Horse Tracks 8/5/09 - Jarvis and Ayers appear; STILL no Knowshon

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 5:56 AM MDT in Horse Tracks Comment 83 comments

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DB - Day 5 Blog - Zach Eisendrath
Clemons and Marshall missed yesterday's practice, while Wiegmann, Graham and Torain returned. BDawk left in the middle of practice with some sort of physical issue. Meanwhile, Jabar Gaffney has apparently shown a knack for getting open in the end zone. The Slot Machine chose a little PJ for the daily playlist.

DB - Day 5 Report - Broncos TV
Chris Hall details Ayers' first day of practice and the return of Moss

DB - Day 5: McDaniels - Broncos TV

DB - Willing Himself to Stand Out - Chris Gentilviso
Gentilviso profiles second-year corner Jack Williams, who says he feels more comfortable this time around. Robert Ayers practiced and says he needs to work on his positioning. Plus, Jarvis Moss returned (probably once he realized he'd have to give back a chunk of cash if he retired). Unfortunately, Nick Greisen's knee injury landed him on IR; Denver signed LB Braxton Kelley to replace him. Kelley went undrafted after being a four-year starter at Kentucky. Three referees are in came for a few days, including Ed Hochuli, of all people.

DP - Moss back with Broncos after brief departure - Lindsay Jones

DP - Broncos defensive coordinator Nolan tackling a tough job
Legwold profiles Mike Nolan; Dan Reeves shares some memories and thoughts.

DP - Krieger: Nolan needs time, talent
Krieger reminds us that Denver's defensive front is full of unknowns. He flails at comparing McDaniels' offseason moves to that of Shanny's in the past; he equates 2 different defensive backfields of Shanahan's to the '09 version. Dave, when's the last time Denver had four quality starting D-backs at the same time? Plus, he faults the lack of a pass rusher inside on the line. (If you need help understanding a 3-4, check out MHR, Dave). Finally, he says that blaming the DC needs to stop. Well, Shanny is gone so why would you assume that practice will continue, Dave? Look, I get it; there are question marks, and we all can agree on that. To the self-proclaimed ombudsmen - I don't generally have a problem with Krieger; but this is one sloppy and meandering column...

IDT - Ayers’ arrival brings clarity to Broncos’ critical front seven - Hunter Ansley

IDT - Orton’s INTs, Dawkins’ injury cast pall over Broncos’ camp - Hunter Ansley

DP - Stadium practice will put players in the spotlight - Mike Klis

DB - Colorful Year at INVESCO Field at Mile High - Jim Saccomano
Sacco details what jerseys Denver will wear at home in '09. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

DB - Ask Ryan Torain...
Submit questions for Torain and he'll provide some answers to be posted on Friday

IDT - 50th anniversary: Broncos couldn’t put a sock in ’second-class’ days in AFL - Larry Weisman

DB - Day 5: Transcripts - Josh McDaniels

CSG - Broncos go with experience to bolster secondary - Frank Schwab

DP - Davis on DJ: He’s the face of the defense - Lindsay Jones
Andra Davis is impressed by DJ Williams

DP - Competition is funny that way
Legwold says Jack Williams isn't exactly handing Alphonso Smith the nickelback job.

DP - NFL ref Hochuli back in Denver for visit with Broncos - Mike Klis
Hochuli talks about you-know-what

DP - NFL nemesis: Twitter - Anica Wong

BG - Walter, O’Connell in QB competition
Shanny visited the Pats yesterday

ESPN - NFL: Jay Cutler's arrival has Chicago Bears fans optimistic
Here's that gem where Clayton credits JC with discovering Eddie Royal. HA!

*******************************

SDUT - Cromartie's tweet comes with a price

SDUT - Line coach preaches absolute aggression

NFL - Star-studded Chargers focused on one thing: Super Bowl - Bucky Brooks

ESPN - Camp Confidential: Chargers assume nothing - Pork Chop

KCS - Chiefs sign veteran receiver Toomer

KCS - Chiefs camp buzz: Dorsey gets on practice field

SFC - Rookie Mitchell enjoys hitting

SFG - Raiders Silver and Black Blog : DHB saves the day

CCT - Raiders rookie tries to solve 'pressing' issue

SI - Twitter, David Tyree, Tavaris Jackson, more NFL mailbag items - Peter King
PK explains why other coaches are letting Shanny peek in at their camps

FOX - Cutler gives Bears hope in NFC North, beyond - John Czarnecki

CBS - Bears camp report: The QB is here, now turn him loose - Pete Prisco

Y! - Mora gives Seahawks a welcomed jolt - Mike Silver

SI - Arizona Cardinals return to training camp with renewed vigor - Jim Trotter

SI - Postcard from camp: Jets - Ross Tucker

Y! - With joy comes pain for the Eagles - Charles Robinson

PFW - Eagles' Mays could be Bradley's replacement - Eric Edholm

NFL - Jets embracing Ryan's aggressive mentality in upstate N.Y. - Pat Kirwan

NFL - Redskins once again short on bodies along offensive line - Jason La Canfora

NFP - Diner morning news: Injuries have begun - Mike Lombardi

NFP - Tavern talk: the games count - Mike Lombardi

SI - In Mike Singletary, the San Francisco 49ers have true leadership - Ann Killion

SI - 25 Things We Miss In Football

SI - 10 Things We Don’t Miss About Football

NFP - NFL notebook: Leinart's depth-chart fall - Matt Bowen

NFP - NFL’s workout warriors - Jack Bechta

CBS - End of Arena League 'seems inevitable,' union official says

NFP - 2009 NFP scouting series: Purdue - Wes Bunting

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Comments

NYC

thanks as always for the work in keeping us all updated. You save the rest of us time and help me and many others be able to follow the Orange and Blue.

Bronco Learning Curve

"I don’t want to lose any time... I don’t want the team thinking I’m a money-first guy. I’m here to play football and to win. Money is secondary." Robert Ayers
"I’m still around .... I might just do it for my own well-being. I don’t get no bonuses for it, I’m just doing it because this is what I do." Doom
"He can throw a fastball, he can throw a touch ball, he throws an awesome deep ball" Brandon Lloyd on K.O.

by sbhchawk on Aug 5, 2009 5:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

NYC I look forward to these updates every morning

Thanks so much for doing this everyday. It is a part of my routine in the morning.
Question: You do not think Dave Krieger is the most hostile towards McDaniels of all the DP writers? From some things I have read he is like a troll breeder. Maybe I missed some of his good stuff ;-)

"Time wounds all heels" Groucho Marx

by dmitchell624 on Aug 5, 2009 6:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I personally don’t have a general problem with any of the DP writers’ work. I’d say they’re a bit inconsistent at times and go a bit with the wind, but I think they all write some good columns and some bad ones. I don’t think any of them have an anti-Broncos or pro-Broncos agenda; I really don’t. For many years I’ve seen a lot of vitriol aimed in the direction of Kiszla and Krieger, but it’s generally from folks who only want to read positive spins about our team. Both of those guys are good writers, IMHO.

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 7:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kiszla had an agenda

at least one that I know of, and it was to browbeat the Broncos over the stadium deal (taxpayer money and all). Somehow mention of it always maged to creep into his lampooning articles about Shanahan. He also didn’t particularly like Plummer.

But aside from that, they seem to take the business pf selling newspapers pretty seriously.

And I would say that Woody has a pro-Broncos agenda, but I agree wholeheartedly when you say that these guys seem taken by the wind most of the time….

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for hauling in the day's catch, NYC

Great work.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 6:42 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Nyc

The Chiefs need Asmani Toomer’s as they can get.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Aug 5, 2009 7:03 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Its naht a toomah!

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Krieger's article

NYC, I agree with your take in his column being meandering. I don’t know if you caught it, but if you go back to denverbroncos.com and catch the interview with Nolan in the Videos section, it clears up what Krieger is trying to say.

In fact, I would highly recommend that interview to anyone. It’s about 10 minutes of pure gold. Nolan is a coach who actually tells you something when he’s being interviewed. He’s candid and also gives some real insight into his philosophy as a DC. It’s refreshing to see a coach who will be honest and not just blow positive spin up your arse. He’s an easy guy to root for with that kind of attitude.

Bottom line: this defense is a serious unknown even to the coaching staff. There’s little, if any, real game footage of the DL. Nolan himself is still trying to figure out what he’s been handed.

This is what we wanted...
Hey, look what we got!

by pubkeeper on Aug 5, 2009 7:23 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. Nolan offers up what seem to be some very honest quotes. I did implore everyone to watch that video yesterday…

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 7:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd add...

…that one thing he WASN’T handed is Ronald Fields. That’s someone he wanted.

Given that he’ll be playing one of the 3 line positions, I’d say that our concerns should be down to two line positions and maybe the ability of the outside linebacker hybrids to cover.

One of those OLB positions — Robert Ayers — we addressed with a number 1 picks. We also still have competing for the position Crowder, a number 2; Moss, a number 1 (who seems to be floundering); Dumervil, who’s an established edge rusher; and Reid, who we were quick to sign as a free agent.

Add to that the Davis signing, and it seems to me we did quite a bit to address the front seven — namely, added 3 free agents and a number 1 draft pick, or addressed 4 out of the 7 spots. Given that DJ Williams is a lock to start, that’s now 5 of the 7 that are virtual certainties.

It seems to me that a lot of the experts would have liked us to take Orakpo instead of Moreno, and maybe Brace instead of Smith. Had we done that, they’d be saying we addressed the front seven.

But had we done that, we’d have another hybrid at about the same size as Dumervil competing with Dumerville, and another big body competing on the line with the big bodies we already have: Baker was ranked nearly as high as Brace as a potential 3-4 NT (and even better, he’d already played the position); and according to Ryan Harris, potential DEs Davis and Pedescleaux are showing real explosiveness.

By not taking Orakpo we were able to get a guy who will make the offense appreciably more dangerous (once he signs and begins playing, that is). And we also avoided a bottleneck at that rush OLB position: who’s to say Orakpo, an undersized DE, can play in space any better than Dumervil or Reid or Crowder or Moss or Barrett?

By not adding Brace, we were able to add a guy in Smith who can return kicks and play special teams while he’s being brought along as a corner — and so can contribute immediately. Would Brace have been a huge upgrade over Fields — a guy Nolan wanted? Would he have been a huge upgrade over Baker, another big body who has also played the position, and who graded out much better in the combine? Would Brace have helped the team immediately?

This has all been the same argument, again and again and again. By bringing in guys like Rulon Davis, Everette Pedescleaux, Chris Baker, and Lee Robinson, we brought in guys who are raw and talented who can be brought along at the same speed Brace would have been brought along. By not adding Brace and Orakpo, we were able to strengthen special teams, the secondary, the running game, and the passing game.

How anyone can not appreciate how we maximized value through the draft and the UDFA signings is beyond my comprehension.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 8:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it is important to note that although Nolan liked Fields enough to bring him along to Denver (or recommend that McDaniels/Xanders do so), he didn’t quite think enough of him to have him start in San Francisco over the last 2 seasons.

As for the rest, I agree Jeff; a lot of the prognosticators said that Denver had to address the front 7 in a big way leading up to the draft. In their post-draft reviews, nobody ever takes undrafted free agents into account. But really, you have to if you want to be fair and accurate. Wesley Woodyard and Brett Kern should count towards Denver’s ‘08 class. That said, we don’t actually know if Baker, Davis, Pedescleaux and/or Robinson will either make the team or succeed. Not yet, at least. Guys sound great in June/July every year only to get cut.

Because the Broncos only drafted Ayers, everyone who said the Broncos HAD to draft lots of front-7 players called Denver’s draft a failure. It’s just all so obnoxious and self-serving, really…

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whether any of the UDFAs make the team or not...

… the fact of the matter is, the front 7 was addressed.

It was also addressed in 2007 with higher draft picks, and because we have so much financially invested in some, we’ve held onto them perhaps longer than we otherwise might have.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You mean the 6 draft picks that brought back Moss and Thomas plus the $8 million in guarantees for Moss? ;-)

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That'd be them.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I groaned in agony when we made the Moss trade. We got absolutely murdered in that deal. Reggie Nelson would have been there at 21.

Fortunately, Ryan Harris played like a Top 10 overall pick last season and Thomas has been an okay starter. That draft was not a total loss by any means (thinks to Harris – whom would have been a high first round pick with hindsight).

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harris was a gem of a pick. But as you know, one or two picks a year do not a successful draft make. It’s never a good idea to put all your eggs into a very small draft basket, ala Ricky Williams or Herschel Walker. Denver could’ve had Nelson, Harris and several other players…

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope, but it was not a complete disaster like some of the drafts from 2000-2004.

Harris played like a Top 5 RT in 2008. We could easily trade him for a 1st round pick plus.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

But we’re talking about d-lineman, not o-lineman.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

please don't bring up Reggie Nelson...

(whimper)

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crowder

Don’t forget Crowder was the next DE to come off the boards after Moss and he’s making noise at training camp.

"Sanity is the realization that everyone is insane to some degree." Me

by 3nS on Aug 5, 2009 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes. As an OLB.

That makes me happy. I’d be happier still if the light switch would click on for Moss. He has the perfect size and athleticism to become a fearsome rush OLB — and had we moved up to take him in ‘07 predicated on the idea that we’d be switching to the 3-4, I’d have liked the move back then.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He is too skinny and was never a weight room guy. I’m not sure Moss wants it. Not sure he ever did.

I’m worried about Ayres being a little weak (18 reps at the combine), but at least he looks like a guy that wants to be a great player. His practice habits are excellent.

Moss… not so much

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two sides to this coin.

You may have your day in the sun if our draft picks and a few undrafted FAs make an impact early in their careers. I’ll give you full credit for driving this bandwagon on day one.

But there are folks like me that wonder if trading so much for Smith was necessary in 2009 with guys like Jack Williams or Josh Bell on the roster. Was it wise to draft two safeties for depth with picks in round 2 and 4? Was it wise to forgo drafting a coverage OLB when we don’t have one on the roster? Was it wise to draft a TE that closely resembles Dan Graham? I think we had more pressing needs than making most of our picks with the concept of addressing depth and special teams.

I will fully admit we have addressed special teams and potential future starters. There are certainly merits to our draft strategy (a plan if you will), but there are also some valid concerns.

The Coach comes from a Patriot team that has so many good starters on the roster, most of their picks address depth, even their early picks. Picking the best player available is a luxury NE has that Denver may not. KC may have reached on Tyson Jackson, but he start and fit in well in their new 3-4. Denver may have gotten good value with Smith at 37, Quinn at 64, but those guys may ride pine behind Jack Williams and Graham. And Williams and Graham are not exactly at the end of their careers are they.

I don’t hear many people suggest The Coach reached on any of his picks, but it’s also accurate to say he didn’t always pick the best available player. There were very good alternatives at positions of more pressing need with just about every pick we made. If our scouts (most of which were brand new to the Bronco organization) did a good job, Denver should be in a great team TODAY due to the strength of the 2006 and 2008 drafts.

If Denver’s player evaluation was not very good. Look out below.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

McG, I’m puzzled that you’re counting Jack Williams and Josh Bell as known quantities. Williams was not good last year, and Bell came off the scrap heap. He may not even make the team. Meanwhile, Daniel Graham is entering his 8th NFL season and going to be 31 this November. How long do you expect him to play?

Are you handing Jack Williams the nickelback job just because you’ve heard/read a couple of positive reports on him early in training camp?

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I expect Graham to play well for a few more years at least. It’s not like blocking TEs wear out at 30 or 31. They are not RBs.

Jack Williams was a pretty high draft pick and he flashed some his rookie year. As for being bad… other than Woodyard, I can’t think of one Bronco defender that looked good last year (including DJ and Elvis). Bell also got some starting PT so there is game footage of each. I’m not saying my analysis is bullet proof. It’s not. But neither is Jeffs or McDaniels.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps Graham and Quinn will be on the field at the same time a lot this year…is that not a possibility?

Williams was Denver’s second 4th-rounder. I’d call that a mid-rounder. I don’t think you should be equating your analysis (or Jeff’s) with that of McDaniels; that’s just going a bit too far.

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Possibly

Quinn and Smith were picked with the thought that Graham and Bailey and their respective large salaries may be gone in the near future. Great to hear Williams playing well but if Smith is a backup nickle cb this year that pick will be very questionable.

by AKfan on Aug 5, 2009 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends...

It doesn’t appear to me that Smith is sucking it up and costing himself the position. It seems more like Williams is playing very well and may take it from him.

The two are very different.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really what I was talking about

Agreed that if Williams wins the nickle, it sounds like he will earn it. However, trading a 1st round pick for back up nickel would not be a good thing.

by AKfan on Aug 5, 2009 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again

I am not sure because trading a 1st round pick for a backup nickel back who would be good enough to play on any other team is ok by me.

After all, we have several older corners and having young guys to take up the slack in the near future would be great. Better to be developing the talent when you are ok than to be desperate later.

Still we will see, I am not sure Smith is out of it yet.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

No idea how Smith will pan out until after we see him play for a while (like the entire season). I am guessing they expect him to be a #1 or #2 corner before too long if they were willing to give up a #1. This defense has far too many holes to be leaving talented players on the bench, while stop gaps are out there starting at other positions. Hence my speculation that the management is expecting one of the current starters to be gone in the near future (next year).

by AKfan on Aug 5, 2009 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trading

Just for kicks, would you trade Hillis for a 1st round pick? The point is, let the best man play, not where he is drafted.

by Endzone on Aug 5, 2009 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, unless it was a pretty high 1st rounder.

And I would not have drafted Moreno in round 1 knowing a stud like Hillis was already on the roster. This team has too many holes in the starting lineup to have two 1st round talents in the backfield. It’s a nice luxury, but with Cushing, Osakpo and Jenkins on the board…

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ages and the NFL

This is taken from Football Outsiders:

Running backs usually decline after age 28, tight ends after age 29, wide receivers after age 30, and quarterbacks after age 32.
This research was originally done by Doug Drinen (editor of Pro-Football-Reference.com). In recent years, a few players have had huge seasons above these general age limits (most notably Tiki Barber, Tony Gonzalez, and Corey Dillon), but the peak ages Drinen found a few years ago still apply to the majority of players.

During the summer of 2007, ESPN The Magazine asked us to research when players decline at “non-skill” positions. This research was not as rigorous as our usual work, and needs a little more attention before we’re ready to stand by it. For the curious, however, the preliminary results said that defensive ends and defensive backs generally begin to decline after age 29, linebackers and offensive linemen after age 30, and defensive tackles after age 31.

by Todd Jewell on Aug 5, 2009 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another thought, McG…

If Champ Bailey or Andre’ Goodman were to miss significant playing time in 2009, how would you feel (at this moment) about the Broncos’ chances with Jack Williams or Josh Bell starting at one of the CB spots?

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

About as good as I’d feel if Smith was starting, which is not good.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously? You mentioned yesterday that you’ve seen Smith play a lot, and that you think he’s a good player. Do you think Jack Williams is as good as him?

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

And please don’t respond with “well, he’s got a year under his belt,” because that’s exactly the argument that folks have made about Alphonso’s future versus a 2010 first-rounder that you have simply dismissed…

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Smith is a rookie. Starting rookies is scary. Clady and Royal are the exception more than the rule.

I have seen Smith play quite a bit and he’s very good. My argument, as always, is that I’d rather live with average CBs (Jack Williams) in order to have good D-linemen (say Gerald McCoy or Terrance Cody) vs having Smith at CB and McBean or Fields on the D-line.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

When you call Jack Williams an “average CB,” how do you mean that? Is he an average starting-quality corner? Is he an average backup corner? If it’s the former, I think you are going out on a gigantic limb, one bigger than the state of Colorado…

Look, I get your argument. I just think you’re making some enormous assumptions about Jack Williams and Josh Bell.

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I agree with McGeorge on this point. While we have had some uncanny success recently with rookie starters, it is darn scary.

Smith may end up being a wunderkind and all, but McGeorge’s argument holds solid merit. None of us know what is right until some football is played, but if our front 7 really does struggle (I don’t think it will, but it is a DEFINITE possibility), this pick will be second-guessed by many of us for a long time.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Aug 5, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Jack Williams is an average talent (good hands, kind of small, aggressive, raw). Only time will tell if he can be a long term player. I’ll give him more than a rookie season under Slowik playing on our disgusting 2008 defense before I label him a bust.

Jarvis Moss = bust. I’m comfortable with that label.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never called him a bust, or anything even close to that. I just don’t understand why you think the Broncos would’ve been just fine with him as the 3rd cornerback on the depth chart. Obviously, it’s possible he becomes that over the next month, but I’m dubious…

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Methinks

You’ve looped yourself around too many directions trying to read stuff into McGeorge’s posts. He didn’t insinuate that you called him a bust. He was clarifying your question regarding his meaning of average.

It is easy to think we would have been just fine with Williams as the 3rd CB…we have many other positions in worse shape for depth and need of talent. It is a valid point of view.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Aug 5, 2009 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I’m with you on both those points.

I couldn’t care less if our offense spirals down into mediocrity (it won’t), as long as our defense is better than last years.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Aug 5, 2009 5:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

His argument is that he'd rather have another rookie than this rookie

…only at a different position and a year later.

I’m not sure I follow that logic — especially coming from someone who doesn’t like to play rookies.

Because guess what: that guy we select next year? Will still be a rookie. And we still have a number one pick in a deep draft, which should enable us to find d-line talent if we need it.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes to your first sentence.

I’d rather have a talented rookie D-linemen (OR TWO) than a talented rookie CB.

I also have a long term outlook for Denver. I want them to be good in 2015, not just 2009. Who knows if The Coach will be around then, most coaches don’t last that long. The Coach has to win sooner rather than later so he went all in right off the bat.

I’m not the only one that doesn’t like the concept of trading away future unknown #1’s for #2 round picks. If you don’t like that logic, ask Mike Mayock, Gruden or Casserly to explain. They are of the same opinion as me.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

When do you expect the people you draft not to be rookies?

I would imagine it’s at least a year after they are drafted. Which means drafting Smith now allows him to become a starter sooner. Yes?

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

And get old and retire sooner. What is your point.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously guys

You need to step back and look at how you are arguing here. It is crazy what this discussion has devolved into and you aren’t doing a good job at all of supporting your points. Stop trying to tear down McGeorge’s point of view, and provide support to your side of the argument. What’s sticking out at this point is a bunch of people questioning McGeorge’s meanings and trying to read a poor point-of-view into his statements.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Aug 5, 2009 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

you’re on crack

by lolcopter on Aug 5, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me? Why?

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I realize there are folks like you, McGeorge.

What I don’t get is why you keep saying we traded “so much” for Smith. Again, the Broncos had Smith rated a first-round talent. They traded a future first round draft pick for a player who in their estimation was a present first round talent. Where the future first round pick would wind up in the draft is an unknown; what IS known is that that pick is still potential, and a year away.

Smith helps them now, in the secondary and on special teams. He is also a year ahead the player whom he was traded for — and so has the benefit of learning for an extra year from Bailey and Goodman.

The Broncos picked what they considered to be the best available player for them and for what they wanted to do, both offensively and defensively. They didn’t draft a cover OLB because they thought they found better value elsewhere. It looks to me like they believe Barrett might be able to make that transition to covering the TE. They also seemed to believe Ayers can cover, and would fit better in the scheme they wanted to run other available players. Robinson, as an undrafted free agent, was well-regarded in the specialty linebacking rankings I reviewed. But yes, OLB is my biggest concern — something I’ve freely admitted for months now.

As for my potential “day in the sun,” I’m not sure I follow. After all, this wasn’t MY draft strategy. I’m simply articulating the thinking behind someone else’s strategy (as I see it).

So I haven’t driven any bandwagons, so far as I can tell; I’ve simply asked again and again — and you never seem to answer me, curiously enough — what makes people like you think that taking Brace and Orakpo over Moreno and Smith makes us a better team in both the short term and the long term?

We already have several hybrid DE/OLB types, and we drafted in Ayers a bigger player than the one we might have drafted in Orakpo. We also got in Baker a guy similar in size to Brace — one who has played in a 3-4. And, while he didn’t play against top notch competition at Hampton and may have come out too early, he WAS recruited to play at Penn State, and he didn’t benefit from playing alongside a guy like Raji.

So why not spell out why taking a DL or DE not named Raji or Tyson Jackson would have been a better move for the Broncos — or why waiting until next year to take a DT early in a deep draft would be a better strategy that getting a ball hawk who can help on special teams immediately, immediately.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Moss

There was just so many DE in the 2007 draft that was figured to be 1st rounders. When all those went off the board Denver reached and selected Moss. No more DE were selected until Denver took Crowder in the second round. I think that was a classic case of selecting a person for the position and is a mistake that McD didn’t make. Most draft experts expected Moss to be taken later in that round but Denver moved up so that they could get the last of the 4 people they were looking at with their pick.

I’ll say this to McG next year this great DT your going to take with the Smith pick will be a rookie while Smith won’t. So according to your logic wouldn’t Smith be the better player next year?

"Sanity is the realization that everyone is insane to some degree." Me

by 3nS on Aug 5, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes. For the short term. But don’t all Bronco fans long for a stud young D-linemen to build around. How great would it be if a guy like Baker developed into the next Jamal Williams.

How great would it be to draft a Terrance Cody and know that our NT spot was locked down for the next eight years with a Pro Bowl talent.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That, to me, is the problem

You don’t know that Terrance Cody is going to develop into a Pro Bowl talent. You are taking the same risk (albeit a year later) for a position that takes longer to develop and has a higher risk of failure.

To me, your argument stands on the fact you believe we would get a “sure-fire [I say this because of your use of KNOW]” NT next year, which just can’t be said if you are being realistic.

by adamriggs on Aug 5, 2009 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair point. 1st round busts happen all the time. Jarvis Moss, Glenn Dorsey, Mike Huff, BUSTer Davis…

And 1st round busts hurt the cap.

But you don’t see many great DTs taken in the later rounds. Guys like Haynesworth, K Williams, Sapp, Ngata, Hampton, Wolfork don’t fall into the round 2. You have a better % chance of landing a good DT in round 1 than any other round.

IMO, Denver has no greater need than the need for a great D-linemen.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 6:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

So why can’t you praise the front office for taking a player they graded out as a first rounder and limiting the financial hurt if he happens to be a bust by paying him second round money?

To me, that strategy seems great (I know you will say that he isn’t a D-lineman, but that isn’t the point of my comment).

by adamriggs on Aug 5, 2009 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Funny and sad story.

In the 2007 draft, Shanahan targeted three players (Jamal Anderson, Justin Harrell and Moss). We traded up after Harrell went off the board to Green Bay.

Moss is a Bust. And guess what, so is Anderson and Harrell.

Guys like Jon Beason, Mike Griffin and Reggie Nelson were all available when we took Moss, but Shanny has his targets in that draft. Not sure he had an eye for D talent.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

NYC wrote, “When’s the last time Denver had four quality starting D-backs at the same time?”

Heck, when was the last time Denver had a free safety that could play the pass? I think you’d have to go back to the early 1990s when Dennis and Atwater were our safeties. When Nick Ferguson was your best coverage safety in the last decade, that speaks volumes (sadly). Our Pro Bowler safety, John Lynch, was great to root for but his pass defense was not good.

We’ve languished at safety for a long long time. As a U of Miami alum, Shanny broke my heart when he drafted Lelie a few picks ahead of Ed Reed.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 7:42 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

PLEASE do not bring up Ed Reed, McG. Please don’t. It hurts too much.

My thoughts exactly; Ferguson and Lynch were a pretty good duo, but that was 4 years ago. It’s unfair for Krieger to compare the recent backfields to the current one; all we need to look at are McCree, Manuel, Lowry, Abdullah, etc.

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 7:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Safety

The whole league has a stupid approach to safeties in my opinion. I will never forget when Polamalu came out and he fell to the steelers because “Safeties” aren’t that valuable.

Sheesh

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 8:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Broke Shannahan's Heart

For the record, the Steelers traded up to draft Polamalu because they knew Denver was salivating over him. Shannahan expressed great disappointment over that. It wasn’t until the last couple of years until he marginalized the S position completely.

I think many are going to be pleasently surprised by how much more solid this defense becomes just with decent S play. It absolutely killed us the last 3 years.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 5, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

My comment isn’t against Shanahan. I just remember the league poo pooing a great collegiate athlete because he was only a safety.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was just lamenting the decline of the S position in Denver.

Shannahan used to value it…I"m pretty sure Eric Brown was a second rounder of his…then Kenoy Kennedy…but the last couple years have just been awful.

I wasn’t being critical of your comment…but Iamenting that Denver WAS real hot on Polamala…and very disappointed. Who knows if he tips the balance in ’05 and Shanny has another ring to add to his legacy?

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 5, 2009 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm...

So Shanny misses out on Reed and Nelson…. and then abandons the position.

Maybe he gave up? ;)

There is no army so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he wanted to re-create Atwater...

…wasn’t at all interested in guys that couldn’t bring serious wood. When he missed a few times in the draft, he opted for steady-journeyman…and paid for it.

by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 5, 2009 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The more I see Shanny out on the road this week

the happier I am for him. He always seemed so driven and sure of himself that I often wondered how often and closely he ever looked at what the elite of the league were doing to be so successful. I’m excited to see him using this time to his advantage, calling in old favors with old friends maybe, and learning from everyone he can. Sort of flies in the face of the theory that he doesn’t bother to trifle with other people’s opinions. Good for him. I really hope he lands well and does well for himself.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'll be super-shanny when he comes back

I would bet on Shanny to take some almost -there team right in the SB when he gets a new job.

What about SD? >:)

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

I wouldn’t put it past him. He may still be loyal to Bowlen, but hey — you cut me loose, you run the risk of competing against me. ; )

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 6, 2009 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus, I think it’s laughable for Krieger to equate McDaniels’ commitment to building a secondary with that of Shanny. When’s the last time Shanny spent a high draft choice on a safety? Anyone? Anyone?

Answer: Kenoy Kennedy (2000, Rd 2) is the last safety Shanny drafted in the first 3 rounds. Eric Brown (1998, Rd 2) is the only other one.

by Douglas A. Lee on Aug 5, 2009 8:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I keep hearing about Orton’s ints. For those of you watching camp, how does Kyle look?

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 7:48 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

the camp I went to Orton looked fine — maybe a bit slow in thought process but I fully expected that at the third camp =)

Obviously he doesn’t throw the ball as hard as Cutler, but he doesn’t really need to either. I think the information about the picks [that all the QBs in our camp are throwing] is that the DB’s have been getting a lot of really good coaching, no more playing 20 yards off the line in a 3rd and 5 situation.

by Todd Jewell on Aug 5, 2009 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let’s hope Orton can figure it out really soon. Those first four games are there for the taking and if we can get off to a fast start, that should really do wonders for a young team.

If we get off to a slow start, that could really set us up for a 2009 disaster when you start to look at the middle portion of our schedule.

Random thought: This season Denver plays three teams coming off their bye week. When we come off our bye, we play another team coming off their bye week (Ravens). San Diego plays no teams coming off a bye. Seems like BS to me. How did the schedule makers allow that to happen?

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 8:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The red zone int to Williams

came in a 2-minute drill on the last play following a Williams interference call in the endzone.

The thing to remember is that the drill didn’t allow any runs. From what I heard, Williams made a good break on the ball and picked it off and went the other way.

On the other Williams pick, I can’t speak to the particulars.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bad throw by Simms

and Williams made the play on the ball.

I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.

by SlamDunkTheFunk on Aug 5, 2009 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Playing teams coming off their by week

FWIW, teams off their bye were 19-13 last year.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 5, 2009 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

slow vs. fast start

Could not agree more. It’s a little scary coming out of the gates into a soft opening schedule with a young team. If they muck it up, we can only hope that some of the later teams go to sleep on us.

Of course, basing this years toughness of schedule on last year’s records is a fools errand. But right now, I’m feeling pretty foolish. ; )

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its camp

There has been a lot of TDs and a lot of INTs. A lot of that is dependant on what the coaches are trying to teach and install during those moments. I’ll wait till preseason games to really get a feel for how positions are panning out.

"Sanity is the realization that everyone is insane to some degree." Me

by 3nS on Aug 5, 2009 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs