Was McNair the toughest QB ever?
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 2:56 AM MDT
36 comments
After listening to the talk radio and sports center retrospectives of Steve McNair, everyone brings up that Steve McNair was the toughest QB to ever play. This post is not meant as disrespect to McNair, but I have to disagree with this assessment that McNair was somehow the toughest QB to play the game. I had to listen to one talk show idiot say the only guy he could compare McNair with as far as being tough was gag, Tim freaking Teabow and maybe Brett Favre. I about drove off the road after listening to that assessment.
I won’t argue that McNair was a good QB and a very good leader. And was McNair tough, yes, was he the toughest QB to play, that is highly debatable. I would throw John Elway into the mix of toughest to ever play the position, and here is why. Elway began his career in a different era than McNair, there were the rules regarding blows to the head and leading with the helmet. I can’t remember how many plays Elway got blasted straight in the back and would come back for the next play.
Looking at the statistics is even more mind blowing argument for John Elway. Elway was sacked a record 516 times and played in 234 games, or roughly he was sacked 2.2 times per game. McNair by contrast was sacked 254 times and played in 161 games or roughly he was sacked 1.57 times per game. Now getting QB hits is a tougher statistic, but lets say that a QB on average get hit 10 times a game, which is probably accurate. So Elway would have been hit roughly 2,340 times in his career and McNair roughly 1,610 times. Brett Favre by comparison has been sacked 469 times in 273 games or roughly 1.72 times a game, and has not missed a start. Looking back at some other long time QB’s by comparison Dan Fouts was sacked 319 times in 181 games or roughly 1.76 times per game, Jim Kelly was sacked 323 times in 160 game or roughly 2.01 times a game. Our own Craig Morton was sacked 373 times in 203 games or roughly 1.59 and that number is artificially low since the first four years he was in the league they didn’t keep sack records, and Morton played in an era before roughing the passer and the three step rule. As we can see, there have been many QB’s that have taken the same or greater punishment and still performed and generally performed at a higher level than McNair did.
So I will pose the question, who is the toughest QB to play the position?
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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voted someone else RON JAWARSKI
Former Phila Eagles QB and now Part of the monday nite football telecast crew !
I grew up watching this guys tenure At QB for the eagles . The eagles at that time
had a horrible offensive line sort of like pittsburgh steelers have now . Time after time .
jaws would drop back to pass and get folded over backwards or straight up pile
driven into the dirt and still get back up . slowly sometimes but he got back up .
Keep in mind that there was little in the rules to protect QBs then compared to now.
Still Jawarski managed to take the eagles to there 1st superbowl . I never liked
the eagles but Jawarskis toughness sticks in my mind and will always be recalled
whenever subjects on NFL QB toughness are debated .
by broncosfaninphilly on Jul 7, 2009 4:57 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the guys who played in the 70's-80's were somewhat tougher
They didn’t have all the rules to protect the QB that they have now and those guys got hit a lot more. Jaws is a good one.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second that thought :)
I think they clearly win the day in terms of toughest of the tough…
A lot of those that have been around for a while (or at least got to watch a lot of football from around that time) know how tough it was on a lot of those guys to play and play through that.
Now if you’re talking about toughest of the era, that one’s certainly debatable.
Good post, I appreciate you bringing this up, especially when I’ve also heard a lot of talk disregarding the older QBs in the “toughest player” debate. It’s always hard to apply a superlative tag to anything, but for some reason people seem to love doing it all the time. This guy was THE best, he was THE classiest, he was THE strongest, he was THE toughest….
I think we all agree ‘Air’ McNair and even Brett Favre (who I can’t stand at this point due to his recent decisions – or lack thereof – and the MSM coverage) are/were two real tough quarterbacks. And as you correctly stated, the guys that played earlier on were pretty darn tough too and had to deal with less protection in the way of rules and the like.
by phantom818 on Jul 7, 2009 4:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until the change in 1978
Giving the right of the O linemen to hold with their hands inside was an enormous change for the league. Before that, abusing QBs was even easier. More recent changes have also protected the NFL’s biggest investment, financially (with LTs ranked second, which makes sense), but that first was the biggest.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Jul 8, 2009 1:30 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the same time,
no QB in the 70s had to worry about a 6’6" 280 lb LB running a 4.5 and hammering them.
Yeah the rules weren’t as protective, but the players today are bigger, faster, and stronger than the players 20-30 years ago.
As much as I dislike him, I say Favre. The man has played through an amazing amount of pain, both physical and emotional. And while he is overrated and overhyped by ESPN and the like, starting 291 consecutive games is unbelieveable for a QB.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 8, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing about Jaws
He had to play half his games at the Vet, that’s like playing on concrete.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although I voted for Elway
I think Matt Cassel is a tough QB. To get sacked 47 times in one season and still put up the numbers he did…it’s something else.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Jul 7, 2009 5:29 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young
Beware the wrath of a patient adversary.
John C. Calhoun --
by bcfunk on Jul 7, 2009 7:49 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought about that, but since he spent a lot of time behind pretty good o-lines in SF and didn't play in
as many games, I thought I would leave him off the list.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be here if I didn't love John Elway to death.
But with all due respect to John, Steve McNair was most definitely the toughest sonovabitch to play the quarterback position in my thus-far-28-year lifetime. Hands down.
John Elway doesn’t deserve to be in the same sentence. I still believe Brett Favre’s toughness was part reality and part hype (in that he certainly WAS tough, but probably less so than perceived).
McNair was tougher than a $1 ribeye.
"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields
by Donut King on Jul 7, 2009 9:00 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
All those guys are tough
Steve McNair was a STUD at coming back each play from tremendous abuse, but IMO, the gutsiest guy I ever watched had to be Craig Morton. He was like the Energizer Bunny, he kept getting pounded, and came back again and again. He also called a lot of plays himself. To be able to think on ones feet after repeated blows to ones body HAS to count for something.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 7, 2009 9:01 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree
The thing about Morton was he had no legs at the end of his career and he just got creamed.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
seeing that
Morton left the hospital to play in the 1977 AFC Title game and could not even bend over to tie his shoes in that game and was still 10/20 224 and 2 tds. His entire side was black and blue. Thats was one of the guttiest performances ever
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jul 7, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am glad some people remember how much Morton went through
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 8:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not too mention he had to leave the hospital in 1982 to announce his retirement
He was a tough SOB.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jul 8, 2009 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is this Morton?
I thought Elway was the Bronco’s first QB
by trumanj on Jul 8, 2009 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and then there's Johnny Unitas...
another era of the NFL, but man he was one tough dude. Then I would say Elway, Favre and then McNair……….Every season gives us some gutsy QB’s to watch, but these certainly stand out in my mind….
by bchiper on Jul 7, 2009 9:05 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't picked Unitas, but you are right, he was definately tough
It’s kind of hard to pick some of those older era guys simply because the passing game has evolved so much since the 50’s and 60’s, most teams back then had a run run and throw if need be mentality, so QB’s weren’t as risk as much, although they definately got hit a lot. Also hard to find any sack records back then so kind of hard to do an apples to apples comparison.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely hard to compare with today....
I just remember watching a lot of the old Baltimore Colts games on CBS back then. That was back in the day; CBS had the NFL games and NBC broadcast the AFL games. Ah, to be so young again…..
by bchiper on Jul 7, 2009 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elway...
Sacked more times in his career than ANY other QB. None less than Howie Long said he was the toughest guy he ever played against.
Who am I to argue with Howie Long?
by AlanC on Jul 7, 2009 11:33 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Those stupid truck commercials . . .
make it easier for me to doubt him.
"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields
by Donut King on Jul 7, 2009 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a tough time arguing against Elway being the toughest
The Howie Long quote may be the closest thing to proof we’ll find, as I don’t think toughness can be measured with any stats I’ve seen. I can’t speak to Morton or Unitas as I am too young to have watched. For that matter I didn’t watch a lot of air McNair.
But if you don’t have Brett Farve on or near the top of this list, I think you are making a mistake. For a QB to not miss a game for nothin’ (not his Dad’s death or even the time he dislocated his whole friggin’ throwing arm) is a pretty huge statement. I don’t like the guy, but I’m not sure a supermax prison could keep him from suiting up on Sunday.
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
by jibbons on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't heard the Howie quote
But I was watching one of the America’s games where they were profiling the 1st SB winning team, and they had some shots of the Jacksonville players and they were amazed Elway was still playing after getting drilled, they were surprised he could even stand, let alone play. After the game, Bowlen asked him if he was knocked out and he said no, but he was seeing stars.
I have to tend to agree with Favre being underrated, but when you look at the stats and rate of sacks, I still would give the nod to Elway.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 7, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Craig Morton
I was told that the NFL added a rule that injuries must be reported because of Craig (Due to the injuries prior to SB appearance in 1977 not being properly reported). See article about the hip injury before the SB.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
by wyoeng on Jul 7, 2009 12:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What was serious was....
The injury before the AFC chamionship game against Oakland. The man should not have been playing that day. He was so badly bruised, he could not even tie his own shoes and he was certain he couldn’t go until after warmups…. It was an incredibly couragous performance and he was indeed one of the gutsiest guys I ever saw play.
But I don’t think he ever took the beating year in and year out that Elway did. They used to say that if you looked at Elway in the locker room he looked like a linebacker. His longevity was due to his work ethic and his determination to make himself stonger and able to take the hits.
It evenually took his speed away from him, but never his instincts.
by AlanC on Jul 7, 2009 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That story is told in Craig Morton's book
“Then Morton Said to Elway…” The Best Denver Broncos Stories Ever Told
by Craig Morton with Adrian Dater
I Recommend this book for those of you Bronco History buffs.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Jul 7, 2009 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
McNair was tough, BUT
to say he was the toughest is a no go and no way with me. As mentioned, too many tough qbs’ from nfl past to say such a thing. Beyond sacks and longevity, how would you measure that? He was still a tough hombre, I’ll give you that.
Each week that brings us closer to the ultimate prize,
by Punkin Head on Jul 7, 2009 1:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Just throwing another name into the mix:
Roger Staubach?
by tunga77 on Jul 7, 2009 2:54 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Bobby Lane
er… from what I’ve read and heard—i wasn’t actually there. anyway, the man was legendary tough, played without a facemask and actually made the detroit lions good for a couple of years. that’s gotta be worth something.
by oxmouth on Jul 7, 2009 3:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
the lions were good???
that is impressive
by trumanj on Jul 8, 2009 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
McNair was one of the toughest players I have ever seen.
At one point (I forget which year) he went like 12 weeks without practicing but didn’t miss a game. It was almost funny; every week the injury report said “McNair-questionable” but you knew he would play.
I say Favre is up there with him. The man has played through an amazing amount of pain and has made 291 straight starts. That’s really all you need to say about him.
And I know this is a Broncos site, and I love John, but come on. 63% say Elway? He was one tough SOB but to me Favre and McNair were tougher. Even Steve Young and Troy Aikman for the amount of head injuries they played through.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 8, 2009 10:50 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
One reason McNair has the tough guy reputation is because everyone knew when he was injured.
Yeah, you are a tough mutha when you play with a severely bruised sternum, damaged thumb, etc. Still, I’m guessing Elway played with a ton of stuff like that and we simply never heard about it. If he had bruised ribs or a nasty contusion or whatever, I’m guessing he didn’t make the injury list simply because the coaches knew the durable S.O.B. would play.
To say that Elway can’t be mentioned in the same sentence as McNair for toughness is ridiculous.
by jaffe28 on Jul 8, 2009 11:28 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If you watch how much pain Elway walks in now, there is no way you can tell me he didn’t play with some bad injuries. I remember one year when he played with a burst bursa sack, looked like he had grown an extra elbow.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Jul 8, 2009 5:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm struggling with the definition of tough
Does tough refer only to physical durability and the ability to play through pain, or should it also include mental toughness. The ability to remain confident and play through adversity.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by BShrout on Jul 8, 2009 6:51 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Big Ben
I’d have to throw big ben in there too. He’s been hit by a car…and sacked plenty. His line freakin’ sucked last couple of years.
by trumanj on Jul 8, 2009 8:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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