Horse Tracks 8/13/09 - Torain Waived, another Marcus Thomas added; BMarsh on trial today
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 13, 2009 6:10 AM MDT
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Update 10:07am EST. I knew I was forgetting something this morning as I put Tracks together...today is Broncobear's birthday. Happy Birthday, Doc! Hope it's a great one, my friend!
DB - Taking a Long Look - Chris Gentilviso
Josh McDaniels reminded the rookies that tomorrow's game is time for them to prove they belong.
DB - Day 13: McDaniels - Broncos TV
DB - Day 13: Orton - Broncos TV
I wonder if this guy gets excited about anything. Certainly doesn't matter, but Kyle doesn't seem to like talking to the press - like it's quite a chore...
DB - Day 13 Blog - Zach Eisendrath
LaMont Jordan returned to practice yesterday, while some of the rookies got to shave off their awful hairdos.
DP - Marshall takes in alma mater's practice before trial
BMarsh dropped in on UCF's football practice on his way to Atlanta for trial today and possibly tomorrow.
SI - Postcard from camp: Broncos - Ross Tucker
Tucker thinks Kyle Orton's cerebral persona and supporting cast make him a good fit for the Broncos. He likes Josh McDaniels' thick skin but isn't sold on the front seven. Andre' Goodman apparently thinks Alphonso Smith will be one of the five-best nickel corners by season's end. Tucker expects a big year out of Knowshon and was impressed by Richard Quinn and Chris Baker.
LTC - Salivating for sacks - Brian Howell
Although Elvis Dumervil won't predict how many sacks he'll tally in '09, he says he may have more opportunities this year thanks to his move back to OLB.
AP - McDaniels taking preseason stuff very seriously - Arnie Stapleton
LTC - Broncos’ Williams vying for more playing time
Brian Howell profiles Jack Williams
DP - Davis part of veteran look at LB - Jeff Legwold
McDaniels says 3-4 inside linebackers are a difficult commodity to find, with college programs looking for faster players at LB.
9NEWS - The only Shanahan on the sidelines
Kyle Shanahan is proud to be the only Shanahan working this year, and he says his allegiance is still with the Broncos as far as being a fan goes, and that after Texans games he rushes home to watch Denver.
DP - Broncos' schedule: Potential woes with tough foes
Klis reminds us that Denver has a tough schedule looming (had you heard?). Apparently the over/under has dropped to 7 wins as the under bets have poured in.
ESPN - Camp Confidential: McDaniels is in control - Pork Chop
DP - Fans, 49ers can expect to see plenty of top selection Moreno - Jeff Legwold
Torain apparently has a strained LCL and was expected to miss 3-4 weeks. Meanwhile, Darcel McBath will reportedly start in BDawk's free safety position.
DP - Dove Valley Days: Smith bolstering Broncos' secondary - Jeff Legwold
LTC - Buck's tops here - Brad Cochi
McDaniels praises Correll Buckhalter's versatility and work ethic.
DP - Mailbag: Practice picks a concern?
Woody thinks we should worry about Orton's practice INTs. Plus, somehow it matters that the Broncos' opponents have better QBs.
AP - Broncos Cut Oft-Injured Ryan Torain - Arnie Stapleton
Peyton Hillis points out that he's now the only remaining RB from '08 on the roster.
CSG - Broncos camp glance for Wednesday - Frank Schwab
CSG - Broncos notes: Team waives Torain - Frank Schwab
CSG - Broncos' Simms continues comeback after spleen injury - Frank Schwab
DB - Day 13: Transcripts - McDaniels and Orton
*********************************
SDUT - Forney appears to be set at RG
SDUT - Rookie's goal: Make Chargers say, 'We've got to keep this guy'
KCS - Chiefs safeties are ready to take it up a notch
KCS - Chiefs Buzz: Hali making progress
SFC - RAIDERS / Exhibition opener offers mini QB controversy
SFG - Raiders Silver and Black Blog : Mike Mitchell a scratch
*********************************
NFL - Texans LB Cushing suffers knee injury, could miss two preseason games
NFL - Colts safety Bethea misses practices with broken right hand
SI - Assessing season-ending injuries and their lasting effects on teams - Ross Tucker
NFP - Tavern talk: blue-chip players, part 3
Lombardi counts Marshall and Clady as Denver's blue chips, with Champ falling a bit below. He thinks McDaniels will be successful in Denver if he's given enough time.
SI - Postcard from camp: Colts - Peter King
SI - Titans look confident and poised to keep Super Bowl hopes alive - Don Banks
NFL - Deep, confident Bears team eager to kick off season - Thomas George
CBS - Falcons camp tour: Grimes, Houston face big challenge - Pete Prisco
FOX - These teams will challenge Lions for futility in '09
Peter Schrager is expecting horrid seasons from the Rams, Bucs and Browns.
NFP - Three teams Vick should be calling - Matt Bowen
Y! - Shockey Q&A: Full speed at all times - Jason Cole
Y! - Jarrett finally grasping Panthers' tough love - Charles Robinson
NFP - Diner morning news: Injuries happen - Mike Lombardi
NFP - Wednesday whys: Dealing with White’s contract - Andrew Brandt
NFP - Jets’ Jones: a good fit in Seattle - Matt Bowen
FOX - CAMP SIGHTS: Wrestling dad shaped Laurinaitis - Alex Marvez
NYT - Greatest Quarterback by the Numbers: Peyton Manning? - Toni Monkovic
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Thanks Nyc
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
Mornin nyc, Thanks for...
Mornin Kap.
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
“Plus, somehow it matters that the Broncos’ opponents have better QBs.”
I would say yes. Teams with better QB play tend to win more games than they lose.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
You make a valid point, McG. But when looking over a schedule to figure out who’s likely to win, one should be thinking, “Who has the better team?” rather than “Which team has the better QB?”
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 13, 2009 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Keep in mind that the question of “Who has the better QB” didn’t seem to play into the results of Orton’s games in Chicago. His teams racked up a fine record in games he started, and no, I would not venture to call him the “better QB” in most of those matchups…
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 13, 2009 8:11 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
It takes 11 guys to get the ball into the end zone, not one.
by TheMastermind on Aug 13, 2009 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1: Excellent retort.
Orton will have to play well in Denver, but with all that talent we got on O (and we have more talent on O that most NFL teams), you’d think we should be able win our fair share of games.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 13, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks for the update nyc,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO BEAR,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO BEAR,
YOUR WISH FOR A SUPERBOWL,
IS GRANTED, DOCBEAR.
You’ll see them there……….
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
Thanks NYC...
Loved this quote from Ross Tucker’s piece (Andre Goodman on Alphonso Smith…
Goodman told me Smith has the ideal skills to be the nickel corner, defending slot receivers on a weekly basis. In fact, Goodman said Smith will be one of the five best in the league by season’s end, which is high praise for any rookie at any position.
MS: Jake, no matter what happens, never throw the ball from the end zone with your left hand.
JP: But...
by Plummer's But on Aug 13, 2009 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Happy birthday to you
You live in a zoo
You look like a……… bear?
Oh, damn. Guess that isn’t going to work. Anyway, happy birthday Doc and thanks for the Tales!
No stairway... Denied!
Yeah, happy birthday bear
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
many happy returns o' the day, bear!
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks, NYC.
And Happy Birthday, Bear!
"How dare you condemn me without knowing all the facts?!!"
by Tempestuous Binary on Aug 13, 2009 8:50 AM MDT reply actions
Thanks NYC!
I particularly liked the Tucker article, as others have also indicated. It was a nice combination of what looks good and what doesn’t at this stage. It’s nice to read specifics from a MSM writer for a change.
by ShawnDenver on Aug 13, 2009 9:04 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Quick note about the Tucker article.
He confuses Renaldo Hill and Reynaldo Hill. Several people here and elsewhere have as well.
Reynaldo Hill is the Tennessee Titans’ cornerback. Renaldo Hill is the Broncos’ safety.
"How dare you condemn me without knowing all the facts?!!"
by Tempestuous Binary on Aug 13, 2009 9:28 AM MDT reply actions
Benie Wells
Has anyone else noticed how Wells is hurt in camp and people are getting down on him? I remember the day of the draft experts saying that he should be the number 1 RB taken.
Personally, I am happy to have Moreno.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Wells is soft, for a big guy
He has always been injury-prone, and has never run as physically as his size would make you imagine. I even liked Donald Brown better than him, and so did the Colts, incidentally.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Aug 13, 2009 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions
The Tucker piece was pretty good
Although he did go the same route that I’ve seen so many journalists take. He states the biggest concern on our D is with the front 7. He then elaborates by listing our D line and stating that several teams backups are better than our starting 3 linemen (starting being they were on our very first depth chart), but there is no mention of the LB’s.
That seems to be a recurring theme with the media. They state how awful our front 7 are but only give evidence of this by using our D linemen. What they should be stating is how awful our D Line is. Sure there are question marks at OLB, but not because of talented players, just lack of experience. It’s hard to make a case for how awful our ILB’s are however. Yet over and over again, it’s our entire front 7 that suck according to the MSM.
“The problem is that the front 7 suck, don’t believe me? Just look at 3 of those 7 positions. See I was right.” What kind of argument is that?
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
Let me ask you this: If you could select a single strength for a defense (great D-line, or great LBs or great secondary) what would you pick.
I would think that most GMs would pick D-line in a heartbeat.
Let’s hope our D-line plays better than their press clippings. Too me, it still looks like we have the least talented D-line in the NFL. Based on MSM reviews of what they see at our practices, those views have not changed. The MSM sees several training camps and have the ability to compare and contrast better than Bronco fans that just watch our guys vs our guys and last year’s team.
Hope our D-line guys prove the MSM wrong, but I’m far from certain they will. VERY FAR from certain.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
I agree that our D line is our weakness
I just find it funny that since our D Line is our weakness, that equates to our front 7 sucks. Why can’t they just say our D Line sucks, when that is what they are meaning by saying our front 7 sucks.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
Our LBs are more unknown that underwhelming.
You’d think sports writers could differentiate. But with guys like Bill Williamson getting paid to write about sports, you should probably lower your expectations across the board.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
Agreed
On both points. I would say that just our OLB’s are unknown. There is definitely talent in that group but they are all switching from undersized DE’s so they are all ? marks. It’s hard to argue how poor DJ Williams and Andre Davis are however.
I would just like to see something more along the lines of: great secondary, solid ILB’s, potential but questions at OLB, and a poor D line as a summary of our defense. You know, something based on reality. Something other than their front 7 sucks.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
Clarification, last sentence of 1st paragraph
It’s hard to make the argument that DJ Williams and Andre Davis are “poor”.*
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
I’ll be honest, DJ Williams is overrated in my mind (and that is coming from a Univ of Miami alum). His lack of improvement since his rookie year really bothers me and his play at the end of 2008 was atrocious. I know he was playing hurt and he has been moved all over the field for the past few years. But if he doesn’t have a big year for Denver in 2009, I think it will be time to cut ties and give his big paycheck to more deserving players.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
He's had 4 DCs
and about as many position changes. If you listen to the new guys on radio, they RAVE about DJ Williams.
Too, and this goes to your point about MSM guys and DLine comparisons, they don’t see many practices (generally one), and they come in with a number of preconceptions that almost certainly colors their judgment. It’s a form of both selection bias and consensus pressure.
Our D-line may turn out to be sub-par. I suspect they’ll be just fine, particularly if we rotate them intelligently. But only time will whether we should believe the rubber-stamped reports of our general D-line suckitude, or whether we should believe the more recent local reports that are beginning to hedge a bit against those early pronouncements: is Marcus Thomas getting a big push at DE? Is Ryan McBean really looking as fearsome as some are painting him to be? Is Peterson better than we thought? Is Baker going to be as good as some people are beginning to project?
Re: the Tucker piece… We hear that the problem might be generating a pass rush; and yet, Alfred Williams, most notably, has said that this team will have no problems in that regard — given the strength and athleticism of the OLBs. We know that Dumervil can rush the passer. Williams seems to think Ayers and Crowder will be beasts, as well. And pass rush has been the biggest concern for me, short of OLBs in coverage.
Personally, I don’t think our run defense would have looked nearly so bad last year had the safety and linebacker play been better. And this year, we’re much bigger up front, with a proven line coach, so I don’t expect much of a drop-off on the d-line, if any. A pass rush, an adequate line, and a top notch secondary should make us a pretty decent defense.
An interesting observation I heard from Charlie Casserly: he seems to think that the Denver defense this year is built to get teams to run against them, meaning it will take much longer for opponents to score, not least because the defensive backfield will limit breakaway runs and will prove tough to pass against.
Given that, he thinks the Broncos offense is built to outscore its defensive counterparts’ weaknesses.
by JeffG on Aug 13, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Casserly
Interesting point, and I can see some of the logic in that philosophy: eat up time, force the offense to run more plays (and most likely, number of mistakes), then capitalize on those miscues.
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
I'm excited for DJ
If I had to put a couple bucks down, I’d put them on “over” for DJ potential this year…but that said, good point here. I think DJ has one or two years left to make the leap from “good or very good” to the level of “great” that most of us think he should be in.
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
A leap DJ Williams has yet to make at any point in his career. He reminds me of Derrick Johnson in KC. They both have a great rep and paycheck, but are just good players. Hence, my overrated remark, which I think is justified at this point. I hope he reaches his Pro Bowl potential this season. But players usually don’t show a big leap in improvement this late in a career (year 6).
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
I just don't see him as over-rated
I’ve heard this kind of talk from so many people that if anything, I would say he’s under-rated. He was an absolute beast last year before his injury. He missed several games, then came back still hurt and that play during the end of 08 is how people are judging DJ? He still finished 2nd in tackles on our D with 93. This after missing several games and then playing hurt for several more. If DJ was playing for the Giants he would be a media darling, a household name. Like I said, if anything he is under-rated.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
The MSM sees several training camps and have the ability to compare and contrast better than Bronco fans that just watch our guys vs our guys and last year’s team.
Great point. While I’m no fan of lazy reporting, this is one strong aspect of the pundits’ game that is hard to deny.
On a side note, be sure to check out the excellent post thread on the MSM and journalistic ethics — highly, highly rec’d. I’m having a hard time lumping all the pundits under a single MSM label now.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Good point, I had the same thought
I enjoyed that article over all, and think having concern about the DL is legit, but I didn’t understand the way he evidenced it.
This part is also an ineffective way to prove the D will be bad this year:
“One front office executive told me recently while grading starters around the league that last year’s Broncos offense had 14 players deserving of solid starter grades. The defense had four.”
(Emphasis mine) The defense will be better this year over last year, he says, but it still won’t be good because — it wasn’t good last year? There’s a better way of saying that.
Anyway, yes the front guys are either a concern or at least an unknown, but there is talent there and with a 3-4 one has to look at their linebackers, too.
Oh well, I did like getting his POV on their training camp though.
by underdog on Aug 13, 2009 9:53 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
+10000
Sending good vibes Brandon’s way. Hoping for a speedy acquittal, a strong season, and a big fat Broncos contract in ’10!
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions
in '10 is the key!
Stay healthy
Stay out of trouble
and for that advise I only ask for Brandon to pay off my mortgage with his new fat contract
From the AP story
It was typical McDaniels, who is meticulous in his preparation and doesn’t have an ounce of tolerance for ambiguity.
A man after my own heart. Take care of the little things, and the big things will handle themselves.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 10:34 AM MDT reply actions
sorry/anyway
me and my stupid dashes habit.
Anyway, I’m going with a friend but we got great seats from another friend, so I’ll be pretty close. If I notice anything interesting from being there live will pass it on.
From the SI story
The subject of scrutiny already, McDaniels seems to realize the honeymoon period is over as a result of the contentious Cutler situation, which ended in his trade to Chicago.
What honeymoon? Did McDaniels have a honeymoon and nobody told me about it? LOL
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 10:45 AM MDT reply actions
Found this funny
The longtime Philadelphia Eagle was his typical focused and confident self when I spoke with him, expressing serious frustration at the bad-mouthing his new defense has received. Expect Dawkins to play a major role in the run defense as the eighth man in the box. The Broncos front seven simply isn’t good enough to get the job done on their own and will need the hard-hitting Dawkins to set the tone in the running game and then rely on the new secondary to handle its business on the back end.
See what he did there? He went from saying that Dawkins is frustrated by the bad-mouthing of the D, then by way of example he bad-mouthed the D! I’m dizzy!! : )
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith's rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 13, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
:-D
Joe Sakic was pure class, win or lose, at all times.
by Colorado_Kitten on Aug 13, 2009 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I laughed when I read that...
…In the article, and pointed out to my wife how he played that. Dawkins told me how frustrated he is at people badmouthing his defense, which sucks by the way. Seriously?
"It's okay to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings" - Kurt Kobain
by JChase8410 on Aug 14, 2009 12:02 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
From Adam Schefter re BMarsh
(just a few mins ago on twitter):
From what I’m hearing, a verdict in the WR Brandon Marshall trial is expected to come down Friday. Big day for him and the Broncos.
Thanks NYC
Keep up the great work. The Tucker article in SI wasn’t bad. A little more substance than the normal “camp visit” articles.
What a difference a year makes. Last year all we could talk about at MHR was BMarsh and his legal situation. Today Marshall is on trial which could mean a lengthy suspension and possible criminal punishment…or could mean the legal problems are behind him and he could get the new contract he’s been after. And this has virtually been a non-story at MHR. Crazy!
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
If he's found guilty,
I’m guessing 4-8 game suspension.
Thanks always NYC
I didn’t get the same vibe you did on the Orton interview. I thought he answered everything well and it didn’t see like he wanted to be somewhere else so to speak. I am looking forward to tomorrow’s game to see how he does along with being on the road. I don’t expect perfection, however an offense that moves the chains and takes what the defense gives them.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Hear ya, W. I’m not knocking him, and it’s nothing specific to this interview in particular. He’s just always very monotone and seems uninterested. Doesn’t matter at all, just my observation. I’d be the same way, quite frankly…
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 13, 2009 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions
As long as he doesn't give the MSM
a quote or something to make a stupid story about.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
A very special birthday wish for broncobear!
May you continue to enlighten us for many years to come. I’ve been entertained and challenged by your great posts and look forward to many more. Thanks Doc.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein
I second that
Many, many,many.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
Huge Happy Birthday wishes
and a friggin’ BOATLOAD of salmon for you, big guy!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
Happy Birthday Bear
One of these days I’m going to have to meet up with you and buy you a beer. One of these days…
"It's okay to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings" - Kurt Kobain
by JChase8410 on Aug 14, 2009 12:05 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
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