Kyle Orton Baseline Analysis: Preseason Game 1
It became obvious to me in the aftermath of the game, reading through the comments on the myriad posts that went up, that Kyle Orton's performance was a lightning rod for the game. I immediately shelved much of my work for the game and focused on breaking down his throws.
But please keep in mind where I am coming from. I am deeply passionate about this idea; I have yet to yield to any argument against it. Right now, The Process is More Important Than the Outcome.
Memorize it. Write it down. Burn it into your flesh if you have to. And I'm not just talking about the score of the game. In analyzing Orton's throws, little weight is given to whether it ended up in a defender's hands, on the ground, or in Royal's mitts. What matters is HOW it got there. Right now, nothing matters more to the Broncos than being on a fulfilling path, a path where they build on strengths and excise weaknesses. It is important to be on a path to success, not to simply have a few successes, by hook or by crook. This is going to be a focus on The Path.
Some quick disclaimers here, for those not familiar with my style: I scout college talent and use that same approach to evaluate players for the Broncos, and for each position I cover a plethora of static and dynamic criteria. For example, I grade out a QB's drop-back, how well he sets up to throw, his pocket presence, etc. For QBs in particular I track 19 possible evaluation criteria, though not all the criteria may crop up on any individual play. The average is right around 13 grades per play. Each grade rates from 1-6, with 6 being a perfect example, 1 being a total failure, and most plays clocking in right around the middle. I then derive a percentage from those grades that can be applied to either the play as a whole, or combined across a range of plays to give an average idea of skill in one particular area of evaluation. Of course, a higher percentage reflects well on a player, and a lower percentage indicates a lot more work is needed. In my experience, for the NFL, VERY GOOD play is above 90%, AVERAGE play is right around 80%, and BAD play is 70% and less.
This system isn't perfect. I make no such claim. But it is true and consistent, and it becomes more accurate all the time as I learn more about the game and what it is exactly that I am looking at.
With all that in mind, let's break down the tape on Orton's throws...
All in all, Orton had 17 gradable throws (including one that was nullified on a penalty, but which still can be graded on his end). Of these 17 throws, I successfully broke down 14 of them. Due to a recording error I was unable to process his first three throws, so I would like to quickly address that issue here.
I did see the throws even though I couldn't evaluate them, and they all carried the general impression of being good throws. By most common measurements they can be classified as good, and were completions. Outside of noting their location on the field, they will not be included in this analysis, though I would like everyone to remain cognizant that if they WERE included, they would likely only improve the overall rating we come up with.
Now onto what I did grade:
Throw #4: Overall grade 93%
This was a pre-snap read based on a motion player, namely LaMont Jordan out of the backfield. Based on the coverage (a LB lined up wide) the correct read was to Jordan on the stop route, especially with the LB playing 10 yards off. Orton graded out highly overall on this play with a great setup, good mechanics, and good timing for a player who is not a common WR. The ball had plenty of zip and was placed well.
Throw #5: Overall grade 77%
A nice quick drop and progression was offset by a poor setup as he threw too quickly and out of rhythm. Needed to get his foot a bit more forward and really get into the throw. As it was, he released a duck that wobbled but was complete to Royal. The accuracy was affected by the lack of velocity on the throw, and as a result Eddie had to go low to catch it and was touched down in the turf. However the play was an excellent pre-snap read again, and Eddie was the best choice of two clearly open WRs.
Throw #6: Overall grade 62%
Again, a good drop followed by a poor setup. He's making decisions quickly, but perhaps too quickly as this is now two throws in a row where he throws from a position halfway between his back foot and being set up, and this one gets to Gaffney too late.
Throw #7: Overall grade 100%
This throw looks great from start to finish. A great read and progression followed by a solid step up and into his throw. Well balanced with a complete follow-through, and the ball zips nicely with plenty of speed to a sideline out-route. Timing and placement is terrific, and Jackson gets the ball in stride with an opportunity to turn upfield if the coverage isn't great (it was).
Throw #8: Overall grade 99%
Receivers run very similar routes from different positions here, and Orton connects again on another picture-perfect out-route, this time to Eddie. A good setup and throw, but the ball was misplaced, forcing Eddie to turn a bit to pull it in - nothing serious. I still haven't decided whether that is planned (throwing to an inside shoulder on those types of routes) but it happens often enough and doesn't seem to be a problem with the execution of the play when I see it... Possibly an instance of QB-WR preference. In this case, a very nice throw and catch.
Throw #9: Overall grade 64%
D'OH! A decent drop-back, but the play action is a complete no-sell after three steps on the drop. Orton is visibly off balance, and steps right into a collapsing pocket (though it is to the side where he has extra protection, so maybe more a design thing and less an instinctual thing). The accuracy is way off, and even without the DB right there, he leads Graham way too much. Release looks good, so the error will be chalked up to decision making and accuracy. Despite stepping incorrectly in the pocket, however, he keeps his feet bouncing and is in decent position for the throw, and doesn't hurry it in the face of the rush. From a technical standpoint, not his worst throw yet; but close enough.
Throw #10: Overall grade 81%
Ahh, the designed bootleg, a Shanny classic, featuring the Hillisinator himself. Orton really looks good on the roll-out, but once again, there isn't quite enough effort to sell the fake, though better than last time. Orton throws well on the move, his accuracy is good (in this instance a function of arm strength) and he shows a hint of touch putting it right in Hillis' breadbasket (does Hillis eat bread? Maybe it should be an antimatter basket?) Overall a nice throw and catch, and Orton's mechanics on the move seem quite sound. Gotta work on selling that fake though...
Throw #11: Overall grade 74%
Now we get into an area that I like to call "can't get 'stoked' up." The next three throws look very similar to one another, the pair at the beginning looking similar by formation, the pair at the end looking similar by route. All three feature Stokley as the target. On this one Orton drops well, but throws quickly, barely setting up at all, and the throw is way off target, going behind Stokley. Stokley's route is odd...almost like it was run too close to Eddie, but no way to know for sure. Orton looks good in the pocket, but seemed to have been going on a pre-snap read. From the looks of the route, this play works similar to a "bubble screen" though the player doesn't (or didn't as the case may be) "bubble", that is, work back and then forward to the line of scrimmage. Overall Orton grades out pretty rough on this play, in what amounts to a fraction of a second of playtime. Football can be cruel like that....
Throw #12: Overall grade 94%
This play looks much, much better than the previous one, and Orton spends a second in the pocket letting the routes develop. He also sets up perfectly and delivers a ball with good velocity while stepping just to the side a little in his release to throw around a defender. In fact, the play looks perfect until the Niner DB gets his hand inside of Stokley's body for the deflection. A tight window throwing into a unit in coverage mode. Overall a good play but little room for error.
Throw #13: Overall grade 85%
Similar formation to the previous play, again Stokley is targeted. Orton's mechanics in the pocket are excellent and he gets into the throw giving it good velocity. One thing that bothered me was Orton didn't seem to look away from Stoke's side - and of course, when the throw was released, everything was great except for the intended target. There was either a misread by Orton, or a misread by the receiver, but Stokley and the ball weren't going to meet on that play. A critical mistake by someone at the last second reduces the overall grade of an otherwise perfect play. I will say that I hedge towards thinking that Stokley ran the wrong route, partly because of the post-play body language, and also by how quickly Stokley went into defensive-back mode after the INT, like he knew right away that he screwed up. But with no way to know for sure, Orton is penalized in this analysis for a misread. (If I were evaluating the whole play, including Stokley, they both would be credited with the mistake.)
Throw #14: Overall grade 48%
Horrible play, and the only throw of this drive (obviously, since it was an INT). Orton's drop-back was unfinished and he never set up his feet. He did however make a good choice on the open Gaffney, but with such horrible mechanics the ball had no drive behind it and two DBs were lined up between Gaffney and the ball. The defender's leap was a great one, but not super-spectacular or anything. Orton's body language was that of a shanking golfer, knowing he didn't get enough on it as soon as it was out of his hand. He had absolutely no follow-through on the pass.
Throw #15: Overall grade 83%
Not the best setup again, but his footwork is noticeably better on this drive, though not perfect. Orton doesn't move very well in the pocket on this play, but puts a bit 'o touch on a short lob over a defender to Royal, who does a good job of YACing. His placement and accuracy despite the poor pocket showing are impressive, and show how well he can execute the short game.
Throw #16: Overall grade 83%
Another pre-snap read that is excellent, but Orton moves into and then tries to throw around pressure on the left side. I like that he is always stoic in the pocket, but he keeps moving poorly in the pocket, and the result is not the best position or angle for his throws. The throw in this case wobbles to the right and is off target to Royal. Again, an excellent play up to and just after the snap, but falls short due to poor mechanics (his release this time).
Throw #17: Overall grade 66%
This was the most obvious example of Orton reading heavy coverage, and with only a three-man rush he moved around well enough, but couldn't seem to calm down and set up properly. He finally went with a short toss to Jackson that was well placed, but not the best choice on the field. Overall a barely average play. And his last one of the night.
Overall Grade Averages
(for a breakdown of exactly what each of these categories entails, see here.)
| Drop-back | 95% |
| Setup | 77% |
| Release | 81% |
| Accuracy | 73% |
| Poise | 81% |
| Decision Making | 83% |
| Field Vision | 80% |
| Delivery | 82% |
| Timing | 77% |
| Ball Handling | 58% |
| Follow Through | 76% |
| Rush Avoid | 67% |
| Pocket Presence | 85% |
| Rollout | 100% |
| Arm strength | 77% |
| Velocity | 77% |
| Touch | 75% |
Overall Impressions, and Where do We Go from Here?
First off, I would certainly qualify this as a bad game, and outside of his pre-snap reads and drop-back mechanics, he has many, many things to work on.
Right now, Orton's strengths appear to be his conceptual grasp of the offense, but not his instinctual grasp of it (as is to be expected). He tends to know where and why, but in the heat of battle he loses track of the little things, like stepping into his throws, or moving up in the pocket for an extra second.
He also looks very good standing tall in the pocket. If he was rattled or shellshocked, or just plain scared, it didn't show. His mistakes were rooted in fundamental errors, common for someone thinking too hard and not doing the small things instinctually. There were even times when I would have liked to see him scramble a bit, just to see what he could generate in that area, but he appeared to be either under orders, or very cognizant of sticking with his pocket and making the most of it. This is probably the best strategy, since it is unlikely he will be let down very often by this pocket. Throwing on the move doesn't seem to be a problem, but with such a small sample size, we'll hold out on judgment there.
In general his release looks good, it is quick, without unnecessary action, and he delivers a nice, catchable ball. When he isn't betrayed by footwork and positioning in the pocket, he makes all of his throws.
Where we really need to see improvement is in moving around in the pocket. He isn't moving instinctually AT ALL in there, and his play-action 'fakes' are real groaners. There were only two run, back to back (technically, there was plenty of time in between them), and neither seemed to be sold all that well. In fact, the first one brought up one defensive player IN A GOAL LINE situation. They guessed we were going to pass, and the play action didn't throw them off at all.
It would also be nice to see him setting up more consistently. Early on, even on good overall throws, his forward foot wasn't ideally placed, and it took something off of his throws. A player who has spent enough time backing up in the pocket will develop those kinds of tendencies, and it remains to be seen how quickly he un-learns that, because it is affecting his velocity and accuracy on a regular basis.
On the topic of accuracy, I like what I see (when I see it), especially his ability to put just the right amount of touch on his throws; but this was a relatively small sampling for that.
This game really featured heavily for routes run on and to the right side. Out of 17 throws, only 4 ever wandered to the left (Dre' Bly covers the right side...maybe he is some kind of strange magnet?), and only five ever went more than 5 yards through the air. There was only a single deep throw, so that isn't a sampling one can hang their hat on, for good or bad, but given that everything went wrong mechanically on that throw, I feel safe saying the jury is still out on this Bronco's deep ball. Despite throwing to the right so often, he found five different receivers there, and the only disappointment I really had in the receiver department was that he never was able to establish a connection with Stokley. Factor in the lack of strong impressions left by Stokley in camp, and you have to wonder how much more time they will need in order to get on the same page, and just what the problem is here....
I hope this establishes a good baseline to work from, in order to gauge and measure Orton's progress as we work through not only the preseason, but into the regular season as well. For an offense that requires a Master's in footballosophy to run well, Orton's first test seems to show that he at least deserves to keep coming to class. I've seen enough 'borderline' talents to know that Orton is certainly not in that group. All the tools are there, and with experience and consistency, I look forward to watching this QB's growth.
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Thanks Joe!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions
My pleasure.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Great stuff styg, thanks
I’d love to see this kind of analysis for regular season games, too (when possible). As I’m working on the assumption that Orton will improve as he learns the offense and as the rust comes off. considering those two factors I’d say this overall grade is encouraging. But yeah, again, would be curious to see a throw by throw breakdown for at least one game in a month or so, too. Thanks again.
WOW
Simply amazing article. Please send a copy to all MSM… they need it!
Hope you will do a similar thing after game 2, and see if there is any progress.
Thanks!
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
This establishes a baseline
and hopefully what we see int eh coming games is incremental increases across the board. By the end of preseason it is hoped that he is truly showing what kind of QB he can be.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Great analysis as always Styg
To kind of expand upon the point of not looking comfortable with the offensive system, we can look at the performance of four other veteran QBs in new systems. On Friday and Saturday a total of 5 veteran QBs played their first games in their new system; Kyle Orton, Matt Cassel, Derrick Anderson, Brady Quinn and, of course, Jay Cutler.
Of the 5 none looked good. Kyle obviously had the 3 INTs and styg, among others, has pointed out his struggles . Matt Cassel suffered many of the same problems, with the exception of adding a fumbled snap. Of the 5, those 2 struggled the most, though Cassel’s sample size is vastly smaller. However, it should be pointed out that those 2 also are learning the most complex offenses. Of the other 3, Cutler looked the better, not too hard when competing with Anderson and Quinn, yet, there were still clear instances of happy feet and forced balls (a Cutler fav). One of those was picked, another should have been. Anderson was terrible in his short series, while Quinn was better, yet, still had moments of inaccuracy and tentativness.
Yes, Orton’s performance was bad. But was it out of character for QBs in a new system? Not really. His results were perhaps more disasterous, but at the same time he didn’t appear completely uncomfortable as Cassel did. And as styg points out, there was good to build upon. However, it will take time.
But great breakdown styg and I look forward to watching McDaniels and Orton build upon this performance.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
by Randall15 on Aug 16, 2009 2:03 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
a year ago I did something similar for Jay
Cutler targeted 8 different receivers, all 8 eligible “starting” class receivers while he was in the game. He completed passes to 7 of them, with only Hall being left out. The would-be Hall reception was one of only two checkdowns Cutler attempted, and the drop scored lower for Cutler than it did for Hall. Though there wasn’t any pressure the play had probably ticked down to zero in Cutler’s head, and he threw the ball far too forcefully to Hall who was releasing from a block to uncover as an option. The result was that the ball arrived just as Hall was turning around, and before he could present to the QB, and the ball struck him in the chest/hands and went straight into the dirt. While both players were penalized, Cutler received a stiffer penalty, since he should be delivering that ball with some touch. A softer pass can get over the line better, gives the checkdown guy a half second more to get turned around and look for the ball, and will give a second chance option to the back instead of catapulting who-knows-where, likely up and into the defense’s waiting hands. Not a big penalty, but in a game with so few for Cutler, worth noting.
Cutler scored “above average” or better on 91% of his passing attempts, including a “perfect” on the secondary route to Brandon Marshall in the endzone. A particularly ballsy play, Cutler had to throw over a triple covered Royal, yet still get it low and away to give Marshall a chance and nullify the coverage on Marshall. A small window that Cutler nailed like a seasoned pro.
Going forward the things to watch will be how he plays under pressure (a constant source of frustration last year) and how well he keeps up the consistency with distribution left/right/center, short/medium/long, and amongst his receivers. When he plays like this, EVERYBODY looks good.
note: this is his 2008 preseason analysis after the Dallas game…
Those were the days….the Plummer controversey was resting relatively quietly and things were pretty secure. It felt good to breakdown a QB, and less like a necessity, or emergency. But hindsight shows us just how stagnant those placid waters were. All this change and effort is certainly rattling, for us and for the palyers on the field, and based on coaching changes alone, the league as a whole is singing much the same tune. Outside of the surprise darkhorses (I hope Denver is one, like MIA was last year) I think the favorites have to be those teams that maintained consistency from the end of last year, and there really isn’t a whole lot of them…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Indeed.
And Cutler’s early struggles in what amounts to a basic NFL offense, just illustrates the complexities that a new QB faces when suiting up for a new team.
Hopefully the consitency at the receiving corp and O-line help speed up the process for Orton.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
*consistency
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
Styg, you and your fellow MHR contributers
continue to raise the bar for user created works not only on SBN but on any website, sports or what have you
let the naysayers and the people who are too cautious to be excited sit and find something wrong with this
as for me im gonna go pick up orton in my fantasy league (since the joker who drafted him just dropped him after that 3 INT display for sage rosenfells)
"Have you ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?"
- "I don't listen to hip-hop"
"Born like this / Into this"
I wish I had the time to get into FF again...
I had a lot fo fun with the MHR crew last year, and I was glad to bring my team out of retirement to do it, but man, I wasted a lot of time on those rosters… :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Play direction
I, too,noted that Orton was throwing more to the right. What interested me was that this wasn’t his strongest side last season, and I wondered at the disparity.
During 2008, here are his numbers going left:
172 attempts, 62.8% completions, 6.75 YPA, TD% 5.23, INT% 2.91, Rating 87.9
While going right, he had:
239 attempts, 56.5% completions, 6.43 YPA, TD% 2.93, INT % 1.67, Rating 78.7
The numbers were put together by nycbroncosfan, as usual and I thank his again for them. While there may be other factors – where each player lined up or favored, etc, given these numbers, I would look for more plays on the left as we progress through the season. I thought it interesting that Orton’s numbers on passes thrown over the middle were fairly poor. I wasn’t sure how much of that was scheme/receiver and how much was Orton. My sense was that it was a combination of the two – one of Kyle’s weaknesses was/is his tendency to throw a ‘flat’ ball, and too many were tipped over the middle.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Maybe
McD. knows Orton’s weakness is the right side and he’s designing and calling plays to force Kyle to get more comfortable on that side. Maybe not, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised….
by chopperpilot on Aug 16, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
With a guy like Marshall on your right side...
it’s tough to keep that a weakness.
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
Good catch
With a guy like Royal on the right side it’s tough to keep that as a weakness ; )
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
That is definitely part of the knowledge base I wanted to stimulate...
I am pretty much watching Orton for the first time, so for me this is all Step One. But for a lot of you guys, thsi is just the Latest Development…
Oline scheme could be an issue for the over the middle passes, and WR tendencies could certainly be an underlying cause for the distribution rating…playbook is also a factor.
Frankly, I don’t know what to think of it.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice job.
This confirms some of my own speculations. I don’t think Orton was ever rattled. Instead, it looked to me like he’s going off of a mental clock set to a much worse O-line, and that he hasn’t yet gotten to the point where he can read defenses almost as second nature. Additionally, as you point out, some of his footwork problems not related to the amount he’s trying to process likely stem from several years of passing after 3 stop drops with a collapsing pocket.
I’m glad to hear someone confirm my observation that the pick on the throw to Stokely wasn’t an inaccurate pass; rather, it was a miscommunication, and though Orton took it on himself in the post-game interview, I think Stokely was supposed to be inside of Bly on that play.
Other QBs may have hung the receiver out to dry for that when being interviewed. * Cough cough.*
These guys are going to rally around Orton, is my guess.
LOL.
Cutler would have definitely hung Stoke out to dry.
by chopperpilot on Aug 16, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Most of what Orton was asked to run was of the 5 step drop variety
And while not universally true, that should correspond with a greater number and more complex patterning of routes. The shotgun also speaks to this, so it is likely that he simply doesnt have the patince yet, as is noted elsewhere.
It is like he is using instincts, but they are hte WRONG instincts…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions
This is exactly what I saw at the practice in Mile High too
His mental clock is still set for the Bear O-line. You can tell after about 2.5 seconds his alarm goes off and his movements begin to get jerky and unnatural. I agree completely that he is still “over thinking” the play. The good news is that most of this will shake itself out with more real-time practice. This is a very common problem for experienced QBs that change systems and O-lines and is usually fixed after 3-4 real-time games/ practices. Personally, I’m not worried but it is something to keep an eye on as the preseason continues.
by rollinthunder on Aug 17, 2009 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions
thanks!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm here to serve :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions
KO has more touch on his passes than Cutler
KO threw INTs that the D could hang onto while Jay’s passes caused the Buffalo D to have the dropsies. Ah well, these things are always a work in progress.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
I will say that Cutler could have excellent touch
if he wanted to. He had some truly beautiful little screen lobs and he could toss those WR bubble screens perfectly (however, I don’t think he audibled them correctly, and Bates certainly didn’t call them properly…)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Incredible explanation
Styg… I have about 18 years of “bleeding orange” (or, in the early days, brown and yellow – but who knew on black and white TV) on you and have not, in all those years, read a better analysis of a quarterback or a game, for that matter. I have been scouring the web for a decent article about this totally redesigned team after the first preseason game and have totally struck out. Please keep the wonderful insights coming through the season. Thanks!
by moneylifeboat on Aug 16, 2009 2:51 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Glad you found something you like!
You should check out the archives as there is a ton of great stuff around here. HT’s MHR University is one of the most popular features, and he had several this year where he talked about the “redesign” of this team, especially the defense.
Welcome aboard!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Perfect way to evaluate for the pre-season.
Styg hits the nail on the head. In a regualr season game, where winning is everything, we look at the results. No TDs, 3 INTs, etc. But in a preseason game, we should (or at least the professional coaches on Denver’s staff will) look at each play and player for the mechanics involved, in order to evaluate performance issues and make adjustments.
Many fans can focus on wins or INTs or something like that, but it isn’t helpful in the pre-season. I hear a lot of complaining from Colts fans where I live (“We lost the game; our season is over!”) and Bears fans (“Cutler threw an INT; he sucks!”). The proper way (not the required way, of course) is to watch for, well, some of the things I wrote about in my pre-game article about “What to watch for”, which could have been subtitled, “What NOT to watch for”.
Styg does what a coach would do. Instead of focusing on the results of big plays (like TDs or INTs), he focuses on the mechanics behind the player’s technique, and looks for solutions or potential problems. What I get out of Styg’s article (as well as my own observation of the game) is that Orton made the kind of mistakes we expect from a QB thinking too much in a system that is new to him. Much (not all) of these problems will correct… even by the second game. I expected Orton to have two INTs in this game, but they were still unpleasant to see (especialy the third one, only because it was the third). But I liked what I saw in between, and I don’t think Orton (a careful passer) is going to all of a sudden become an interception prone QB because of one “pre-season” game with a new team where he was tasked to perform in roles that would be played (and played out) much differently than a regular season game.
Despite 3 INTs, I was impressed with Orton’s basics. I could have watched a game and seen 3 TDs and no INTs and come away dissapointed too. But again, I’m watching mechanics and technique right now, and NOT the score board.
Folks can come to different and valid conclusions, even using the model Styg and / or I use. (Mine is based on years of watching and coaching, while Styg’s use of numbers and ratings are based on the exceptional mind of a scientist / engineer who knows and has a solid understanding of the game). There is plenty in Styg’s analysis to use against Orton, and plenty to support. But it is Styg’s context of evaluating the play on a microcosmic level that is correct, whatever the conclusions one comes to.
Orton wasn’t “good”, but he wasn’t the disaster the media is making him out to be. If this were the regular season, and I was rating him as a regular season QB, I’d give him an “F”. But it wasn’t. I’d rate his abilities and traits (based on several plays, not weighted at all by “major good or bad results like TDs and INTs”) as somewhere between a B- and B.
And as Styg wrote, had he added in the first three completions, the resultant stats for Orton would have been higher. (My grade would stay the same, because I’m basing my grade on what I saw, not Styg’s fine work. Styg watches the game like a scientists, with measurables and numbers. I watch like an artist, knowing what I see when I see it. I think the conclusions might be nearly the same though).
Rec’d. Very rec’d!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 16, 2009 3:01 PM MDT reply actions 4 recs
Thanks, very thanked!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Kind of like the superbowl
always worth a second go round… :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks, Styg...
You’ve forgotten more about football than I’ll ever know.
I used to teach and when I graded a student, the grade didn’t reflect the potential the student might reach, but only how well he had mastered the presented material. (I also graded myself based on my student’s grades vs. what I believed their potential to be, and maybe one day you might focus you analysis on McD to see if he is doing well regarding how well he is developing the players he has).
You’ve not only broken down the test material, you’ve provided a map for where Orton needs to go to get better. So, given his history from Purdue through the Bears, how good do you think he can be?
Wherever you go, there you are.
I never had the privelege of watching Orton
with the Boilermakers, but I have scouted numerous players from that system, and that ‘type’ of QB has a tremendous amount of built in upside. There can be no substitute for smarts, and McD will be able to get things out of Orton that he might not have ever been able to get out of a player like Cutler… On the other hand, there are some things that ORton will likely never be able to do physically.
Your question is an interesting one: given his history I think that Orton is most likely to struggle with consistency and eventually need replacing, with a slim chance of being a great starter….. because that is how he has trended for the last 5 or so years. But given his present, that is, given that he is finally in a system that will absorb his strengths and deflect his weaknesses, and given that this team seems to be geared towards a successful inner-structure now, a structure that lends support to its members even as it asks them to carry their own weight, I think the sky is the limit….
I think the biggest question I have about Orton, is just how much of the leadership he will actively pursue. As Chopperpilot’s post earlier indicated, Kyle is doing all the right things to take on the burdens of leadership, but what remains to be seen is how he delegates those burdens and responsiilities back out to those who can handle them best. This is the difference between leaders and martyrs, between DJ’s and Al Wilson’s. Will he be willing to get after someone if that is what is best for them? Or will he stoically take on more pf the burden and pressure on himself? I don’t think he is the kind of player that will explode with growth and productivity under extreme pressure (though i do think he can perform under pressure). Those types of players are Elway-rare.
But if he is smart enough to know and acknowledge his limits and the best role he can occupy, he has a chance to be one of the most successful, and quite possibly one of the best Bronco’s QBs.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
just as a sideline gig
I was onboard with New Era Scouting last year to do the WAC conference, but I had to change too many things, and I couldn’t focus on the Broncos as much, so I opted out.
No, you’ll just have to classify this evaluation under “Bronco Homer.” Sorry. :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Its the intangibles
that make the good ones great. I think that mechanics begets accuracy, and accuracy is a fundamental trait of a great QB. The physically gifted can skip the mechanics step and jump right to accuracy but most of us mortals have to get the mechanics worked out until they are second nature. ‘Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong’. There is a scene in a movie called “30 Days” (Sandra Bullock Goes to Rehab) and in it, Viggo Mortensen teaches her how to throw a strike while blindfolded. It’s in the mechanics. Control what you can control (the mechanics) and the rest takes care of itself. I think that if McD will drill those mechanics until the are indeed second nature, and in the meantime, he will develop Brandstater.
Your point about leadership is well made. But, Orton has a great example in Dawkins. I don’t know enough about Orton to know if he confronts his teammates, but Dawkins sure does. And, Dawk does it right. And yes, I think Dawkins is Elway rare.
An interesting conclusion, that Orton should be the best Orton that he can be. Time will tell if that is enough.
Wherever you go, there you are.
by YosemiteSam on Aug 16, 2009 6:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed about Dawk.
It still seems like a dream that he is a Bronco…. It doesn’t help that he hasn’t played yet… makes it seem surreal.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow.
Rec’d.
"Really, I'm a high-motor guy. Tough, hard-nosed, a hard runner, can make you miss at times. And just competitive. I love to play the game and I bring that energy to my team. So, we'll see how that goes." - Knowshon Moreno
Knowshon Moreno=ROY
Nice piece of work
one question though – where in your analysis do you factor in pass selection, throwing the right type of pass? On the 3rd int Orton it wasn’t so much that Orton under-threw the receiver as much as he threw the wrong pass. On a sideline pass, when the receiver breaks past the coverage it’s critical to throw a rainbow, a high arcing pass that the defenders cannot get to. That’s why all the crap about arm strength is just horse manure from ignorant reporters. Deep passes aren’t about great arm strength. They are about timing and placement.
Likewise on the first int, wrong pass. KO throws a touch pass leading the TE when he should be throwing a dart at the back shoulder.
These might very well be the result of over-thinking, but to me they looked more like impatience on KO’s part. Like a SS in baseball, he needs to learn to take a breath and collect himself before throwing. Let the game slow down and come to him.
Finally, I believe you are correct about the final int. Mis-communication between the two. Without knowing the play it’s hard to be certain, but it looked like a read-option play. Stokes read it one way and KO the other. That is something that can be worked on in practice.
This is covered under "delivery"
with the idea being that each pass has an ideal delivery method. I classify actual arm mechanics of the delivery under “release”. This is my own criteria, and could quite likely be different, or even opposite of someone else’s. I’m careful about directly assigning blame on delivery, however for two reasons:
A) I don’t know enough about the idealness of certain routes, especially some of the odds and ends that get run in the short range, middle fo the field zones.
B) Sometimes different deliveries work pretty well…
On the deep INT, delivery graded out as a 2, but the throw was so mechanically horrible that it is hard to say what kind of pass he was even attempting. On the endzone INT, the delivery actually rated at a 3, but it also scored low in accuracy, release, ball handling, rush avoidance, etc. That play looked like Orton was about 1 second out of sync with the rest of the offense….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Ok - that makes sense
so it sounds like on the first int you down-graded it on accuracy where I might consider it more a delivery issue. My interpretation being that he threw where he wanted to, but that’s not where/how he should have thrown it. I would rate delivery @ a 1, but possibly rate accuracy a tad better.
I was taught, in WCO’s the rule is to lead the receiver to open field. In a spread however, the rule tends to be – lead the receiver away from the coverage. It’s a subtle difference and hard to know which one McD is actually stressing, though I tend to think it’s the latter.
Again, that’s quite a piece of work breaking down all the plays like that.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Aug 16, 2009 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions
That's an interesting and subtle distinction
I’ll have to work to get my head around it. I see your point about Orton not throwing a rainbow on the deep ball, but I considered it an inaccurate throw because I felt he meant to drop it in over the top and didn’t put enough loft on it. It wasn’t so much that he didn’t throw a rainbow as that the didn’t throw quite enough of one. The idea, as I understand it, is to put the right amount of loft on the ball. Too much and the deep defender has time to come back to the ball. Too little and the underneath defender can make a play. Hence for me it’s an accuracy issue.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Great post Styg.
It is only one game and my only concern was with the first INT. Orton just looked nervous in the pocket on the goal line. We set up one of the most basic goal line plays in the mordern game and he botched it.
It appeared to be a designed play to the fullbakc in the flat straight from Bill Walshs play book and every team runs a variation of it. FB slips the block, up back takes the rusher, dump pass, TD or at worst batted ball, play over. When I watched it again Orton eyes Hillis, sees the rush then hurries to his second read before leting the blockers do their job. He then throws into the back of the end zone which is where bad things happen. Not a very high percentage pass.
Now it was the first drive of the preseason and it is not something to get too worked up about, but Orton is a veteren and should no better.
I have a theory
and no real way to prove it… I was thinking that when Orton turned around to fake the handoff, that the RB was out of position. Its hard to tell on the film, but I think that might be there. Orton just looks out of sync… he is still poised and doesn’t breakdown in the pocket, but when he finally decided to throw, he once again didn’t set up, as if the decision, and then the physical response were not meshing up…
Could he be thrown off by a simple mistake by the tailback? Its possible. Given how the play developed, I think an excellent result would have been if he had just lobbed the ball up through the goalposts…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Decision and response meshing up
In your analysis I get the impression that in a number of instances Orton saw a receiver come open and immediately tried to get the ball to him before he was set to throw, with his mechanics suffering as a result. Too slow to set up, too impatient, too anxious that his window is about to close — what do you think? Is it possible that as the offense becomes more finely tuned the the receivers will more often get open when he’s ready for them rather than too early or too late? That is, is part of the problem not only that he’s not relaxed enough to wait until he’s ready and then throw the ball with proper velocity and touch, but also that he’s not yet in sync with his receivers? Fantastic analysis. Can’t wait until I can start reviewing the games on slo-mo on DVR, so I can get a better look at what you and the other experts are seeing. I saw this game at a sports bar with excrutiatingly loud music (are young people hard of hearing, or what?) and various other distractions.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Anxious that his window was about to close
that’s a great way to put it. I think he is still learning to play within himself and trust the system.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Aug 16, 2009 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions
And with those big ears? You must really be hurting...
I think that is exactly what is going on. The different pieces of the offense are running on different internal clocks. Orton has to feel like he cna control that with his dropback, which is being executed very well, but we, as viewers, have no way of knowing if he shoudl be a split second faster or not.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 9:13 PM MDT up reply actions
See?!
This is the stuff I could never hope to publish myself. Thanks for the seminar in QB scouting. I appreciate that you don’t let perception influence your judgment at all and I think we can all learn from that approach. Excellent work, as always, sir.
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
always appreciated EJ
good to see you made it back for the season!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Thank You!
Outstanding eduction.
A couple of questions. In preseason process is more important than outcome. In the regular season outcome is more important than process?
As an uneducated observer, I noted Orton being static in the pocket and seemed to be throwing to pre-selected receivers instead of checking down. I attributed that to (1) that was the play that was called, and (2) still learning the system so that he didn’t have to think but just do.
How did Simms do using your rating system? I liked what I saw but thought he had a slow release.
well
since wins are what get you to the postseason, yeah, outcome matters more than process during the regular season. there will still be that undercurrent of making sure that you still have a strong foundation, and any time the wins aren’t coming, you really have to go back and focus on The Path again to find your way. But if you sepnd the offseason and preseason creating the Path, then you can spend your regular season at Destination: Win.
I think Orton was going through progressions, just remember that part of the spread’s success comes from the way receiver’s routes are setup and executed, and often that means a lot of receivers in one area. Even with HD it can be hard to tell sometimes if his head is moving, but outside of presnap reads and some specialty plays, i would assume that he is going through progressions unless we got excellent data that said that he wasn’t. he was visibly checking off routes a number of times, so I don’t doubt that he can do it, and many of his choices were good choices, including two of the INTs, he just didn’t execute the choice very well. He seems to have a grasp of which guy is the right guy to throw to (in some spread offenses, this is something the QB knows before the ball is snapped usually, based on defensive alignment.) but he doesn’t seem to be pulling the trigger on that decision in rhythm.
I agree completely with SWG above when he says that Orton needs to take a second and breath int he poicket, let things develop for one more half second or so. The oline is good for it. :)
Oh and I didn’t rate simms, but you’re observation mirrors my own. His windup is incredibly long, but that is a fit for our current offensive line’s skillset… hope the DBs don’t capitalize on it too much.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Thank you!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions
you will
you will….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions
And hopefully
we see more 90%+
"Really, I'm a high-motor guy. Tough, hard-nosed, a hard runner, can make you miss at times. And just competitive. I love to play the game and I bring that energy to my team. So, we'll see how that goes." - Knowshon Moreno
Knowshon Moreno=ROY
wow
Amazing analysis. Lots to think about. I keep telling my friends to read this site. Why won’t they listen? LOL
remember the subtle hints to get what you wanted for Christmas?
The appropriately placed brochure, the timely reference to some latest video game?
Yeah, you know what I’m getting at…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Play action and formations
Fantastic analysis as always, Styg! Thanks.
You make a great point about the play action – it was largely ineffectual with Orton in there and a contributor to the first pick. I wasn’t even fooled, and I was just 50 yards away! If the play action actually works there, Graham (or Hillis!) is potentially even more open in the end zone and it’s a much easier score.
I expect more rushing in the regular season than we saw with Orton this weekend. McDaniels clearly wanted to try some things in the passing game. Do you think as the run game picks up steam, the play action will come around too? It is a lot easier faking a play that you have been running successfully all afternoon than one you haven’t, right?
One thing I really noticed at the game was the number of interesting formations. I called one “trips” in my writeup, but am not sure that is technically accurate. There was definitely one with a set back receiver to the strong side (or something like that). The 4 wide set the offense opened with was nice, too. From doing all this research did you get a sense of which formations were most successful for Orton and the passing game?
Enjoyed and rec’ed!
Play Action
I think play action is a lot easier to execute from a lay-z-boy than from behind center. The quarterback who can watch three receivers run their routes and analyze coverage on all three and at the same time keep his head down and look at the RB in order to "sell’ the fake is, as styg calls it, “Elway rare”. AS I recall this was one of Orton’s strengths coming from the Bears. Let’s see how he improves. Excellent comment jonah. Excellent post styg! Thank you both and to all commenters on this important subject.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on Aug 16, 2009 5:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps another sign of
Orton still “thinking” too much out there in the new system. If you are already a little nervous back there, looking away from the play can’t help. It’s great to hear that his ability to do it was strength in Chicago though – and I hope with comfort in the system he can improve those finer touches as well. Play action certainly isn’t as easy as it looks when run to perfection.
I didn’t notice Simms on any play action, although they must have run it. firstfan, styg, anyone did you notice?
Thanks for the reply and shout out, ff. Good stuff all around!
I didn't note any real correlation
between formation or personnel groupings and Orton’s success, except to note that he and Stokely weren’t on the same page. He did run a LOT of different formations though. I haven’t really looked at a lot of professional systems, but a different formation on every single passing play, for 17 straight plays, for half of a preseason game seems pretty hefty.
He did throw the medium outs very well, perfectly in fact, adn his short touch throws were very nice as well. There was trips right, trips left, 4 wide, 5 wide, 2TE offset Is that shifted to essentially a 3TE package…. He spent the last couple of drives throwing completely out of shotgun, about half the time with a RB back with him. He did seem to do a bit better when he was alone in the shotgun, maybe having something to do with less action around him, or more likely, more receivers into their routes earlier. It is an excellent question, but my guess is we won’t be able to answer it accurately until the regular season…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 7:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Most excellent!
I’ll be watching the game again with your post open… maybe i’ll learn something
thanks
Another Perspective
Here’s what I read, even with the 3 interceptions, Orton has all the tools. Well, how exactly is that a comfort? Isn’t this the same guy who threw two interceptions at Mile High (in a practice, for Pete’s sake)…less than two weeks ago? Progress isn’t defined by throwing more interceptions than the last time, is it? Give him a break, you say? OK, I’ll give him that. He didn’t come here by his own choice, and he’s still learning a new system. Plus, I think that he might have some pro ‘rasslin’ lineage, or maybe not. Still, another question must be asked…just how many games do you think we’ll win, throwing three interceptions in the first half, alone?
I think you need to read my post
it may help give you some insight on what happened exactly on Friday night. Here
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/8/16/991263/testing-the-waters-what-happened
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
OK fine...
…it’s too early to lop anyone’s head off. Be patient. I get that, but does everyone understand that, historically, this organization has had little patience with any quarterbacks since Elway, including Cutler? Chris, you better be ready, son. And, Ryan C, you might want to switch with Ryan H.
ummm...like...different organization now?
Jedi and Dr X are here now…and totally different way of doing things. Gotta remember that…like…its starting over time for everyone…and Jedi has a plan…and he still thinks Kyle is his guy…and this is gonna be his offense. Like…who knows how any QB coulda done this weekend. Guess this is why He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named ran away…so he could be totally a mega rock star against buffalo.
MHR...and proud of it!
That's my girl.
You’re exactly right MHRsGirl. This town has a low tolerance for poor play at the QB position, but making assumptions and judgements on ONE preseason game is garbage, by all accounts. Not one team in this league should judge their quarterbacks this quickly. Could I suggest one thing 9798? Maybe the Elway shadow still lingers because fans won’t get over it. It’s been 10 years. It’s great to reflect from time to time, but to lurk on the past years success is pathetic and very Raider-esque to me. I won’t do it and if 10 years isn’t long enough for the average fan to move on, then maybe they should keep watching their America’s Game DVD’s and hope to god Schlereth gives it another go. Until then, move past it and accept that things need time to change.
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
So...
…are you telling me that, historically, this organization has had patience with quarterbacks since Elway, including Cutler? Yes? Then how exactly was that patience exercised with Griese, Plummer, and Cutler? No? Well, that was my point in ‘OK fine…’ (if anyone were to take the trouble to go back and see.)
I would say
Historically the organization had a ton of patience with Johnson, Morton, Elway…. The last HC had very little patience with a lot of stuff. But since 2000 that lead to an aggregate 9-7 season resulting in his dismissal. None of us know how the current organization will be.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Aug 16, 2009 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Shanny's patience
I think it disappeared for good about the time that Griese was tripping over a dog. On the flip side of that though, there seemed ot be no shortage of instances wehre he was too patient, especially when ‘developing’ some borderline, oft-injured player. On the other hand other hand though, I remember a lot of safeties getting the ol harikari treatment…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Good to see you around MHRs Girl
your ex doesn’t seem to be doing so well since you split up ;-)
by SlowWhiteGuy on Aug 16, 2009 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions
"Orton has all the tools" -- how is that a comfort?
Because he’s still learning the complex system. If a guy is missing the tools and is learning a new system, then there is a very low ceiling on him even once he does. If a guy has them, however, then his ceiling is much higher.
As for why Orton threw more interceptions now vs. the Invesco scrimmage, we must factor elevated nerves in. It is also entirely possible that he was rattled by the previous two interceptions (since we’re talking about more/less, only the third one matters) and made a highly inadvisable throw. In other words, he had a moment of humanity. If this is the case, that is hardly cause for panic— especially for a fan of the team in question.
My bottom line is, I would much rather him work out the kinks now in preseason than during the regular season. I assure you, if Orton continues to throw three interceptions a game then I (and probably most of MHR) will write him off as a failure. Not the least because we won’t win many games that way, as you point out.
"3rd and 6, Elway shotgun... Elway, scrambling, looking, running-- DIVING!!!-- inside the 5 yard line for a first down! Is he only 37?! How important is this football game? How bad does John Elway want to win this football game? Where you see the quarterbacks go down: Not Elway!"
by Sharpe as a Tack on Aug 16, 2009 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Granted...
…he’s still learning the system, and I gave him that already. OK, maybe it was simply a case of Orton having the jitters. His TD to INT ratio was, after all, fairly stellar in Chicago.
I really believe
that the outcome of those plays on friday don’t mean anything,a nd they make a poor substitute for the elation we feel when we watch teh Broncos win, or the depression we feel when they lose. INTs, yards, TDs W-L record in preseason are all part of the outcome, not the process, and right now, the Broncos need to focus on getting the process right. Orton needs to keep working to make this new system come to him like second nature. There are too many things he must do to think he could master it in such a short time. Remember, they only started installing actual plays on the first day of training camp. These aren’t plays he has run a hundred times. he’s probably lucky to have run them more than a handful of times. This is all just glorified practice.
I put the overunder at about 8 games into the regular seson before Orton truly has this offense down. In the meantime this team will have to work hard to help him and support him. Their reward? What Orton should be able to do with this offense for those last 8 games of the year should be playoff caliber consistency and scoring, if he can keep growing. His ability to master this offense could be the single msot important ingredient for pushing Denver into the playoffs with a chance to make some noise.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:13 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is a great read its like you you are already in midseason form
I think the practice aspects of this game has been totally lost . I would think with our schedule and that Bears game coming up and then the 4th game being on a Thursday giving us 10 days between the last preseason game and the opener that McDaniels would want to get as many of his base passing plays onto tape as possible .For a QB the ability to study film and make adjustments is important and that game was basically the first chance for the coaches and players to get live film to study . I would think McDaniels would want even more PASSING plays on film to study especially the base formations as you can run plenty of options off of one play .but Orton needs to see the defensive looks .
There is so much that we can analyze that I cant even imagine the amount of information the Qbs and Mcdaniels are processing.
by Hoopforia on Aug 16, 2009 10:38 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well stated.
+1
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
"Right now, The Process is More Important Than the Outcome."
You want to see all of your QB’s weaknesses in practice and preseason so that you know what to work on before the regular season, and so you know what not to try in the regular season.
This post wasn’t about predicting win loss, as much as it was about walking away from Friday’s game with more info on our player’s performance than just the TD vs INT’s stats.
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
by jibbons on Aug 16, 2009 7:48 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
well said
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Good God J. You and your statistical analysis!
I am glad I have a strong understanding of mathematics, because this post is nothing short of stellar. Then again, most of your work is first rate. I hope you bust one of these types of posts out after every game. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
I'll try
best laid plans and all that…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Great read.
My eyes told me Kyle looked real good on the first drive, but looked real bad after the 1st pick. Lets see how he plays next week. I expect we’ll see Kyle try some more deep throws and more passes to the left side of the field.
How do you think Simms played?
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
I didn't take the time to rate him, and I don't know
about the claims that he ran a “vanilla” offense. They certainly ran the ball more, which had to help as far as the outcome goes, but again we return to the process.
Outside of noting his loooong release, and appreciating the finer points of his scramble play that led to a TD, I just noted that he seemed comfortable, was taking his time, and threw a catchable ball. Unless we run smack dab into a true QB controversey, I will probably not prioritize my Simms viewing, and I suspect that is for the best, since he is growing on me. :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:18 PM MDT up reply actions
This is an excellent article, but i have come to expect nothing less from you guys. Great, great, great work.
Go Broncos!
appreciated.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions
styg I felt a feeling of composure confidence if there is such a feeling with Kyle.
He struggled a bit after the first pick and he will have all week to work on things you brought forth, he needs to make better decisions this week as far using the pocket as a strength instead of a weakness. Great post and rec’d of course.
I'll say this again
he never lost his cool in the pocket, never got frustrated with anyone but himself and reamined in control right up until the end of the half. I think he understood very well waht he was being asked to do, and tried his best to get into the flow of the game. Next week, I expect him to be more of a cohesive whole with his linemen….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:21 PM MDT up reply actions
What a great analysis, styg..
Your work is always superb, but this one takes out all of the foolish emotion and replaces it with a cool and scientific detachment.
Thank you, sir, for a superlative effort! Much rec’d!
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
I did feel detached
he kind of looked like plummer at the beginning, and I felt sort of attached, but he throws NOTHING like Plummer, so before long he was just another player under the microscope….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Off subject, but the 49er RB that tore his ACL on Friday was just cut. The NFL can be ruthless. Bummer for Thomas Clayton, hope he gets another shot next year.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
No doubt.
That’s a big bummer for the guy. Best of luck to him.
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
That's a shame
but you are right when you say the NFL is ruthless. I gave him a standing ovation when they drove him off the field. I am first and foremost a human being and I don’t want to see anyone hurt ever. It’s a small comfort, but the NFL doesn’t allow a team just to cut an injured player. They’ll be making a financial settlement.
It’s things like this that make players so wary about contracts without guarantees. They know this could happen to them on any given Sunday.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Styg
I am late to the party, but this is awesome stuff!!!!!
Thanks, man!!
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
double or nothing!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions
THANKS
hopefully this post will help ease those fairweather fans minds on the overall performance of kyle. I think he will do fine once he wins a few and eases some of the pressure off his shoulders
not sure that we can
or even should worry too much about any fairweathers in the crowd. Something tells me that the coming years will start creating the kind of soil from which good quality fandom can grow, on a regular basis. Things have been kind of poisonous lately, and that should be changing.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 9:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow Styg
After the consistent quality you continually post,I really shouldn’t be surprised at the level of detail and analysis, but somehow I am. Thank you so much for your insight and the time you devoted to this!
Joe Sakic was pure class, win or lose, at all times.
by Colorado_Kitten on Aug 16, 2009 8:55 PM MDT reply actions
you betcha Kitten!
The appreciation shown by the members makes it all worth it.
And the reciprocation this site is capable of these days…woohoo. This place is amazing. just glad I’m here and a part of it.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 9:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Carefull styg
you’re starting to sound like She Who Was Once Governor..
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
This was an outstanding read, Styg, thank you!
Question: Have you ever done a similar write up on Tom Brady or maybe Cassel of last year? It would of been interesting to see if there are close similarities between early Cassel of last year and Orton currently.
by Gristle McThornbody on Aug 16, 2009 9:07 PM MDT reply actions
That would be fascinating stuff
and I have NFL Rewind, so I might just give it a shot.
My kingdom for the ability to stop time.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 16, 2009 9:16 PM MDT up reply actions
MSM should refund their paychecks
This was one of the most analytical writings I have ever seen and is on par with coaching books.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Aug 16, 2009 10:12 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Great Analysis/Comment...
1st, I really appreciated your analysis and philosophical look at preseason. Thank you.
2nd, as someone who feels they understand the QB position pretty well and who was at Friday’s game (not that it really helps w/o many replays), I really felt Orton was throwing to spots, not to players. At least on the INTs, he was throwing to where the WRs were supposed to be rather than adjusting to the reality on the field.
Maybe I was overly optimistic about Orton, but this trait (throwing to spots) and his overall performance was a letdown for me.
…anyway, just my two cents.
Thanks again for the analysis; I look forward to more.
there was definitely a number of timing routes in the mix
which would explain the feeling that he was throwingto spots…in several cases he was. Also his presnap checkdown, a staple of this offense, is essentially a timing route, he just sets up and throws as quckly as he can, and hopefully t he receive is on the same page
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 17, 2009 3:25 AM MDT up reply actions
A very thorough analysis styg
Thanks.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
Wow, that was deep.
I wonder if there should be some type of “difficulty rating” we apply, both to the complexity of the plays called, and the strength of the defense he’s facing.
I wonder how soon we can begin to see an improvement? If he can consistently improve, then it should be all good.
Thanks for that; amazing.
"Remember, it's only a game."
Excellent post, Styg. Rec'd
I wasn’t able to watch but followed the game by NFL.com and MHR. Your analysis and everyone’s comments help me get a pretty good picture of how Orton performed – and a little of Simms as well.
Thanks to all.
Good Technical Review
Nice non-emotional analysis. Hard to argue with the analysis. However, I would say that technique is only one facet of a successful quarterback, In fact there are probably more technically competent quarterbacks than successful quarterbacks. To do a complete analysis of Kyle Orton, one would have to get inside his head. Does he have a killer instinct, like Tom Brady, the Mannings, Elway, etc.? Or is he a Jake Plummer, whose mind seemed to wander from game-to-game. Cutler, while having a load of talent, is still a question mark on his ability to be a winner. Maybe it will come, maybe it won’t. I think Orton is a good average quarterback, that will have an average career, but without the possibility of winning the big one. Orton has been in the league long enough to show us his killer instinct, I just don’t see it.
Great analysis to start from!
It certainly backs up my layman’s analysis that Orton just needs to realize he has ALOT more time in the pocket now. He just needs to relax….and maybe buy the OL a nice steak dinner!
A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Orton vs Cutler
I watched both games and neither QB looked very good. Watching Cutler reminded me of watching Cutler last year. In my humble opinion neither of them is a great QB. Jay has a rocket arm, good mobility but that doesn’t necessarily equal championship football. Once again I think Denver is in a better position – they unloaded an unproven QB with a bad attitude and came out ahead. Since everyone wanted to label Cutler as a Franchise QB it allowed Denver to get max return on the trade. It is interesting to watch and the comparisons will be made all season. I wonder where Chris Simms might fit – he played pretty well.
Orton grading
First things first, thank you for an excellent analysis on QB Orton. There were mistakes made by everyone but your expertise and grading system explains why coach McD isn’t too upset with Orton, but Orton will need to show he can correct his mistakes with more practice before the Seattle game. Having been to and watched many training camp sessions and preseason games I am excited by the way our training camp is conducted, not since Collier days have I seen so much learning going on. I believe and you will grade Orton next week so we can compare and see how your systems grades out.
oc60
Wow!
Thank you so much for your hard work! Excellent analysis and insight. Huge Rec!
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.

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