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Denver Broncos Training Camp 2009 - A Progress Report

Mhr_trainingcamp_2009_medium
Training Camp in the National Football League may seem like a long time, but in reality it lasts 21 days - 3 weeks.  27 total workouts are scheduled.  When this morning's practice concludes, the Broncos will be 1/3 of the way done with this year's training camp (Workout #9).  It's a good time to take a look at some things, as well as dispel any misconceptions, at least in my view.

THE GOOD

Xt Peyton Hillis - While many in the MSM thought Hillis could be in trouble when the Broncos signed all the RB free agents, then drafted Knowshon Moreno, those of us here at MHR knew better.  We knew that Hillis was way too versatile for the Broncos just to dump off the roster.  If anything, the Patriots have always been about versatility, and Hillis might be the most versatile player on the roster.  Hillis had to prove he was healthy, however, to really grab hold of a roster spot.  Hillis has done that and MUCH more.  Hillis has shown the best hands of anyone at camp, he has played a physical style of football that Josh McDaniels wants from his football team, and most importantly, he can play multiple positions effectively.   As Camp has gone on, Hillis has gotten more and more time in single-back sets.  Josh McDaniels is going to find a way to get the ball to #22.

Star-divide

Mckinley_kenny_mug09_mediumKenny McKinley - Not much attention was paid to McKinley when he was drafted in the 5th round of the 2009 Draft, but people weren't very fond of the Eddie Royal selection in the 2nd round in 2008 (well, some at MHR liked it).  I bring up Royal because McKinley might just be 2009's version of Royal.  So far this camp McKinley has been a solid route runner and shown great hands.  He can also return punts and kicks, or play as a gunner on punt coverage.  In other words, McKinley has shown the versatility that is going to become a staple of the Broncos roster.  With Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Gaffney, et al, the Broncos are putting together a deep receiving corps.

XtJack Williams - When the Broncos traded up to draft Alphonso Smith in the 2nd round, everyone assumed Smith would take hold of the nickel-corner position.  Someone forgot to tell Jack Williams, a 4th-rounder out of Kent State in 2008.  Williams is a lot like Smith, and so far has held Smith to special teams duty.  Williams is still rough around the edges but he is aggressive and has a knack for getting to the football.  

As the pre-season rolls along, especially the games, I'll add a "Not-so-Good" section.  Right now, however, it is pointless to do because we don't know the focus of the drills and just what the coaching staff is expecting the players to do.  I do have a couple random thoughts -


Milehighreport_small_medium Don't put much weight into news you hear about a player throwing interceptions, or a player picking off a pass.  Many of these situational drills are played in a vacuum.  For instance, you heard a lot about Jack Williams taking a pass 99-yards for a TD.  It happened during a 2-minute drill in which no runs were allowed.  We also have no idea if Kyle Orton was told to only look at his #1 receiver, or if Orton was not permitted to check down.  Those things happen all the time. 

An interception, or great play by the offense or defense really says little at this time of year.  These guys are learning a new offense, and just like hitters being ahead of pitchers early in a baseball season, the defenses are usually ahead of the offenses during Training Camp.  In other words, it is nice to know but doesn't concern or excite me either way.

Milehighreport_small_mediumYou'll hear a lot that the Broncos did nothing to address their Front-7.  Something to keep in mind:  while there weren't any big name free agents or high draft picks added to the group, Josh McDaniels has quietly added something pretty important to his defense - size. 

In 2008, with the Broncos in a 4-3 defense, the starters (Ekuban, Robertson, Thomas, Dumervil) averaged 287 pounds along the line, 236 pounds at linebacker (Bailey, Williams, Webster).  They were predicated on speed, but ultimately, because of the lack of size and power up front, the unit was pushed around, especially in the run game.

Heading into 2009, the Broncos added bulk to both units.  Along the D-line, the starting unit averages 302 pounds (+15 with McBean, Thomas, Peterson), while the linebackers average 256 pounds (+20 with Dumervil, Davis, Williams, Ayers).  Sure, they have given up some speed with the likes of Andra Davis, but the extra size should help, especially in the running game.

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Williams interception

We know it was a pass only drill for the offense, but did the defense know that?

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 5, 2009 11:46 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I guess my point is this...

I don’t put much weight into practice INT’s either way. Just my opinion….

-TSG

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by John Bena on Aug 5, 2009 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

do you think that they didn't notice a lack of runs?

I wasn’t there, so I really don’t know. I guess they could have just started the drill.

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Aug 5, 2009 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks John.

Good points all around. Can’t wait for the preseason games to start seeing these guys in action. We’ll know more then.

by NedBronco on Aug 5, 2009 11:47 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Can't wait for the Pre-season to start and for the depth chart to come out.

"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".

"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.

by broncoholic on Aug 5, 2009 11:54 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Guru

Good take on Hillis, McKinley and JMFW. Personally, I’m very excited to see how McD uses Hillis this year. Can’t wait for the game at SF next week to see the team in action for the first time. I assume Simms will take most of the snaps at QB if the first team only plays a few series.

by MacGuffin on Aug 5, 2009 12:00 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Missing our camp eyeball

John (guru).. since you left, there has been nothing of viable information from camp. I guess all the campers went home when you did.

We are really sorry you had to go home

by DLMyers on Aug 5, 2009 12:01 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

It has been pretty bland...

but that’s ok, camp will be over before you know it and the real football will begin!

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605

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by John Bena on Aug 5, 2009 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the update. I’m excited to see this McKinley fellow on game day.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 12:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The Bad:

Jarvis Moss going AWOL.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 12:06 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

That goes without saying....

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
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Call Me! (303)731-5605

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by John Bena on Aug 5, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Aug 5, 2009 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

pow! zing!

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 8:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

reiteration

McKinley really surprised me at camp — his hands seemed solid and he was a willing and able blocker [against a CB at least =)].

by Todd Jewell on Aug 5, 2009 12:10 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree with all your points

Hillis has really distinguished himself out there.

Kenny has played well and JMFW has been solid. Our secondary looks to be in good shape. I will keep my figers crossed about BDawk going off the field yesterday. I still think Smith will progress as camp moves along and ends up with the nickle spot, but it will be a tight competition.

I also think T. Crowder has improved is game and is playing hard.

by DBronx777 on Aug 5, 2009 12:20 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

I like the reports about Crowder I’ve read too.

This is what we wanted...
Hey, look what we got!

by pubkeeper on Aug 5, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

He was the shocker of early on-season, for me anyway.

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Aug 5, 2009 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great summary

And as always, I appreciate your wait-and-see approach. As William Goldman was famous for saying, “Nobody knows nothing.” This time of year, when all we have are glimpses from camp and prognostications based on vapor, all we can really do is hope for the best.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 12:29 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Nobody know nothing

Nolan said as much, too, in his interview the other day.

This is what we wanted...
Hey, look what we got!

by pubkeeper on Aug 5, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was good to see him take some questions

There were some valuable insights there into what they’re trying to do. Hope it works out.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for your reporting and insight

But I would opine that while we weren’t very big on defense last year, we also weren’t all that fast.

It's "just" football

by Donkhead on Aug 5, 2009 1:10 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

On an unrelated note (well....semi-related I guess),

where the hell is Moreno? Don’t you think if he was getting close to a deal we’d be hearing murmurs by now? What is the freakin’ holdup?

"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!

by PosterNutbag on Aug 5, 2009 1:34 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ll try again

The Bad:

The Moreno holdout.

Love the Broncos, don't like their Coach.

by McGeorge on Aug 5, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sad State

And it isn’t just Moreno there are several guys still holding out. Even KC’s guy.

I guess it could always be worse, we could have Moreno in camp and be watching him drop every pass thrown his way…

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

shhhhh

No jinxie.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Worries

it was a subtle slam on the Raiders.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 8:58 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Aug 5, 2009 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

hah!

nicely executed : )

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

picks holding out

There’s been a logjam around Moreno’s pick. Oakland may have messed it up by being too generous with DHB but Crabtree was also holding out for higher than expected money, as was Smith, last I heard.

[AUGUST 4]

1. Matthew Stafford QB Detroit Signed 6 years, $72 million ($41.7M guaranteed)
2. Jason Smith OT St. Louis Signed 5 years, $61.775 million ($33M guaranteed)
3. Tyson Jackson DE Kansas City Unsigned
4. Aaron Curry LB Seattle Unsigned

5. Mark Sanchez QB N.Y. Jets Signed 5 years, $60 million ($28M guaranteed)
6. Andre Smith OT Cincinnati Unsigned
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Oakland Signed 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
8. Eugene Monroe OT Jacksonville Unsigned
9. B.J. Raji DT Green Bay Unsigned
10. Michael Crabtree WR San Francisco Unsigned
11. Aaron Maybin DE Buffalo Unsigned
12. Knowshon Moreno RB Denver Unsigned

13. Brian Orakpo DE Washington Signed 5 years, $20 million ($12.1M guaranteed)
14. Malcolm Jenkins CB New Orleans Unsigned
15. Brian Cushing LB Houston Signed 5 years, $14 million ($10.44M guaranteed)
16. Larry English DE San Diego Signed 5 years, $17.8 million ($9.9M guaranteed)
17. Josh Freeman QB Tampa Bay Signed 5 years, $36 million (10.25M guaranteed)
18. Robert Ayers LB Denver Signed 5 years SIGNED
19. Jeremy Maclin WR Philadelphia Signed 5 years, $15.5 million ($9.5M guaranteed)
20. Brandon Pettigrew TE Detroit Signed 5 years, $14.6 million ($9.4M guaranteed)
21. Alex Mack C Cleveland Signed 5 years, $15 million ($8.3M guaranteed)
22. Percy Harvin WR Minnesota Signed 5 years, $14.25 million ($8.4M guaranteed)
23. Michael Oher OT Baltimore Signed 5 years, $13 million ($7.82M guaranteed)
24. Peria Jerry DT Atlanta Signed 5 years, $13.25 million ($7.55M guaranteed)
25. Vontae Davis CB Miami Signed 5 years, $13.3 million ($7.35M guaranteed)
26. Clay Matthews LB Green Bay Signed 5 years, $13.2 million ($7.1M guaranteed)
27. Donald Brown RB Indianapolis Signed 5 years, $12.8 million ($6.8M guaranteed)
28. Eric Wood C Buffalo Signed 5 years, $13 million ($6.5M guaranteed)
29. Hakeem Nicks WR N.Y. Giants Signed 5 years, $12.54 million ($6M guaranteed)
30. Kenny Britt WR Tennessee Signed 5 years, $12.25 million ($6.5M guaranteed)
31. Chris “Beanie” Wells RB Arizona Signed 5 years, $11.8 million ($6.345M guaranteed)
32. Evander “Ziggy” Hood DT Pittsburgh Signed 5 years, $11.3 million ($6.1M guaranteed)

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Aug 5, 2009 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't say I blame KC for not caving to Jackson yet

Wasn’t like he was really a value pick for them.

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say we're in the best shape

Of all the teams with a first round hold out. It’s probably easier for a RB to get up to speed than any of those other positions. Plus, we’ve got a lot of good options at RB so Moreno can take it slow.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 6, 2009 5:38 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

It is also hard to blame the organization when you look at that chart.

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 6, 2009 6:54 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess

is that a lot of the problems with signings this year is the uncertainty about the collective bargaining agreement and all that.

The sage is full of anxiety and indecision in undertaking anything, and so he is always successful.

Chuang - Tzu

by bradley on Aug 6, 2009 7:44 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

slotted salaries

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Why-players-hold-out.html

Many agents, and even teams, hate doing deals until they get to see what deals or slots came in above or below them. They simply hate looking bad among their peers since early deals can be easily leap-frogged by later deals. So if an agent’s deal is inferior to others in the same round, his competitors will use it against him while recruiting next year’s class of clients. What happens is that everybody waits until the last minute.
The position premium
Many times, if an agent has a player drafted in the first round – let’s say a quarterback with the 10th pick — the agent will make a case that he’s worth more than slots 9, 8 and/or 7 because he’s a QB. The team doesn’t like it because it has only allocated formulated cap dollars based on the slot, not the player’s position. But I personally believe that sometimes the slotting system has to be thrown out for QBs. I also think the agent for WR Michael Crabtree is trying to make the case that the slotting theory doesn’t apply to his client because he’s a special receiver who would have been a top three pick if he were not injured before the draft. I don’t see a problem with his position, but I’m sure the 49ers will.

We’re dealing with a logjam that’s partly the result of Oakland’s signing of Darrius Heyward-Bey, which created upward pressure on the salaries for surrounding picks.
Salaries are ‘bracketed,’ i.e., calculated largely by how much is paid to players at surrounding picks (or based on last year’s pick at that spot plus an increase). The other factors causing the logjam are the positional premiums, such as the higher contract paid to Sanchez, a QB, and the demand by Crabtree to be paid at a the level of a higher pick.

There’s a little ‘apples and oranges’ problem (fungibility) since slotting presumes a neat ordering of salaries whereas the anomalous salary demands of those mentioned here break with that neat ordering. Mathematically speaking, I’m reminded of an artistic work by M. C. Escher, since there is no impetus to settle for less than an infinite sum if we take these incomparable demands to their logical extension. The math is one thing, but they have to sign or they aren’t paid anything — of course.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/the-standoff-begins.html

The above article by agent Jack Bechta gives some information on slotting.

"If people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences". W. I. Thomas

by Colinski on Aug 6, 2009 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice writeup, Guru

… as we’ve all come to expect, I might add.

Josh McDaniels is going to find a way to get the ball to #22.

I don’t think McD realized what he had in Hillis when he first arrived, now I think he’s so giddy he probably just starts giggling to himself in his private moments thinking about how to use him.

Someone forgot to tell Jack Williams

Let me state here and now that I said Josh Bell would take JMFW’s roster spot…. and it looks like I couldn’t have been more wrong. This is how a pro does his job: when he’s threatened by a newcomer, he steps it up. Good for him! You can see he has clearly responded to the change in philosophy from “playing soft” (Dre Bly quote) to playing aggressive.

I completely agree with your point about playing in a vacuum. In your example about Jack taking it back, it’s just good that he completed the play. Even in a vacuum, he still needs to finish… and get used to doin it, heh.

Appreciate the coverage, John.

This is what we wanted...
Hey, look what we got!

by pubkeeper on Aug 5, 2009 1:39 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

speaking of finishing....

I heard Goodman talking about how even on incomplete passes the defense is coached to go after the ball on the ground — just to get use to the feel of picking it up, falling on it, knowing how it’ll bounce, etc.

Good idea, I think.

by JeffG on Aug 5, 2009 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice!

A Broncos defense getting familiar with holding the football. Now that is a novel concept. ; )

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya

In the past the closest they ever got was probably a picture during a slideshow presentation by the coaches.

Coaches: “Gentlemen, this is a football”

Defense: “OOH…Aahh”

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Champ: See!! I told you!! You can GRAB them!!

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya, he was probably trying

to draw pictures of the football in the dirt during halftime last year.

Champ: “Guys this is what you need to go after. See is it kinda like a ball but pointy here and over here.”

Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.

by Kfustud on Aug 5, 2009 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Player Weights

What are the latest player weights that you are tracking for the front 7 players?

Also, which players have increased their weight the most?

Thanks for the time that you put into keeping us up to date.

by Orange Crush II on Aug 5, 2009 1:46 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I pulled the weights...

for 2008 from Pro Football Reference. For this year, I used the weights from the Media Guide….

For players that were here last year there really wasn’t any one big change(at least on paper). The big differences were bringing in Andra Davis to replace Nate Webster, for example.

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

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by John Bena on Aug 5, 2009 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the end our season last year

all our defensive guys (as well as offensive) were lighter. They had all lost weight throughout the year. Whether it was fat or muscle is debatable, but losing as much weight as they did is never good. So the numbers you posted up were actually aiming higher than what they really were towards the end.

Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.

by Joe Medina on Aug 5, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did detailed fan post last week

Here It listed all the weights of every front seven play and then does some basic math. I saved last year openings day roster from denverbroncos.com and then the opening of camp roster from the same.

The weight gain is mostly due to the change in scheme. The lighter DE’s are now linebackers and every DL weigh near or above the 300 pound range. So instead of two DT’s at 300 plus, two DE’s at 250-275 and three linebackers at 220-250 we now have three DL’s at 300+, two OLB ab 250-275 and two ILB at 220 to 250

by DBinKC on Aug 5, 2009 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the great summary

This is so much better than you can get from any MSM outlet!

Here’s hoping that Jack WIlliams and McKinley keep up the pace, and become some of our next round of heroes.

"Remember, it's only a game."

by robswenson on Aug 5, 2009 3:41 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

hi

i can’t wait for the games to start either ! btw you guys will have the 32nd and last ranked defense in the league with nolan for a defensive coordinator !!! sorry guys !!!

by rob_ on Aug 5, 2009 3:48 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't feed the troll

"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway

by jibbons on Aug 5, 2009 4:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am going to have to save my pennies and splurge on a Hillis jersey this year...

my first jersey purchase since Elway………

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Aug 5, 2009 4:10 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good choice Zappa

I got a Royal for my first ever, but a #22 would be very good also.
PS If you are into bargains, you can get a Cutler for 50% off. hehehe

It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09

by firstfan on Aug 5, 2009 7:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or a Travis Henry

K Mart $8.99.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

by KaptainKirk on Aug 5, 2009 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow! Great Idea for a new Jersey

Finally going to replace my TD jersey. Man I loved the way he ran

I ride the short bus!

by scottwchicago on Aug 5, 2009 7:26 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

trolls

i’m hungry !!!

by rob_ on Aug 5, 2009 4:18 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

(hands you a sock)

"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes

by broncosmontana on Aug 5, 2009 8:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha!

Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just how in the world do you think it got to be this old?
— Anon

Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw

by Choochoobonewagon on Aug 6, 2009 2:31 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about your foot? Oh wait . . . its already in your mouth. Troll!!

"The men who have done big things are those who are not afraid to attempt big things, who were not afraid to risk failure in order to gain success."
- B.C Forbes

by HSFBCoach on Aug 6, 2009 7:21 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

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