The Curious Career of Steve Young (and what it may portend for us)

by ksondere on Jul 9, 2009 5:56 PM MDT Comment 46 comments

Rocko1 one of our astute MHR readers mentioned in a earlier reply that Steve Young was on ESPN the other day and was very critical of Kyle Orton as our Cutler replacement. As he put it Steve of all people should know better.

How true. In fact it seems worthy of a separate post to review the Curious Career of Steve Young and why he of all people ought to see the silver lining in our Kyle Orton future. I was a student at BYU when he played there. He put up amazing numbers and ended his career with a completion percentage of over 70%. His career was so good that he was projected to be the #1 pick in the NFL...and then the USFL gave him astounding 42 million dollar contract. Who could turn that down. He played for the USFL LA Express for I think a year. Sometimes playing at RB. Because of contracts similar to Steve's the USFL ulimately folded and he became a Tampa Bay Buccaneer.

Steve was there for something like two years. He had a completion percentage with Tampa of 53%. 53% people! Doug Williams made fun of his noodle arm. But Bill Walsh, coach of the SF 49ers remembered Steve's days in college playing an offense very similar to his own. Bill was considered a genius because while most people saw Steve as an NFL scrub. Bill remembered something different. He remembered Steve's college days playing essentially his offense.

We all know the rest of the story. Steve displaced Joe Montana, whom some consider the greatest QB ever. He went to the HOF. He left the NFL with a 64% pass completion stat passing for over 70% in one season. And while Steve was winning his Super Bowls with Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Tom Rathman, and Roger Craig. John was if I recall still laboring under the Reeves run first system with guys like Gaston Green. John was pulling out games with an amazing talent and little talent around him.

History often repeats itself. It seems to me that Cutler is now entering the Reeves portion of his career. He will amaze us all with his talent. And without really needing the ability to read a defense he will continue to put the ball almost anywgere he wants. But he won't have the career he should have had. Meanwhile in Denver, our own coach saw what Kyle Orton did with not alot of talent in Chicago. He saw a player who had a prolific career playing a spread offense similar to his own. And while Kyle may be no Steve here's betting he passes for 63% in this Offense!

13-3 baby!

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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So, then Steve is now a product of the MSM?

I didn’t see the clip, I haven’t watched the NFL since January because they’ve been so down on the Broncos. Here’s to hoping that McD has a little bit of Walsh in him, and that Orton has a little bit of Steve.

13-3 baby!

by solace on Jul 9, 2009 6:22 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

other issues

It’s also pertinent that he was left-handed, and I’d like to find out how he fared protection-wise when substituting for Montana. The issue of arm strength also applies to Montana, who never possessed a bazooka, which could be said of many other QBs in the HOF. The one that comes to mind for me is Bart Starr, of Packer fame.

Somewhere along the line we substituted velocity for accuracy. It’s become so ‘unexamined’ that its hard to tell people who’ve never known it otherwise. And, close to home, Elway’s ascension from good to great was accomplished by learning to NOT throw the uncatchable missiles that left the “Elway cross” and loft the ball with a little touch. Putting touch on the ball has almost disappeared from our lexicon, because the point isn’t to make the ball catchable but to rifle it into a small space — or so the current thinking among fans goes.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Jul 9, 2009 6:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Good point ski

A lot of people either forgot or never knew that Elways best years were after he tore his bicep muscle and lost some of that incredible velocity. It actually made him a more effective QB.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jul 10, 2009 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He developed touch

Bicep injury aside, he developed good touch and this was demonstrated by his winning the All-Stars skills contest for this category. His habits changed and he didn’t force ball into coverage anymore. He also learned little tricks like aiming for the back of the DB and letting Smith, or whoever, to come back to the ball or earn an interference call in the process. Running out of bounds was a late addition to his game, but he usually picked up a good chunk of yardage in the process. He simply became a much better QB because he did all the smart things rather than try to win the game through nearly impossible feats.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Jul 10, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He also learned little tricks like aiming for the back of the DB and letting Smith, or whoever, to come back to the ball or earn an interference call in the process.

He did this so well

by lolcopter on Jul 10, 2009 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I called out Young

and criticized him for having a short memory. He was awful at Tampa, but he had terrible coaches, a porous offensive line and nobody reveivers. After being traded for a no. 1 draft choice, Young struggled for two or three years with the 49ers before earning the starting position. I made the point to give an example of how much a QB can improve when he has support. By support, I was refering to the proper offensive scheme, good receivers/coaching/offensive line, and a solid running game. While KO had to go through a lot of BS with the Bears, he was far better than the Tampa version of Young. Now that Orton has support, his performance on the field should be primed to take off in 09.

by rocko1 on Jul 9, 2009 7:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Good points rocko

While I tend to be biased (obviously), I like to be as realistic as possible with things. One of them being Kyle Orton. I know the guy has some physical issues compared to Jay Cutler, but it just kills me to see him basically being treated like a second class athlete in the NFL. It’s really unfortunate because his knowledge and ability to make good decisions on the field sets him a bar higher in my book.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 9, 2009 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen Cali!

When it comes to a arm strength and mobility contest, Cutler beats Brady, Manning, Roethelsberger, Montana, Stabler, …. every time. As Dungy recently stated, “there a hell of a lot more to playing QB than just throwing the ball”. Cutler has great physical skills, but needs more of what Kyle Orton brings to the field on every play.

by rocko1 on Jul 9, 2009 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're a Bears fan right?

Next time I’m in Chicago (or wherever you live), I’m buying you a beer sir. You are one of the (seemingly) few level headed Bears fans that still think Orton is a good player. I like that about you and it’s nice to see you still think he’s got good stuff to offer.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 9, 2009 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most fans really liked Orton

Heck he was 12-2 in Soldier Field during his time with the Bears. Most knowledgable fans realize that the defense and coaching staff were the main problem areas on the team in 2008.

by rocko1 on Jul 9, 2009 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Conspiracy Theory

I’m convinced that Denver approached Chicago about entering the Cutler sweepstakes. I think Chicago management was content with Orton, but put their ear to the ground, read the fan base, and realized they could get a free pass on rolling the dice for greatness. It wasn’t about replacing Kyle Orton— instead, once Denver saw that things had gone too far south, they pursued Orton. Otherwise, we’d be talking Brady Quinn right now, Knowshon probably wouldn’t be a Bronco, etc, etc, etc…..

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 10, 2009 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chicago would have done anything to get

a high caliber QB and that is what they did. Most of the teams that win the superbowl have a franchise guy( outside of the 2000 ravens) and they bears didn’t have that. If your goal is to win the whole thing you have to have the QB to do it. Time will tell if Cutler lives up to the hype but it was worth the gamble.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was premature for the Bears to give up on Orton

Disco_Stu said it very well below:
" A QB’s performance does not occur in a vacuum. There needs to be a combination of things: QB talent (physically and mentally), supporting talent, system and coaching, and an environment that allows the QB to grow and maximize his potential."
tfrabotta, I respect the fact that you have been a season ticket holder for 20 years, but I have watched every game along with you and most of Kyle’s Purdue games.
After 33 nfl starts and a 21-12 record, it is just way too early to make an assessment of Orton’s potential as a franchise QB.
I have a hypothetical question for you – If the Bears’ defense doesn’t blow the Tampa/Atlanta games last year – do you believe the Bears would have traded Orton after going 11-5 and making the playoffs?

by rocko1 on Jul 10, 2009 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know everyone harps on the 21-12 record

but the special teams and defense won most of those games. If Cutler had played with those special teams and defense I guarantee his record would be much better than it stands today. 11 of those games were in 2005 when their defense was very good and Kyle didn’t do much more than handoff and dump the ball off. I don’t want to come off as negative on him becuase I like him. There are just areas where i think he is good as he is going to be and that is why people in Chicago are excited for cutler because he has some intangibles that KO will never have. Whether he takes advantage of them is yet to be seen. Could the bears have kept KO and see what happens? Sure, he had a run of 5 games where he looked very good. He did lead them on a drive against Atlanta to take the lead. Since you watch all the games you have to know that he was very inconsistent throughout the game. He would have one great drive and then 3 very poor 3 and outs. That kills the defense for getting a rest, not all his fault of course but you have to make some of those throws to complete third downs. The one thing I am very excited about is Cutler was third in the NFL at third down conversions? That is going to help the defense. Ko could have been good if we kept him but he never would have been great.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

We disagree

on everything tfrabotta, but I respect your opinion. It will be interesting to see how the season unfolds for both. I hope both QBs do extremely well in 2009, but Cutler will need to be great at making lemonade with our Bears. Orton on the otherhand, for the first time in his professional career, will have the benefit of playmakers, a great offensive coaching staff, and THE SPREAD.

by rocko1 on Jul 10, 2009 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you really think that Orton was responsible for most

of those wins? Really? As I said he showed alot of promise in that 5 game span. I think before he was injured we had something so I am not discounting the fact that he could have a fine career in Denver. Not sure about the lemonade quote though. The bears are obviously a huge ? at wr. but they substantially upgraded their average Oline including depth vs last year to probably become above average. Their scheme will still be run first but the defenses you face are going to respect your pass game a little bit more. very good TE’s, very good running back does not compute to lemon-less lemonade to me. One other point to make here that know one brings up, is anyone worried (not to blaspheme or be negative) about the lack of success that other NE asst coaches have had wherever they went? Charlie Weis was the greatest O coordinator we have seen. He made Tom Brady, but he has obviously struggled as a head coach. Crennel, Mangini all have struggled.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, Cutler has to overcome the lack of success of every QB in Chicago over the past few decades. seems to be an applicable comparison if we’re going to be comparing former NE assistants in a similar fashion.

both McD and Cutler have to prove themselves on their own terms. their output in not predetermined by other peoples’ previous failures

by lolcopter on Jul 10, 2009 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like the way Orton plays

I liked the way Orton played in the 50 mph wind game in 2007 against the Packers. I liked the way he mopped up the field with Brett Favre and completed 80% of his 3rd down passes in that game. I liked the way Orton outplayed Drew Brees the following week in leading the Bears to victory over the Saints. You were at those games right? I think he looked pretty darn good after sitting on the bench for 30 straight games, while watching Rex Grossman stink up the NFL. I liked the way Orton and the Bears beat Peyton Manning and the Colts in Indy to open the 2008 season. There’s plenty to like my friend. Now it’s Cutlers turn to deal with a porous offensive line( a over the hill, injury prone Orlando Pace doesn’t change anything from 2008), the weakest group of WRs in the NFL, and the infamous Ron Turner’s offensive scheme/play calling.
In my book, a rookie(with the track record he had at Purdue) leads a 5-11 team(2004) to 10 victories, he’s my guy. Smith and Angelo were fools to choose Grossman over Orton. The Bears stick with Orton and the 2006 Super Bowl is won by Chicago.

by rocko1 on Jul 10, 2009 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

tfrabotta, you said above...

that most teams that win the Super Bowl do so because they have a franchise QB (or at least implied that it’s a HUGE reason why they won). Wouldn’t that kind of thinking translate to ANY wins a team has? If you’re saying the QB is that important for winning a Super Bowl, doesn’t it mean (in your eyes) that he’s that important for any win?

And yet here you’re implying (actually out and out saying “special teams and defense won most of those games”) that Kyle Orton was not responsible for the Bears’ wins or his own 21 – 12 record. Doesn’t really make sense, man. It really seems you’re just not an Orton fan, which, of course, is fine. But I think you, and all Bears fans, are going to be in for a big surprise when Cutler doesn’t live up to the lofty expectations that have been put on his shoulders or the price that was paid for him.

All of that, of course, has been discussed at great length already, but the Broncos system, scheme, coaches and players will give a very good QB like Orton a chance to shine (something he was never given in Chicago) and I believe he will. And the system, scheme and player question marks on the Bears could potentially expose Cutler in a lot of ways, and I think it will. Don’t get me wrong, I was a Cutler fan and hope he does well with the Bears. However, I believe at best he might (and that’s a big MIGHT) still put up great numbers, but that won’t translate into team success/wins (which is exactly what he did for the Broncos); not until he gets a LOT of help and his style of play matures, anyway.

"Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin (Calvin & Hobbes)

by RockyMtnHigh on Jul 16, 2009 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are just areas where i think he is good as he is going to be and that is why people in Chicago are excited for cutler because he has some intangibles that KO will never have.

I don’t know about this statement. Cutler has a lot of TANGIBLES that Orton lacks, like arm strength and mobility. The only intangible quality Cutler possesses over Orton (IMO) is pocket presence. He still needs to work on other intangibles such as his field vision and decision making in the red zone.

by lolcopter on Jul 10, 2009 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

decision making in general could use some practice.

if he keeps sticking to one receiver like he did last year he’s not going to go far in Chicago either. I’d be willing to bet opposing secondaries in the NFC North already have that figured out.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Jul 10, 2009 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point was simply...

…that Denver didn’t just get Orton as a throw in. They like his tools for the system. Remember, as the Cutler fiasco esculated, much speculation rested on Chicago but Deangolo publically stated that Chicago didn’t have plans to enter the sweepstakes. At least, thats what my memory tells me. Part of that is don’t piss off the exisisting guy, but part of it was that Orton seemed to be earning more respect than he gets. Chicago obviously wasn’t supremely content with Orton, but he wasn’t just a throw in in the deal. Denver could have had Brady Quinn or Jason Campbell and they opted for Orton. I think Denver pursued that deal.

It’ll be interesting to see how it works out. I think expectations for where Cutler is in his development are completely skewed with Chicago fans right now— this dude needs some more serious work— but nobody can argue with his potential or his development up to this point. I’ve watched a lot of football, though— and I believe Cutler still is a long way away from the guy some Chicago fans seem to think they are getting. He could still break either way right now. He has hardly ‘arrived’.

by PredominantlyOrange on Jul 10, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most fans did like Orton

I have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years and they liked him because for the most part he didn’t lose the game like Grossman did. That doesn’t mean anyone thought he was taking us to the promised land. He didn’t hurt us but he didn’t win games for us over the last few years either (with an exception here or there). He was a good leader and the team liked and respected him. Most :“knowledgeable fans” know that the defensive scheme put in place with Babich doomed the defense. The talent was there (5th agaisnt the run in the NFL), But the fact is the defense was on the field for so long every game led to there downfall. Our offense couldn’t convert third downs regularly to extend drives to rest the defense which in part was KO’s issue with accuracy. Not all his fault with wr’s that can’t get separation but the defense he faced wasn’t respecting our pass offense either and tried to tak away the run.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here, Here...

I agree with all these points, but the only physical difference is the so-called arm strenght IMHO. If I recall Orton is actually taller than Cutler with very similar body builds.

by bchiper on Jul 10, 2009 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cutler is head and shoulders

above Orton in pocket presence and footwork..

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think if you compare Cutler's

performance between the 2007 and 2008 seasons you’ll find pocket presence and footwork improved. Mostly the line improvement between the two years allowed him to settle in. He threw for a lot of yards for the Broncos, but still, he wasn’t a game changer. Cutler has some tremendous ability, but, he does need some refinement in seeing the whole field and not locking into his primary receiver. If he can do that, then I’d say he’s a franchise guy. I wish him well in Chicago.

As for Orton, I think he has some untapped skill. The offense he played in Chicago versus what he played at Purdue were quite different. He never adjusted to the difference and the result was average play for the Bears. He did start last year pretty well until he injured an ankle; after that point he just wasn’t the same QB.

Both teams have a long season ahead of them and it will be interesting to see how the two fair in it. I hope they both succeed.

by bchiper on Jul 10, 2009 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was just commenting

on his footwork. KO is a bit slow a foot and not quick at all. It is not easy for him to float in the pocket. Mostly a standstill, pat the ball QB.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No arguement from me...

My first post was just pointing out that size wise Orton is a little bigger than Cutler. I’d say Cutler has the edge when it comes to physical ability though.

by bchiper on Jul 10, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The coaching factor

Cuter had a distinct advantage being mentored by Shanny into the NFL game. Say what you want about Mike, but his ability to develop QB’s is undeniable. Not sure if JC will get the same level of expertise in Chicago and he hasn’t shown the self-discipline to self diagnose.
Orton will benefit greatly from McD another QB guru. See the Steve Young fanpost by ksondere for some excellent points on the value of the coach in QB development as well.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jul 10, 2009 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doh, man I hate it when I forget what post I'm replying to.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jul 10, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see

that you have CRS also(Can’t remember Stuff) Lol

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 10, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry I couldn't remember...

But it was some great points you made. By the way I think Walsh got Steve for a 2nd and a 4th pick

by ksondere on Jul 10, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

ksondere

since you went to school with Young, what is YOUR assessment of his arm. It seems to me that I recall he had a far stronger arm than Montana(who did possess a noodle arm). The MSM claimed he had a “golden arm” if I remember right, when they were promoting the US(Fake)FL. I agree with your take on all of this, however.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Jul 9, 2009 7:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

My friend...

Interesting question you ask. It’s funny how people can get down on a QB and myths are made. I remember the media reporting Doug Williams statements about Steve and it seemed like the noodle arm label stuck.

But I have a friend who got to play catch with Steve one afternoon. He couldn’t believe how hard and fast the ball came at him. This is a friend with some good experience playing college ball.

by ksondere on Jul 10, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

QB Worship

In my opinion, the general public is more interested in the entertainment than the craft of football. It follows that QB’s that can deliver heart-pounding, jaw dropping passes are worshiped. It is simply not important that they don’t win games or throw interceptions. Individual guts and glory are more important than team. Why else does the MSM trumpet team matchups as, say, “Manning vs Rivers” or such? I’m sure Cutler was a god on his college campus with all the boys and girls even though the team didn’t win many games. It’s a little different at the level of grown men, huh Jay?

I seem to remember that Young had a stronger arm than Montana, but not by much. And he was cheaper than Montana at that stage of his career. But he never had an “Elway Cross” kind of arm.

Young should, as you say, of all people should remember his own history.

by Endzone on Jul 9, 2009 8:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Steve Young vs Joe Montana

Awards: Joe Montana

1981 NFL Super Bowl MVP
1984 NFL Super Bowl MVP
1986 NFL AP Comeback Player of the Year
1989 NFL AP MVP
1989 NFL PFWA MVP
1989 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP
1989 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)
1989 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year
1989 NFL Super Bowl MVP
1990 NFL AP MVP
40,551 total yards passing. Inducted into the HOF 2000.

Awards: Steve Young

1992 NFL AP MVP
1992 NFL PFWA MVP
1992 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)
1992 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year
1994 NFL AP MVP
1994 NFL PFWA MVP
1994 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP
1994 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)
1994 NFL Super Bowl MVP

Steve Young has impressive stats in his career but no where the stats Joe has. Kyle Orton may fall somewhere in between these two, only time will tell. He has a great opportunaty with the team and coach he has now. Jay Cutler remind me of Ryan Leaf. Where is he now?

by bfree2bronc on Jul 9, 2009 11:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Stop it. Please.

Kyle…. Orton… Steve…. Young… ???…

by oxmouth on Jul 10, 2009 12:53 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I mean,

I’m all for it and everything… if it turns out that way… but…

by oxmouth on Jul 10, 2009 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think the point was to say "Orton = Young!"

The point, really, was this: a QB’s performance does not occur in a vacuum. There needs to be a combination of things: QB talent (physically and mentally), supporting talent, system and coaching, and an environment that allows the QB to grow and maximize his potential.

We can bring up players such as Joe Montana, Steve Young, and Tom Brady as examples of what happens when EVERYTHING falls into place. Odds are, that won’t happen with Orton. But at the same time, there are some reasons to be excited about Orton this season. His scouting report suggested that his best fit would be to sit for a year or two on a team that runs more of a spread offense (instead of, say, starting year one on a run-first, defense oriented team). After a few years of learning, Orton is now in the “ideal” situation for his talents.

But like you said, if he becomes Steve Young…I won’t complain too much. :)

"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.

by Disco_Stu on Jul 10, 2009 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

i know what you're saying stu,

but these kind of topics always seem like a fixed deck of cards. it seems circular:

person A: this college kid has a strong arm and so did john elway, this bodes well for college kid’s career!
person B: wow. you’re comparing the college kid to elway?
person A: no.

i mean, i guess if the point of comparing orton to young is just to say that young got a second chance and did well and orton might too, well, okay, but like ksondere writes,“[Young’s] career was so good that he was projected to be the #1 pick in the NFL…and then the USFL gave him astounding 42 million dollar contract.”

So… how does that compare to Orton again? Oh yeah—the second chance thing.

i also think it’s perplexing how many of us have decided that cutler’s done learning and maturing but orton hasn’t tapped his potential yet. i guess that’s kind of a side dish though.

anyway, i agree with what you’re saying, stu, and with ksondere’s idea that a second chance will do neckbeard a heap of good, but i guess i felt like the steve young parallel is a big bite to swallow.

sorry about that whole thing. soapbox anyone? i’m done with it for now. ;-)

by oxmouth on Jul 10, 2009 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hear ya

reminds me of the Cutler Favre comparisons we heard for so long. But I think Stu is correct in saying that this article isn’t trying to say that Orton is Young II or anything literal like that. It seems like he is saying Young of all people should be able to see that good QB’s CAN end up in bad systems, before going to a system better suited to their skill set. Not that Orton will replicate Young’s path. A better literal comparison might be available in the form of Drew Brees, but I don’t think the literal comparisons will provide much in terms of production projections. All systems are too different and too complex to rely on previous performances by different players.

Can it happen? Yes, it has happened before.

Will it happen? We’ll have to wait and see.

Now I’ll get off my soapbox.

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Jul 10, 2009 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Young

It’s important to recall that Young wasn’t a very good player before he worked with Walsh. Young may turn out to be a very good parallel to Orton. Consider:

Young began his career in 1985 at Tampa Bay, posting 52.2 and 53.7% completion rates over his two years there. Yet, Walsh saw something in him that he liked.

Over the next few years, Walsh worked with him. He only came into a few games a year, and yet his completion rate increased each year. In 1991, he starts 10 games and posts a completion rate of 62.5%, which will be his worst until his career begins to wind down in 1998 (62.3%). He starts every game the next year. By working out issues with decision making, mechanics and footwork, he posts completion rates of up to 70.3 (1994). He is now consistently over 67%.

He would later say, “In Tampa Bay the coaches told me to hold the ball until the receiver became open. By that time everyone was on top of me. Now I have a progression of receivers and I hit the first one that’s open. It might be only a three yard gain, and maybe I could have waited and hit another receiver ten yards down the field, but I’ve completed a pass, moved the ball, and added to the frustration of defensive linemen trying to stop me.”

If you look at Orton in Chicago last year (I don’t have season tickets (nor airfare) but I do analyze each game on NFL Rewind) there are incessant attempts to find someone open before the line collapses and he gets his hat handed to him. Ditto his attempts to find the open receiver – ANY open receiver – that lead to him holding the ball too long. He does miss some receivers. The lack of rhythm or a timing offensive approach – which is the true hallmark of the West Coast Offense, no matter how the term is currently used – was all too apparent.

Most of those issues can be dealt with through coaching and improving the O line and receivers (Both Chi and Denver have very good TEs). This really is Orton’s chance to shine, but it won’t happen overnight. Changing teams, schemes and teammates will require a readjustment period. Still – there is a lot of reason to be very hopeful.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 12:42 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs

Yeah...that's what I was trying to say :-)

This really should have been the initial post. Well said BroncoBear

by ksondere on Jul 10, 2009 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed!

by Ponderosa on Jul 10, 2009 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hear this talked about often about the bears OLine

They were not great by any stretch of the imagination, but they weren’t bad either. They had Forte for nearly 1,300 yards rushing against a stacked line for the most part. And as far as protection your comments make them seem as if they were one of the NFL’s worst but they were ranked 13th in the NFL at 28 allowed. So they are actually above average in that category. Not in Denver’s league at 12 but they gave up one more sack per game then Denver for a guy who sometimes pats and holds the ball too long and with below average footwork.

by tfrabotta on Jul 10, 2009 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You have to look at hurries and knockdowns

You’re right – they weren’t the leagues worst. But they were better at rushing than pass pro (that’s a different skillset), and they were trying to buy Orton enough time to find an open receiver, which was often a thankless task. However – i watched an awful lot of film of last year – all the games, several multiple times – and they didn’t protect him well. Lots of hurries, too many knockdowns, and yes, more than double the sacks of Denver. That’s why Orton has his best career chance to show that he can produce this year, and we’ll see whatever we see.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Emmett Smith on Jul 10, 2009 5:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs