REPORT: Broncos acquire OL Russ Hochstein from Patriots
by John Bena on Aug 25, 2009 11:09 AM MDT
in Roster Moves
214 comments
Per Adam Schefter's twitter, the Broncos and Patriots have made yet another trade, this time for some offensive line depth -
Denver and New England at it again. This time the Broncos acquire offensive tackle Russ Hochstein from the Patriots for late-round 2010 pick
Two problem areas for the Broncos coming into camp were perceived to be depth along the Offensive and Defensive Lines. It appears the Broncos have addressed both in separate deals with the Patriots.
After the jump, some information highlighting Hochstein's career to date -
- Hochstein enters 2009 having spent the last seven seasons with the Patriots (2002-08). He has appeared in 91 games for New England and is one of just eight current Patriots to have played in 90 or more games for the team entering 2009.
- In his seven seasons in New England, Hochstein has been a part of five division championships, three conference titles and two Super Bowl crowns.
- Hochstein has been a versatile contributor for the Patriots, and in his regular-season and playoff career has started 12 games at guard, 10 games at center, two games at fullback and one game at tight end.
- In 2008, Hochstein started the final two games of the season at fullback and saw significant time at fullback and tight end in those contests as the Patriots totaled 351 rushing yards.
- In 2007, Hochstein started a career-high eight regularseason games as part of a Patriots offensive line that allowed just 21 sacks, the fewest for the franchise in 30 years.
- Hochstein contributed to a Patriots offense that set alltime NFL records with 589 points and 75 touchdowns in 2007.
- In 2005, Hochstein took over for an injured Dan Koppen as the Patriots' starting center for the final seven regular season games and both playoff contests. He helped the Patriots finish the season as the NFL's seventh-ranked offense, and powered New England to more than 130 rushing yards in five of his nine starts, including playoffs.
- Hochstein showed his versatility in the 2004 playoffs, starting the AFC Championship Game as a third tight end, and then lining up at fullback in Super Bowl XXXIX to pave the way for Corey Dillon's 2-yard touchdown run.
- After starting the 2003 season on the Patriots practice squad, Hochstein got the starting nod at left guard in the 2003 AFC Championship Game and also in Super Bowl XXXVIII in place of an injured Damien Woody. He was part of an offensive line that did not allow a sack in either game.
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Ladies and gentleman
your Denver Cornhuskers. I’m from Nebraska and I approve of this deal.
by alacy9513 on Aug 25, 2009 11:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You mean -
Denver Patriots, right?
by Merlin Scott on Aug 25, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Used to be the Denver 49ers.
"They're watching me."
by Tempestuous Binary on Aug 25, 2009 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great
These moves mean little to me, other than giving me something to ponder while I’m watching backups in preseason games. But this is annoying in that I can already smell whiners coming out in so many ways to complain about this move. “More Patriot scrubs!, we’re turning into New England West!” “McDaniels doesn’t know what he’s doing, he’s dismantling the best rushing attack evah and getting rid of the ZBS!” Ugh, can we make these trades private so that I don’t have to hear this crap?
In all seriousness, I know nothing of this guy. Anybody got any inside poop?
by BroncosBassist on Aug 25, 2009 11:14 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What's the over/under on
The typical “Great, another patsie” type comment? I’m thinking 10, since we’re already at 5 here.
by AllBroncsallday on Aug 25, 2009 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno man
I think it was 3 in the other thread, lol
by AllBroncsallday on Aug 27, 2009 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
after watching Brandstater get pummeled, I’ll take as much o-line depth as we can
by lolcopter on Aug 25, 2009 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's okay, but certainly not good enough to start for the Broncos
You can do a lot worse for a backup interior lineman, though. I suspect that this doesn’t portend well for Kory Lichtensteiger, because you have to think that Seth Olsen and Tyler Polumbus are locks to make the team, and Hochstein would be the eighth guy, probably bumping Lichtensteiger
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Aug 25, 2009 11:18 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not a starter...
But he could be the first lineman in, especially since he knows the system. I don’t think the powers that be were thrilled with Olsen’s performance, especially against San Francisco…
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
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by John Bena on Aug 25, 2009 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed but
clearly they could use more OL depth right now, yah, after watching their 2nd and 3rd strings struggle in Seattle. None of us are worried about the starting guys but more depth helps, so what the heck, he’s solid enough.
by underdog on Aug 25, 2009 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adding, from the one year of wicked annoying time I did with all the Massholes, he played quite a bit in 2007, and was part of the second-half line problems on that team. He wasn’t bad per se, just one of the weak links on the weakest unit of an undefeated team.
It’s funny — for a team that values line play and does so well on the defensive side of the line, the Patriots have struggled quite a bit on the offensive line. I’m optimistic that Rick Dennison can get better results out of anybody. But in general, this is the one area of McXanders’ personnel strategy where I’m a little uncomfortable.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guard Play
I was a little concerned that our Guards were not opening good running lanes. I agree that he won’t start but will add experienced depth. We were really falling down on our 2d & 3rd string play. Lichtensteiger may be the odd man out since Hochstein has also played FB, Center, etc. My only concern is Hochstein is older and we may be giving up a good project for a decent backup.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very experienced...
He has played and started at several positions. Over 90 games played, so he provides the veteran depth many people were looking for.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
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by John Bena on Aug 25, 2009 11:19 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't argue with the move
Let’s see… a late round draft choice who would have to learn the system (hard) and make the team (debatable) – versus – a seasoned vet who knows the system and can contribute immediately?
The Broncos need insurance for the OL, and this guy will do that. He might also help keep Orton or Simms from getting killed in the event one of the starters goes down.
by nativesun on Aug 25, 2009 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he's coming to play FB?
Maybe McD wants to give Hillis more reps from the HB position and Keep Larsen on the defensive side of the ball. He did start several games there last year…
by RevrendBronco on Aug 25, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That thought entered my brain as well.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same Thought
Hochstein is a versatile player. He is familiar with HB, C and G positions. He gives good depth at the G positions (where I for one thought we had some issues opening running lanes the first two preseason games when the 2d & 3rd teamers were in). He’s not a starter but he’s a very good backup at several positions.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better to be New England West under coach McDaniels then...
the Browncos under Coach Shannahan (remember all those Browns D-Linemen).
by AltReal7 on Aug 25, 2009 11:21 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I sure hope you are right
Those Browncos made the AFC title game.
by AKfan on Aug 25, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, yeah...
And the Denver Browncos.
"They're watching me."
by Tempestuous Binary on Aug 25, 2009 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who got waived?
To make room on the roster for this guy?
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
by AlanC11 on Aug 25, 2009 11:23 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Jay Cutler
the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson
by ktown on Aug 25, 2009 11:26 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Patriots West?
I guess the Texans are Broncos South then. I’m glad to see that McDaniels can get the talent he thinks he needs to improve the club. Naturally he’s going to go after players he is comfortable with from a versatility and character point of view. I’m looking forward to having a club patterned after the Patriots. They have had a reputation as being a “team” for several years and look what it’s got them. Of course we could have hired Art Shell and copied the Raiders organizational model.
by George Hayduke on Aug 25, 2009 11:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Does that make the Texans the Patriots West South?
"In the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." -Ian Faith
by papigrande on Aug 25, 2009 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Side note
This caught my eye:
In 2008, Hochstein started the final two games of the season at fullback and saw significant time at fullback and tight end in those contests as the Patriots totaled 351 rushing yards.
Love the versatility. I’ve been unconvinced that Larsen will continue at fullback for very long – with the way he’s playing right now, I suspect that he will start over A. Davis later this year, and possibly sooner. If Hochstein can provide a skill as a blocking fullback, even just on goal line situations, I’d be thrilled. It would upgrade our LBs by permitting Larsen to concentrate on a position where I think he can excel.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 11:28 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Doc, I didn’t get to see the second team on Saturday, and I watched the whole thing via a crummy streaming feed on which I couldn’t read numbers well. I’d be curious for your two bits on how the ILBs are doing.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mixed feelings, CB
I have the same impression of A. Davis that I have since we picked him – very fine man, invaluable in the locker room, a tremendous coach/player for the younger guys and too slow on the field. In his case, I’m not seeing his experience mattering enough to get him to the right spot at the right time. His coverage skills are very suspect, even in a zone setting.
High points – DJ, Woodyard, Larsen. Each seems to be playing well. DJ obviously likes his latest new position, Woodyard seems to be picking up where he left off last season and Larsen’s motivation, fiery drive and power are shining more brightly than ever. I have good feelings about the group. Haggan has taken some snaps at OLB and some at ILB – he was in a 4-3 perviously, and even when he was drafted he was a tweener who probably should be been picked up by a 3-4 team.
I couldn’t see every play of the game, so I won’t go very much further into this, but I did see enough to know that our OLBs struggled late into the first half and into the second. Ayers looks about how I’d expect him too, having missed a lot of practices and coming in late at a position that wasn’t his common slot. I didn’t see much of Reid or Crowder, but thought that Doom looked very good, very natural. I only caught a few plays of Moss – he did well during them.
Final thought – it’s really still very early. I expect a lot of rough edges, and we’ve seeing them. But there are already some bright spots, and we have the people to improve quite a bit – I’m still optimistic.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Doc
I’ve got nothing to add. I thought DJ and Doom looked good, but, um, duh.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss impressed me
There were back to back plays where Moss went right through his blocker and disrupted the play. He definately is a lot quicker of the snap when he is standing up than when he has a hand in the dirt.
Andre Davis hasn’t impressed me too much either but he is still 10 times the player Webster is.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Aug 25, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been of the opinion after camp and the first two preseason games that Larsen could very well start the first game over Davis, but I think it will happen within the first three games.
by Todd Jewell on Aug 25, 2009 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes!
I’d love to see Larsen starting over Davis!
by Gristle McThornbody on Aug 25, 2009 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blocking FB in Goal Line vs. Orton left-handed passes :-)
I will take the aquisition for OL/FB to add to our Goal scoring Proficience, and allow Spencer Larsen to concentrate on being the Stud at ILB.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
by Broncobh on Aug 25, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a goaline fullback
i watch most NE games(live there) and he lined up as fullback on goalines. This will help us finish off those drives maybe, and punch it in with hillis and not throw left handed ducks.
Still we all at MHR have witnessed theese past two years some of the talent we cant get in the later rounds of the draft. I just think that throwing away a draft pick isnt good. How many picks do we have next year, we threw away a fifth, now this, the LeKevin trade we need to give them something because we already used our fifth. I like stockpiling picks not dumping them.
"He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life". -Muhammad Ali
Celtics-17 rings, 18 on the way
Im drowning in all this Kool-aid
by BDAWKisaBRONC on Aug 25, 2009 11:35 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
McD has probably already got a few calls
and maybe tentative trade offers (picks) for a couple of guys that we are likely to let go, so we may get a pick or 2 back before it’s all said and done…Maybe?
by BroncoSense72 on Aug 25, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Xanders
has probably gotten a few calls since he is the GM. McD has better things to do getting the team ready to play. The next few weeks will see a lot of trades in the league. We’ll probably let a few good players go early so they can catch on with another team.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
im kind of glad as well
there are no harsh feelings between belicheck and McD. If you saw Belicheck;s press confrence he was smiling and laughing talking about McD and his hoody.
"He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life". -Muhammad Ali
Celtics-17 rings, 18 on the way
Im drowning in all this Kool-aid
by BDAWKisaBRONC on Aug 25, 2009 11:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Conspiracy Theory
I know, I know. What do you think of the possibility that Belichick is, consciously or unconciously, wanting to help McD because Belichick wants to enhance his own legacy? Other assistants who left NE to become HC’s have not done well.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Conspiracy
Why would Belichick help another team beat his own team out of the playoffs or Superbowl? I doubt he (or anyone) woud go that far just to enhance his own legacy. Besides, when is the last time you sat down after a Superbowl, thought about the head coach of the winning team, and then wondered what head coach(es) he worked for prior to his becoming a head coach? I’m guessing never.
by CompUser on Aug 25, 2009 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I Said
It’s a stupid idea. But I thought it would be interesting to throw it out for discussion. I’m not one for conspiracy theories.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: conspiracy theories
The “Belichick wants to help McDaniels” theory is a remnant of Cutlergate, and notice that the opposite motivation was also used to explain events. The problem with these explanations is that they didn’t comport with the facts. We were neither hurt nor helped by New England since we didn’t make the Cassel deal — although we certainly could have.
At best, the production of conspiracy theories indicates that there’s a strong urge to invent a fantastic explanation to account for events which make observers feel uncomfortable. The conspiracy theory provides a way of reordering reality to bring it back into order. The Cutler issue illustrates this dynamic — the uncomfortable truth that Cutler wouldn’t want to stay as a Bronco demanded (cognitively speaking) an alternative theory, thus the “McDaniels drove Cutler away” theory was born. And, of course, Cook and Cutler played to this dynamic even while Cutler refused to participate in team activities and later requesting a trade, which showed how much staying with the team meant to him. Insidious motivations were ascribed to McDaniels even though repeatedly stated he wanted Cutler on the team.
One thing that should be noted about conspiratorial thinking is how people ‘lock onto’ them even when the facts change. Leon Festinger’s Cognitive Dissonance was explained in When Prophecy Fails, in which an end-of-the-world cult is unfazed when the world doesn’t end at the predicted time. Their belief remained intact, only the date of the apocalypse was changed.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
it's not so far fetched..actually
Belichick has a huge ego and may not be too worried about giving up some backup talent that he can’t use right now to help Josh out. He may also be getting to that point in his career where he thinks about his legacy. More than likely though it’s that he likes Josh and would just as soon make trades with him as anyone else. Seriously doubt we’ll be seeing Brady or Seymour any time soon.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Aug 25, 2009 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you know this because?????
You and Bellicheck are so tight right lol…joking
by vdisciple on Aug 25, 2009 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean, BDB
Here’s a different perspective, just for the heck of it. If you have a 5th round pick, you have an opportunity to take a player who will usually make the team, but generally won’t start. There are exceptions, sure, but that’s a general rule of thumb.
Now, if you have a player that has been on a team of yours, NE in this case, and you know his skillset, your new team could use an upgrade there and you know from having him that he will produce for you, do you take him? Generally speaking, I’d have to at least consider that, and would usually take the deal. He’s a proven commodity, McDaniels sees a specific role for him based on considerable experience and he’s money in the pocket, rather than Door #3.
Draft picks are great. You ultimately build the team via the draft, and we’ll probably trade some guys who won’t start for more picks. Even so – what the Broncos need right now, this year, are players who can make the grade in the NFL. The cupboard was very bare on defense when McD took over the team. Just on that basis, I can see why this would look attractive. I also respect the other opinion, which deals with gaining lots of draft choices. Over the long haul, that’s a very good strategy. However, we’ve got problems right now, and will for a couple more years, in all likelyhood. Proven players are a big advantage when you’re rebuilding.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
BAM
Hit the nail on the head. Love him or hate him or in between, McDaniels is clearly trying to build a team that is going to be competitive immediately using sound strategy and business acumen. If some of his moves seem unorthodox it would be because we Broncos fans have not had the opportunity to see this approach in action.
by TheMastermind on Aug 25, 2009 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
From PFT
The Belichick coach tree continues to share.
One week after the Patriots sent defensive lineman Le Kevin Smith to Denver, the Broncos acquired New England offensive lineman Russ Hochstein for a late-round pick in 2010, according to ESPN’s Adam Schefter.
Hochstein looks like a more significant pickup. He was caught in a numbers game in New England with an influx of draft picks, but the versatile reserve was with the organization since 2003.
He started playoff games during two Super Bowl runs, including Super Bowl XXXVIII against Carolina. He can be a backup in Denver at guard and center
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep,
Bellichick runs the Patriots the same way I play Madden. Stock pile the picks and trade the midlevel talent before their value expires. With enough picks you’re bound to hit a few home runs and the process keeps your lineup young.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Aug 25, 2009 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
asymmetry
Some considerations — we might have picked up players such as Hochstein if released but we’d need a priority claim and we’d still be picking him up too late to allow him a reasonable time to adjust, although learning the offense shouldn’t be a problem but it would be for a player from another team.
We’re young and need experience whereas New England is old and needs youth, who can develop.
The draft drought left us without a veteran nucleus, so our strategy is somewhat different than New England’s. We need the kind of player that is being crowded out of New England’s roster.
BTW — New England drafted OLs in the 2nd, 4th & 5th rounds.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess The Coach whiffed on the Olsen pick. Hey coach, there are teams outside of NE that can serve as our trade partners.
And why use the draft when you can just trade away all our future picks for guys near the end of their rookie deals and in need to being resigned?
I am not a fan of trading away so many future picks. Not at all.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I would say
that falls more on Xanders than McDaniels
I thought I read awhile back that Xanders was the mastermind of the Alphonso Smith trade and McD had little to do with it
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
but why go with fact when you can throw out baseless charges against the coach?
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If true, that is scary and means the Smith trade was entirely about protecting Bolwen’s wallet.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
as an Iowa alum, I hope that Olsen still pans out, he was a stud at Iowa but only 1 piece of the great o-line they had for Greene
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salary Cap, McGeorge
Even if Bowlen were willing to pay A TRILLION DOLLARS in payroll, paying two years of multiple first-rounders would be a strain on the salary cap, which applies to every team in the league, regardless of whether their fans like it.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There will be no salary cap next season.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got you here :)
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, maybe not
That certainly hasn’t been determined yet. GM’s still have to worry about salary cap implications in the case that a new CBA gets worked out.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Aug 25, 2009 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fat chance. This CBA battle is going to turn into a war.
Which makes me really sad BTW. I don’t know if we’ll see NFL football in 2011. I’m not overly hopeful. The owners are going to ask the players to give up a lot because the owners did such a crappy drafting the last deal.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 7:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its is Bowlens...
wallet not yours ;) And he has earned that money as far as I am concerned ;)
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy, Am I or the others crazy?" -Albert Einstein
by Disturbed70 on Aug 25, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't we get a late round pick back from NE
in the Le Kevin deal? That would mean we had an extra 7. If we used that, it’s all good.
by JeffG on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you guys don’t see the potential risks in continually trading away future draft picks, I’m speechless.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course they are risks
I’m definitely not disagreeing with you. I hate seeing us give away draft picks, but if it’s for a guy that can be a proven starter, has playoff experience, then that’s not all bad considering a draft pick has potential to not pan out
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or become a Payton Hillis or TD.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
There is a low risk-high reward with those low draft picks. I guess you can consider this move as mitigating the potential risk of a draft pick by not panning out by picking up someone that has already proven to be a solid starter
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
After watching Brady and Cassel get knocked around plenty over the past two years and seeing Brady getting knocked around again last week vs Cincy, that Pat line impresses me ZERO.
Not many people believe the Pats have a good O-line and they are right.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
McDaniels made it VERY clear he was here to win . . .
and win NOW! Building through the draft would imply that he was in a rebuilding phase. IMO, he is following through on what he told us . . . building a team to win NOW. Unlike you, I am not concerned we gave a low pick away . . . you have to weigh the risk-reward. I think this rewards us now.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he is willing to mortgage the future in an attempt to win today. Maybe you are okay with this approach, I’m not.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you’re on record as saying that you’ll be in the long line of folks yelling for his head if they don’t succeed this year.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got that right.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, right, but at the same time, you’re angry they’re trading future draft picks to get better this year? I guess that really says it all.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sentiments EXACTLY Chi
Nothing will ever make McGeorge happy.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We were 8-8 last season with a young team that suffered a ton of injuries. With better health and more experience, we were already positioned to win in 2009 so yes, I expect it. But I want Denver to be good in 2010 and 2011 and 2012 and 2013 as well. I’m not sure McDaniels cares because he knows he might not be around.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
You don’t know if it’s McDaniels or Xanders the one pulling the trigger…
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
McD said it was him when we traded for LeKevin Smith. I assumed at the time, but was proven correct.
I’m going to connect the dots again.
BTW: I hope it was McDaniels making these calls. Xanders is a no body until he proves himself – which he has not. McDaniels had his paws all over the NE success.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mom McGeorge
On another thread about the impressions of the Seahawks game you identified a problem in the depth of the O line. People jumped all over you for that comment yet you have been proved right. Not the first time you have been right either incidentally but let’s keep that quiet for now
The hole has now been plugged by someone who seems at face value to be serviceable. There has to be a price for that which ever way you look at it. A 7th round draft pick isn’t such a heavy price to pay. It is hardly a gamble as a such a pick would normally be
Just relax and bask in the glory that someone has at least acknowledged you made a good call in the first place..
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on Aug 25, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop! It will go straight to his head.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
But it won’t affect his brain now will it?
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on Aug 25, 2009 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Disregard for future draft picks
appears to be a troubling trend with the new staff. If you look at the teams that are successful year after year, I think you’ll find they are constantly building through the draft.
I hope this pattern does not continue because I also fear the long-term consequences to our team if it does.
Can someone who has kept track figure out what picks we still have in next year’s draft?
by Elway's Ghost on Aug 25, 2009 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you are referring to PIT and NE...
These teams have established systems in place on both defense and offense with a core full of players that have been there MULTIPLE seasons in those systems. We have just changed both our defense AND offense systems, and have few players with real experience in these or even similar systems.
Regarding this trend, I doubt it will continue much past next season (2010-11 season), when we will have some continuity in the playing roster (remember we have hardly any players on the team from before 2006).
by Timimus on Aug 25, 2009 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then hes trying to win NOW and you are bagging him now. McG...why dont you discuss everything BUT McD. It is clear you cant be fair on this subject!
I love some fo your posts but your consistent McDaniels bagging is wearing. No matter what he does, including winning this year, you are against, yet you will call for his head regardless. MAKES NO SENSE and shows you up as being senseless.
I would appreciate you a lot more if you steer away from McD.
We all know you hate him and want him fired for reasons we cant grasp.
Other subjects, have at it, as you bring good points……but your arguments on McD are laughable!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Aug 25, 2009 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
THAAANNNKK YOOOUU!
I couldn’t have said it better. Boydy . . . you are THE MAN!
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see...
We got Le Kevin Smith and Russ Hochstein for a 5. And you are complaining? I’m speechless.
by JeffG on Aug 25, 2009 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
the past 2 years?
In 2007 the Pats surrendered 21 sacks, the fewest for the franchise in 30 years. Last year a lot of those sacks could be attributed to Cassel’s learning curve and holding the ball too long. NE’s OL has consistently been one of the best over the last decade.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pats O-line has really slipped the last year +.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you were wrong?
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is that?
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
quoting you
After watching Brady and Cassel get knocked around plenty over the past two years
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you mean, I was including 2009 in with my two years. Not really fair on my part.
The Pats O-line was not good in 2008 and they don’t look like they will be good in 2009 either. It’s a weak point on their roster.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
judging from the stats above
it seems like this guy the majority of his starts b/w 2003-2007, FWIW
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he didn’t get much PT on a bad line in 2008. What does that say?
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going from Tom Brady to Matt Cassel didn’t affect the line play?
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
QB abd OL chemistry..
takes time…it tokk like 4 weeks for Cassel to come into his own thiwh the OL last season.
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy, Am I or the others crazy?" -Albert Einstein
by Disturbed70 on Aug 25, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good read the Boston papers. They are not high on their own D-line.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
because the media is always right?
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Proven starter?
Not how I would charatcerize Hoch’s performance… I think him starting proved he’s a okay and versatile backup, not a “proven starter”.
by cjfarls on Aug 25, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we SAY we don't see the potential risks...
will you REALLY be speechless?
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on Aug 25, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point — trading picks like that makes me nervous, too.
Still, if you consider that Moreno, Ayers, Smith, McBath, Quinn, Bruton, Olsen, McKinley, Brandstater and Baker are all likely to make the team (I’m guessing no on PED and Schleuter), that’s 10 rookies this year. Add Clady, Royal, JMFW, Hillis, Woodyard and Kern from last year, and that’s about 1/3 of the final roster drafted in 2008 or later.
There’s probably a limit to how many kids and developmental prospects the team can stick in the pipeline. If I had to guess, I’d say the plan was to restock for volume in 2009, and to draft more selectively in 2010.
I’d also wager that the Broncos recoup one or two late-round picks by trading away potential spare parts over the next few weeks. Anyway, we’ll see, and I’ll shut up now.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 11:43 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Good odds on Robinson, too
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Nate Swift
I bet he makes the PS (assuming he clears waivers) if he doesn’t make the 53.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 2010 draft is said to be a great draft with a lot of expected depth. Most teams are trying to stock up on picks for 2010, but Denver seems to want nothing to do with this draft.
McDaniels and Xanders are not playing this smart IMO. If fact, these trades reek of overestimating the preseason roster and some win now desperation.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Just wait until Brandon Marshall gets traded for a slew of 3rd 4th and 5th round picks ;)
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see the same thing . . .
I think McDaniels has a plan, and BM is part of it.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
regardless
I wouldn’t miss Marshall as much now but it’s still not advisable to add more youth on top of youth.
I’m sure we’ll find some use for the late picks — and we have lately — but our strategy should still involve adding more veteran talent. And we’ll probably add more next year through free agency.
My point is simple — we’re already very young! High picks are still useful but later picks become less useful as we ‘fill out’ our roster. Cap-wise, we can add significant veteran FA talent next year, unlike this year. Given our current situation, we’re better off by adding veteran depth. IMO — the objective should be to solidify the team, and we can worry about upgrading later. The turnaround time on a scheme switch is 2 years, and much of added personnel needs to be veterans in order to avoid the shock of relying too heavily on young players before they’re ready.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 8:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Denver has a pick in every round of next year's draft but 5
…and there’s a possibility they could pick up more here or there.
How is that a sign that they “want nothing to do with” the 2010 draft?
Thing is, they also want to win now. They are striking a balance.
by JeffG on Aug 25, 2009 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
spot on.
Take my advice, I'm not using it !!!
by grind_core on Aug 25, 2009 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add Barrett and Larsen from 2008 also..
They are really likely to be on the roster
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Aug 25, 2009 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, how could I forget?
If our cumulative projections pan out, that’ll be 19 members of the final roster drafted in 2008 and 2009. Wow.
by Chibronx on Aug 25, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a very young team
McGeorge is just hyperventilating again. What have we given up? Two low round picks next year? For two experienced players?
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, didn't we get one of those picks in the first trade?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love this move
OL depth? Check – specifically our 2 oldest positions of G and C.
Fullback depth? Check – maybe even a starter in that role, especially at the goalline.
Knows the system already? Check.
It’s a small move, but we just made the team incrementally better.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 11:44 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Kudos
I too like it. Xanders is really doing a good job with the personnel pickups, imo. I am only slightly concerned about the loss of a late round draft pick. I would rather have a proven commodity than a complete mystery.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Payton Hillis, Larsen and TD were complete mysteries as late round picks.
Build thru the draft.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, and we can list the busts too
proven commodity with the ability to play this year > chance at a player that might work out someday
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No big deal when the low picks don’t work. It’s cheap labor.
But when you hit a late round home run, you get a guy with Payton Hillis production for pennies on the dollar.
This is exactly how great teams are built and built to last. By drafting well from round 1 thru 7.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peyton Hillis, yes, Herb Haygood, no
We just got a player who can contribute to the team this year.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 25, 2009 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true
But I think it’s a bit early to be hitting the panic button. Before the LeKevin Smith trade, Denver had a pick in every round next year. The first trade with the Pats was a 5th rounder for Smith and a late rounder. Now it’s a late rounder for a Hochstein. So, basically, it’s two players familiar with Denver new systems for a 5th round pick.
I’d say that isn’t such a bad deal, particularly if both players can be examples for the younger players (both on the roster and those drafted next year).
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
by Disco_Stu on Aug 25, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
again,
spot on.
Take my advice, I'm not using it !!!
by grind_core on Aug 25, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing The Lottery
The draft is like playing the lottery. Buy a $1 ticket and you could conceivably hit the jackpot. But the odds are that you don’t. Compare that to trading a $1 lottery ticket for $2 TODAY and I’m OK with that. Late round draft picks more often than not do NOT stay in the league. It is the rare exception that excels. I don’t know the details, but I’m guessing we gave NE back the draft pick we got from them in the Le Kevin trade.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
re: Hillis and Larsen
Payton Hillis, Larsen and TD were complete mysteries as late round picks.
Build thru the draft. – McGeorge
Both the MLB and FB positions are in low demand lately, which explains their availability — for the most part. They were hardly mysteries, I was aware of both of them before the draft.
I wish every draft looked like 2008’s but it’s not the norm. We kept 8 out of 9 (and added the 9th from the PS later) along with 3 UDFAs (Kern, Polumbus, Woodyard), besides the FAs we added throughout the season. Kansas City topped us, on the strength of an enormous draft class, but how’d they do?
Too much youth is a problem. And we can’t keep on adding youth and expect near-term success. New England has been very successful at converting depth back into draft picks but that’s the catch — they have the depth, and willing trade partners who will give them picks for it.
The cognitive trap which people fall into is that they treat exceptions as general rules. Both Hillis (who was undervalued) and Larsen turned out well but the average for their pick position isn’t good. And we can’t take advantage of the low demand for their positions again, short of crowding their positions.
Over the past 10 years (2000-09), only four inside or middle linebackers have been drafted in the first round of the draft — the only position with less first-round picks over that time is fullbacks with none (not including punters/kickers).
The reason for this is because unless a prospect can play all three downs as an inside linebacker or can rush the passer and create big plays, teams are waiting to the later rounds to fill a need at the position.
Over the past two years, only 15 inside linebackers have been selected over the entire draft. In 2002, just two were taken in the first four rounds while only four were chosen in the first four rounds in 2006. In the 2009 draft, two very good players James Laurinaitis (Ohio State) and Rey Maualuga (USC) did not get picked until the second round by the Rams (35th overall) and Bengals (38th), respectively.
I wonder what former great Hall of Fame linebackers like Dick Butkus, Sam Huff, Jack Lambert, Willie Lanier, Ray Nitschke, and Joe Schmidt think of this present trend. – Gil Brandt, NFL.com – Aug. 6, 09
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I am more sold on McDaniels and what he can bring to the table than I am on Xanders….
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too.
McDaniels comes from a winning program that he has his finger prints on.
Xanders is a nobody that kind of lucked in his job.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also saw this about McDaniels today from Adam Schefter
MillsLane25 in Colorado Springs, Colo.: I feel like Josh McDaniels, given his, um, entertaining start to his tenure in Denver, is setting himself up to not be allowed to struggle. Say the Broncos are 4-12 this year (could happen, sadly) and improve to 8-8 next year. You bring in a new coach, a roster overhaul takes place, it happens again. Is there any reason to hire a guy anymore if you won’t commit to, really, about 4 years? (Especially when they could be drafting a quarterback next April.)
MillsLane25: The one thing we’ve seen in this league is that, outside of Bill Belichick, Mike Tomlin and Tom Coughlin, there’s no coach who is automatically safe from one year to the next. Saying that, I think McDaniels will survive this year, next year and well beyond. He’s getting a lot of heat now, but someone who knows coaches well predicted to me that McDaniels is going to be one of the greatest NFL coaches ever. Strong words, I know, and we’ll see. But I think he’s going to be a real good one.
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if he is not?
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your pessimism never ceases to amaze…
by AltReal7 on Aug 25, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The unquestioning optimism at MHR makes me feel the same way.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
To provide sanity where it is needed.
LOL.
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that’s your idea of sanity, I’d rather be insane…LOL!
by AltReal7 on Aug 25, 2009 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanity is not unwavering negativity regarding our head coach...thats just annoying!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Aug 25, 2009 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Becomes he loves being the pessimist . . . it is in his nature.
Unfortunately, he looks at us that like this move as MHR optimism. Sad part is, its just good football sense. McGeorge, unfortunately, will never SEE or ADMIT to it.
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
we’ll have to wait and see, but at least it is encouraging to hear people who are in the league say positive things about him
by Bustafluff on Aug 25, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter
It’s just a nice quote about our new HC. Take it or leave it. It doesn’t change anything, but it is encouraging to know that not everybody thinks this guy is an idiot.
by solace on Aug 25, 2009 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if he is?
This is like a five year old asking why? everytime you answer one of their questions.
by nvjeanie on Aug 25, 2009 6:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Xanders
Let’s get one thing straight. Xanders is the man in charge of personnel, NOT McD. Bowlen saw the problem of having Shanahan in charge of everything and deliberately changed the setup. Does McD have input? Of course! Does he have the final say? No. McD does not have Shanny’s powers and we should all remember that. McD is the coach of the team, not the master.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Xanders is an accountant, not a talent scout. He did not make the decision to make this latest trade. McD did, and then probably went to X to work out the details.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry but you're wrong
Xanders spent 14 years with Atlanta as manager of player personnel, among other positions. He also played football at Florida State. You seem to dismiss him as merely an accountant. You also presume that McD made the decision. I respectfully disagree. My understanding is that Xanders controls the Broncos organization and McD controls the team. All decisions regarding player personnel are ultimately up to Xanders. It has been reported many times that Xanders and McD work closely to determine the best course for the team. That is how it should be, imo. Xanders has been in the NFL far longer than McD and all of the players. It is a mistake to dismiss Xanders as merely a clerk carrying out orders.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bravo . . . well said!
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
I still think Xanders spends his time bean counting, not in the film room evaluating players. And I’d be willing to bet a lot that it was McD and not X that decided to trade for Smith and Hochstein, having spent the last few years on the same team with them.
But the important thing is that they continue to work well together.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's his Job
It’s his job to evaluate players. College, Pro, front office, etc.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow...
Endzone gives you great factual info regarding Xanders experience and your response is “Whatever. I still think…”?
That really reeks of “Don’t confuse me with the facts.”
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on Aug 25, 2009 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Here’s the “great factual info” that Endzone provided: “Xanders spent 14 years with Atlanta as manager of player personnel, among other positions. He also played football at Florida State.” That’s not exactly informing us that he was a Bill Parcells kind of guy. In fact, it tells me nothing about Xanders. What is a manager of player personnel? The guy that does what Parcells does? And what does “among other positions” mean? How many years was he doing “other positions” besides being a Parcell’s type of person?
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Confusing
It is easy to not distinguish between the role of a HC and a GM. Especially after all the years we had with Shanahan. But there is a very clear difference. Parcells is now the GM of the Dolphins, NOT the HC. (Well, OK, he’s the “Executive Vice President of Football Operations”). So, yes. Xanders is a Bill Parcells kind of guy. Of course anyone can look up the info on the internet.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excues me
But I can distinguish between the role of a HC and a GM. But, regardless of titles, every organization in the NFL is different. Bill Parcells makes the decisions on player acquisition for the Dolphins because he is Bill Parcells. I’m also sure that he discusses these issues thoroughly with Coach Sparano.
None of that tells us what goes on with the Broncos. If you want to believe that Xanders makes the decisions on player acquisition based on his title, go ahead and think that. I for one think that McD made the decision to make the trade for two former Patriots, with whom he had worked and about whom he therefore had knowledge regarding their abilities.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Understanding
Is that Xanders and McD hold equivalent titles with different responsibilities and both report directly to Bowlen. Xanders plays the lead role, both at the college and pro levels, in player acquisition decisions. No acquisition is or would be made without consulting with McD but McD has absolutely no power to acquire a player on his own. As Bowlen said, there will be no “ties” meaning there is no 50/50 vote. My further interpretation is that if there is a major dispute between Xanders and McD that Bowlen would make the final decision. I said as much above that Xanders and McD work closely to determine the best course for the team.
I am not asserting that title determines decisions. However, in any large business organization the legal department does not make decisions for the comptroller, the Chief of the Army does not make decisions for the Chief of the Navy, etc. But they should work together synergistically for the betterment of the organization.
We should not diminish the importance of the GM.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't dismiss the importance of the GM
All I’ve been saying is that it was McD that decided he wanted Smith and Hochstein. Sure, he had to clear it with X, but X’s role was to do the math, not evaluate whether or not Smith and Hochstein were good players that would fit with what McD is trying to accomplish on the field.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
To me, Xanders role is to evaluate players and sign them AS IF McD won’t be with the team next year or the years thereafter. I do not doubt McD brought the players to Xanders and they discussed them together. But it is definitely NOT just about the math or the contracts.
As an example, I believe that BMarh’s beef with the Broncos is not with McD but with Xanders and Bowlen. Cutler’s beef with the Broncos was with McD and Bowlen. McD’s concern is to put the best players on the field and BMarsh may (notice I said may) be one of the best players. Xanders controls the organization pocketbook and looks at an injured, recalcitrant, unprepared player and thinks twice about cutting a big check. I may be wrong. Maybe BMarsh and Cutler were both concerned about their individual stats suffering under McD. Maybe they were both miffed about money (Xanders): BMarsh because he thinks he’s a star and Cutler because they were paying Simms more than him. Could be a lot of reasons.
All I’m saying is don’t diminish Xanders’ role. He is Bowlen’s right hand man, not McD.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
BMarsh’s beef is definitely with Xanders and Bowlen, not McD. No argument there. But that is totally different from who decided that acquiring Smith and Hochstein for a 5th would be a positive move for the team. And I am not trying to diminish Xanders’ role, but it seems you are trying to diminish McDaniels’ role when you say he is not one of Bowlens’ right hand men.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 6:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right Hand
Even Bowlen has said Xanders is his right hand man. And Yes. I am diminishing McD’s role. His role is to coach the team.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 6:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
What difference does it make?
Whether or not McD went to Xanders or Xanders thought they would be a good addition to the Broncos Organization, they are in it for the same thing, to get the Broncos back to the play-offs and the Superbowl.
If these guys can contribute to that, who cares who initiated the trades.
Sorry I can't work on Sundays...it's against my religion
and what is your faith?
BRONCOS FOOTBALL
by nvjeanie on Aug 25, 2009 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nicely summarized, DH
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about this move
is if we have no injuries on the o line this year like last year. Then he will be pretty much unused except for goaline situations or short yardage at fullback. And im sure we could have molded one of our offensive lineman into that.
"He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life". -Muhammad Ali
Celtics-17 rings, 18 on the way
Im drowning in all this Kool-aid
by BDAWKisaBRONC on Aug 25, 2009 11:55 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The idea that Xanders is a nobody is bizarre
I’ve spent a little time looking into his background, and that’s at odds with everything I’ve read
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 12:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Examples?
Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.
by McGeorge on Aug 25, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back at you McGeorge . . .
What are YOUR examples that prove he is a nobody?
"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes
by HSFBCoach on Aug 25, 2009 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with Coach on this one, McG
The honest fact is that I have no idea what you’re basing that statement on, so there’s really no point in responding. If you’d be a little more specific, I’ll take a look at what you have to say
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing wrong
with adding a little more depth. Who cares if he played for the Pats. He plays for us now. I so can not wait for the Cincy game just to finally be able to exhale, be it for better or worse.
Take my advice, I'm not using it !!!
by grind_core on Aug 25, 2009 12:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Xanders and 2010 draft
Brian Xanders has been with the team since 2007. Pat Bowlen brought him in from Atlanta when (IMO) Pat started to vision some changes. Brian worked with Mike Goodman dealing with contracts. Since 2007 the contracts for players have been in the Broncos favor not the agents/players. Remember all the ‘dead money’?
IMO Brian Xanders has been as improtant to the organization as any front office person.
Remember that the 2010 season will be an uncapped season (unless a new CBA is signed) which means that ALL agents will ask for the moon on ALL 2010 contracts. WHY NOT. I see Denver being ahead of the curve and positioning for that time. IMO Kuper, Scheffler, Dumervil, and Orton will be with a new contract during this year. Maybe Marshall too. I see Denver playing hardball in 2010 meaning, this is OUR scale not the NFL’s.
Interesting huh?
by DLMyers on Aug 25, 2009 12:39 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, DL
Fair points. Atlanta, during the time that Xanders was there and was moving steadily up the ladder, went from a terrible team to a very good one.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second..
Wasn’t the O-Line mentioned yesterday as a point of concern?
The team goes and adds depth to the O-Line, with a low-cost player that has played in nearly 100 games, has started playoff games and won a Super Bowl and this is a bad thing because we gave up a (likely)7th round pick.
That settles it. This is nothing to do with Kool-Aid or Reality. Plain and simple, some people want this “administration” to fail. Period. ?
-TSG
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by John Bena on Aug 25, 2009 12:39 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
No waiting period. BOOM! We go out and address the OLine depth. What could be more clear or effective?
Some people pompously assert ignorant positions just because they arrogantly know that their opinion is more important and clearly better than anyone else in the world, wait for their just accolades, and then pout and flame everybody (especially “The Coach” , nobodies and MHR posters) when no-one agrees. Tiresome.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think both sides of the argument have done this =)
by Todd Jewell on Aug 25, 2009 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt - McGeorge himself said
After reading the thoughts of a bunch of Bronco fans that don’t like McDaniels, our biggest concerns are things like lack of depth on the O-line
He made a valid point and there was some issues with the performance of the O-Line and the depth. Obviously the coaches evaluations of the game tape also came to the same conclusion. Rather than say “The coach identified a weakness and addressed the issue”, it is “Oh no we traded a (probable) 7th round pick, the coach is an idiot.” Some fans just complain to complain.
I think it was a good move to address a need to help the team win this year. A proven player than knows the system and can come in and perform on day one. We, in a likely hood (as some have mentioned above), gave back the 7th round pick the Pat’s gave us in the previous trade for Smith. How is this bad?!?! We still have a 7th round pick next year!!! The probability of a 7th round pick making the team is very small, let alone two picks. Sure you hit on a great upside player every so often, but the likely hood that they pan out is very small.
Let’s take a step back and give credit where credit is due
by DBronx777 on Aug 25, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Credit for Plagiarism
Reading the quote, it was not McG that came up with the thought. He just ripped it off other people. I distinctly remember numerous people commenting on the Oline problems before McG. And McG had the audacity to describe the only ones who saw it as a bunch of fans that don’t like McDaniels. Boorish, pompous and tiresome.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that many others posted this
but my point was he said it in a comment yesterday on the Orton post by Guru and then today is crying about addressing the O-Line depth. So hypocritical.
by DBronx777 on Aug 25, 2009 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
On and the credit is for McD addressing the OLine...
by DBronx777 on Aug 25, 2009 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Bena
Addressed that in this article:
Two problem areas for the Broncos coming into camp were perceived to be depth along the Offensive and Defensive Lines. It appears the Broncos have addressed both in separate deals with the Patriots.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.....damned if you do, damned if you dont Guru.....I am SO perplexed by some attitudes on here at the moment!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Aug 25, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spot on Guru
I have pointed this out myself further up the page during the discussion/argument about the cost of the acquisition. It seems to be a prime example of needing to be right at any price with some people.
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on Aug 25, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not forget...
You can give away late round draft picks for low risk/high reward players in an effort to improve short term. After all, we’re talking about men who already have some experience under their belts and can get into the rotation immediately.
And if that makes you nervous i get it – but you can acquire late round draft picks just as easily. If you’re worried that the Broncos are going to put themselves in a position where they have too few draft picks next year it is a valid concern, but if we are able to think of it here, odds are the guys whose jobs are going to depend on it have thought of it too.
I don’t know how they plan to address the issue in the future but if we’ve learned anything about the New Regime it would be that they DO have a plan. Maybe it’ll work and maybe it won’t. But they DO have one.
I for one, am going to see how it pans out before I get too worried. I am all for taking some measured risks if it improves the team. Worst they can do is just miss the playoffs AGAIN, and I’ll cut him that slack as a first year coach.
Now the second year…
by TheMastermind on Aug 25, 2009 12:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
another thought
is that the Broncos were using an old light guard as the backup center in place of Weigmann, Ben Hamilton. Ben has not played center since college and is only 286 lbs, kinda light for today.
This is a good move and may put Kory on bubble orf PS.
by DLMyers on Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
….Hamilton played center his rookie year (2001) with the Broncos, after Nalen got hurt. Hamilton played about half the season at center and did very well.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
besides blocking fullback
he also plays as a “heavy” blocker on STs return units.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 25, 2009 12:58 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I did not know this
Thanks for the information. It provides a little more justification for the move.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on Aug 25, 2009 4:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This seems to make a lot of sense.
I don’t know much about him, but:
1. He knows the system, so he should be able to step right in from day 1. Also, he is a known commodity.
2. He can play center. I am still not sure who our backup center is. If it is Hamilton, that is not good for Denver because that means if Wiegmann goes down, Denver actually has to change out players at two positions. This may mean that Hamilton would stay at guard. I really believe in the importance of stability on the OL.
3. His goal line/blocking TE and FB skills should add a heavy jumbo dimension to the offense. Also, if Quinn struggles, he can fill the gap in some situations until Quinn develops. He also save a roster spot, because now you don’t have to keep a fourth TE. Although, I still hope Putzier sticks, he would be handy if Scheff goes down with an injury. I will be surprised if he does.
by Orange Crush II on Aug 25, 2009 1:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone have the latest list of 2010 draft picks the
Broncos have? Just so we can at least see the current list that some people are debating…
I do recall that Denver gained a 5th round pick for trading Montrae Holland to Dallas. They traded one away, too, but still have a 5th rounder as far as I recall. From what I can tell they still have about the regular number of picks next year, with all the back and forth, minus one or so?
by underdog on Aug 25, 2009 1:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Patriots Now Broncos
Let’s see if I get this right:
Le Kevin Smith – DE – backup in NE
Daniel Graham – TE (probably shouldn’t count since he’s been with the team a long time)
Lonnie Paxton – LS starter
Russ Hochstein – G – backup in NE
Jabar Gaffney – WR – useful in NE
Lamont Jordan – RB (only played in NE last year)
Other trades:;
Champ Bailey – WA
Correll Buckhalter – PHI
Brian Dawkins – PHI
Andra Davis – CLE
Ronald Fields – SF
Andre Goodman – MIA
Renaldo Hill – MIA
Brandon Gorin – STL
Kyle Orton – CHI
Chris Simms – TEN
Darrell Reid – IND
Casey Weigman – KC – C
Antwain Spann – BUF – DB – good ST player
It does appear that we are getting most of our current trades with NE.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 1:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What's your point?
Out of all the players you listed, only 4 were acquired by trade.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just Thinking Out Loud
No real point except that we have acquired more NE players this year than from other teams percentage-wise.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not surprising
Good coaches find talent that matches their scheme… it makes sense that NE talent would match McD’s scheme, assuming the scheme is similar to what he was running in NE…
by cjfarls on Aug 25, 2009 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely put, cj
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this constitute
“Hitting the Panic Button” on the offensive line now as LeKevin was for the defensive line?
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
by Kfustud on Aug 25, 2009 2:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Neither constituted a "panic buton" approach
But more likely a build depth with known quantities to prepare for the long season and protect against injury approach.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Aug 25, 2009 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jarvis Moss
Will Moss make the roster? Seems like he’s running 3rd team these days.
by _Atwater27 on Aug 25, 2009 3:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Terms of Deal
I just watched today’s McDanials presser over at the team’s website, and coach said the trade was for the same 7th round pick they received in the Smith trade (“we just borrowed it for a few days”). So, we traded a 2010 fifth round pick for two players that provide solid depth and will likely contribute this year. I’m cool with that.
by ButteBronco on Aug 25, 2009 3:54 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Sounds good to me
But I wouldn’t be surprised to see Smith do more than provide depth, and Hochstein do some damage as a FB and blocking TE.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, bradley
You know, trading one 5th round pick for two players with a solid shot at the roster, one of whom could end up starting sound suspiciously like good team management. Not to ruffle anyone’s feathers, you understand….;-)
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 25, 2009 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Outstanding
TWO proven players for ONE 7th round draft pick. WOW. Xanders, McD and Bowlen did a great job on this one, imo.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
the bottom line was the two players for our 5th. Read ButteBroncos comment a little more closely.
...because sometimes your inner cowboy needs to yodel.
by bradley on Aug 25, 2009 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
my bad. Still, two players for one 5th round pick. Still sounds very good.
by Endzone on Aug 25, 2009 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
terms
Yes, or you could view the terms as a 6th and 7th, as far as their value according to the trade value chart — which may sound better or worse than a single 5th. I mention it because I keep track of these little details.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
guard pulls
consider also that mcdaniels wants to use guard pulls occasionally. perhaps he didn’t feel comfortable with certain techniques that from some of the starters. versatility is something he harks upon quite often!
by Pierre Coghill on Aug 25, 2009 4:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a more experienced Chad Mustard!
I’ll miss cutting the Mustard. Hope things go well for him!
by MakeCents on Aug 25, 2009 5:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
teaching school
Chad was always prepared for life after football.
"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas
by Colinski on Aug 25, 2009 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
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