MHR University - The 2009 Systems Begin to Take Shape

Something meaningful to read to take the attention from B-Marsh. As always, great work.

I like the new logo, and I like the article. I’m still a level 2 fan, someday, maybe in 5-10 years I can hit that level 3. I figure it’s a bit like Malcolm Gladwell says in Outliers, might take 10,000 hours to get good at something. HT, I think you’ve spent your 10,000 hours :)

The thread was started the other day about the DP and how it’s changed. Articles like this are the differentiating factor. Forget that MHR has better opinions than the DP, they both have opinions and news. But nobody learns from the DP and many other news sources or blogs. We learn from MHR, just like we can learn from other great places like NFP.

Keep up the great work HT.

I think I’m somewhere between levels 2 and 3. Admittedly, I have learned from Madden quite a bit. It has made me more aware, in simple terms, of what is happening on the field. I think you are right on in your theory that we are still in the “trying new things” phase. I have questioned why we haven’t ran more, but it makes sense that the running game is probably the facet of our game that needed the least amount of work. We know what we have in our backs and our o-line. I think this preseason has been all about KO and the passing game, the real variable in all of this. Our defense has looked much better at times, and just as porous at times, though usually with the 2nd and 3rd stringers. I just can’t wait until it is all for real.

I speculated in the offseason, from some McDaniels comments about those guys almost always going forward, that that’s what it would functionally be. SlowWhiteGuy had the same thought, and wrote a nice post about it.

The guys are basically stand-up 7-techniques, the way they’ve being used, and I have been pleased with how the bunch of them have looked so far.

was part of my wedding [we had a violinist]

I have been reading MHR since the beginning of the year and just joined. I want to let you know how much I appreciate the work that you put into MHR University. Reading your articles, as well as posts and comments from others at MHR, has taught me an incredible amount about football. I didn’t think it was possible to enjoy watching games any more than I did, but it’s so much better when you know what to look for.

Anyway, a big thanks to everyone at MHR and keep up the great work!

Do we hav 4 or 3 down linemen? And how exactly are our LB’s lined up in it? I’m askin cuz I’m from NJ and can’t catch any of the games so far

But visity here allllll the time.

Articles like this are a major reason why. Please please please keep posting MHR-U, and know your work and efforts are very much appreciated!

rec’d and awesome as always.

I only get to visit that stage when I see something bad unfolding. :P

I asked you that question…not Guru. And if you meant me, then how do you figure I am a brain trust? Are you mad?! lol

Great post, enjoyed the read.

after u mentioned the (possible) assignments of the DB’s to pass dedicated duties, and leaving the front seven to stop the run themselves, isn’t it a risk to play with only 2 linebackers in the 5-2 formation you mentioned?

Thanks so much – I love putting these into the Bookmark for Football Schemes and taking some time to review the vast store of information that you and SWG have been developing for us. Can’t express how much I appreciate it – your work was the reason I visited MHR for the 1st time, and it never has gotten any less exciting. What a great article. I look forward to the next addition(s)!

is being asked to model certain techniques as a teaching tool for the new DBs?

And as always, it seems the more you teach me, the more I want to know.

Rec’d…..I love when people start talking about a higher power and then mention the coach…..I couldn’t agree more. I’ve learned so much reading your stuff, SWG, and the other teachers at MHR…..this site is a great blessing for many people like me!

The thing that I think makes the art of watching football so fascinating is getting inside the psyche of the players and the coaches. The emotional part of the game, in my opinion is where the “art of football” lies. The coach’s ability to harness his team’s emotions, motivate them, focus them….these are the artistic sides of the game and the beauty to behold when watching teams compete on the gridiron. When a coach understands the emotional side of the game and how that effects his X’s and O’s, then you have someone special. Understanding the emotional side doesn’t come from knowledge though, it comes from wisdom and experience. I think we have that man in Josh McD……well, all signs are still a go and I have much hope.

I LOVE your articles and like most good things in life, they always leave me wanting more. Keep up the great work!
P.S. I’m very interested in the ILB position and how the 5-2 changes their role. Fire- zone blitzing, TED blocking with the OLB dropping back, etc.

Thanks again HT. I don’t know where I fit in the stages, probably all three at various times during the game. What I really enjoy is the contest between offense and defense each play trying to guess what the other is going to do and countering it. There are the feints and distractions, different attacks off the same motion or formation, the constant testing of weaknesses, the personnel mixes and ultimately the execution of the design. I get tingles just thinking about the regular season!

Maybe you could send MHRU to some of the MSM football experts. You just can’t get this kind of stuff any where else. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.

I was having trouble deciding what to call the 2 outside linemen since they are on the line. They call them OLB’s but if there is DE on either side of the NT then the 2 outside guys can’t be DE 3&4 so what would you call them I said to myself…Self there must be a new terminalogy to fit the need. Then you said DG Defensive Guard, brilliant and my question is to you sir is; Did they have DG’s back in the 50’s & 60’s because if my finite little mind serves me right I remember such a term? Thanks for the education.

Absolutely Gorgeous.

You rock as always. Great read. Rec’d.

Breath of Fresh Air. Thanks, HT.

I can’t tell what the defense is doing. They will line up with anywhere from three to five men with their hand on the ground and two to four standing up. They move a great deal.Sometimes from as much as a three to a five technique. Personnel does not seem to have anything to do with it as you can see DOOM doing anything from run-stuff to covering a RB out of the backfield. We change and mix personnel nearly every play. It is nearly imnpossible to predict what they will do from a down and distance perspective either. They could be in a 3-4 on 1st and 10 and they could be in a very 5-2 looking formation on 3rd and 10. I just lok oat the defense and marvel and wait for you guys to write something the next day.

I think this defense will be extremely difficult to plan for. This will hide some of the “weaknesses” discussed above. We will give up the occasional big play. We will make some critical stops with perhaps inferior personnel.

I can’t wait to see your comments ht after the Cincinnati game.

Go Broncos!!

btw i must be about a .65 fan

Respect. Thanks.

Love, matt

You and SlowWhiteGuy (thanks for the link!) have made me think. SWG wrote that Wilkinson, in response to the Model-T (oops, I mean T-formation), created the modern linebacker by having his two defensive guards stand up and move back. (Presumably at some point somebody’s defensive center did the same and became the first middle linebacker.) Then he says:

Fairbanks made further adjustments to the system. First he had his defensive ends stand up so they could read the backfield better and drop off into coverage. Later he replaced the DEs with LBs and the modern 3-4 was born.

But he soon adds, “I don’t actually think the Broncos will run a 5-2 defense.” Rather, running “a variation of the old 5-2 for their base” is “a useful way to think about it.” Now you say, “Denver is not playing a true 3-4 at all. They are playing a true 5-2.” And you explain:

1. The base alignment is a 5-2 because there are 5 guys on the line.
2. In terms of personnel, the outermost players on the line are DEs said to be converting to OLBs, not “3-4 LBs” playing up to the line.

I realize this is just labels but labels are about logic and logic is interesting. So from SlowWhiteGuy’s remarks it seems, at least at first glance, that the defensive guards become linebackers by virtue of where they moved to, whereas the defensive ends were replaced by guys who were already linebackers. So, again at first glance, the first two were linebackers by virtue of where they were and the latter two by virtue of who they were. But in the latter case where did those linebackers who replaced the defensive ends come from? How did they become linebackers?

Now whereas SlowWhiteGuy seems ambivalent about whether it’s a 5-2 look, has 5-2 elements, or that it being a variation of the old 5-2 is “a useful way to think about it,” you say emphatically that we’re “playing a true 5-2.” That makes me wonder just what the difference is between a defense that looks like a 5-2 and one that’s “a true 5-2.” For you it appears to be a combination of placement — “five guys on the line” — and terminology — “DEs said to be converting to OLBs, not ‘3-4’ LBs’ playing up to the line.” For me the first argument is more convincing than the second, because after all the Broncos say they’re going to be OLBs, not that they’ll be OLBs only if and when they’re playing off the line. But of course what the Broncos say doesn’t make it gospel, either.

My own suspicion, but I’ll wait to see what you and hopefully SlowWhiteGuy have to say, is that if all five players generally rush the passer it’s in effect a 5-2, but if usually at least one of the two outside players drops into coverage it’s a 3-4. There may be comparable distinctions between runstopping assignments, but if so I’m not as cognizant of what they’d be. One of the points you both seem to have in mind is that the players we’ve been acquiring make more sense if a 5-2, or a 5-2 sorta, is what we’re “really” running. In terms of size it makes sense that Dumervil, for instance, who’s on the small side of small for playing DE on a four-man front, is just about right for playing DE on a five-man front. But I suppose it’s perhaps even moreso a matter of the way he and the other “tweeners” play, if they have lineman skills, linebacker skills, or a combination of the two. That of course raises the question, what are linemen skills and linebacker skills?

Please realize I’m not trying to play gotcha with either of you, but am highlighting apparent contradictions and framing these issues so as to pick your brains and become more knowledgeable. What better place to do that than in MHR University? To add one more interesting observation, I just watched part of the New England-Washington game, and the Patriots’ outside backers played up on the line the whole time I was watching and appeared to pass rush from both ends of the line more often than not (but my observational skills aren’t such that I’m sure of the latter). Does that mean they’re playing a 5-2?

You, SlowWhiteGuy, and many other MHR members are not only knowledgeable but incredibly generous. How could I not learn just by being in the same virtual room with you?