he lead the defense to a 7th rating in 2007.
Next is that you do not mention that four other teams are transitioning to a 3-4 defense this year, so Chris Baker, Rulon Davis, or Everrett Pedescleaux WILL NOT PASS WAIVERS to make it to the practice squad.
IMO DL Coach Wayne Nunnely will rotate 6 DL (nt & de) players. They are very versatile so position may not matter.
by DLMyers on Jul 23, 2009 7:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
DL I agree...
There is a LOT of teams transitioning to 3-4, and thats not including those teams that are already 3-4.
For teams like the Pats, Ravens and Steelers, they will covert guys like E Ped, Baker and Davis because they already have proven players, and they can afford to put them spot duty on the roster.
I would rather see Denver throw these guys in the deep end and let them learn under fire, AND keep them on the roster than lose some guys with real athleticism, character and upside to teams like these guys. 1 to 2 seasons of learning for 8 years of dominance and performance…..I will take that!!!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jul 23, 2009 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
With so many questions about who and where, rotating the positions is probably the best way to approach the start of the season.
Coaches can see where people start to fit, and fresh players may help to offset the lack of experience.
With the lack of a veteran 3-4 in the lineup, maybe rotating the players will help them to gain some of the awareness of how to play as a unit, as they will intimately know what the other guys are supposed to be doing, and what happens when execution is lacking in the position that they are playing.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Jul 23, 2009 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree and disagree...
Agree that this is excellent work from styg50…
Disagree that these guys won’t pass waivers. Let’s not forget that all the teams had already passed on them once in the draft. Then, they all made less than concerted effort (at least, less than the Broncos’) to sign them as UFA. It would be a stretch to think that they would all of a sudden want to add them to the 53-men roster without bring them into camp first.
Of course if they tear up the camp, it’s a moot point. Broncos would just keep them on the roster in that case.
I think we might see Baker on the roster, but I think Ped and Davis are going to the PS.
by BuckarooBanzai on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Disagree that these guys won’t pass waivers."
I think you may be right, and for the reasons you stated. It would be more than interesting to know if any other teams made free agent offers to Baker, Davis or Pedescleaux and, if so, by how much did the Broncos better those offers. As I recall, all three of these guys were signed by the Broncos very soon after the draft ended so maybe there wasn’t much interest in them. Anyway, you can bet that McD and X know all of that, and that knowledge will play a big role in any decision to waive any of these guys and hope they don’t get claimed by another team during the 24 hour waiver wire period. Other factors to consider in this regard are injuries to teams that give them a need at the positions Baker, Davis and Ped play.
The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.
Chuang - Tzu
by bradley on Jul 24, 2009 7:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks DLM
I talked about this a little bit above, but I certainly didn’t mean to disparage Hampton or Hampton’s conference play, and I definitely didn’t intend to ignore that he played for Penn. I figured on Bear’s excellent piece filling in most of the blanks like that on Baker, which is why I linked it…no need to say something twice, especially when said so well the first time… but you are right, I certainly wasn’t clear enough in my intentions, nor thorough enough.
I would like to clarify that my thought here is that Baker himself wasn’t challenged deeply enough at Hampton, and that indeed, if we were to really break it down, that perhaps going to Hampton period was about avoiding challenges. It could be quite a discussion on this point, methinks. By proxy, one of the things he avoided was the more consistent level of paly he could have expected at Penn, even though he likley didn’t intend to avoid that part at all…
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
maybe rotating the players will help them to gain some of the awareness of how to play as a unit, as they will intimately know what the other guys are supposed to be doing, and what happens when execution is lacking in the position that they are playing.
Good call odarol. I can definitely see them benefiting from that.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Jul 23, 2009 10:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I have often wondered
whether the Diline benefited as much as the oline when it came to playing together for longer stretches of time. I haven’t seen or heard anything terribly conclusive on the subject, and I have never played on the dline, so it remains an unanswered question.
I do think that it doesn’t have as much effect, but I am decidedly unsure as to whether it couldn’t….
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fwiw...
My view has always been that the OL must play much more as a unit than the DL.
The OL must coordinate on the fly in order to protect the QB, knowing what the tendency of team mates are in order to know what needs to be done. This is doubled when run blocking in a zone block program. Thus, an OLman must be flexible, and base his in play decisions on what he knows the guy next to him is likely to do.
On the defensive side of things, a DLman has an assignement and rigorously sticks to it (making him more of an individual).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great breakdown! REC'd
Very thorough and realistic breakdown. I enjoyed the learning. Id really love to see a grade of each position from styg50.
by elvisalex on Jul 24, 2009 12:15 AM MDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
appreciate it elvisalex
and I love seeing how this community sees all these players as well.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2009 4:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
On Fields.
One thing I’ll say for him is that I’m guessing Nolan sees enough from Fields that he wanted to bring him to Denver. I know the story is that he (Fields) was being moved towards being a back-up in SF, but my impression was that he might be getting groomed to take over at NT down the road. Just my opinion though. I might be little higher on Fields than most.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 24, 2009 9:06 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Fields will be a surprise to most this year too.
I share in your thinking HT. I am higher on Fields than most as well.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Jul 24, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fields
because of his familiarity with Nolans 3-4 type of defence was brought in to provide some leadership to the younger guys. Does this mean he will get a significant amount of playing time? Only time will tell with that. We have a very solid Linebacking group and a strong secondary, which will give Nolan the ability to start the younger guys and have them learn as they go. I think that the linebackers and secondary can cover for the dline for the first 6-8 weeks. By that time the dline shoud have a good grasp of the defence and their roll and can start to carry their own weigth has we get to the tougher part of the schedule. Just my thought on this. I can be way off base with this but it does make some sense to me.
by papasteven on Jul 24, 2009 9:54 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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