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Ayer's Will Be a Late Bloomer, But He Will Bloom

Hi everybody, I haven't really contributed much too this site other than the occasional comment or fanshot.  Every once in a while I will toss in a Jab or a sarcastic remark.  However, I have been sensing a growing amount of concern over the play of Robert Ayers and I would like to address this.  Long story short, I don't think we should be worried and I will explain myself after the jump.

 

Star-divide

As with preseason games, we shouldn't get too apocalyptic about Ayers either. This is his pre-career.  Here is why; it is a common misconception that OT's and QB's have the hardest transition from College to the Pro's.  DE's in the 4-3 and OLB's in the 3-4 are having the most difficult learning curve right now.

The problem is that so many OT's are very good at their jobs right now.  In college a single signature move will get you a lot of sacks...be it the Bullrush a spin move or the speed rush.  The rare DE will also have a swim move or something of that nature.  In the pro's the starting OT's tackles know how to counter almost every move a DE or rushing OLB can throw at them.  Therefore, a pro must increase his repertoire and keep the OT guessing as to what move they need to counter. Even though DE/OLB is one of the more simple positions on the field that skill level required for perfection of these simple concepts has greatly increased.

My point thus far is this,   While we are seeing an increase in effective rookie play from the QB and OT position, that is countered by a decrease in effective DE/OLB rookie play.  This issue isn't a condemnation of the talent coming into the league, but it does give us an idea of where the best coaching is currently taking place in college. Even in the SEC this is advantage currently on the offensive side of the ball.

I will give one key case example named Mario Williams.  While my current career is accumulating and reporting statistics, that is not what I am going to give you now.  This is just a conceptual argument.  Mario Williams had one of the most impressive Rookie combines in history.  His measurable's and motor were absolutely off the chart, coupled with a very productive college career.  His talent was never in question. Some pundits believed that Mario (and Robert Ayers), and I'm looking at Mike Mayock here, expected these players to dominate from their position right out of the gate.  There reasoning seems sound, i.e. These guys play a simple and mostly physical position.  Mario Williams (Robert Ayers) have exceptional physical ability including: strength, speed, agility and energy.  The problem is that with only a few moves, a good left tackle (of which there are many in the league right now) can learn to counter and completely shut down even the most physically gifted and hard working rushers if they only have one move. Secondly, the schemes that college defenses employ are painfully simple.  They are so simple in fact that having a scheme where you can be both a rusher and a cover guy (3-4) is almost unheard of.  Their large rosters enable them to use role players for rushing and covering.  Therefore, the finer coaching and schematic knowledge coming to college defender's is sadly inadequate.

 

The result was that the freakishly gifted Mario Williams was almost invisible  his rookie year.  The people cried bust, the pundits claimed that the Texans surely should have taken Reggie Bush or Vince Young (LMFAO), these guys were producing.  The problem was that Mario Williams had a single move, and that was an explosive and devastating bull rush.  Even a physically weak OT can counter this if he know's it is coming.  Fast forward to last year, and Mario has learned new moves.  That is the only difference but it was the only thing that mattered.  Last year the original assessment showed its fruit and Mario Williams was utterly unstoppable.  This is because his learning finally caught up to his talent.

So, even though we want to be impatient with Ayer's, the unfortunate truth is that he lacked complete coaching in College. Ayers has a single signature move identical to Williams, i.e. the powerful and devastating bullrush.  Since the defense is behind the offense in college, the defensive rookie players will be behind the offensive rookie players.  Coaching takes time.  Therefore, nobody should expect a big year from Ayers despite his impressive talent level.  Like Williams he will probably be invisible this, his rookie year.  However, when his coaching has caught up to his talent we will finally be able to see what he can really do.

Instead of being concerned about Ayer's and his draft status we just need to accept that being a rookie playing the position he does is probably a two year project even at his draft level.  Try not to pay attention this year, don't worry about him being lost. In this day and age of the game this is unfortunately normal.  However, when it clicks expect and hope him to shake the earth. Given the simplicity of his position, we will all be able to identify the game/moment when the light comes on.  Until then though, expect to see flashes but no more than that. And give him time.

Though it may not seem like it, I am trying to be encouraging.  While I predict a very quiet rookie year for Ayer's we should not be surprised or dismayed.  His time will come, he has the talent, I think he has the dedication and desire..he just does not yet have the coaching.  He will get that coaching, but the light won't come on this year or I will be very surprised.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 41 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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Mario Williams

We can only hope. He truly is a beast!

by topnation on Aug 24, 2009 12:06 AM MDT reply actions  

Yes.

My thoughts exactly. Bravo!

- The last guy to don the #56 out of Tennessee? Mr. Al Wilson. We can always hope.

Take my advice, I'm not using it !!!

by grind_core on Aug 24, 2009 12:15 AM MDT reply actions  

Thank you

and I also forgot to mention that Ayer’s was a late bloomer in college as well. It doesn’t make sense to expect him to learn a much more difficult scheme twice as fast this time around.

It is said that ducks crash and die on the blue turf.

by Welcome2Boise on Aug 24, 2009 12:30 AM MDT reply actions  

Trevor Pryce is another good example.

He didn’t play until near the end, if not last game, of his rookie season. He certainly turned out well. It will take time for Ayers, and all of the rookies to develop. Any production we get before they have had at least one year in the league is gravy to me. Moreno strikes me as one of rare Royal-like rookies who will get the pro-game right out of the blocks.

by Orange Crush II on Aug 24, 2009 2:28 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Good points. These guys used to be simply charged with the task of backfield mayhem. Now coaches want them to be able to track TE’s across middle zones.

He’s got a lot to get a hold of this quickly. My guess is that had the coaches decided to put Ayers solely at DE, we would have heard his name called a couple more times for good things he would have done.

I think we’ll see production from him by week 8 or 9.

by dr.mort on Aug 24, 2009 2:37 AM MDT reply actions  

Great point but I've been so psyched about Elvis I havn't paid much attention.

I really think Dumerville is going to have a great year but we need Ayers to be great as well and your right it is a matter of time. I don’t think it will take as long as it did for Mario Williams. For one thing Ayers is going to be asked to focus more on stopping the run and won’t be expected to have that big a roll in the pass rush. He is almost ready now to fill that roll, we will be well aware of his value to the defense especially by the second half of the season.

by Lisa FB on Aug 24, 2009 6:02 AM MDT reply actions  

My only concern

about Ayers is seeing how lost he looks when the play starts. I was hoping he’d be a little more up to speed on what the defense is running and his role in it.

by 47RulesofHighlyEffectiveBankRobbers on Aug 24, 2009 7:19 AM MDT reply actions  

Perfect reasoning

While reading your post the name Trevor Pryce came to mind instantly, and then in reading the comments found OC II had beaten me to it.

The advantage Ayres has is that he is getting some reps against first team offenses, seems an intelligent young man with a great work ethic and a willingness to learn. He has excellent coaches to be bring the best out of him.

I am sure he will prove to be one of the smarter 1st round draft picks over time.

I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet

by BlobTheMagnificent on Aug 24, 2009 7:20 AM MDT reply actions  

I can't judge Ayers for at least two years....

America is all about instant gratification, but DLinemen need some time and we have to keep reminded ourselves of that. Ayers will be a beast one day. :)

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Aug 24, 2009 7:56 AM MDT reply actions  

I wouldn't compare Ayers with Orakpo either at this point.

It will take some time before he starts “reacting” instinctively, right now he is going through the motions of what he has learned and trying to script it all together. By mid season he should be coming along but remember for some players it takes a couple of years like Zappa said.

by bfree2bronc on Aug 24, 2009 8:31 AM MDT reply actions  

Especially since they are being asked to do different things in different schemes.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Aug 24, 2009 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think given time...

Ayers will be fine and turn into a tremendous player. But, right now he just looks slow and confused. He was out of position on several plays and slow to react to the play coming his way against Seattle. While I don’t expect him to be a beast yet, I’d expect him to know his position and play harder than he did against Seattle at this point.

by bchiper on Aug 24, 2009 8:51 AM MDT reply actions  

Ayers

From watching him I have loved his physical ability but noticed his confusion as well.

With time I could see this guy turning into a powerful defensive player.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 24, 2009 8:58 AM MDT reply actions  

Exceptional

Well reasoned, well written and an easy rec. He’s moving to a position that he’s only played sparingly in college and he is far behind the curve from his holdout. It’s tough to make up the ground (are you listening, Mr. Crabtree?) you’ve missed. He’s also finding out what nearly every rookie finds out – the NFL is made up of a whole lot of the best guys you ever played against, and many of them have seen it all before. I wouldn’t expect miracles from any player in his position, and Mario Williams is perhaps the best current example of why. Nice job!

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 24, 2009 11:58 AM MDT reply actions  

I didn't see anything in college

or here to make me think he will turn out great. I hope I’m wrong. My rule of thumb for sacks is if you can’t get a lot in college, you won’t get them in the pros. That’s why I was so excited when we drafted Elvis.

by Broncos_FTW on Aug 24, 2009 2:10 PM MDT reply actions  

Which is more important

sacks or pressures on the QB? If the numbers are equal, sacks no question. But when the other numbers are exponentially higher… Look at Ayers’ numbers in college on pressuring the QB and in tackles for a loss. That should help you feel better about him.

"3rd and 6, Elway shotgun... Elway, scrambling, looking, running-- DIVING!!!-- inside the 5 yard line for a first down! Is he only 37?! How important is this football game? How bad does John Elway want to win this football game? Where you see the quarterbacks go down: Not Elway!"

by Sharpe as a Tack on Aug 24, 2009 10:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fantastic job

and rec’d. Your point is well taken. The number of tackles taken in the first round has really exploded, in some part because we see more pro-style passing games in college and they come in with better smarts. For Ayers or anyone else, the expected learning curve is a long one.

Of course, this won’t stop people from complaining he’s not a star this year and pining away for workout warrior Orakpo….

by Chibronx on Aug 24, 2009 2:44 PM MDT reply actions  

Orakpo was a guy who had double digit sacks his last year in college and has

looked scary in the preseason. He lifted a 300+ lb. OT into the air in his last game and spent most of the game disrupting Pittsburgh’s offense in their backfield.

by Broncos_FTW on Aug 24, 2009 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

agreed. the jury is still out on Ayers, but Orakpo looks like a stud already. Ayers looks…Moss/Crowder like. :(

I do not share the OP’s optimism.

by thedoctor on Aug 24, 2009 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Q.E.D.!

Like I was saying, the fact that he’s looked bad through two preseason games, while Orakpo looked good Saturday, is going to lead people to doubt the pick.

by Chibronx on Aug 24, 2009 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

My point was Orakpo was not a workout warrior,

which is, by definition, someone who has a great workout but no body of work in college to back it up. Orakpo was the opposite – someone who dominated in college and had an extraordinary combine workout.

by Broncos_FTW on Aug 24, 2009 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Gotcha — and sorry for the snark. I’ve been so heavily persuaded by the criticisms that he took plays off and that Texas players flame out in the pros, I completely forgot his on-field accomplishments.

I’ll add, though, that abusing Pittsburgh’s OL really isn’t that much of an achievement. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a Superbowl winner with worse pass protection over the past 15 years, maybe more.

by Chibronx on Aug 24, 2009 3:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

But isn't Orakpo playing DE in a 4-3?

If that’s the case his learning curve isn’t as steep because he’s not having to learn a new position. I consider all of our OLB’s to be works in progress, with Doom having made the most progress so far (but don’t know how well he’s doing as a runstopper). Ayers started late and has a lot more to learn than Orakpo before he can let his physical ability take over.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Aug 25, 2009 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe so..

But remember it wasn’t a choice between Orakpo or Ayers it was Orakpo or Moreno. We could have had Orakpo and Ayers but neither Orakpo or Moreno would have been there at the 18th pick. I like Moreno a lot and we’ll see what happens with Ayers.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Aug 24, 2009 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, but drafting two rush 'backers in the same round?

That’s like going back in the time machine to one of Shanahan’s cluster-bomb drafts. I really do buy the logic of spreading picks out over a number of positions.

by Chibronx on Aug 24, 2009 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great post. Rec'd.

I agree! In the days of Joe Collier, I remember someone saying that it takes a LB 2 training camps to play effectively in the 3-4. Ayers missed the starting gate by the holdout. He is an excellent athlete – as is Mario Williams. Your comparison is well taken. His confusion, learning curve for the OLB in a 3-4 and coming up to speed in the NFL where nearly everyone is a good player contributes to his perceived slowness. His head is probably going 90 mph. My sense coming on around mid-season. I think that he is a fairly quick study – even tho he sure doesn’t look it right now.

by Blackknigh on Aug 24, 2009 4:04 PM MDT reply actions  

Thank you all very much for the compliments

It’s nice to be supported. It is definitely going to be interesting to watch him develop. I really hope he is who we drafted him to be.

An interesting observation was made on Orakpo. Apparently he picked up an OT and tossed him. Well…I remember watching Mario Williams do the exact same thing to an OT for the Giants his rookie year. He got low on the guy, picked him up and threw him into Eli Manning. Williams was credited with the sack. This is what I mean by flashes, Orakpo is already flashing as Mario did. It is also possible Orakpo has a better rookie year than Ayers, but we will see who the better pro is in a few years.

It is said that ducks crash and die on the blue turf.

by Welcome2Boise on Aug 24, 2009 4:13 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

well done W2B

so…is “blossom” a good nickname for Ayers? :)

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 24, 2009 9:30 PM MDT reply actions  

Hmm

Kinda reminds me of a terrible sitcom I remember seeing a while back…about a girl. Not sure about that one. Haha

It is said that ducks crash and die on the blue turf.

by Welcome2Boise on Aug 25, 2009 12:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Indeed, it would ne nice to see Ayers

become more Mario-like, rather than Moss-like. I’m curious, then, what are the differences that would make one think Ayers is more likely to succeed where Moss has failed? (While he hasn’t necessarily failed outright; no one will mistake Moss for Mario.)

by MakeCents on Aug 24, 2009 9:56 PM MDT reply actions  

A Thought

From what I have seen, Ayers plays with a lot of strength for the position. Yes, he is quite slow at this point but that should be expected. When watching Jarvis, he is a pure speed player. I have never seen him effectively bull rush anyone. He completely relies on his speed to make a play, which makes him a pushover for most tackles in the NFL. To me Ayers has already shown his strength but it is not coupled with any move as of yet. From what I have seen in film though, that ability is there, it is just hidden beneath the learning curve he is stuck in right now.

by chipbeavpie on Aug 24, 2009 11:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Talent

The late production from Ayer’s was the question coming out of college. When Jarvis came out, His size, strength, and mental toughness were all in question. Ayer’s had a very strong Junior season and showcased his talent, even though he didn’t have very many sacks. His stock then really surged with a superb senior bowl and combine showine. Moss had a single dominant performance that thrust him into the first round. His best game happened to be the National Championship game, so Shanny overlooked an apparent lack of talent/size for the position.

So, the difference is that nobody doubts Ayer’s talent, while many have doubted Moss’ even before he was drafted

It is said that ducks crash and die on the blue turf.

by Welcome2Boise on Aug 25, 2009 12:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the replies, friends!

Don’t know that you’ll see this, as it’s gone rather cold, but I appreciate the info!

I did take note of Moss’s negatives at the time (light, weak, injured – wasn’t his bench press way low?), and the universal opinion that we had reached. (By the same token, many thought we reached with Royal; but Shanahan proved his ability to evaluate offensive talent. He had to have been taking questionable advice from the D-crowd.) I hadn’t considered that Moss’s profile went up with the Gators success that year, and I’m not even sure I saw their bowl game.

Anyway, thanks for contrasting Ayers there for me – you both answered my question!

by MakeCents on Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

No wqorries

Yeah, it’s probably just you and me, MC. But still:

Height: 6’0.64
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.68
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 16
Vertical Jump: 30 1/2
Broad Jump: 10’00"
20 Yrd Shuttle:
3-Cone Drill:
Chose not to do shuttles

Dates: 03/07/07
Height: 6064
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.68
10 Yrd Dash: 1.52 225 Lb. Bench Reps:
Vertical Jump:
Broad Jump:
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.41
3-Cone Drill: 7.21

A 16 on the bench press is pertty ppor, and the lack of upper body strength (and technique) has been a constant issue. Hope this helps.

Doc

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 26, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Have I got this right?

We draft a guy in the top 20 of the NFL Draft because we are sure that he will perform next year , or maybe the year after>?

It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09

by firstfan on Aug 25, 2009 12:17 AM MDT reply actions  

Uh,

I think we want all of our draft picks to perform well next year, and the year after, and the year after that, ect.

Your comment fits right in with the Texans were stupid for drafting Mario Williams crowd. That crowd was yelling that mantra very loudly for during his rookie year. Now? Crickets.

The point of the article is very true, 4-3 DE’s & 3-4 OLB’s take a while to develop. When you draft these players high, you have to let them earn their lumps their frist year. Do we want exceptional performance from Ayers this year, of course. Should we expect it? No. The most we should expect is flashes of excellence and slow but steady progress from the 1st game to the last.

I definately don’t think 3 years from now we look back and regret drafting Ayers. You will never hear a Texans fan say, “yeah I really love Mario Williams now but he just didn’t look good his rookie year. Without excellent performance in his rookie year I just don’t think he’s was worth a #1. I wish we wouldn’t have drafted him.”

People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.

by c_style on Aug 27, 2009 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

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