Defensive 'Inbetweenness'
by dr.mort on Aug 17, 2009 1:32 PM MDT
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Greetings friends. Six months ago when DC Nolan was new news, there was much ado about a transition from 4-3 to 3-4. While no one argued that the personnel was not in place for such a switch, the news was received with much excitement to the knowledgeable Bronconationites, as this has proved a successful model for the Patriots, Steelers, and arguably the Ravens (who use a hybrid model that is difficult for offenses to react to NYTimes Sports).
But what about this transition? Nolan and McD thought it would be gradually added to the system as players adjusted and as the roster took shape of the adequate sized dudes for the job. Watching the '1st string' defense during Friday's game, we saw mostly 3-4/5-2ish line ups during the first half. It didn't seem like there was switching going back and forth.
Was this just like the throwing into the fire of the offense (KO's 17 different formations on passes)? Possibly, as Coach McD's tendency is to get players in the heat for analyzing their abilities more so than for results as Styg recently taught us. Or maybe the defense has just backed off of the notion of keeping both systems on the broiler because it might just be too much to handle. And not backing off the notion like the White House is backing off the 'public option' for health care, but for a more logical reason.
Think about this: last year's opening day roster had 8 LB's (if we include the heaven sent versatility of our ballistic Mormon, Spencer Larsen) and 10 DL. Last year's roster relied heavily on rotating the big guys up front as we had no real proven stars and were hoping to develop young guys and make due with some serviceable vets. That was 18 roster spots for the front 7, and nearly all these guys were activated on game days (except Moss). Now, clearly we had massive injuries to the LB corps, but this was the needed roster spots for a 4-3 with some LBs who were STers week in and week out.
In the case where a 3-4 is in play, the team will likely need more than 8 opening day line backers, and will probably not keep 10 down linemen. Perhaps the talk of using both systems in the off season is easily accepted by the media and the fans, but the logistics of such a suggestion may be cuffed by roster dealings.
I'm a dentist by trade (we'll still have to call 911 if someone collapses when I'm in the room), but there was a time when I thought about applying to both medical and dental school. This would mean taking two difficult entry exams, preparing for interviews at double the number of schools and spending way more money. I realized that I'd still have to make a decision about what I wanted to do down the road, so I did my homework, chose dentistry and didn't look back. Had I been between the two scenarios, I would have stretched myself too thin and compromised the dental preparation I made in result.
The point is, I don't think it bodes well for being in between systems. The coaches will go one way or the other. No sense in making the defense more complicated than it needs to be. I think Nolan will use the 3-4 in 1st and 2nd down, and now the roster looks like it will serve itself better for 3-3-5 in the nickel.
I'm no expert like the talented MHR professors, but with the addition of Le Kevin Smith today (NFL caliber 5 technique DE depth), it seems as though this is the thought process. On to wins and progress. Defense might have some growing pains, especially with the converted ends trying their hand at pass coverage, but signs point to future success.
2008 Opening Day LB DT DE
Larsen Robertson Engleberger
Winborn Thomas Dumerville
Green Clemons Crowder
Koutouvides Peterson (tweener) Moss
Williams Josh Shaw (member him?) Ekuban
Webster
Woodyard
Bailey
2009 Projected OLB ILB DT DE
Dumerville Davis Fields McBean
Haggan Willams Baker Peterson
Ayers Woodyard Powell(?) Smith (new guy)
Reid Larsen Thomas
Crowder Clemons
My guess is Pedescleaux and L. Robinson make it to the PS, and we wish Rulon Davis the best in the near future.
Keep on keepin' on. Peace.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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If you're such a good dentist,
Can you pull out your own teeth? I bet you can’t.
Average Raider Fan's IQ = 89
Bill Williamson's IQ = 75
Find yours by clicking here.
love the Hangover reference....
time to go back and see that one again….. lol
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
by Broncs Cheer on Aug 17, 2009 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions
dr.mort
dr death, dr zort in his nose, dr kill his patient…..
NOT COOL ON THIS SITE TO USE DEROGATORY NAMES LIKE MCDIDDY!!!
he wasn't dissing mcD
I’ll say this, if we can switch to a 3-4 without the hybridstuff in between we absolutely will. It is McDaniel’s preferred defense.
No better tiem thena the preseason to psh these guys to try and make it all the way to 3-4 if they can. Whatever “hybridness” is left come september will be limited to somatotypes not congruent with ideal 3-4 lineups, methinks….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 17, 2009 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions
A 49er friend of mine told me of the biggest gripe their D had last year about Nolan's D.
They switched back and forth from 3-4 to 4-3. They players didn’t remember their assignments. Makes for shoddy defensive coverage. I’ll bet that Nolan remembers that all to clearly.
What looks like a 3-4 and a 5-2 can easily go to a 4-3 with one of the OLBs putting their hand down. This formation makes variations simple. The important thing is that the players understand their assignments and play together as a team.
Great job Doc. We definitely need work in the middle,
Hill had a few tackles Friday night and that usually means it got by the ILB (DJ and Woodyard) They’ll work on it this week and I’ll watching the run stop in the middle. The 3-4 has made a vast improvement over Shanahan’s 4-3 of last few years though and I think they will continue to get better.
Roster structure
Just for grins I looked at the 49’ers 2008 opening day roster under Nolan. On defense, they kept 8 LBs, 2 NT, 4 DE, 8(!) CB and 4 S. The 2008 New England Patriots kept 9 LB, 6 DL, 5 CB and 4 S on the defense. Although we might keep more, only 14 or 15 “front 7” players on the final roster looks likely.
Do you think Moss is gone?
Or was that an omission? The way things stand today, I’d say he’s more likely to stick than Crowder at OLB…
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
Agree
I’d say Powell over Clemons though.
"Sanity is the realization that everyone is insane to some degree." Me
Nolan also said..
It is easier for 3-4 team to go to a 4-3 in situations than the other way around. That tells me they staff for a 3-4 and have some people like Ayers who can be a linebacker and then move to an end position on certain downs. It does place a premium on the versatility of some players and it means that some of your LBs have to function as DEs in certain situations. So you end up keeping the same total number of people but more of them have LB duties as their primary assignment.
Interesting points
I spent a little time recently watching some of the Steelers games. They have what is arguably the best 3-4 currently playing, and I’d put a lot of the credit for that to Dick LeBeau, who is a defensive genius. I notice that while they are a 3-4 zone blitz team, they ran a lot of different fronts, including some 5-2 and a 4-3. There is an old principle – it’s not what you do, it’s how you do it. Nolan had a lot of problems on that team, including inheriting a nasty set of locker room problems, a situation that Mike Singletary seems to be solving (more power to him). Sometime you just don’t inherit the right players. Perhaps that’s part of why Nolan didn’t succeed in SF.
I also watched the Super Bowl. Both the Steelers and the Cardinals made last year’s SB and both used multiple fronts. One of the directions that the game is going is an increased emphasis on players needing to be able to absorb large amounts of material and put it into action quickly. That’s not going to stop. Some teams will go to an ‘easier’ approach, but most will be tending to move in the direction that McDaniels has the Broncos going in terms of adapting their schemes and personnel to give them the best advantage each week. That is going to require intellect and versatility. Not every player is going to be able to keep up.
One advantage that we have this season, odd as it sounds, is that the team was essentially torn apart on defense. Since the old players weren’t, often, of the highest caliber and didn’t necessarily fit what we are now trying to do, the fact that Xanders/Nolan/McDaniels had a chance to go out and find a lot of players, in FA and the draft, who are smart, versatile and talented and that will, over time, work in our favor. Look at the kinds of leaders we have, and at how many finished degrees, finished early, and were excellent students as well as athletes. Even our newest DE, Smith, is an artist and photographer who was a leader on the Nebraska defense and finished his degree in Construction Management. He also made the Honor Roll at Nebraska. Just our kind of guy.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Wait
are you saying there might be a Theme here? That’s astounding! =)
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
solving locker room problems
Nolan had a lot of problems on that team, including inheriting a nasty set of locker room problems, a situation that Mike Singletary seems to be solving (more power to him)…
I wonder if Nolan’s ever thought, “You mean all I had to do was pull down my pants…”
But who will guard the guards themselves?
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Aug 18, 2009 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Conventional wisdom in sports, at least in my experience, is to
use the Keep It Simple Stupid method. But the pro game seems to be evolving toward more complexity. The 3-4 didn’t look too good against Timmy Smith, and I can remember being a fan in the 90s wanting the Broncos to switch to the apparently superior 4-3. I think that a lot of fans felt that way at the time as well. But when the rest of he NFL seemed to be sold on the 4-3, it appears that people like BB and Nolan recognized the 3-4’s advantages. Namely, the ability of the complex scheme to challenge the pass protection of the offense. But to make it work, it took different personnel than had traditionally been used. In other words, the problem wasn’t the scheme, it was that teams like Denver needed different and better personnel to make it work. Proof to me of this philosophy is the NE defensive line. In those early drafts, BB sought and acquired ideal DL for his scheme (Warren, Seymour, Wilfolk). Mayo is another example. McD said this week that they waited years to draft a player like Mayo. So, getting back to the point of the original article, we are pursuing a counterintuitive course of action by making our defense as complex as possible. However, the point that Broncobear makes is critical. Without smart athletes this approach will fail. That may have been the problem in SF, I do not know. As a fan, I think it should remind us that we need to be patient. It will take years to obtain the ideal talent that we need to fully run the complex defenses that the Steelers, Baltimore, and NE run. These teams simply have a big head start on us. However, I am quite pleased with where we stand now considering that the cupboard looked pretty empty in February. With the Cutler trade, and smart drafting, and clever free agent signings, it looks to me like we will be able to catch up sooner than I expected.
IMO, the McD offense seeks success by also being as complex as possible. Defenses collapse against it because their heads explode. When that happens guys are open. The new reality in the NFL seems to be that the “simple” approach guys just can’t keep up.
I am very optimistic about our future, because I think that McD and Nolan have been exposed to these systems, done a lot of reflection, and have a very good idea of what personnel it takes to make them work.
by Orange Crush II on Aug 18, 2009 2:19 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
nicely done
Marcus Thomas will fight his way into the lineup me thinks.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
Me thiks so too
At least if they let him settle at DE, and take off a bit of the blubber weight he put on for the NT position.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
4th Quarter, 3:24 mark
Niners had 3rd and one at their 14. Powell had been playing NT. Baker came in and joined Powell. Broncos lined up with 8 up front (left to right, it was Crowder, Askew, Baker, Powell, Pedescleaus, Davis, and Moss). So that was interesting.
BTW, this was the play where Spencer Larsen blew through the left side of the LOS and train wrecked the Niner RB.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
46 defense variant?
I didn’t get to record the game this time – were the CBs in man?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
Oh, my.
That’s way beyond my depth. I have no idea where the CB’s were, nor do I have any idea what a 46 variant is. I can relate that Larsen was creeping towards the LOS just before the snap, and there was a big hole on the left side (from the defensive point of view) that Larsen just blew through. That is, it looked like the Niner O opened the hole, but after watching it a few times, it’s almost like a designed play for the Bronco D to let Larsen through. Couldn’t be though. Fun to watch, especially in slo mo. Sure wold be fun to ask Nolan about it.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
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