Horse Tracks 8/23/09 - Broncos lose to Seahawks 27-13; Orton performs well

Sorry for the late Tracks, folks; been fighting with my wife's laptop this AM (mine's in for repairs). To sum it up, Kyle Orton looked very good last night. Had Jabar Gaffney squeezed a 2nd-down pass in the back of the end zone, Orton's night would have been spectacular. Although he threw a Plummer-ish INT afterward, it was on fourth down with nothing to lose. Try not to make anything of it. Special teams were pretty rotten, as they allowed a partial punt block and Kenny McKinley fumbled a punt return. That, plus a deep fumble by Tony Scheffler and the Broncos gift-wrapped 13 points to the Seahawks. Both teams came out chucking, and the Broncos again showed a very good pass rush. Chris Simms left with an apparent lower-leg injury; didn't see much written about that today. Overall, the starters looked very good. Still, there were some clock-management and substitution issues which caused the offense to burn through their first-half timeouts. Tom Brandstater came in for Simms and was sacked four times. Meanwhile, Matt Prater bombed a field goal from 53 yards which may have been good from 65.
NFL - Box Score - Denver Broncos 13 at Seattle Seahawks 27
NFL - Video Highlights - Seahawks 27, Broncos 13
NFL - Kyle Orton highlights - Video
DB - Seahawks Postgame: McDaniels - Broncos TV
DB - Seahawks Postgame: Orton - Broncos TV
DP - Seahawks defeat Broncos 27-13 in preseason game at Seattle - Mike Klis
DP - Broncos see quiet, steady progress in Seattle - Jeff Legwold
Legwold evaluates each unit's performance
DP - Hillis glad to help anywhere - Jeff Legwold
Peyton Hillis lined up at RB, FB and WR last night; get used to it.
DB - Developing Their Own Brand - Chris Gentilviso
Tom Brandstater made his debut (to the tune of 4 sacks), while Britton Colquitt kicked a field goal.
DB - Progressing Through the Preseason - Gray Caldwell
DB - Broncos at Seahawks: First Half Live Blog - Kyle Sonneman
DB - Broncos at Seahawks: Second Half Live Blog - Kyle Sonneman
IDT - I’ll take McDaniels’ accountability any day over Marshall’s immature petulance - Hunter Ansley
DP - Klis: Brandon, be careful what you wish for
Klis points out why BMarsh is unlikely to get what he wants.
DP - Krieger: Chicken is a game with two losers
I'm not sure what "reality" Krieger thinks McDaniels and Co. need to face...does he think the Broncos need to give in and pay BMarsh for complaining?
DP - QB comes close to even better stats
Game notes from Klis and Jones
DP - Pass rushers find more fun in 3-4 defense - Lindsay Jones
AP - Denver Broncos Fall To 0-2 In Preseason Play - Greg Bell
CSG - Orton sharp early, but Broncos lose to Seattle - Frank Schwab
DP - Memo to Marshall: Show you're valuable
Kiszla responds to emails
NFL Results
NFL - San Diego Chargers 17 at Arizona Cardinals 6
Dolts D comes up with two big end-zone picks; LT plays again; Rivers and Volek both efficient.
NFL - Oakland Raiders 20 at San Francisco 49ers 21
Another big game from Niners RB Glenn Coffee; nice TD pass from JaMarcus the Hutt to Louis Murphy.
NFL - New York Giants 3 at Chicago Bears 17
Excellent performances from JC and Matt Forte lead Bears.
NFL - Carolina Panthers 17 at Miami Dolphins 27
Efficient quarterbacking from Pennington and Henne; Delhomme and DeAngelo Williams solid.
NFL - Detroit Lions 10 at Cleveland Browns 27
Rough outing for Matthew Stafford; big game from Josh Cribbs; solid start by Derek Anderson.
NFL - Pittsburgh Steelers 13 at Washington Redskins 17
Campbell 1 for 7; Skins run well in penalty-mired game.
NFL - Tampa Bay Buccaneers 24 at Jacksonville Jaguars 23
Huge game from WR Troy Williamson and David Garrard; solid running by Derrick Ward.
NFL - Buffalo Bills 21 at Green Bay Packers 31
Rodgers again looks exceptional; Packers D forces 5 turnovers.
NFL - New Orleans Saints 38 Houston Texans 14
Big game from old friend Mike Bell; Texans give it away 3 times.
AFC West
SDUT - Victorious Bolts have work to do - Kevin Acee
SDUT - Naanee once again puts his talents on display - Kevin Acee
SFC - Davis serves strong Coffee - John Crumpacker
SFG - Raiders Silver and Black Blog : Postgame notes (updated)
CCT - McDonald: Raiders decide Russell doesn't need two-minute drill work
CBS - Raiders camp report: Franchise QB or not to be? Russell's time is now - Clark Judge
KCS - Haley’s first Chiefs camp includes many memorable lessons - Kent Babb
KCS - Chiefs leave a few broken hearts as they part ways with River Falls, Wis. - Kent Babb
NFL News
NFL - Reid says Vick on track to make Eagles debut Thursday vs. Jaguars
NFL - Steelers QB Roethlisberger sits vs. Redskins to rest Achilles' tendon injury
NFL - Dolphins' Smith, Allen miss game vs. Panthers, being tested for swine flu
NFL - Cowboys rookie LB Williams likely done for season with knee injury
NFL Opinion
DP - Cutler maturing in role with Bears - Mike Klis
NFP - Sunday at the Post - Mike Lombardi
Lombardi doesn't think BMarsh's absence was a big deal; he says players don't travel when they're not expected to play under Belichick/McDaniels. Not sure I buy that one, but okay.
NFL - Favre immediately making his presence felt in Minnesota - Steve Wyche
ESPN - Dolphins' Pennington relishes his role - Chris Mortensen
NFP - 2009 NFP scouting series: Boston College - Wes Bunting
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Thanks!!
That drop by Gaffney was painful to watch :(
A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!!
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
I wouldn't throw him under the bus just yet...
remember BMarsh led the league in drops last year.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
He also has come up real big
in important games…..something we haven’t done with our ex QB or number 15
"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx
by dmitchell624 on Aug 23, 2009 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Zappa,
are you sure he led the league in drops last year? I thought Braylon Edwards did.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
He was targeted a lot
so he caught and dropped a lot of balls. In terms of ratio of drops per times targeted he was about the middle of the pack. Not great but not horrible, either, and that’s with some numbness in his hand. A more telling stat is that he caught about 57% of the balls thrown his way, whereas for Royal it was about 71%. That’s a huge difference and is why I felt that even last year Royal was the better receiver and will certainly be the better one this year.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Thanks for your persistence NYC
and I hope your Laptop gets well soon. ;-)
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
Article by Hunter Ansley a must read
This is one article everyone needs to read. It puts this offseason in the best perspective and put accountability where it should be.
Yes, Cutler has a cannon arm and put up hellacious stats under the past regime. Yes, Marshall racked up more than 100 receptions in each of the past two seasons. But where did those performances take the team? To couches placed in front of wall-sized plasma televisions to watch other bands of NFL brothers compete for football’s highest honor.
So, if you ask me, I’ll take the coach who demands the best from his players, the guy who is making the difficult decisions, the man who actually expects others to honor their commitments. You can have the arm strength, the crying, the public traitors, the self-worshipping, the Pro Bowl invites, the century-mark receptions and the integrity of a 2-year-old. Just don’t be surprised when this sport proves for the thousandth time that chains are only as strong as their weakest link
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Aug 23, 2009 9:48 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Great read. Nice to FINALLY have a reporter see what McDaniels is trying to do. Wish more had the guts to do the same.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
I felt the same way
Team building is rarely easy. Ansley’s article puts the situations that the Broncos are enduring into a reasonable perspective. Nice work
Hillis/Moreno in '09
I really like Hunter Ansley
"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx
by dmitchell624 on Aug 23, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't get it.
It’s not Cutler or Marshall’s fault the team didn’t make the playoffs, how is excluding them going to improve things?
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
by Fearless Frog on Aug 23, 2009 6:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Change in Culture
Some thinks— myself included— that a team approach in which no one individual is more important than the rest is the best way to compete in sports. They aren’t rejecting Cutler or Marshall’s talents, but rather their attitudes.
Only time will tell—- in so far as muddy water will become slightly less murky. The idea has never been that Cutler sucks/sucked, but rather that his attitude and skill set don’t fit what McD is trying to do. The same principle may be applied to Marshall…though I think its pretty clear to all but the McD-is-a-clueless-Stalin crowd that McD values Brandon Marshall. If he didn’t, it’d be settled by now.
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 23, 2009 6:09 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cutler had three subpar games in a row with the playoffs on the line
Clutch quarterbacks rise to the occasion. He didn’t. So maybe it is his fault the Broncos didn’t make the playoffs. Some might say that’s putting too much on one player, but those who are pissed at him being traded away appear to think losing him will make a big difference. Therefore it’s only fair to suggest that his poor clutch play made that big a difference in our historic collapse.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Oh and I forgot to say thanks NYC.
You always to a great job.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Thanks, NYC.
"If only I wasn't a cat, my curiosity affliction wouldn't be so deadly."
by Tempestuous Binary on Aug 23, 2009 9:50 AM MDT reply actions
I thought it
was a mild ankle sprain? At least that’s what it said in brief DP report last night. Didn’t sound too serious but don’t know if they’ve done tests on it or anything yet.
Orton continues to impress me
The way he carries himself is so refreshing. He’s not the flashiest QB in the league (far from it) but our team is taking on more of a “Spurs” feeling each day (to use a basketball analogy).
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Unknown, Hanlon's Razor
by bcfunk on Aug 23, 2009 10:20 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I like that analogy. :)
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
agreed. I really hope he finds his groove and does well with us. :-)
Joe Sakic was pure class, win or lose, at all times.
by Colorado_Kitten on Aug 23, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Spurs
I don’t want the Broncos to be compared to the Spurs. What, are we going to draw cheap penalties now and hit players out of bounds and injure them and get garbage wins? No thanks. I don’t want to be compared with the Fluktriots, neither.
by PABroncofan on Aug 23, 2009 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks NYC.
Legwold’s article on each unit’s performance made me think more about the game. He said that we gave up 20 rushing yards to the Seattle starting running-backs, but they only rushed seven times…which is a 2.9 average. That sounds pretty good to me. He made it sound like our defense played bad…I thought they did pretty good.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
Except for the ..
scramble by Seneca Wallace, I didn’t see a single run that went for more than 5 yards all night. Every defensive lineman did an outstanding job stopping the run. Also they only had 2 first downs by a running play and each of those was a short yardage gain.
Seattle had 5 three and outs, one in the first half and two in the second. Additionally there were two 5 and outs, where they got one first down and then were shut off.
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
Just like with San Fran, I came away feeling the better team lost. The turnovers are really annoying and by that I mean we need to create some too.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
Couldn't agree more with you McG.
I can understand turning the ball over some during the preseason . . . but I have been hoping the new defense could do the same back. -6 is a little scary.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
yeah, it's surprising...
New players, new coaches, new schemes… same result, lack of take-aways.
Bad karma… bad feng-shui? We sacrificed Shanny, but the gods are still not pleased…
by BuckarooBanzai on Aug 23, 2009 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Or...
…good karma, law-of-averages, whatever. Point being: hopefully the turnovers even out and we get paid back when the real bullets fly.
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 23, 2009 5:49 PM MDT up reply actions
totally agree
I like the sacks from our D this year (much improved), but we really need to start forcing some turnovers, too.
Joe Sakic was pure class, win or lose, at all times.
by Colorado_Kitten on Aug 23, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Not to mention stopping opposing offenses on third down. Especially 3rd and long.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
I came away with the same feeling
But I’m not worried about turnovers just yet. I don’t think those will come until the players are truly comforable in the new system. Turnovers require going that extra distance that you can only go once everything else is second nature.
(Reposted from prev thread) Looks like I made right choice
Inglourious Basterds and then Tivoing the game. ;-)
Fun movie, maybe not the most fun game ever. Watched it about half fast-forwarding… But saw some good stuff. Still rust on the offense side but when first team OL is in their blocking is superb. Looks like there’s still stuff to learn for players involved in the passing game but some good moments. Lovely TD pass. Second (and 3rd?) string OL not as effective, clearly. The defense had its moments, particularly again the 1st string. The secondary contributed to those sacks with terrific coverage at times. They looked worse later but I think that was more the backups.
Clearly they could use Knowshon and yep, Brandon, but since the defense is more what I was worried about coming into the season, their starting D looks a lot better at the basics, tackling and coverage than last year so that’s a good sign. Overall I’d give the O a B- and the D a B+ (again just talking first units here).
And I give Basterds a B+/A-.
Thanks nyc!
I want to pick a bone with you though about Special Teams. I thought the 1st team ST did very well. I will agree, however, that the 2d half ST with the 2nd & 3rd stringers did not perform well. BTW, I was shocked to see Colquitt kick a field goal.
I had hoped the time management and substitution problems from the first game would have been resolved. They were not.
Special Teams "defense"
looked really good to me, I’d agree. (the 1st unit, that is.) They made a bunch of nice stops. I am hopeful about that unit and it’s early but they already look like they’ll be tackling and stopping a lot better than last year’s model. The kick returning wasn’t good but with a lot of young, talented but inexperienced guys trying back there I’d expect some gaffes in exhibition. Punting, this week and last, looks good. Kicking will be fine. It’s just the KR and PR teams that need to improve.
Shocked
If Ocho Cinco can do it. Why not Coloquitt?
by ThorpeBroncosfan on Aug 23, 2009 11:37 AM MDT reply actions
Ocho Five
That was also a surprise. No, it’s just that Colquitt is a punter, not a field goal guy. It was a mild shock.
Remember . . . McDaniels wants guy that are versatile. Colquitt just showed us he IS versatile.
Now we know that if Prater melts down during the season again, we have another kicker to step in.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
I think McChesny #60 needs to go, he did not play well.
by ThorpeBroncosfan on Aug 23, 2009 11:39 AM MDT reply actions
Our whole second and especially third team O-lines were awful.
Stanley Bryant needs to go, fast. He got owned by that #98 guy. And McChesney and 71 (whoever that is) were racking up the penalties. Polumbus and Gorin look fine, though.
"In the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." -Ian Faith
we have to keep bodies around till we drop the roster sizes — i wouldn’t be worried about some of these people actually being on the 53 man roster
by Todd Jewell on Aug 23, 2009 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Seattle Seahawks
they had a helmet on the ball almost every time. our defense needs could learn a thing or two from them
i was happy to be at the game last night...
I thought we looked pretty good, defensively still a major work in progress but there is progress already.
Was looking forward to more of Simms as Orton IS NOT the star I’d like to see guiding our team. He will never be more than a ‘managing’ type. Of course this might do quite well for us with Josh’s (so far) excellent play calling.
by Whidbey Bronco on Aug 23, 2009 12:20 PM MDT reply actions
John Clayton on ESPN Radio
Just now said very little of interest about the Broncos game, which apparently he was at (or at least watched), but it was good to hear him say Orton seems like he’ll be efficient in the offense, looked better than last week other than that dumb interception (he of course didn’t mention the TD that was dropped by Gaffney). Said the Defense still looks suspect so it’s on Orton to keep the offense on the field (of course the first team defense did have its lapses yesterday but overall looked good to me; maybe he thinks their third string defense and bubble players looked suspect). Anyway, for Clayton his comments should be counted as high praise given his CutlerLove.
Once the Broncos get everyone healthy and Marshal decides to
join the team, I think they will be alright. I want to see Dawkins give some Pay back from his safety spot! Remember, Seattle beat The bolts last week rather handily! I think Moreno can help the stale running game and Marshal will help the passing game! Reduce the turn overs and they will be fine.
NYC
The only one needing a reality check is Dave Krieger. He is a poor pompous excuse of a writer.
Gives only his negative never supported by any facts.
"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx
Who Needs a Reality Check?
I am afraid that I again totally disagree with many of the posts above, including the above one on Dave Krieger. Krieger strikes me as one of a minority of Post sportwriters who is willing to try to paint an objective view of the team thus far. Klis seems to be much more of a homer, so much so that I can’t even read his prose any more.
Denver snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by collapsing at the end of the first half and the second half was just plain ugly. Orton seems to do fine when he is scripted, but get him out of his comfort level or ask him to improvise and he is a disaster.
There were some good moments last night. There was a pass rush and Dumervil seems to be out of his sophomore slump. The secondary looked pretty good. The running game had its moments when passes were expected, and Eddie Royal, Peyton Hillis and last year’s line looks like they are where they were last year.
I expect good things from the Broncos this upcoming preseason opener at Invesco against the Bears. I hope it doesn’t become ugly with either QB and that we can see Denver play a game from start to finish.
by Baltimore Bronco on Aug 23, 2009 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions
You forget what preseason is for
Some coaches try to establish a winning habit in preseason, others are more concerned with evaluating players and situations. We’re used to Shanahan, who concentrated on winning games. Under McDaniels we’re probably not going to have a winning record year after year in the preseason, but that doesn’t mean we won’t do well in the regular season. A lot of the players who played in the second half aren’t going to be with us in a couple of weeks. The point of them being in the game is that when McDaniels makes his cuts he can do so knowing how those players performed in actual games. It doesn’t make for winning games in the preseason, but it does help make sure we keep the right 53 players and that they maximize their development before the games start counting.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Denver Played its First String Offense Longer
I agree that preseason is essentially to warm up your players and pick the squad, but Denver kept its first string offense in for part of the second half and it looked worse then.
Cutting this team won’t be all that hard. That second team offensive line looked weak.
I worry about what happens if Orton goes down.
by Baltimore Bronco on Aug 24, 2009 6:44 AM MDT up reply actions
4th down
having only seen the highlights, box score and read these reports – its odd but not suprising how few times that anyone mentions that the interception was on a 4th down and was pretty much a throw to nothing.
by mikebirty on Aug 23, 2009 1:57 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Some quick thoughts...
Orton had a nice game, no arguments here. I don’t like his “brain-freeze” moment, though. Yes, it was 4th down, but it was still a live play. It could’ve been intercepted and taken all the way back. As it was, Seattle got the ball at 20 instead of 1 yard line if it had just been a simple incompletion. Hopefully we won’t see much of it in the regular season. The Orton I’ve read about here is suppose to be careful with the ball.
The front 7 were very physical and will be tough to run on. It was nice to see the defense not get pushed around. Seattle, though, needs to upgrade their running backs.
Seattle was exploiting the weakness in the 4-3/5-2 scheme… the mobility of the OLBs and their ability to react. I think we’ll see lots of screens and passes to the flats until they improve in this respect.
I’m perplexed a bit by McD’s play calling near the goal line… 3 straight passes from the 1 yard line? That’s Jeremy Bates play calling. I hope the idea was to practice short-yardage passing plays, but it would’ve been nice to practice short yardage running plays too.
The passing game (being so complex) needs more work than the running game
hence McDaniels’ play-calling choices.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
It was either...
Throw it up with the left arm for the heck of it… or waste a play anyhow by being sacked.
In regular season that ball would’ve been run in on third down and never gotten to the fourth.
by Matt In Canada on Aug 23, 2009 8:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton's grenade toss INT
While you say we didn’t have anything to lose by his lame left handed INT, I dissagree. Sure the offense didn’t have anything to lose they were off the field either way but without the INT it puts Seattle on the 2 yard line and our defense can try and get hungry, instead they end up on the 20.
by milehighassassin on Aug 23, 2009 3:37 PM MDT reply actions
I doubt he makes that choice in the regular season.
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 23, 2009 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
It came after a sure TD was dropped by Gaffney
AND they wouldn’t even be going for it there most times in the regular season. That said, I don’t think anyone (including Orton) has defended that goofy throw. But better get that stuff out of your system now when it doesn’t count…
Oops. Dumb mistake.
But none of the rest of us do that.
Orton could carry this team to the AFC Championship game— as NFL MVP— and all we’d hear about is how he cost us that game.
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 23, 2009 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
wonder how the D will hold up against....
Arizona….I think they will be the biggest offensive test for this D in the preseason…
Chicago may show us how good the run D is but for overal test…I think Arizona will provide the best litmus.
nycbroncosfan, your opinion that the special teams were rotten
needs to be put in context. The punt block, for instance, was due mainly to Colquitt’s long-striding, big wind-up, three-step delivery. He was very slow in getting the punt away and will have to fix that if he hopes to beat out Kern. The punter can’t afford to be that deliberate that close to the goal line. The other breakdowns were also fixable individual mistakes. What was important to me was that the coverage units covered well for the second straight game, and the return units blocked well for the second straight game. On several occasions we stopped the returner inside the 20, something that just didn’t happen last year. And on several occasions the returner, due to good blocking at the point of attack, broke through the first wave of tacklers and got out beyond the 30, which again didn’t happen much last year. What I see are signs that, for the first time in a long time, our special teams are going to be competitive.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
All good points, Spock. I was impressed by the kick coverage, which is an unfamiliar feeling…
by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 23, 2009 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Not sure on Ayers and the OLB thing.
Last night, at least, he made Andra Davis look like a burner. Also took some very bad angles in pursuit. I know…he’s learning…but I’m not seeing the tools.
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 23, 2009 5:58 PM MDT reply actions
Sunday Night Football sched
I just noticed the Broncos aren’t on SNF on NBC this season. :-( No Al and John for us.
orton looked good???
lets not all jump on the bandwagon just yet. he had several decent throws when he had protection. he also threw passes that were off the mark to open receivers…and that int he through in the endzone before the first half was inexcusable! he needs to continue to improve leaps and bounds in two weeks time, if not what do we have. looks like simms is down for awhile. 3rd qb needs to go on our practice squad. there some work that needs to be done.
Doc...stick with golf...we all get you dont like Orton but bring facts and not personal vitriol!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

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