2009 Denver Broncos - Breaking Down the Roster - The Linebackers
by Emmett Smith on Jul 25, 2009 11:30 AM MDT
in 2009 Season Preview
36 comments
Our 2009 Denver Broncos Preview concludes with today's section on the Linebackers. This is, perhaps, the group that has seen the most change from the forgettable performances of the 2008 season. The move to a base 3-4, using an attacking two-gap approach (which several players have indicated that they are learning) and being varied at time in some hybrid form (such as a 4-3 under or over) is about the farthest thing possible from the speed-oriented base 4-3 approach of the Broncos' past. However, it harkens back to a day when Joe Collier pulled the strings on a fierce defense.
In a 3-4 defense, the linebacking corps is broken down into the inside linebackers and the outside linebackers. The naming is different from the 4-3; some 3-4 systems, such as San Diego, refers to the 4th linebacker as the "Mo," while others use terms such as "Jack" and even "elephant." We know that DJ Williams has disclosed that he's playing the 'Jack', but no matter how you talk about them, the inside backers are often used to stuff the run and clog the middle.
Hoosierteacher's take on the 3-4 Inside Linebackers:
This brings me to the ILBs. They can be fast or big or a good mix, much like in the 4-3, but with a twist. Because the DL has one less man (even though 3-4 teams fight to acquire double coverage demanding players), the ILBs tend to have one common trait. Their skill set must include the ability to shed run blockers, or they just won't be an asset.
The first two moves that Denver made to restructure its linebackers (after axing Nate Webster and Jamie Winborn) were to bring in Andra Davis, the great mentor of our future linebacking corps, from Cleveland; the second move was to sit down with DJ Williams and to bring him on board. Davis has played in the 3-4 previously and brings knowledge and expertise in the formation and in the world of the NFL. DJ is moving to yet another position but is doing so with class and enthusiasm. That solidifies the starting ILB. Mario Haggan is a candidate as a backup ILB, but he'll have lots of competition.
Hoosierteacher's take on the 3-4 Outside Linebackers:
Wide alignment is the name of the game. The OLBs are more likely to be in place for wide blitzes than their 4-3 counterparts (though the 4-3 OLBs have more help at the line). They are more likely to be in better position for runs to the outside. They are more likely to have passes come their way for INTs (because the midfield features more LBs and thus more zone potential in that area). In short, the OLBs have more chances for "glory" plays, but the tradeoff is that they are sharing the glory plays with three other LBs instead of two.
It's obvious that we are waiting to see if players like Jarvis Moss and Robert Ayers can drop into coverage effectively. If not, they will be exposed quickly and their schemes and situations will be modified. If they can do so - the Broncos can look at a substantial rise in their defensive ranking. There is no shortage of players who can play the outside.
The outside linebacking group is extensive because of where so many candidates came from: many of the players had started at other positions last year. Elvis Dumervil and Jarvis Moss are two familiar names. They are joined by rookie Robert Ayers, Tim Crowder and special teams ace Darrell Reid, creating an OLB option of big, strong, fast players who can rush the QB or stop the run. They will be joined in turn by College Free Agent Lee Robinson and last year's smaller rookie powerhouse Wesley Woodyard, either of whom can play outside or in. The final pieces of the training camp puzzle include backup LB (probably ILB) Spencer Larsen, who will spend time at FB and on special teams as a gunner, and perennial special-teams player Nick Greisen, who could play inside or out.
This is what DJ Williams had to say about the new scheme:
"Williams described it as "swarming," and talked about the fact that the team plans on utilizing the strengths of individual players to be able to dominate matchups all over the field.
"We've got a lot more packages, a lot of disguises, a lot of different things," he said. "We can have a lot of fun and highlight certain players and what they can do.""
The Players
Here's a brief listing on each of our players, starting with the inside linebackers.
Andra Davis
#54 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-1
250
Dec 23, 1978
Florida
2/28/2009: Signed a two-year contract.
None
Davis is an eighth-year linebacker who spent his first seven NFL seasons with Cleveland, which selected him in the fifth round (141st overall) of the 2002 NFL Draft from the University of Florida. He has played 105 career regular-season games (83 starts), totaling 908 tackles (557 solo), 8.5 sacks (60 yds.), eight interceptions (72 yds.), 28 pass breakups, four forced fumbles and two fumble recoveries.
A 16-game starter three times during his career, Davis has started at least 10 games in each of the previous six seasons with Cleveland. He started all 16 games for the Browns in 2008 and finished second on the club with 134 tackles (72 solo) while posting one interception.
Davis led the Browns with a career-high 207 tackles (119 solo) as a 16-game starter for the club in 2005. His five sacks with Cleveland in 2003 were a personal best and tied for the seventh-highest total among AFC linebackers.
Andra should play LILB.
D.J. Williams
#55 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-1
240
Jul 20, 1982
Miami-Florida
9/6/2008: Signed a six-year, $32 million contract. The deal includes $13 million guaranteed. 2009: 4.1 million (+ $4.5 million "signing bonus"), 2010: $3 million, 2011: $4.9 million, 2012: $5 million, 2013: $6 million, 2014: Free Agent. Cap charge: $11.635 million (2009).
Left the MIA game (11/2) with a knee injury but returned against Carolina (12/12). Had offseason surgery on a torn rotator cuff, right shoulder, for which he is finishing rehab
DJ has dealt with near-constant changes in position and done well with each prior to last season. He managed to achieve a team-high 170 tackles the previous season at middle linebacker before being moved yet again to the outside last season. This year DJ takes on a new challenge - moving to the right-inside linebacking slot in the 3-4. When the Broncos utilize an under or over formation, you can bet that he will be manning the Mike position. DJ is stout against the run and also has the skill to penetrate after the QB in the right scheme. He has started at least 14 games per season each year and regularly plays through injuries. He's a strong brick in the front-7 wall and Mike Nolan is looking for big things out of DJ in the 2009 season.
In his 4th season, DJ is going to play his 4th (5th, if you count a change back to WLB) and hopefully last position by starting at RILB. This is what he had to say:
"I'm enjoying what it is so far," he said of his spot on the defense. "Like I said, this is my first day out, but just being in the film rooms and Coach telling me, 'On this play you have this, on this play you have that.' I like that, because 'this' and 'that' is what I like to do."
At 26 years of age, DJ is in the prime of his professional career and the new coaches have approached him and gained his agreement, and apparently, his trust. Look for DJ to give them big things this year.
Wesley Woodyard
#59 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-1
230
Jul 21, 1986
Kentucky
4/29/2008: Signed a three-year, $1.175 million contract. The deal included a $20,000 signing bonus. 2009: $385,000, 2010: $475,000, 2011: Restricted Free Agent
None noted
The undersized Wesley Woodyard brought Broncos fans to their feet last season, averaging 9 tackles per game started. He ranked 6th among rookies last year in total tackles with 55 (his 20 preseason tackles do not count on his NFL stats) and was an effective contributor who was probably underutilized. While there is not an obvious position for Woodyard, who is light yet plays and hits with great power, you can count on him to be near the front on special teams. Mike Nolan is also sure to find a role for the strong, effervescent young player.
Spencer Larsen
#46 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-2
240
Mar 04, 1984
Arizona
2008: Signed a four-year, $1.801 million contract. The deal included a $97,500 signing bonus. 2009: $385,000, 2010: $470,000, 2011: $555,000, 2012: Free Agent
Larsen experienced a groin injury that kept him out for 2 games in 2008
While Larsen will also fill in at fullback, he is a ferocious special-teams player who can also back up the starters at ILB. His lack of in-line speed is minimized by the new 3-4 scheme, whichever form it may take. His 19 tackles plus 3 assists (NFL.com) may not seem like much, but his presence on the field seemed to translate to instant effort and he notched 9 more special teams tackles as well as making national highlight reels twice in the first four games. One of the veterans last year noted disdainfully that first-year players 'can't be leaders' since veterans won't listen. With Davis on board, Larsen has a chance to develop as a player and a leader. No matter the role he settles into, you can be sure that he will be a vocal, hardworking team player.
Larsen also provided a unique aspect of the game by being the Broncos' first three-way player (11/16, ATL), playing as a linebacker, fullback and special-teams gunner in a single game. He was the only Denver player in history to start on both sides of the ball. Although he suffered with bumps and multiple bruises without leaving any games, Larsen did miss two games in December of last season with a groin injury. He would come back to play through it at the end of the season (12/28 SD).
When asked about this year, he replied,
"Whatever they have me do, I'm excited about it and I'll do my best with it."
Next, we have the outside linebackers:
Jarvis Moss
#94 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-6
265
Aug 03, 1984, Denton TX
Florida
7/28/2007: Signed a five-year, $15 million contract. The deal includes $8 million guaranteed. Another $3 million is available through incentives. 2009: $660,000, 2010: $750,000, 2011: $850,000, 2012: Free Agent
None
Jarvis Moss is perhaps the most intriguing option on the Broncos' 2009 linebacking corps. Moss was drafted 17th in the 1st round by Mike Shanahan, a move that confounded many fans and analysts. He suffered multiple health problems in high school and in college and was injured again (broken leg) in his first season with Denver. Despite his 1st-round expectations, Moss was probably a 3rd- or 4th-round player, one with a great deal of potential in the 3-4 scheme but who was too light and not technically proficient enough to play in the 4-3. As a result of these factors, Moss' career so far has disappointed many.
But he is quick, fast, and has skills both in rushing the quarterback and (so we're told) dropping back into coverage. As a result, he could yet develop into a solid rotational player at the OLB slot. He isn't stout at the point of attack and can be soft against the run, however, so his usage may continue to be situational. He is probably not an every-down player, but he might be able to contribute substantially in the new 3-4 scheme. If not, this could be his last season in Denver.
Mario Haggan
#57 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-3
263
Mar 03, 1980
Mississippi State
2009: $620,000, 2010: Free Agent
None
Haggan was signed on 11/4. He saw action in eight games in 2008 and recorded 20 tackles. Originally selected by Buffalo in the seventh round (228th overall) of the 2003 NFL Draft, Mario Haggan is a big, strong player who is stout at the point of attack.Haggan is like Reid in that he's not fast, but he is big and strong and he has been a standout at special teams.
As I told you last November, Mario Haggan is a happy guy by nature and a good addition to the locker room. Still, it will be tough for him to make the squad. Mario's strengths are his size and power, but he's more quick than fast and doesn't always make great decisions. His lack of speed is countered in part by the scheme, but the Broncos have a lot of good linebackers. He is talented on special teams, however, and will have training camp to make his case to be retained. He could even move to the inside to reduce the issues of speed and coverage.
Nick Greisen
#85 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-1
250
Aug 10, 1979
Wisconsin
4/28/2009: Signed a one-year contract.
None Reported
Nick may be here to improve our special teams more than anything else. The 8-year pro will have to bring a lot to the table to make this talented squad. In 2008, Greisen totaled five solo tackles on defense and placed fifth on Baltimore with 12 special-teams stops in 14 games (1 start). He also tied for the team lead with three special-teams tackles while appearing in all three of the Ravens' postseason contests.
In 2007, he saw action in 14 games and started two for the Ravens, amassing 38 tackles (22 solo) and a fumble recovery while adding 13 special-teams stops. He paced the club in tackles in each of his two starting assignments. It's possible that Greisen could be placed at the inside. However, with the depth and strength of this year's candidates, I expect Greisen to be hard-pressed to make this squad.
OLB/DE
The next few players will probably move from the OLB position to the DE position depending on the down and distance. They are in many ways the pieces that should be mainstays in the new hybrid 3-4/4-3 or 5-2 formations. Each can play with his hand down when required and stand up if that suits the situation.
6-2 288 Jun 20, 1982 Minnesota 2/28/2009: Signed a three-year, $6.8 million contract. The deal included a $1.3 million signing bonus. Another $2.8 million is available through sack and playing-time incentives. 2009-2011: Under Contract, 2012: Free Agent None
Darrell Reid
#95 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
At 6'2" and 288 lbs, Reid made a career as a special-teams ace (his hit on Chris Henry is YouTube legend) but is being looked at for a brand-new role on this defense. His size, speed and power are equally useful standing or with his hand on the turf. He is in the process of shedding 20+ lbs and aiming for a final weight of about 265 lbs. Although he is big for the usual role of an OLB, Reid is both quick and fast, a fact that should be aided by his attempt to lose weight. It's worth considering that Shawne Merriman plays in a penetrating 3-4 (Phillips variation) and he weighs 274 lb. A lot of fans will be watching this one closely - after watching film of Reid as a gunner on special teams, seeing if he can make the switch from an undersized DE/DT to a big, powerful OLB/DE could be one of the best stories of the 2009 season. He does have a history of character incidents, however, so he's going to have to cleave to the straight and narrow to stay on the Broncos. Reid has also played as a short-yardage and goal-line fullback to add to ST, OLB, DE and DT.
Tim Crowder
#96 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-4
275
Jun 30, 1985
Texas
7/27/2007: Signed a four-year, $3 million contract. The deal included a $1.31 million signing bonus. 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Free Agent
Injuries: None
Tim Crowder
#96 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
6-4
275
Jun 30, 1985
Texas
7/27/2007: Signed a four-year, $3 million contract. The deal included a $1.31 million signing bonus. 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Free Agent
Injuries: None
Tim is another cipher on the Broncos' roster. He's entering his third season and he, like Moss, was probably a better fit at the 3-4 OLB than the true 4-3 front. Crowder is finally getting a chance to show his level of skill and versatility. One item of note is that pro-football-reference.com has him listed at 272 lb while the updated Denver Broncos website has him at 260. He may be faster at this new weight. Although rarely used, Crowder has a great deal of skill, as shown by the fact that he had a sack in three consecutive games in 2007, becoming the first Bronco to achieve that in 3 years.
Elvis Dumervil
#92 / Linebacker / Denver Broncos
5-11
260
Jan 19, 1984
Louisville
2009: $535,000, 2010: Free Agent
None currently
Elvis Dumervil came into the league with the constant chatter of the words, 'Too small, too light' flitting around him, but he brushed them off as easily as he does linemen and tailbacks, quickly showing that he can be a great contributor against the pass. He is smaller, which he uses to his advantage in leverage, but he has long, powerful arms and big hands which he uses effectively to keep tackles, fullbacks and running backs off of himself while his speed can take him around the edge to create pressure on the quarterbacks. He has a surprisingly effective bull rush as well as swim and rip moves that frustrate his foes. He is not as strong against run blocking on the line, taking on tackles, but that should be minimized by using him properly in situations where the DEs tie up the linemen and create opportunities for Doom one-on-one against TEs and running backs. His strengths and weaknesses also add up to a situational player, but one who can be very effective if used right. If he cannot make the change, he'll be a free agent in 2010. If he does well, look for the Broncos to restructure his contract later this season.
Robert Ayers has been touted by some analysts as the Steal of the Draft, a phrase that has traveled around the Denver looker room a great deal this year. Various analysts have used it for Moreno, Ayers and for Smith - I've read one analyst each claiming that about McBath, Quinn and Bruton, while a few have called Fields the Steal of the Offseason. Several commentators have called Ayers the best defensive player in the draft (and another pundit used that on Alphonso Smith). At 6'3" and 274 lbs. he is about 10+ pounds light of being a mainstay 3-4 DE (a weight that many have suggested that he has the frame to carry well), yet he offers both quickness and power, particularly against the run. Hoosierteacher has noted that he is far better against the pass than his sack numbers show; he's a player who consistently penetrates into the backfield and gets pressure on the quarterback. He offers power and versatility on the outside. Ayers has no injury concerns and has not yet signed his contract.
And, we also have a more traditional OLB option in a CFA:
Although he's played mostly at OLB, Robinson can play any of the four LB slots. While his competition will be tough, he's a very strong young player who has decent coverage skills and who brings a nice combination of power and quickness. He's currently a long shot to make the squad, but he reminds me of Wesley Woodyard in his enthusiasm for the game and his hitting.
Full House: Those who have an interest in things draft-oriented may recall the discussions of why the Broncos did not take Brian Orakpo as well as Ayers. Looking at the options of Ayers, Moss, Doom, Crowder, Haggan, Greisen and Reid, not to mention Woodyard and Lee Robinson, you have to take into account the reality of the numbers game. Not all of these players will make the cut, a fact that is troubling emotionally, since we grow attached to the players, but encouraging in that this year we have a long list of men who could play, and play well for us. Since having too many first-year players can hamper production in the early going, another rookie choice in this group would have been of little benefit. We have a versatile, deep and strong squad this year. I would suggest that Davis and Williams will start inside while Reid, Doom, Ayers will start (in any order) on the outside. Woodyard, Larsen, Robinson and Moss would be my choices as backups, but training camp brings many surprises and any of these men could make the team. The continued (and very welcome) emphasis on garnering special teams talent might provide an opportunity for Haggan or Greisen, but both will not stay and it's quite possible that neither will make it.
Looking Forward: This year will bring many chances to cheer and to despair, to venerate and excoriate, to have the highest snow-kissed peaks and deepest valleys of fan experience. No team goes through this kind of massive restructuring without challenges, problems and setbacks. We have, however, a far better team than we did last season. I know - it's not yet training camp. How can that be stated so plainly? I
It's really simple - in the words of Mark 'Stinky' Schlereth, the 2008 Broncos were filled with what are termed 'street veterans' - those players who, if not playing for Denver, would have been out on the street. Some of them have left football while others remain unemployed. They have been replaced by the likes of Andre' Goodman and Brian Dawkins, by Ron Fields and Correll Buckhalter. Some of the players we brought in are older and some younger, while others are in the prime of their careers. But taken as a whole, from coaching (who among us longs for the days of Jim or Jeremy Bates, or pines for the Schemes of (Bob) Slowik?) to draft choices, I can say equivocally that this team is better and deeper than the team we fielded last season.
I do not consider the job of restructuring the team well-done, but only well-started. The linebacking corp is that change in miniature - from the wisdom and mentoring of Andra Davis to the addition of rookie Robert Ayers, from the second-year rise of Wesley Woodyard to the veteran skills of DJ Williams and to the position changes of Moss, Doom and Reid, we have more leadership, more skill (did the choice between Niko or Webster thrill anyone?) and even more depth than we have in a few seasons. There are questions, yes - there always are when players change position and/or assignments. We are bigger - substantially bigger. We have moved from an essentially-failed attempt to use lighter speed players who ended up getting driven off the ball to stronger players who can be used in myriad ways.
We have more weight on the defensive line as well as at linebacker - the front seven, much debate as it has and will generate, is bigger and more powerful. Our ability to play hardnosed, physical football has increased and we have, much to my delight, an actual scheme. We will be drafting, trading for and acquiring as free agents more players who fit the mold over the next two seasons, but that doesn't take away from the start that has been made. While the Broncos will not be playing for a Super Bowl this season, that goal is coming closer thanks to a total makeover of a team that had sunk into mediocrity.
On offense, we can move from a running attack to a passing attack and from there to the options of a 3-TE set - employing Hillis as a TE in that case - without a single substitution. Will we? I cannot say, but the fact that we can gives credence to the versatility and talent that we can field at any time on offense. On defense, we can switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3 and from there to a 5-2 front, all with the same players in any number of combinations. That level of versatility will provide a platform on which to build and develop.
It will take time. It will not always be easy, but it's summer - our choices are endless, the competitions will be fierce, the opponents this season will not have been able to scout us i(n many cases) because the options that our coaches have chosen and will implement have not yet revealed themselves. This is a beautiful time, a bon chance. The Chinese character for crisis contains sub-characters for 'danger' and 'opportunity'. This time is both.
I'll close with the words of Ron Fields, which he posted on his website recently:
"I like head coach Josh McDaniels. He is a stand up guy and is up front and to the point. He lets you know what’s on his mind, he’s honest and tells you things straight. He tells you like it is, and doesn’t hold back. I like that. He’s a winner."
That says everything that we really need to hear right now. We have a winner at the helm, more power on the field and an unlimited opportunity to move forward as Broncos Nation. Bring on Training Camp! Go Broncos! Go MHR!
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Lee Robinson
reminds me of a yonger, faster version of Andra Davis…and that should be enough to get him into the reserves. IF he can fly around and hit some people on STs this year, he’ll give them no reason to cut him.
He is also very grounded and down to earth. I think he could be brought along well to man the “Ted” in our future.
There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 25, 2009 12:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
other opinions on Robinson
I see Robinson is getting picked by a lot people in Bronco Country’s roster challenge.
The contestants are a fairly knowledgeable bunch, so it’s significant.
I think Robinson’s chances of sticking depend on whether McDaniels decides to go with a large number of LBs — which is not unusual. My informal survey of 3-4 teams last year showed that it’s not unusual to carry ten or more LBs. And finally, I also see Robinson’s chances as hinging on his ability to play both inside and outside (besides STs).
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 26, 2009 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whew!
Thanks for sorting that out for us, Bear. It’s confusing as heck without sitting down to look closely at all the options. Hopefully (heh, I always thought Shanahan overused that term, but it is still summer), these guys can deal with the complexity of the scheming and free themselves to gel as a unit.
So many questions: Without the “traditional” 3-4 bulk on the line, will the LBs get the pursuit and penetration? How will Doom and Moss do standing up? How well will the new secondary stiffen the front seven? And so on…
I look forward to seeing how some of that shakes out in the next month; and thank you, Bear, for giving us a template to help follow development of this defense!
Exciting times – bring it on!
by MakeCents on Jul 25, 2009 12:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, MC
Yes, as we broke down who would take what players, the comment was made that we hoped that the opposing offenses are half as confused as the fans are. As far as ‘traditional’ bulk – keep in mind that we haven’t really established whether we’re going with a two gap or single gap approach – in other words, more of a Phillips 3-4 or more of a Bullough. HT has talked in the past about the fact that you can go with lighter players – they just have to be appropriate to the specific scheme. We are (substantially) bigger at LB over last year and we can field players of well over 300 lb – Thomas, Fields and Powell, for example, but we have quite a few other possibilities including some formations using Baker at DE or NT.
I did a comment on this recently, but we have the option of adding between 130 and 200 lbs of players on the front 7 compared to last year, if we choose to go that route. I believe that we will be working more of the DL and LB corps this offseason, but it’s a very good start.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 25, 2009 12:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I do recall your recent comment on the bulkier options up front.
And, I certainly know – as many have discussed in-depth here – that we’re in transition, and thus will see many looks this year. I assume that, as the character of the D evolves, we will experiment less, and come to rely on the right people in the right places with (hopefully :) exceptional execution for success.
My comment on the bulk was really invoking more the MSM or popular notion of a 3-4. (And prior to becoming a regular MHR reader this past year, that would probably describe me, too. After all, I’ve loved the fact that I could keep up with Broncos news from afar, but even the best reporters – Schefter, Legwold, and Klis – were just keeping me apprised of events, and not really teaching me the game to any degree).
I think it’s telling that we essentially have one LB returning (DJ) plus two rookies (Larsen and WW) that we started with last year; but we’re returning seven (!) linemen (Thomas, Moss, Crowder, Doom, Peterson, Clemmons, and Powell). Is that just the reality that stud FA linemen were mega-bucks, and the draft was weak and/or shallow in that regard? Or is it that the coaches saw that they had to do an extreme makeover on the secondary and linebackers (more than the line) to best improve the team? Some of both, no doubt…
Indeed, several times I saw our defense do OK last year when they got stuck with a short field (from turnovers and poor special teams play). It may be simplistic, but to me that and the players retained tell me our line wasn’t uniformly horrible last year; and if you get the guys in an appropriate scheme with good support behind them, then we’ll succeed.
No one will miss last year’s LBs (except opposing running backs and tight ends). It will be very interesting to see how these guys shape up. Thanks again, Bear, for the informative preview!
by MakeCents on Jul 25, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Bear
many intriguing storylines heading into training camp, alot of em revolve around the LBs. Thank you for the knowledge.
rec’d
you already know.
by justwhytee on Jul 25, 2009 12:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I sense we will see..
An updated and effective version of Collier’s defense this year. The key to that defense was the line backers. They covered the field from sideline to sideline and were ball hawks, every one.
It was said then that the weakness of the 3-4 was runs straight at it. But those linebackers never allowed that to be the case. This group will be the key this year to stopping the run, clogging the middle of the field and providing an unpredictable edge rush. I think of Ayers as being used very much like Merriman is in SD, only he may be even better at it.
Isn’t it time to start yet?
by AlanC on Jul 25, 2009 12:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What I like so much about our LB's
Is that we can play heavy or light packages depending on who we are playing or situational downs. I love the depth.
I think this is the year that Doom really shows us the stuff. I can see us packaging plays just for him. With a lot more to fear from the Bronco Defense (Ayers and the Ted block opening for D.J.) I think it opens Doom to up to terrorize the QB. Doom is used to taking on a O-line tackle. O-line tackles are paid only to stuff guys like Doom. However, if we package him to get picked up by a “Receiver TE” or a Blocking RB… My mouth waters.
The front 3 big boys, I think will hold there own. It will be a rotational front. I truly believe they won’t sparkle as far as stats, but they will make the LB’s look like superstars.
What I like about the depth and is that if somebody isn’t doing their job… there is alway the threat of getting pulled for a few plays and the next guy proves himself worthy of the spot. Guys are going to be playing their hearts out.
Larsen and WW are still huge fan favorites! Love to see these guys on the field. Hopefully they have gotten even better during the reloading season! Can wait for camp and the preseason! There are soo many positional battles to be won.
My image is the Circa 1960-’61 Broncos home uniform sock. Some what folk lore to me ... but referred to as the clown sock by my Dad.
by YellowStoneBronco on Jul 25, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Bear
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 25, 2009 1:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Doc, I always enjoy the read, the picture you paint
always inspires.
That said, you left Crowder out of the mix? Would’nt he be the
better choice between him and Moss. Moss is alot more prone
to injury is’nt he?
Anway I am so ready for our 2009 Bronco season….
Rec’d
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Jul 25, 2009 2:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
you're right -
Crowder kind of fell through the cracks – my apologies. Man, there’s a lot of LB types! Crowder is another guy who may have been more suited to the 3-4 from the start. We didn’t do a very good job of identifying our guys and coaching them up, getting them on the field. I hope that changes and Crowder is certainly another who has a good chance of sticking. I don’t know – frankly, there isn’t enough film on him vs. Moss to know what to think. That’s going to make Training Camp a whole lot more interesting this year. I know that coaches say that they usually know 90% of the players that they will go into the season with before camp, but this year, I have no idea who is up on the coaches list.
Which kind of begs the question – if we had drafted Orakpo and Ayers, who would play? We certainly have the bodies for some serious camp battles and no matter who you like, it’s probably that at least one of your favs won’t make it. We have the kind of depth that we’ve needed for a few years. We also have the kind of ST depth that I think we’ve been missing for a long time. Elam was great, no doubt, but we needed the players to cover kicks and punts, as well as those who could block for our return guys. I was very heartened to notice that A. Davis, Reid, Greisen, Mario Haggan, Woodyard, Larsen, etc were all studs on ST last year. Bailey may need to start sitting those out, but we have guys like Bruton, Barrett (his ability on STs may get him on the field yet) etc who can start on STs right away. It’s always a good place to get yourself noticed, and Moss, Crowder and Co. might want to pay attention to that.
A final note – if I have to choose, I’m going to look at Moss vs. Crowder and watch their cover skills. Moss claims that he’s strong in that area and that could play to his advantage. Can Reid cover? He’s great at covering punts and kickoffs – not the same thing, though. I like your points – you too, DL! I’m sure that Larsen will be a backup to start, but he might push the envelope. I don’t see Davis playing Sam – I think that he’ll be our LILB and Larsen will still push him for playing time.I expect Doom to see time at WOLB and Ayers to start over Reid at LOLB. Still – what you have to love this year is that anything could happen. We’ve got some great veteran leadership and some great young guys. What could be better?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 25, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice job, bear
I think we can expect Dave Martindale and Ricky Phifer to really coach these guys up.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jul 26, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss or Crowder
@BB.. very nice article. Love the detail and analysis.
UB3 kind of stole my thunder (bad boy) about Moss and Crowder. Seems like these two may set the bar for the transition to OLB. Both have the attributes in size and speed but what about flexablity to drop into coverage. OTA’s seemed to favor Tim. My point is that if these two set the bar high with excellent competition then Doom, Ayers, Reid would elevate also. I hope the competition for this position is so high that all 5 have to be kept.
I would love to see Spencer really push Andra for SAM. Jack is in very good hands with DJ and Woody. I agree with Lee Robinson making the team, unless camp surprises instead with Griesen or Haggan.
Let get some pads on these boys.
by DLMyers on Jul 25, 2009 3:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We will all remember
the offseason of 2009 as the turning point of this franchise. I guarantee. This is the year that Bowlen and McD righted the ship and got us started on the way to perennial greatness. Will it happen this year…No. But in the years to come we will be like the Colts, Pats, Steelers but better because we are the Broncos. Do you really believe with Nolan and McD we will be pushovers on defense? Not a chance. Those of us patient enough to wait will be rewarded. I can only hope that patience wins out in the end.
by T.Dot_Bronco on Jul 25, 2009 3:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
How much of this is wishful thinking?
Not to be negative, but I don’t see the same things as the rest of you. I love the call back to the days of Joe Collier and the Orange Crush Defense, but how many of these 12 guys could start in that lineup? How many would even make the team?
It is true that we have added much-needed bulk and depth, and I hope, toughness. But I still see a limited ability to rush the passer, and no proven ability to cover in pass defense. I’m afraid opponents are going to dink and dunk their way downfield against our linebackers. I admit weakness against short passes is preferable to what we saw last year. But I’m still not convinced that we have offered enough sacrifices to the defensive football gods to be able to say that this year’s version is worlds better than last year’s defense. At this time last year we were thinking that Niko and Boss were all we needed to get over the hump. I’m still not sure we are there yet.
“Our ability to play hardnosed, physical football has increased and we have, much to my delight, an actual scheme.” I hope you’re right, but I’m afraid we still have some weaknesses that can be easily exposed. I want to buy in to what you are saying, but I need to see it on the field first.
"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi
by broncospriestess on Jul 25, 2009 7:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
In fairness though...
Our defense has been run into the ground over the last several years. This is a transition year (new HC and DC, and a slew of new players). It shouldn’t change overnight or even in just one year. I think the excitement is that we are finally getting the defense addressed and overhauled, and will be placing the defense in a system (something missing the last two years).
So while I agree that we won’t turn around overnight, I believe we are on the right track to create a solid defense, as well as one that can be sustained for some years. The skeleton is being built this year; not the whole body. But what a skeleton!
Just my opinion.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 25, 2009 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points, Priestess
I also put a premium on players who have “been there and done that.” Andra Davis is the only known quantity.
That said, there’s lots to be excited about.
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Jul 26, 2009 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
GOOD POINT!
I examined the “drinking the Kool-aid” argument and came to the conclusion that we were drinking the Kool-aid — but during the final days of the Shanahan era!
There’s always a bit of homer bias that goes into team expectations, and I assume that a large chunk of this is the result of having more information about your own team. Cognitively speaking, it’s not a symmetrical situation, since we know much more about our team than unenlightened observers, and this produces specific expectations based on specific knowledge. Casual observers have only a very general knowledge of our team and also lack the emotional biases that ‘emotionally invested’ fans have, so their expectations can be more accurate because of their impartiality.
This last point is important in a way that is different from expected; casual observers peg our team on gross details that are common knowledge — i.e., Shanahan’s reputation, Cutler’s reputation, etc. Therefore, (oddly) the casual observer may have overestimated the importance of Shanahan & Cutler and pegged us lower now, in a simple subtraction of purported strengths. To put it in the simple form that a casual fan sees — we were ‘sorta’ good with Shanny & Cutler so now we’re pretty bad without them, since they were the only strengths that the casual fans ‘knew of’ on the Broncos.
So, much of the attitudes towards the Broncos are dependent on how much one knows, and it’s also true that people often make decisions on a few ‘facts’ even though they appear to have a command on the full range of information. Quite obviously, some people never liked the Cutler trade and it’s the ONLY significant fact that they use when assessing the Broncos.
Re: pass coverage by the LBs. This is a big concern for me personally. The strategic advantage you gain by getting bigger ‘flips’ to create a disadvantage elsewhere in pass coverage. The more compact short zones and congestion (leading to turnovers because QBs overlook pass coverers) help on this front. I’ve wondered about Woodyard’s pass coverage ability since we might see a third down LB package including the more adept pass coverers. I’d also expect more help from the Safety position that we’ve seen in the past.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Jul 26, 2009 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of potential, but will it bloom and how long will it take?
Probably only 3 of the 7 up front would definitely crack the starting lineup on some other teams. All these players need, not only have the knowledge and skills for their own position, but also they have to play together as a unit. Most likely out of all these options at OLB, we can come up with two good starters, but how long will it take for them to cut down on mistakes? The same is true for our OL players.
Assuming we come up with 7 players good enough to start on other teams, how long will it take them to play as a unit?
I think the play of the front 7 determines the season’s outcome. No doubt they will play better as the season progresses, however If they play badly in the first few games against weaker opponents, we may only win 4 games this season.
Can they play well enough, without making big mistakes, to help the Broncos win at least 3 of those games?
I like the new Broncos. The coaching is solid. the offense is solid. The secondary is solid. Special teams are better. Yes, there’s more potential in the front 7 this year, but will it bloom in time for a decent 2009 season? What if they give up 130 to 150 points in those first 5 games?
This is the most interesting Bronco season in a decade, and the only one that the preseason games matter. We all will be watching the OL and LBs like never before in franchise history. Can’t wait.
by MichaelCushman on Jul 25, 2009 8:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
something to think about...
If the Broncos were truly concerned that the players they have might not be up to the task, why not sign Ellis or Foote or the LB from the Rams?
I don’t know. I just hope the coaches do.
by JeffG on Jul 25, 2009 8:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
End of Preseason
We may see some signings at the end of preseason if players currently on the roster are not up to the task.
by Endzone on Jul 26, 2009 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent work Bear.
Salmon for the bear!
Great write up on perhaps the most difficult position going into ‘09. As you know, I didn’t want to touch OLBs and DEs with a ten foot pole! You took the plunge and knocked the ball out of the park.
My (very) quick thoughts on some of the players:
Williams – lock at RILB
Davis – very likely starter at LILB
Reid – will make the team and could be a major surprise
Ayers – will make the team
Woodyard – I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t make the team
Larson – will make the team (just too versatile not to)
Moss – has his share of detractors, but I think he might bloom this year. I like his speed.
Doom – one of my favorites as a 4-3 DE. I’m wondering how he’ll do in the 3-4 (I’m puling for him)
Ultra rec’d!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 25, 2009 9:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The strength of the 3-4 is found in it's LB's...
wouldn’t you agree? It should be interesting. I saw an article today that mentioned that Willie McGinest is looking to come in and help a team out. Do you think there is a chance if we have a camp injury or something happen that McD’ would call him up? I wouldn’t mind adding another veteran leader who has an urgency to win now.
Great write up Doc. As always, I look forward to your next work.
Moreno in 2009! - Check
Taylor Mays in 2010!
by Steve O' on Jul 25, 2009 10:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
that the front 7 can gel faster than most people think (wishful thinking maybe). I believe the coaches we have brought in can get them working well enough to help us get to 4-2 in the first 6 games. I agree that it will take more than 1 year for them to completely gel but with a greatly upgraded secondary I think we can get to the point that minimizing the mistakes the front 7 makes will be compensated by the much improved secondary.
Just my thoughts, but then again this is why I love this site because of all the learning I get to do. It may very well be wishful thinking but I can hope can’t I?
Great post on the Linebackers. Thank you
by papasteven on Jul 25, 2009 10:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great thoughts, folks
Probably only 3 of the 7 up front would definitely crack the starting lineup on some other teams.
Those who are uncomfortable with our players tend to believe this, and we will get to see over time. But, here’s a thought: A. Davis started for Cleveland last year. DJ would start for anyone – he is an unusually good player. Wesley Woodyard averaged 9 tackles per start in his rookie season – he’d start weakside for a lot of teams. Ayers – he’d start for a lot of teams as well.
Thomas would also start for a lot of teams – he’s on the usual track for improving DL players and did well last season. Fields was scheduled to start for SF this season (whether he would pan out or not, we’ll see). That’s 6 of 7 slots. There are players like doom who I think would start for a lot of teams, Reid, Crowder and Moss who will make it or not at their new slots. Are these top 5 players? No – except for DJ, and perhaps Ayers. But are they starter quality? I think that they are. Given who we fielded last season, I appreciate the upgrades.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 26, 2009 12:21 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Post and Fuzzy Bear Math ;-)
Only DJ, Davis, and Thomas have a track record as starters. (Woodward isn’t looking like first team). That’s reality. Maybe the 4 new players will have long careers in the NFL. I think many will. My point is that 4 new players (several who are playing new positions), aren’t likely going to be great in their first 5 games. And they also haven’t played together as a unit before. People should have realistic expectations. There’s a high probability the season will go south quickly, even though in the long run, this is a much better group than last years.
The good news is that this group will play against an excellent offense in practice every day, and the learning curve will be compressed. They have good coaching. But will it be enough to get through those early games with wins?
I think this concern is reasonable and why many predict a losing record for the Broncos. The change in scheme and the newness of the players to their positions and to each other is reality. Saying people are going to be starters and actually have track records in the NFL as starters are two different animals.
I think the Broncos will play playoff quality football down the stretch, the big question is how will they play out of the gate? I’m hoping they play great, and I’m realistic that it might take a while. There’s no quick fix to turning around an entire defense.
Great post. Thanks for all your hard work, research, and analysis.
by MichaelCushman on Jul 26, 2009 5:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One little sematical point.
I completely agree with your comments Michael. However, I’ll quibble with one little context.
I think you misread Bear’s comment. You are writing that only three players have a track record as starters. But Bear isn’t implying that more than three players have tracks records as starters. The point he is pushing against is completely different. Folks that Bear has a quibble with are stating that these players would not start for any other team, and that simply isn’t true. In THAT context (the one that Bear is making), Bear is completely correct; we have at least 7 players that would arguably start for other teams. “History of starting” is a straw man that Bear never raised. (I’d call it a “red herring”, but the bear gets hungry whenever we mention fish).
Again:
D.J., Davis, and Thomas – No quibble (your point, and agreed)
Ayers – Surely you don’t think any of the teams that would draft the guy so high wouldn’t start him?
Fields – Was going to be the starter in SF this year.
Woodyard (not Woodward) – averaging 9 tackles in a rookie season on a terrible defense gets a start in most towns.
Even if we were to disagree on some of the names, wouldn’t you grant that more than 3 of these players are starter quality in other cities?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 26, 2009 8:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, HT
And that’s right – the point I disagreed with is that ‘probably’ only 3 would start on other teams. I’m pretty sure that at least 6 would start on other teams, depending on the team. By the way – that’s something that is sometimes used against McBean, the idea that because PITT is so deep in established DL players that he is lesser because he was on the PS. Many guys start out on the PS who go on to start – around here, of course, Rod Smith is one of them. Sometimes, being on the PS just means that the team is deep on one position. If someone wants to make our squad as a OT, he’d have to be very, very good. Even then – you can only keep so many.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 26, 2009 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Semantics? The key point is starter experience.
Of the projected starters, 3 out of the front 7 have prior starter experience. (if Doom starts it’s 4 out of 7, however players starting in different positions makes them much less effective.) That is a reason for concern. That’s the point. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough.
The offense is completely different. Maybe one new player without starter experience.
With 4 players without a history of starting on defense in the NFL, this year is about potential. Next year is more reasonable for expecting a winning season.
It would be helpful for people to keep this in mind when evaluating our teams likely win/loss record.
by MichaelCushman on Jul 26, 2009 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you.
I agree that only three have starter experience. But that isn’t what BEAR said, so his math isn’t fuzzy. You and Bear were talking about two different things.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 27, 2009 7:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome way of looking at it Doc and could not agree more. Nice write up my friend!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Jul 26, 2009 7:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great read, Bear.. as always!
The next few weeks should be interesting! There are so many unknowns and so little time for some of these players to shine. By the last preseason game we should know whether there is cause for alarm.
I believe that there is a lot of talent in this linebacking corps; I’m just not sure who possesses the bulk of it. There will be mistakes made early in the season, but if there is cohesiveness and team play, the mistakes can be corrected and we may have a much better D.
It’s hard to remember that Woodyard and Larson were rookies last year.. they’ll be much improved and better coached this season.
Rec’d, by the way! I always enjoy your posts
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
by hairybear on Jul 26, 2009 7:30 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, HB, I, uh..
Oh, was that your salmon…?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 26, 2009 10:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
bear how would you compare this Line Backing corp to Pittsburgs?
Great read and very interested to find out how all this plays out.
by bfree2bronc on Jul 27, 2009 1:11 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good question, bfree
There are some similarities. Both have a good mix of younger and older guys. Farrier, like Davis, is older but brings that experience and leadership that can be so important in tough situations. You have young CFAs like Patrick Baley, or Wes Woodyard, a young mid-round pick like Spencer Larsen or Bruce Davis. A lot of folks seem to forget that James Harrison kicked around the league for a few years before settling onto the Steelers. Reid may turn out to be similar, although bigger and stronger. Andre Scantz is about the size of Woodyard – young, light, fast. LaMar Woodley is about the size of Reid but has that great skill of DJ.
The point here is that they have a solid mixture of the bigger and smaller guys, of age and experience. Taken as a whole, they can cover nearly every contingency. I’m a huge LeBeau fan, and a big proponent of the zone blitz approach, since I love an attacking defense that tries to make the offense react to it. But the ZB scheme isn’t the only way to do that – you can do it with a one or two gap attack, and I’m hoping that we see our players come together later this season to start winning the tough games by playing as a cohesive whole.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 27, 2009 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
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