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Horse Tracks 8/3/09 - BMarsh tweaks hip or hamstring; Jarvis hopefully returning today

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DB - Making Moves - Gray Caldwell
Tim Crowder is down to 258 lbs for his switch to OLB/DE and working hard. Meanwhile, Marcus Thomas spoke to his buddy Jarvis Moss and says he'll be back at practice today. While Josh McDaniels and Brian Dawkins both say Alphonso Smith has much to learn, they are both clearly excited about Smith's playmaking skills.

DB - Day 3: A.M. Blog - Chris Gentilviso
Great news from McDaniels, as he said Nic Clemons did not suffer a serious injury on Saturday. Meanwhile, BMarsh left practice with an apparent hip issue and Vernon Fox is already back practicing. As Mets announcer/former star Keith Hernandez loves to say, the Broncos are focusing on their "fundies," or fundamentals. Good to hear/read.

DB - Day 3: P.M. Blog - Zach Eisendrath
The Broncos worked on some trick plays last night, including fake punts, direct snaps and end arounds.

DP - Broncos WR Marshall sits out because of hip - Mike Klis
Hopefully any soreness will help bring BMarsh to reality; he's not 100%, he's not ready for the season, and he's not ready for a big payday.

ESPN - Outside the Lines with Josh McDaniels
Ed Werder shares plenty of insight on the Broncos' coach, from the senior McDaniels, Bill Belichick, Pat Bowlen and Josh himself. Plus, Jay Cutler says it wasn't just about the trade rumors...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

NFL - Signing status of 2009 NFL Draft first-round picks
Still 4 unsigned players between DHB and Knowshon (Thanks, Al). Not sure what's holding up Ayers, though...

DB - Day 3: McDaniels - Broncos TV

DB - Day 3: Transcript - Josh McDaniels

DB - Day 3: Hillis - Broncos TV

DB - Day 3: Crowder - Broncos TV

DB - Day 3: Play of the Day - Broncos TV
WR Kenny McKinley tips a pass to himself

DP - Broncos' Moss set to rejoin team - Lindsay Jones

DP - Krieger: Plenty riding on rookie corner

DP - Wiegmann won't get "tired" after offseason routine
Casey Wiegmann added an unconventional exercise to his offseason. Also, he says players were nervous about passing the conditioning test which kicked off camp.

Star-divide

9NEWS - Broncos fullback shows he's still a bone-rattler

DP - Bio: Darcel McBath

DP - Looking for lock down
Legwold says it's all about stopping the run for Denver's D.

CSG - Broncos outside linebackers learning as they go - Frank Schwab

CSG - McDaniels lightens team's load in evening practice
Frank Schwab's notes from Sunday's practices

IDT - Day 3 of Denver Broncos training camp
Hunter Ansley was impressed by Tim Crowder, Peyton Hillis and Kyle Orton.

DP - Long orange line leads to Logan - Dusty Saunders
Apparently, there's still confusion about who will be working with Dave Logan.

SDUT - At 33, Williams knows his career is on borrowed time

SDUT - Safety Gregory makes strong impression on first day in pads

SDUT - Blond ambition

SDUT - Chiseled Gates hit the weights

KCS - Cassel making himself at home with the Chiefs

KCS - Chiefs buzz | Three veterans back on the field

SFG - Ellis not too old to get the QB

SFG - Raiders Silver and Black Blog : Sunday p.m. update

SFG - Raiders Silver and Black Blog : Are we there yet?

NFL - Patriots, Brady looking to bounce back into playoffs in 2009 - Pat Kirwan

CBS - Belichick's play-fake with Vick ingenious - Mike Freeman

Y! - One more shot for Mason, Ravens - Charles Robinson

SI - Joe Flacco is in complete command at Ravens training camp - Ross Tucker

SI - Health key to Seahawks rebounding in Jim Mora Jr.'s first year - Jim Trotter

ESPN - Camp Confidential: All quiet for Vikings ... for now

ESPN - Camp Confidential: Surprise in Cincinnati?

ESPN - Chris Mortensen has observations on the New Orleans Saints during his bus tour

Y! - White holdout could have ripple effects - Jason Cole

NFP - Sunday at the Post - Mike Lombardi

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Morning NYC

Thanks for staying on top of all the tracks. Lotta stuff going down, and you continue to catch it all!

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 6:33 AM MDT reply actions  

McGeorge

Sorry broncosmontana for posting this here.

I’m angry. As you read on today, McGeorge completely hijacked this discussion.

I wrote in another post:

I just wanted to second that MHR is tolerant. We all know the poster you’re talking about. When he’s not on his rant about McD, Cutler, Alphonso, etc., he contributes thoughtful questions, facts and perspectives. Other posters who just come to troll are run out quickly.

I changed my mind. The solution is just to ignore him. Do not reply. Not now. Not ever. He thrives on controversy and puffing himself up. Who cares what he thinks? If you do reply, just type in Troll.

OK, I’ll say it…… McGeorge is a troll.

by Endzone on Aug 3, 2009 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry EZ

I definitely don’t agree with a lot of what McG has to say, but I don’t consider him a troll. In my experience, an opinion that goes against the grain can be extremely helpful and keep us honest and grounded. You don’t have to agree with him, and I believe you are welcome take tremendous satisfaction in the crow he will (I believe) willingly eat someday if he’s proven wrong. Besides, if we’re right about feeling good about our new HC, where’s the threat?

I don’t approve of the self important tone or him lumping us all together as McDaniels fanboys, because a lot of us are quite recognisant of the fact that zero games have been played. But not everyone has to be sunshine and orange blossoms — or likeable — to express their love of the team.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

but

I do share your pain. ; )

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Mornin nyc, Thanks for Horse Tracks...

Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM

by UB3 on Aug 3, 2009 7:02 AM MDT reply actions  

Thanks Nyc

I’m glad Clemons is OK, and it was B Marsh’s hip soreness and not a Hammie problem.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Aug 3, 2009 7:12 AM MDT reply actions  

The hip might be teh worst possible news unfortunately

as Mike Clark likes to remind us… Hips are funny things.

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 3, 2009 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

White Holdout, uh oh, I know there isn’t any documented connection but this has to be McDaniels’ fault. We just know it!

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 3, 2009 7:23 AM MDT reply actions  

Good Articles

Still cant wait for the morning when the headline is Moreno and Ayers are signed

On To Victory!!!

by alacumba!! on Aug 3, 2009 7:37 AM MDT reply actions  

+1

Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just how in the world do you think it got to be this old?
— Anon

Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw

by Choochoobonewagon on Aug 3, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

Is it just me, or is Krieger’s Alphonso ‘bio’ another thinly vieled rip job? He makes sure that Smith’s int comes across as nothing special, basically says we redrafted Dre Bly, and then only uses vet quotes talking about his mistakes and the work to be done. All this to make the point that Smith will live under the shadow of comparison.

Thanks Dave, next you might consider a column on sky color— but be sure to point out that the blue appearance is mired with greenhouse gasses and toxins. That should firmly entrench you as a candidate for a local pulitzer…if those exist.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 3, 2009 7:49 AM MDT reply actions  

I suppose Kridger could just fawn over the Broncos like Klis. Would that make you happy.

The Alphonso Smith trade is a risky one that could doom McDaniels if Denver is terrible in 2009. If it’s a Top 10 pick, this trade will be the talk of the 2010 draft and entire 2010 off season.

But I don’t think Denver will be picking in the Top 5, hopefully not the Top 10. Denver hasn’t picked in the Top 10 since Mike Croel back in 1991. But what bothers me most about this trade is that there are a lot of good D-linemen projected to be in the 1st round of the 2010 draft. From what I am seeing/reading, Denver is still short two or three quality D-linemen and there is definitely not a Trevor Pryce talent on our roster, not even close. IMO, it’s better to have star D-linemen than star CBs.

Secondly, Jack Williams seems to be a decent nickel CB candidate so the position was not all that pressing for 2009. I know the starting CBs are getting old, but why couldn’t we have waited until the 2010 draft to use a 2nd rounder (or the like) on the CB.

And as far the nonsensical argument about having to make two 1st round picks in consecutive drafts and the financial ramifications, Denver could have easily traded away their own 2010 1st round pick at any time before the 2010 draft. If it turns out to be a high pick in round 1, we could have gotten a lot more for it than the 37th overall pick in the 2009 NFL draft.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

My point with Krieger, as it has been with you, is:

I get it. I know. He’s a midget who will be compared to some other guy, and he will always tied to the Cutler trade. None of it is new…just a regurgitation of the same old arguments packaged as something different.

It isn’t news anymore. There’s nothing new to the opinions. The only thing I learned is that Krieger can work other guys (Brandstrater) into the latest attempt to make us know he doesn’t like the direction of the team. Fair enough. But why bother?

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 3, 2009 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Incorrect...

About the draft part, at least. You really think Detroit wanted to spend another 25 mil on a quarterback after missing on Harrington not that long ago? People want no part of a Top-5 pick because the financial setup for rookies is so screwed up. If the Broncos are as bad as you seem to think, then it will be a Top-5, and we’ll be screwed.

I’m sorry, but it isn’t a given that Chicago will be 12-4. What happens if they implode and the Broncos end up with 2 Top-10 picks?? Hell, we’re having trouble signing the two Top-20 picks we had this year….

The financial implications HAVE to be taken into account, whether we as fans like it or not.

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605

Follow MHR on Twitter!
Follow MHR on Facebook!

by John Bena on Aug 3, 2009 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Not to mention… I think there’s a false assumption that Pro-Bowl quality talent can only be found with a top-10 pick. Time will tell, of course, but I think the Broncos organization prides itself on finding their guys wherever they’re slotted to draft.

Beware the wrath of a patient adversary.

John C. Calhoun --

by bcfunk on Aug 3, 2009 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Cleveland just traded out of the Top 5 in a draft that was considered quite weak. Denver could always trade down into the later rounds if they really hate having 1st rounders. So there, financial considerations taken into account by an irrational fan.

I agree, the financial setup for Top 10 draft picks is really messed up. The rest of the 1st round, much less so. And I don’t think Denver or Chicago will finish in the bottom 10 in the NFL this season.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Then...

The Broncos are hoping that a QB falls to around #5, and a team looking to make a splash like the Jets were this off-season is looking to move up to get him. No guarantee….

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605

Follow MHR on Twitter!
Follow MHR on Facebook!

by John Bena on Aug 3, 2009 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

With Bradford, Snead, Tebow, McCoy, Barry, Taylor Mayes and several top D-linemen looking to enter into the 2010 draft, it should be a very good year to get a 5-star prospect in the Top 5. This has not been the case in the past few drafts.

No guarantee Alphonso Smith beats out Jack Williams to be the nickel CB either.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Disagree.

Something may change in camp, but Williams never really took off, and I’m reading rave reveiws on Smith so far.

Just my opinion.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 3, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really?

Go look at the 1st round of the 2004-2007 NFL drafts and tell me how many Pro Bowlers came from round 1 vs how many came for the rest of the rounds in those drafts.

More Pro Bowlers come out of a typical 1st round than the rest of the draft combined. And it’s a lot easier to find a Manning brother, Big Ben, Matt Ryan, Cutler, Rivers, Flacco, McNabb in round 1 than a Brady in round whatever.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

A few non- first round Pro Bowl QB's

Joe Montana; Tom Brady; Bret Favre; Drew Brees; Jake Plummer; Jeff Garcia; Kurt Warmer; Matt Hasselbeck. Just to name a few off the top of my head.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

I have Already Answered this Myself

Try reading a reply to your comments.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 3, 2009 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

asked and answered...

a thousand times. But keep re-asking the questions as if they’re fresh and haven’t been addressed. Maybe that way we’ll all forget about the sound football and organizational logic that went into the Smith move.

Doubtful, but maybe.

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sigh...

Yeah, so far I have not seen one person with McGeorge’s view of that trade actually listen to the central point that Smith is arguably a first-round talent.

Forget the other defensible points: first round picks costing a lot, current picks being more valuable than future picks, etc etc etc….

In my mind, we got a first-round talent – i.e., a guy who’ll turn the ball over to us numerous times a year to set up key scores in close games – for second round money. This after we got the best running back in the draft and, in some people’s opinion, the best defensive player.

The only reason we’re even talking about this, i.e., the only reason he slipped to 37, is that Smith is a couple inches too short on paper. Didn’t seem to be a problem when he was on the field, so I think that argument is questionable at best.

But McG and others will not address any of these points, because it’s another opportunity to say why they don’t like The Coach, and they’ve spent far too much time talking about that to turn back now.

by ShawnDenver on Aug 3, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, Shawn, Smith is only the same height as Asante Samuel and Rhonde Barber

And we know what lousy players they’ve been….;-)

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Smith...

….is an inch taller than Derrell Green, who went to the Pro Bowl many times in his 19 year career.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Smith was arguably a 1st round pick in the weak 2009 NFL draft, an especially weak draft for CBs. And Denver used a high 2nd round pick to acquire the kid and we all can agree that a high second round pick is not all that much different than a late 1st. Does that make you feel better?

Smith ran a poor 40 at the combine. His speed as much as his height is the reason why he didn’t go in round 1.

I’m glad we got a 1st round pick in your mind. In Alphonso Smith’s contract, he is paid like a 2nd rounder, the #37 overall pick to be exact. That is a lot more tangible than a fan’s biased opinion of his value.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

This has all been reshashed a thousand times.

So, somehow, despite the incredible slowness of the guy and his midget like size, the guy seems to grab interceptions like nobody’s business.

You’ve made it clear that our coach is a moron, and that most folks at MHR are foolish for thinking the Smith move was smart (financialy and on the field).

FWIW, Dawkins also seems to be misinformed (as he has praised the skills of Smith, and not lightly). But perhaps you think Dawkins was an over the hill mistake too.

C’mon man, cheer up. When all you do is rip the coach and the team, it sounds like you aren’t in their corner. I’ve had my differences with the team from time to time (especially over last two years), but I hope I never came across like I was pulling for the team to fail so I could be proved right.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 3, 2009 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not in McDaniels corner. Not yet anyway.

A bunch of folks above are trying to paint me as someone that doesn’t know my stuff. Reading my responses should prove that I do. I’ve read up plenty of Smith and as an ACC guy, I’ve seen him play far more than most of you. I think he is a really good football player on game day and nothing is more important. I personally hate the combine. But I also pointed out where he was drafted and why (slow and short). I don’t make stuff up like “everyone says he was a 1st round talent”. That is simply not a true statement and I’m not going to apologize for pointing that out.

I’d happily eat crow for McDaniels to pan out. Based on his decision making skills or lack thereof, I really don’t think he will. So I’m not going to jump on a bandwagon I strongly feel is going to crash and burn. McDaniels has to earn my support and thus far, he has not. So far, I see him as little more than an interloper.

Feel free to believe otherwise. Just know that there are thousands of well educated Bronco fanatics that feel much different than the majority of MHR readers do about McDaniels and the direction of this team.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

What is your source, McGeorge?
Just know that there are thousands of well educated Bronco fanatics that feel much different than the majority of MHR readers do about McDaniels and the direction of this team.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

He is his own source.

Give it time, and he’ll start quoting his comments over at the DP.

If you look through the pre-draft scouting reports, a vast majority of sources had Smith rated as a first rounder. But even beyond that, what’s important — as I’ve said a hundred times here and elsewhere — is that the Broncos had him pegged as a first round talent.

Which means that they picked up three players in this past draft they believed were first round talents, and they did it with two first round picks. Next year they’ll pick up another first round talent with their first round pick (provided they don’t trade down in a deep draft).

Result? They got an extra first-round-graded talent this year in exchange for a first round-graded talent next year that they’d have to wait for.

Given that they want to win this year, that makes sense. And it makes financial sense, as well.

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jeff, you make a very good point

As I noted below, NewEraScouting rated him as a top 20 pick and that was part of the bio-profile I did on him and published here on MHR so it wasn’t hard to find the info. The search option on this site is something that I use nearly every day, and there’s a world of info available on it.

That aside – a lot of fans who don’t understand the game that well are fooled by the MSM idea that if a guy is a cornerback (or any other position) he will be good in any system in the league. It’s misleading – actually, it’s just incorrect.

Different teams have different systems, needs and rating approaches. If the Broncos have him as a 1st round talent (and they clearly weren’t alone), there’s no reason to dicker with them until/unless he doesn’t work out. In the meantime, enjoy the show!

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Names! I want names! LOL

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Names…. You want names…

Read BroncoDano, Millertime, Sixshooter, SickNtired, Lax, Alexadams, steelblueand, and several other posters at the DP. In fact, the majority of posters at the DP are not behind McDaniels. Like me, they don’t trust his judgment, they don’t trust his inexperience, they don’t like his arrogance and they don’t like some of his major roster moves.

There are a lot of DP readers that don’t follow this site like I do. There are a lot of DP readers that will be at Mile High on game day. If Denver struggles in 2009, there will be a lot of Bronco fanatics that jump all over the Coach.

What you do get from me is straight shooting. I have to take you guys on 50-1 everyday and I still bring my A game most of the time. It’s not easy, but someone has to challenge the group-think going on here.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

So if I'm hearing this right

you’re coming right out and accusing pretty much all MHR posters of groupthink. And yet you have no qualms with saying that the majority of the posters at the DP are not behind McDaniels?

I appreciate the fact that there are other passionate fans out there with opinions very different from the very vocal posters at MHR. Therefore, let me postulate, for the sake of argument, that it’s not at all hypocritical to say that we’re engaging in groupthink and the majority of posters at DP are not.

If I take a long read through the posters you’ve mentioned, am I likely to see them taking it comparatively easy on the few people in the DP threads who might disagree with your thesis? Am I going to find the conversations, on balance, cordial and accepting of other viewpoints?

In other words, do you feel that the esteemed, illuminated braintrust that drives the DP discussion threads practice what you are preaching?

Just curious.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

Still curious.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seriously

Do you ever have anything new to add. We have all heard this argument from you mutiple times. We all already know you hate our coach and do not like the trade for smith. It is also clear that you really do not think smith is a very good player. If you look at only smiths production in college almost all scouts would drool and say he would be a top 10 pick. Then there are people like you who choose to nitpick and look at his size and speed which really do not matter. The kid is an outstanding football player and his production proves it.

Now for the 2010 draft. There is no gurantee that it will be a great draft. Where are getting this info? From espn. You cannot judge how good the prospects for the draft are untill all tha underclassmen declare, and all if them will not declare. You are also nit thinking about the financial implications of having two grist round picks in consecutive years. We do have some good/proven players whose contracts are up at the end of this year. I would rather use this extra money on a proven player then some rookie. Like you say yourself, rookie players are not a gurantee and that goes for top 10 talent also.

On a side note I love the mobile commenting. It makes my iPhone even better!!!

by gnarlybroncodude on Aug 3, 2009 2:11 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I disagree. I think a team should build through the draft, not free agency. Draft good players and resign the key guys.

You’re post is very typical of an uniformed, knee jerk MHR response to criticism of McDaniels.

I’ve stated dozens of times why the 2010 draft will be a good one (tons of Jr. trying to get in before a likely rookie wage sage in the next CBA, plus that fact that a lot of guys predicted to turn pro in 2009 surprised by going back to school). Maybe you find my reasoning to be crazy, but me thinks you know much less about this and college football than I.

If you read my responses, I clearly addressed financial concerns (risks) of having to sign multiple 1st round picks, I also addressed Smith’s Pros and Cons. He was drafted pretty much exactly where he was projected. High 2nd round. Anyone taken that high is going to have a lot of pros on his resume. I think he’ll do fine in Denver. But I’d rather have used our 2010 1st round pick on a D-linemen. In time, I believe I’ll be proven right about this.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with this
I think a team should build through the draft, not free agency. Draft good players and resign the key guys.

However, a new coach wants to do things differently so some free agents at the beginning is not unreasonable. Dawkins, Jordan, Buckhalter, Davis, Goodman, Hill, Gaffney Reid and Fields were all reasonable signings I bet they all make the team and do well this year.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

really
You’re post is very typical of an uniformed, knee jerk MHR response to criticism of McDaniels

I love you you act like you are so far above and more well informed then everyone else on this site. You think your opinion is the only one that matters. The problem is that you completly write off the other side of the arguement and you always think you are right. You are just looking at the small picture and not the big picture. What makes you think you are so Informed on everything.

Also who says we are not building though the draft. I agree that you should build a team throught the draft and I never said we should not build from the draft. I said that we have current BRONCO players that we drafted whos contracts are up after this season. Some of these guys deserve new contracts and are proven players. I never said anything about free agency.

Smith was projected to go in the late 1st and early 2nd based only on his size and speed. Well I watched the combine and almost everyone ran horrible and slow. You are passing judgement on him based on his size and speed and not his production and on the field play. His production in college and on the field play is all that matters. You do not have 21 career INT without being a Special player; that is why it rarely happens.

Also Calling someone uninformed is a nice way of calling them stupid. I do not appreciate it and other around here should not also. You have no idea what my background and I do not know yours. I am simply pointing out things that you are leaving out in most of your arguements.

by gnarlybroncodude on Aug 3, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

You enjoy putting false words in my mouth and then cry wolf when I return the favor. Hello Pot…

This site is so full of group think and no one sees it because everyone is so busy patting themselves on the back. I find it hilarious. Talk about not seeing the forest thought the trees. Read the comments on a daily basis and its just a bunch of guys thinking the same thing “outside the box” of course.

I think we won’t have one guy on our D-line that is a long term player for the Broncos. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if every guy on our D-line right now is not on the Broncos roster by 2011. I don’t like the Alphonso Smith trade because I think we need a whole new D-line. Not a roster full of stop gap players that get replaced one at a time. And signing D-linemen of substance in FA is ultra expensive. I believe you build a D-line though the draft. Without a 1st round pick in 2010, we don’t have as much ammo as I wish we did. I’ve made this argument very clearly and no one has said anything to refute my point of view. They, like you, just put false words in my writing in order to make some talking point they stole from MHR article they read yesterday.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 8:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

“Without a 1st round pick in 2010, we don’t have as much ammo as I wish we did.”

The Broncos do have a 1st round pick in 2010…to go along with their picks in every other round.

How’s that for refuting your point of view?

Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage

by TD4HOF on Aug 3, 2009 9:32 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Here we go...

Over at the DP forum, McGeorge is known for telling people they don’t know anything about football.

It was only a matter of time before he began puffing himself up here.

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Smith ran three times. The first one was a 4.36

Why on earth do you think that is slow?

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

The guy is just blowing smoke up our pant leg and trying to tell us our butts on fire, it won't happen.

Smith was a brilliant tactical move to the behalf of McDaniels and he can’t stand it, so sad these guys who go to hockey games and hold up signs saying to “Fire McDaniels”. That’s a personal attack on our Owner and I as a Bronco fan abhor that kind of resentment. No “REAL” fan would stoop to such a thing. Just leeches that need to be ripped off and thrown in the fire.

by bfree2bronc on Aug 3, 2009 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

His game speed is good. I’d know because I’ve seen him play live about a dozen times. He is a nice player.

None of this makes me happy we traded a 2010 1st round pick (with the possibility of drafting a D-linemen) on a CB.

I’d rather Denver had high end D-linemen than high end CBs. I’ve said this four or five times now.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

What I don’t understand is this…McG, if you admit that Alphonso Smith has good game speed (your words), then why on earth would you bring up his Combine numbers? Here you are, saying that you have more info/knowledge on Smith from watching him more than most of us (which I believe), but then your argument goes to Combine numbers. Do you not trust your own eyes?

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 4, 2009 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree that we could most definitely use a d-lineman — the fun thing about your statement is that, “there are a lot of good d-lineman projected to be in the first round.”

There are not just one or two, meaning they will drop down the boards. I looked at a list and there were probably 4 projected d-lineman for the first round and a number of “good” ones [I don’t watch much college ball, so I can’t really provide my own input] in the second and third rounds. If we need one, even in the middle we should be able to get a pretty good one. I think a lot of teams are going to start having nightmares because of the difficulties league wide in getting first rounders signed this year.

by Todd Jewell on Aug 3, 2009 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Denver needs one D-linemen, I think we need two or three. More than that, I think we need an impact Pro-Bowl type D-linemen. I think we need someone like Trevor Pryce.

Maybe we can draft one in round 2-7, but I like our chances better in round 1, esp. in the 2010 draft with guys like Gerald McCoy, T Cody, the NT at Nebraska or Marvin Austin.

But what would I know, I’m just some MSM inside the box thinker that doesn’t know the 1st thing about real football.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

We still have a first round pick — as well as a pick in the rounds following it. The good thing is that the draft is next year, so we have time to fully evaulate the players we have now, to see just how many we actually need, as well as free agency and trade deadlines.

2010 FAs

There are many things that can change the need to draft a lineman, so looking at the loss of a pick because of the urgent need for a lineman, could be a bit premature, right?

There are many ways to restock a team and it isn’t just through the draft. If you could spend less money on someone who has a proven track record with less “upside”, would you do it over spending a lot of guaranteed money on a guy from college who may or may not prove to be anything… ranging from huge upside to huge bust?

I wish we still had Pryce, personally =)

by Todd Jewell on Aug 3, 2009 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry Todd,

I read your comment after I posted mine. I just said what you said.

But look, if the guy is convinced that we need several first round D-linemen before we’ve even played the season (and heck, wanting a ton of d-linemen at any rate when we’re drafting a BPA strategy), I don’t think any facts are going to get in the way.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 3, 2009 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

And we need them all in the first round?

We have a first round pick at any rate, and plenty of picks after that. Let’s see how this season goes before we start demanding d-linemen up and down the board next year.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 3, 2009 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Poor McGeorge

A victim of the MHR Kool-Aid crew — and for what? For Speaking Truth to Power! For being a realist, like John Clayton and Jamie Dukes!

So unfair. Especially when you are clearly so much smarter and more informed than anyone else, anywhere, ever!

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

lol

now thats funny

by gnarlybroncodude on Aug 3, 2009 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

...

don’t be that guy =)

let him voice his opinion as long as he stays civil, which he has always done — regardless of how many people disagree somewhat, or completely

it helps to have a differing view, as can be seen by how the majority here have a differing view than that of the MSM.

by Todd Jewell on Aug 3, 2009 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

"don’t be that guy =)"

I agree. McGeorge is not a troll by a long shot. His opinions are certainly arguable – McD may turn out to be a bust as a HC, for example. And as to a criticism that he says the same things over and over, so do the MHR faithful – how many times has Hillis been lauded, for example? (Of course, Hillis deserves them all)

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry, but McGeorge just repeats the same arguments

…without ever really acknowledging that his objections have been thoroughly addressed.

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

But that's because

in his eyes (McGeorge’s), they have not been addressed. And that’s OK. I think he can get everyone’s dander up due primarily to style. The fact that he has a different opinion is just that – different. I do think he could do a better job of acknowledging that most of this is just speculation at this point – we haven’t played a down yet – and that other ways of viewing the situation are at least as valid. But of course, that’s a two-way street . . .

It's "just" football

by Donkhead on Aug 4, 2009 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

What else he fails to take into consideration . . .

besides the fact that EVERY pundit is in agreeance that Smith was a 1st rounder, is that Smith is also a HUGE asset on special teams. You know, the other part that Shanny forgot about developing. We get a 1st round talent that can make an impact in not just one department (defense), but in two (defense AND special teams). All for the cost of a 2nd rounder. If you ask me, that was a GENIUS move by the new regime.

"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes

by HSFBCoach on Aug 3, 2009 9:37 AM MDT reply actions  

I can point to several (over five) NFL draft experts that said Smith was a borderline 1st round pick. Guess what, these guys were right. Smith was drafted right near the top of round #2, exactly where a lot of draft experts thought he’d get picked. Borderline 1st round pick = late 1 or early 2.

What I can’t find is one draft expert that said he was a Top 20 overall talent.

It is convenient for you guys to label any and all non-McDaniel supporters as MSM re-harshers. It’s tired, lazy and it doesn’t always hold water.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

My point was never that you or Krieger...

…have stupid opinions. I see the merits of the argument and the criticism. I’ve just heard them all a bizillion times. I know Krieger doesn’t like McD. I know you don’t like McD. I simply found it hilarious that Krieger spent a couple of sentences making sure we understood that the little playmaker’s most recent play wasn’t much to write home about. Its sort of petty, if you ask me. But that’s just my opinion.

If you like and respect local writers going out of their way to rip the local team, I respect that.

I don’t like it, and will probably continue to comment on it.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 3, 2009 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

"You guys"?

Well now that the cat is out of the bag, and you’ve labeled yourself as a “McDaniels Non-supporter”, why not ply your wares elsewhere? If you don’t support the coach or the players, you aren’t supporting the team. Disagreement is great, but not supporting the coach goes beyond disagreement.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 3, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree

HT, I like your stuff and generally agree with your opinion. And while McGeorge’s generally negative comments on this blog can be a little tiresome and are at times presented a little bluntly, he generally backs up his comments with some degree of logic. I don’t believe that one has to support the coach to be a fan of the team and I for one am always intrigued with opinions that do not mimic my own or the vast majority of posters here. Go Broncs!

It's "just" football

by Donkhead on Aug 3, 2009 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Holy smokes. I nearly spit tea all over the computer screen. Thanks.

To say I must support the Coach to support the Broncos is insanity. If you were a KC fan and Herm Edwards was the coach, do you have to support that hack to be a Chief fan? I hope not!

If McDaniels doesn’t have to prove himself to you, that’s fine. But don’t call me out as a fan just because I want to see this guy win more games than he loses before I give this guy the thumbs up.
 

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Win more games than lose

“If McDaniels doesn’t have to prove himself to you, that’s fine. But don’t call me out as a fan just because I want to see this guy win more games than he loses before I give this guy the thumbs up. "

Too bad you don’t use the same criteria when it comes to a starting QB.

People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.

by c_style on Aug 3, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yikes, I almost have to agree...

Though I find that I disagree with McGeorge rather commonly, I have to agree with his theory that supporting your team does not necessarily mean you have to support the coach. That’s like saying you have to like the president and all his actions to be a good American. Now, routing for them to fail….that’s an entirely different issue. That’s putting your own ego and narrowminded view ahead of the actual team. But I agree with the statement as a whole. Think of the poor Lion’s fans, was not supporting Millen and all his decisions a black mark on their love of their team?

On the other hand, McGeorge, I don’t think McDaniels is taking your phone calls, so why get worked up on what you perceive to be negative aspects instead of just hoping for the best? We have no idea whether or not he’s going to be amazing! Doesn’t mean you have to go to Vegas and bet the house on them winning the super bowl. It just means, hey, have some FUN!!

by 3RingsHeProbablyKnowsSomething on Aug 4, 2009 1:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

If you want to rename MHR, McDaniels fan club, I’d gladly disappear. Until then, this Bronco fan is going to post his take on things.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 3, 2009 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

McGeorge weren't you the one who said it was a mistake to take Eddie Royal.

If it serves me right I think you were now. I’ll have to go into the archives and check, I’ll be back.

by bfree2bronc on Aug 3, 2009 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

doh

Normally agree with you — but I sure as heck wasn’t agreeing with a lot of things Shanahan and staff were doing last year and didn’t consider myself any less of a fan.

I cheer the team on the front of the jersey, not the owner, coach, or players. I do cheer some players, this owner, and I am hoping for the best with this coach. I have liked almost all of the decisions so far.

by Todd Jewell on Aug 3, 2009 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's odd - it didn't take me but a couple of moments

Smith was rated as a top 20 pick by New Era Scouting – here’s the link . This was published on MHR’s Tales from the SunnySide: Alphonso Smith.

That’s sort of the issue here, in small. Either do at least a little reading and base your opinions on something or expect folks to rebuke you. That’s kind of normal here, you know. Logic, reason and analysis seem more appropriate than ’I think so because I think so!". I mean, do what you want, but seriously – you need to learn to read things on the subjects that you post on.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sporting News had him 11th overall

…something I linked to when you made these same bogus claims about Smith over at the DP.

So yes, you do know of at least one draft expert service that had him as a top 20 overall talent.

There are others, as well. Just look around.

by JeffG on Aug 3, 2009 4:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice

I keep notes on all of the players – I just made a point of adding that one to the (9 page) list. Thanks, Jeff.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

BTW, Jeff -

Do you have a link to that page? I just want to place it in the notes

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Even better than usual Tracks, nyc

And that’s saying a lot….I really appreciate all the work you put into this. It’s changed the way that I organize my info every day. Lots of folks have picked up your approach around the Web, but none have duplicated the quality. Three cheers for you, my friend

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Aug 3, 2009 10:39 AM MDT reply actions  

+3

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Aug 3, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

couldn't agree more!

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks NYC!

Horse Tracks is the first thing I check in the morning. I also like the short commentary on the links. Keep up the great work!

by MacGuffin on Aug 3, 2009 12:26 PM MDT reply actions  

McGeorge, et al

While I often disagree with McGeorge and others, I think it is essential that we understand that it is McGeorge and those who make up what could be called “the loyal opposition” who give MHR its cred. If MHR becomes merely a bunch of kool-aid drinkers, or if we just appear that way, then we lose our credibility as an independent source; we become merely a mouthpiece for the organization.

Furthermore, it is the dissenting views of members like McGeorge, Broncoman, and too many others for me to name who force the rest to sharpen our analysis, gather more facts, and re-examine our assumptions. As much as we may become irritated by the opinions they espouse, they make MHR a much better site for their criticisms.

And perhaps, much as we hate to admit it, they just might be right.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Aug 3, 2009 6:54 PM MDT reply actions  

+ 1

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 3, 2009 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Perfectly put SWG

as always. Thanks for that. Except for that part about them being right, of course. ; )

But I’ll add that you can be right and still be disliked. I’m happy to consider any viewpoint, theory, or feedback. I’m willing to be patient to those who have an opinion that is unpopular, at MHR or anywhere else, and understanding for their natural defensiveness.

What goes over the line for me is people who talk down to other people. You do that, I lose respect for your opinion, regardless of what it is. And frankly, as much I’d like to seize the moral high ground, I usually just go into indifferent ignore mode when I see one of those names.

We’re all Broncos fans. We may not all support the HC, the QB, the guy who plays the mascot, or the janitor at Dove Valley. But we should support each other. We can argue about who is more informed, but we shouldn’t pretend that anyone’s fandom is any more valid or important or sincere or legitimate on that basis alone. Either you are rooting for the Broncos or you are not. And it’s not hard to tell the difference.

Nutshell? Make friends or don’t. But don’t expect people to listen to your arguments if you’re careless with the tone you convey with your choice of words.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 3, 2009 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

+1

Nicely put both SWG and broncosmontana!

It's "just" football

by Donkhead on Aug 4, 2009 11:31 AM MDT reply actions  

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