The Pro Football Hall of Fame; An Opinion
There is much angst in Broncoland about the apparent snubbing of Bronco greats in the Hall of Fame. There are charges of East Coast Bias or conspiracy against the Denver Broncos in general. There is even tremendous infighting amongst ourselves on which Broncos deserve this honor and which just weren't good enough.
The problem is, we are so starved for Hall of Fame recognition that we are willing to sell our own great players short by including very good players in the same breath. The Hall of Fame should be reserved for the truly All-Time greats alone, and for this reason I agree with those who say the Hall of Fame is called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. As fans we must ensure that we uphold the tenets of the sport above all else, even our own homerish bias towards Bronco players.
That said, we must also not sell ourselves short in any way. I have seen many fans be too stingy in their reservation for which Bronco greats are Hall of Fame worthy. There must be a balance. I offer my own system for categorizing Bronco greats in lieu of my own bias opinions. My system integrates an honest unbiased look at each players contribution to the game which include stats, championships, impact on the team and sport, and quality of character. Those who actually have the votes do not necessarily look at these things, but I feel these attributes display the kind of qualities and characteristics necessary for any player to be considered an all-time great.
For the all-time Bronco greats, I have broken these players into three tiers. The first tier I simply call, Insults. The reason for that is that their not being in the Hall of Fame is a direct slap in the face of all Bronco fans and the entire sport in general.
The second tier I call, Deserving. Meaning their total embodiment of work more than warrants a vote into the Hall of Fame. By them not being in does not necessarily mean it is insulting, but there should be no reason for them not getting into the Hall in the future. These players, if not voted in, would eventually make it into the "Insults" tier.
The third tier is the Good but not Great. This appears to be insulting, but what I really mean by it is that these players were very good. Though I do not believe they were quite good enough to be considered an all-time great. So when fans put their names up for Hall of Fame snubs, what those fans are really doing is selling the guys in the first two tiers short and thereby hurting the chances they have at receiving the necessary votes to be inducted.
I will now put our Bronco greats into each tier and explain why I think they belong where I put them.
1. Randy Gradishar
The greatest Hall of Fame insult to Denver Bronco fans should be Randy Gradishar. He was considered the leader and anchor of the renowned Orange Crush Defense of the 1970's and early 1980's. I don't want to go into who is in the Hall already and how insulting it is that Gradishar is not, but for this case alone I must. The reason I must go this route is simple; you will see why there is an East Coast Bias and why it is our own fault it exists.
My case study will be Harry Carson. A great linebacker for the New York Giants. He played thirteen seasons and helped his team to a Super Bowl title. His career stats are 173 games, 11 interceptions, one touchdown, with 9 Pro Bowls and 8 All-NFC honors. Although he had never won the NFL Defensive Player of the Year award, he was selected team captain for the Giants for ten consecutive seasons. That is an impressive resume for sure.
Now he faced many years of waiting and much of the same ridicule that Randy Gradishar has faced since his retirement. Harry Carson even went so far as to demand that his name be removed from the voting process in protest. That and the actions of his supporters would eventually convince enough voters that he was Hall of Fame worthy. Personally, I think he was the Tom Jackson to Randy Gradishar or the Bart Scott to Ray Lewis. A very good talent that benefited greatly from the superior talent around him. How much of Carson's success really came from an opposing teams attention being pointed Lawrence Taylor's way?
That said, Harry Carson was a true leader of a Super Bowl winning defense. So why is it that a guy like Randy Gradishar who has an impressive resume of his own that shows he played in 145 games, with 20 interceptions, 3 returned for touchdowns(including a 93 yard scamper in 1980), 7 Pro Bowls, 7 All-AFC honors, the 1978 NFL Defensive Player of the Year and team captain for much of his career. That resume is every bit as impressive as Harry Carson's and the only major difference is that one guy has a ring while the other came close.
Well that's not true either. The one deciding factor between why Carson is in the Hall of Fame and Gradishar is not is this; Harry Carson had an army of angry New Yorkers who basically demanded that he get inducted into the Hall. Which leads me to believe that we, as fans, have utterly failed Randy Gradishar. Sure we have angst and anger of his snubbing, but really, how much farther does it go from the random message board or an angry fan spot on MHR? We prefer to complain rather than to take action. We have done that for 25 years now. I have a hunch that, because of websites like Milehighreport.com and the committees spawned from it, this injustice will be corrected and Randy Gradishar will be enshrined within the next couple of years.
The biggest obstacle from voters when it comes to Randy Gradishar is his so-called tackle stats as kept by the Denver Broncos organization. The Main Stream Media(MSM) refuses to acknowledge those stats nor does the NFL itself. It is counterproductive for us to tout something not accepted by anyone but ourselves. There is only one way to bypass this obstacle.
My suggestion is for us to accept the official stats only. DenverBroncos.com needs to remove the tackle stats attributed to Gradishar from their website and focus on the official stats. I will no longer acknowledge Gradishar's tackle stats. I don't need too. His official stats are more the enough to get him enshrined into the Hall of Fame. Harry Carson's own website, linked above, doesn't display the tackle stats, so by doing this we will remove all of the ammunition naysayers have used against Gradishar since he became eligible.
Then we, as a united community, need to become more vocal and indignant about Gradishar's exclusion from the Hall of Fame. We will win this fight because we are right and this injustice, this INSULT, to all Bronco fans and the entire Sport will be rectified.
2. Floyd Little
Floyd Little may be number two on my list of insults, but this guy is surpassed only by John Elway in terms of importance to our franchise and its history. I was born three full years after Little's retirement, but there is no question how long lasting of an impact his career has had on our team. His stats were pretty elite in his day, but have since been surpassed by many modern era players.
I would argue that he helped redefine the game itself. He didn't just run the ball, return kicks, and receive passes. He helped bridge the gap between the average fan and the players. He helped define a super stars role outside the game. Floyd Little was a model citizen who carried the burden of playing for a perennial loser, while gaining Pro Bowl caliber stats while being the Broncos only offensive threat for much of his career.
He was selected to five Pro Bowls and led the NFL in rushing and yards from scrimmage for six consecutive years(1968-1973). He was also named Running Back of the Year in 1972, yet he is rarely even considered for the Hall of Fame anymore. For those of you who have been around here for less than a year, I really urge you to read a post I submitted last May that was mostly written by our esteemed Firstfan, who happens to be one of Floyd Little's most outspoken supporters. His tale of Floyd Little puts anything I have to say to shame.
Also, if you agree with me that Floyd Little has waited long enough for Hall of Fame enshrinement, then please sign this petition along with thousands of others who have already done so.
| Floyd Little's Career Stats | ||||||||||
| Rushing Stats | Receiving Stats | |||||||||
| Games | ATT | YDS | AVG | LG | TD | REC | YDS | AVG | LG | TD |
| 117 | 1641 | 6323 | 3.9 | 80 | 43 | 215 | 2418 | 11.2 | 74 | 9 |
| Punt Returns | Kick Returns | |||||||||
| Games | RET | YDS | AVG | LG | TD | RET | YDS | AVG | LG | TD |
| 117 | 81 | 893 | 11 | 72 | 2 | 104 | 2523 | 24.3 | 89 | 0 |
| Total All Purpose Yards: 12,157 | ||||||||||
3. Shannon Sharpe
Shannon Sharpe is an insult because he was not a first ballot Hall of Famer. Sports Writers' have decided he is more of a wide receiver than a tight end. This is a frightening development considering it is blatant revisionist history and must not be tolerated as an argument by any football fan. Sharpe lined up as a tight end for most of his career and it was his versatility that allowed the coaching staffs to scheme him in various roles. The Hall of Fame voters are taking Shannon Sharpe's biggest strength and using it as a weapon to keep him out of the sacred halls of Canton. There is no bigger insult.
I agree that Sharpe was a "tweener", with attributes of both a tight end and a wide receiver. That is what made him one of the most deadliest offensive threats available to John Elway for the better part of a decade. Linebackers were too slow to cover him, cornerbacks and safeties were too small to match up against him, and opposing defensive coordinators were mostly unable to stop him. How many wide receivers can claim that? How many tight ends can claim that? The answer is not many.
Shannon Sharpe is a member of an elite group of players that were a force on the field of play. That alone is what defines a Hall of Fame caliber player. You cannot write the entire history of the NFL without mentioning Shannon Sharpe, he built upon the new role of a tight end that was begun by Kellen Winslow. Winslow started a trend away from the traditional role of a tight end, while Sharpe shattered that tradition and cemented the role of the tight end that would spawn future Pro Bowlers like Tony Gonzalez, Dallas Clark, and Jason Witten.
To add to that, Shannon Sharpe has stats that go beyond just simple numbers. Such as, 490 of his 815 catches went for first downs. What is the job of a tight end in the passing game? Yep, you guessed it! Get first downs! Shannon Sharpe also had just 7 fumbles in his entire fourteen year career. Shannon Sharpe's yard per catch only fell below 10 once in his career and that was in 1999 when he missed all but five games that season. No matter how you slice it, he has the body of work that epitomizes what the Hall of Fame is looking for at his position.
How many tight ends can boast an 82 yard touchdown pass? How many tight ends can boast 10,000 career receiving yards? How many tight ends can boast of blocking for a 2000 yard rusher? How many tight ends can boast of having over 60 touchdown catches in their career? And finally, how many tight ends can boast of 8 Pro Bowls, 5 All-Pro selections, 3 Super Bowl rings, and a selection to an All-Decade team?
I'm sorry for all of the rhetorical questions, but these are questions that voters NEED to ask themselves during the 2010 voting process. I don't want to hear that Sharpe will eventually get into the Hall. I want him into the Hall of Fame NOW, anything less is unacceptable. The gauntlet has been laid and the battle is already underway. This is one fight we must win. Shannon Sharpe will not be passed up again.
| Shannon Sharpe's Career Stats | |||||||||
| GS | REC | YDS | AVG | LG | TD | 20+ | 40+ | 1ST | FUM |
| 204 | 815 | 10,060 | 12.3 | 82T | 62 | 134 | 17 | 490 | 7 |
1. Steve Atwater
One of the bigger problems with the Hall of Fame process is that some positions are harder to get in than others. Two of those neglected positions are tight end and safety. For whatever reason, this is the case. Unfortunately for Bronco fans, two of our best candidates each play those respective positions. Shannon Sharpe was to the tight end position that Steve Atwater was to the safety position.
This time, the knock on Steve Atwater was that he couldn't play in coverage very well. Any Bronco fan would tell you this was not true. Sure he didn't intercept passes well, but he broke up a lions share of passes during his career. Take John Lynch for example. He is supposedly a sure fire Hall of Famer, but his stats are relatively similar to Atwater's, in fact, Atwater outperforms Lynch in several key categories. Also Steve played for just eleven seasons, Lynch for fourteen, yet Atwater finished with 100 more tackles in his career. John Lynch had one more Pro Bowl appearance, but Atwater was selected to the 1990's All Decade team over John Lynch. Both we selected to the first team All-Pro twice, but Steve Atwater has one more Super Bowl ring.
Comparison's aside, both men deserve to be honored in Canton as both were dominating at their positions for their entire careers. Atwater, by virtue of being around before Lynch, should be elected into the Hall of Fame sooner.
One of Atwater's better performances came during Super Bowl XXXII. If there were to be a co-MVP for that game it would undoubtedly have to be Steve Atwater. He had six solo tackles, a sack, forced fumble, and two pass defenses and was a major factor in the Packers frustrated inability to move the ball consistently. Memories of his play bring up bone crushing hits and a game intensity few safeties have exhibited in the modern era.
I just have a feeling that Steve Atwater will be snubbed; as the safety position, for whatever reason, is such a hard position to get inducted.
2. Terrell Davis
Terrell Davis must and will get into the Hall of Fame. It is only a matter of time. There is little doubt that he was one of the best running backs of all-time, but getting into the Hall of Fame is also about longevity and one fateful interception in 1999 ruined his career. One guy that comes to mind is Eric Dickerson. He waited a long time before he was finally inducted into the Hall of Fame, even though the guy still holds the all-time best season for a running back.
The argument here is that TD was unstoppable and after his injury the world saw that it wasn't just the Denver Broncos offensive line that was dominating. No running back was able to even come close to matching TD's total dominance during that three year period. Sure the Broncos had 1000 yard rushers and one guy even reached 1500, but none of them scored twenty touchdowns nor surpassed 1600 yards rushing. Terrell Davis is also one of only three running backs in NFL history to have rushed for 1000 yards in just the first seven games of a season, joining Jim Brown(1958) and O.J. Simpson(1973, 1975) as the only other running backs to have ever matched that mark.
In my mind, if TD isn't inducted by his 10th year of eligibility then he will move into the Insult list. Voters cannot deny the impact he made on the game. The zone blocking scheme became legendary and successful because of his running during that four year period. Without TD, the game would be significantly different than it would be today. To prove my point, watch this video. The guy was a man among boys when he was on the field, which defines what a Hall of Famer is in my mind.
| Terrell Davis' Career Stats | |||||||||||
| Rushing Stats | Receiving Stats | ||||||||||
| Year | G | Att | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD | Rec | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD |
| 1995 | 14 | 237 | 1117 | 4.7 | 60T | 7 | 49 | 367 | 7.5 | 31 | 1 |
| 1996 | 16 | 345 | 1538 | 4.5 | 71T | 13 | 36 | 310 | 8.6 | 23 | 2 |
| 1997 | 15 | 369 | 1750 | 4.7 | 50T | 15 | 42 | 287 | 6.8 | 25 | 0 |
| 1998 | 16 | 392 | 2008 | 5.1 | 70 | 21 | 25 | 217 | 8.7 | 35 | 2 |
| 1999 | 4 | 67 | 211 | 3.1 | 26 | 2 | 3 | 26 | 8.7 | 10 | 0 |
| 2000 | 5 | 78 | 282 | 3.6 | 24 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2.0 | 5 | 0 |
| 2001 | 8 | 167 | 701 | 4.2 | 57 | 0 | 12 | 69 | 5.8 | 16 | 0 |
| Career | 78 | 1655 | 7607 | 4.6 | 71T | 60 | 169 | 1280 | 7.6 | 35 | 5 |
3. Dan Reeves
This final position in my rankings was a tough one to fill. There are many players, especially from that vaunted Orange Crush defense, that could deserve to be in this spot. For now however, after much consideration, Dan Reeves deserves his due.
The man, along with John Elway, took what should have been a hapless Denver Bronco team to three Super Bowls in the 1980's. Those games ended in defeat, but the fact that we were even there gives credit to a quarterback and coach for winning games they had no business winning in the first place. I even recently wrote a Fanpost arguing for Dan Reeves to be inducted into the Ring of Fame.
After the turbulent relationship between Elway and Reeves ended in the early 90's with Dan Reeves being fired, Reeves would go on to coach the Giants and Falcons. He arrived in Atlanta in 1996, following a 3-13 season for the Falcons. Two years later, Reeves was coaching against Elway in the Super Bowl. He lost 34-19, but again he took a team that had no business even being there.
Dan Reeves currently has 201 victories as a head coach in the regular season and playoffs. Though Dan Reeves may be done coaching, he recently interviewed for the San Francisco 49ers offensive coordinator job, so we may have yet seen the last of him in the NFL.
This final selection will anger some and I know full well that there are at least a half dozen former Bronco greats that could easily be argued into this spot, but I felt strongly enough to give this recognition to Dan Reeves. I will be the first to admit that I didn't much like Dan Reeves in the early 1990's and I even laughed in glee when we whooped on him in the 1998 Super Bowl, but since that time I have grown ever more fond of Dan Reeves and the amazing job he did coaching the 1980's Broncos to three Super Bowls. I became a fan during that time and I always attributed it to John Elway, but in rare moments of honestly with myself, it becomes apparent that Dan Reeves had as much to do with my fandom as John Elway. At least early on.
The hardest part of writing this piece, was coming up with a list I felt good about. An impossible task for a fan like me to take on. There are so many guys I want to include, but I forced myself to stick to this format over the several months I have been putting this together.
I wish so much that I could have included guys like(but not limited to): Goose Gonsoulin, Lionel Taylor, Tombstone Jackson, Billy Thompson, Louis Wright, Tom Jackson, Haven Moses, Dennis Smith, or Karl Mecklenburg. I would even say that Pat Bowlen is deserving.
If there was one guy named above that I truly regret not putting on my list of six, it would be Lionel Taylor. I actually had him at Dan Reeves' spot, but I had a crisis of conscience that sparked me to go with Dan instead. I can't say for certain that this was the right decision, but if one of those guys gets selected to the Hall of Fame next season, then I can say unequivocally that Lionel Taylor gets bumped up to that list. If you disagree, then read the bio on I wrote on the man.
As for the guys I selected for this elite list. Randy Gradishar and Floyd Little easily top the list as the biggest insults to the Franchise and its fans and more than that, their omissions represent a glaring red mark on the entire League. That mark will remain until this travesty is undone. Shannon Sharpe ranked third only because he has only been insulted once. I believe he will be the first on this list to be enshrined, but he had better be the first of several Broncos inducted over the next decade.
Steve Atwater will not likely get in for whatever asinine reason journalists give when it comes to safetys. Terrell Davis had better get in within the next ten years. Perhaps a wait like Eric Dickerson is justified, but there is no denying how dominate TD was in his time. And finally, Dan Reeves. He was my most difficult selection, but he did as much to change the face of the Denver Broncos from the fledgling talent of the late 70's to the perennial winner of today.
Now I would like to see your two sets of three. It's not as easy as you might think.
And it is great to be back on MHR everyday!!
12 recs |
112 comments
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Comments
I voted "Other"
Because I think they are all worthy. =)
It is admirable that you, firstfan, and the others on your committee have undertaken to lobby on behalf of these players. I do not envy you your task, and I wish you success.
Great write up Zappa.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."
by KaptainKirk on Aug 8, 2009 1:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The committee has a post coming out in the next day or so...
They are doing some great research and planning. We fans will have some players to cheer for on Hall of Fame day in the coming years for sure!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are all great contributers to the nfl but Randy IMO is the longest deserving.
He ranks up there with the other line backers who are already in the Hall.
by bfree2bronc on Aug 8, 2009 1:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Shannon Sharpe will be the biggest snub
but since it is only his first year of eligibility am going to cut the HOF some slack and choose Floyd Little.
Sharpe is my favorite of all time and I think next year he will be a sure fire hall of famer.
"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith
by GarretBarnes on Aug 8, 2009 2:06 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
as for my 3 sets of 3:
Insults:
Shannon Sharpe
Floyd Little
Terrell Davis
Deserving:
Randy Gradishar
Lionel Taylor
Steve Atwater
"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith
by GarretBarnes on Aug 8, 2009 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i love your sig man
good sets of three
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gradishar
I voted for him because there is no way Shannon Sharpe doesnt get in. He hasnt waited nearly as long as Gradishar and the people voting for the HOF clearly dont look at Bronco players in the right way.
Go Broncos!
by dbroncos78087 on Aug 8, 2009 2:29 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
luckily for Sharpe...
he played in Baltimore, so the east coast bias is working in his favor on that one…
He’ll probably go in and be recognized by the MSM as the former Ravens tight end. Nevermind what he did in Denver.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 8, 2009 9:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Floyd Little
I voted for Floyd Little because he impacted the game of football more than any of the other candidates.
by Endzone on Aug 8, 2009 2:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
H.o.F - The Neglected Ones...
Wow, what a great article – and boy do you get the plaudits for the work that went into this little gem of an article. Can’t praise you enough for this – loved reading every summary of all the worthy players. Excellent.
Anyway, before others start thinking I’m your wife or something, I just wanted to say that having been a Bronco fan here in the UK (or to be more specific, Northern Ireland!), I haven’t had much of a chance to see the NFL pre-1983, and MHR and articles like these are wonderful to watch and read.
That said, and I’m sure I’ll not be alone in saying this, but all of the players you have named are worthy in my opinion. I never saw Gradishar play, but from what I hear, it seems like if this guy had played for a big media town like NY, he’d have waltzed into the Hall on a first ballot. I mean, Harry Martin? C’mon, give me a break.
Never saw Floyd, but from my reading, I recognise that he carried the team (literally and metaphorically) in the early days, and has the stats to compare favourably with any back of his time. But you’d have to say that if he isn’t in now, his time has gone. Unfortunately.
I have no doubt that Sharpie will get in soon enough given his credentials, but my personal favourite was always the Assassin, Steve Atwater, though I think he may struggle to get support outside the Rocky Mountain states – hey maybe his sojourn to the Jets was a strategy to garner some votes – who knows? Loved Steve, and boy could we do with him now. Dan the Man will get into the Hall too – and maybe he’ll have Elway and Shanahan there to help enshrine him…? Not bloody likely!! But given his impact on teams beyond Denver, and as a player and a coach, he must stand a damned good chance. TD has always spawned debate about his credentials – yeah sure a Superbowl MVP and a 2000yd season will do that, but then the critics drag up the longevity thing. I don’t buy it. He was part of a Superbowl-winning dynasty who won back-to-back, was the premier back in the NFL for a 3 year period, and without him, we’d probably be longing for a first title.
Not sure if I’ve managed to give a reply there – there all great, great players (and coach!) in my book – but there’s no doubt that as one of the winningest franchises in NFL history, we should have more than 2 players in.
And in case I didn’t mention it earlier – great post!!! Go Broncs!
by MileHighMan on Aug 8, 2009 2:34 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks man
Remembering out past helps us appreciate the present. it’s true for nations and cultures as much as its true for sports fanatics like us. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall of Greatness
As is mentioned in the post it is not the Hall of Very Good, but the Hall of Fame – and therein lies our problem. Because it isn’t the Hall of Greatness either; The hall of Fame is a tribute to the people who has made the game famous. Denver simply is not in the national spotlight enough for most Bronco players to become truly famous.
For the same reason linemen are also underrepresented in the Hall, when taking into consideration that they make up almost half the offense.
Some body (why not SB Nation) should institute the Pro Football Hall of Greatness.
by Jeeeeens on Aug 8, 2009 2:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Atwater is God
The dude only changed game plans. He went to eleventy-billion Pro Bowls. He caused aligator arm epidemics on Sundays. On many occassions I was lucky enough to see him play in person, and more often or not teams abandon the middle field in the passing game by half time. But because he was an elite pass defender in a UNIQUE sort of way, he shall ever be dished as deficient against the pass.
Not even Mike Shannahan respected him…until he was gone.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 8, 2009 3:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
My favorite defensive player of all time.
I hate to say this, but when Darrent Williams died and people were calling for #27 to be retired, I felt offended. If #27 isn’t retired for Steve Atwater then it shouldn’t be retired for DWill. I love DWill, what happened to him was tragic, but a team should only retire numbers for players who were All-Time Bronco Greats…Atwater is still the All-Time greatest Bronco to wear the #27 in my opinion.
Though I still wish DWill was here on our team. We may not have needed to use so many draft picks on the secondary this year if he were……..the kid had the markings of something special. He was something special.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bit of a tangent
Death certainly alters perspective. Did Carson get in because Mara Wellington recently passed? I’ll bet he got a bump. What about Derrick Thomas? It’s a bit taboo to raise the idea, I suppose, because it smacks of disrespect to the deceased. I certainly mean none, it just emphasizes the point that we live with the results of emotionally charged decisions made by imperfect people. Eh, sorry, I guess SSMT’s earlier fanpost (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/8/8/982060/the-real-reason-orton-got-booed ) put me in a rather philosophical mood today….
by MakeCents on Aug 8, 2009 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nigerian Nightmare...
The best hit of ALL TIME! Atwater nearly knocked out Okoye. And he might have been a strong challenger for MVP of SB 32, had he held on to that INT…he was absolutely destroying the Packers…
by Merlin Scott on Aug 8, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
SB 32
…I can come up with a handful of plays I’ve seen when the hitter was clearly unconscious before he hit the ground. I can come up with only 1 where three players were lights out before they found the turf…and it happened at the most important moment of a franchises’ history…erhaps to most important moment in Steve Atwater’s storied career. And he made the sacrifice. He said later that the his only disappointment is that the celebration remains fuzzy and elusive. He wasn’t together enough to appreciate it as it played out.
Atwater is God.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 9, 2009 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It still gives me goose bumps...
…to see the footage of Elway finding a smiling but still dazed and confused Atwater to give him a bear hug. I put it equal to Sakic handing Borque the Cup.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer
by PredominantlyOrange on Aug 9, 2009 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its obvious that Steve is my favorite Bronco of all time.
Dennis Smith was a great pro also and it was incredible when they were back there together. It seems that Steve & Dennis defined the art of safety play, IMO. Ronnie Lott got more press because he had more interceptions, but outside of the ball handling skills, I just dont see how he was better. Steve & Dennis were ALLWAYS in great position. They played the game smart. I love John Lynch, but the reason he has been fined so many times is that he was trying to bring the wood when he didnt yet have his feet. Not having your feet is a symptom of not being in the right place. When Steve brought the wood, he had great position, squared shoulders and great leg & hip power. That is how he brought down Okoye. The hit was what we saw, but the smart play made it possible. In SB 32, he was a game changer. He was smart enough to change his play against Favre. Instead of trying to hit him and have him escape, he consistently went for the ball, causing a critical fumble. Steve NEVER dogged a play and I saw every game he played until that jets season that I choose to forget. He may have lost a step but it wasnt from lack of will. AttwaterForHOF baby! I would move him into the snub category for sure. His stats are similar to Lott’s with the exception of interceptions, but in all other areas I think Attwater was better.
by AttwaterForHOF on Aug 9, 2009 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Post, Zappa
I agree with pretty much the whole thing, except personally, I’d rather see Louis Wright over Atwater. I think Atwater was a “good but not great” and doesn’t quite make HOF material, while Louis was really special.
BUT you do make good points in Atwater’s favor… so okay, let’s put him in, too. :-)
That’s the thing about being snubbed for 40 years or so; with every year that goes by, you have to drop some more of the deservings off the list entirely, in order to make room for more guys that probably won’t make it. Barf.
by oxmouth on Aug 8, 2009 3:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You got me there...
Lionel Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame, but i just don’t see how he will ever get nominated….Louis Wright didn’t play for the Steelers, Raiders, or Dolphins so i choose only Randy Gradishar from that Orange Crush defense. I can’t say it makes any sense, but it is what it is.
Billy Thompson was also a stud….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
absolutely.
Billy, in my little world, belongs there too. It was a great defense. One thing I’ve noticed about most of these guys (Gradishar, Little, Wright, Thompson) is that they weren’t self-promoting jabberjaws who made big scenes on and off the field. They were actually all quiet and mild-mannered types off the field—except of course for Sharpe, who happens to be the one guy I think definitely gets in. I just wonder if the lack of bombasticity (?) actually hurts those other guys’ chances.
You’re right on Taylor, too. And I think Dennis Smith was right there with his buddy Ronnie Lott… oh for Pete’s sake, it’s ludicrous.
by oxmouth on Aug 8, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Body Remembers Great Players
Zappa, I like your thoughts on the Greats from the Bronco’s past.
These Guys belong in the HOF, but might never be there.
Here are mine:
- #44 Floyd Little. He was the Barry Sanders proto-type in a era when playnig in the AFL was like not even getting on the TV Bus.
- #53 Randy Gradishar. The best LB the Broncos have ever had, including those he played with and to date.
- Boy this is a tough pick. Atwater, Wright or Thompson? They will not make it, but all are Bronco Hall of Fame Players.
Coach, I am Hurt, Not Dead - Remember the Titans
by Halfmile on Aug 8, 2009 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t remember anyone filling the hole on short and goal or first down situations like #53-Gradishar
by bmania on Aug 8, 2009 3:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Focusing on Gradishar's tackling stats is a mistake . . .
because bmania hit it right on the head. The thing that truly set #53 apart was his uncanny ability to stuff short yardage plays anywhere on the field. No one before (with the possible exception of Butkus) or since even comes close.
by db8632 on Aug 8, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good writeup Zappa!
For the poll, I chose Gradishar. I completely agree with your 3 in the “Insults” category, and agree that they are indeed insults. I pushed Randy to the top of the list because he was a force that helped move Denver from perennial loser to legitimate contender. You comparison to Carson was a good one I hadn’t considered, and it’s easy to believe that Carson’s selection was sealed, in effect, by good marketing into what is necessarily a political process.
I’ll cut some slack for Sharpe missing the first ballot, expecting him (perhaps naively) to land in the next few; and the unjust reality is that Little’s era and team context hurt his chances.
While a good case can and should be made for your entire deserving and near-deserving list; the absence of those top three diminishes the Hall’s credibility. Your point about "sell[ing] our own great players short by including very good players in the same breath" is valid. But Little, Gradishar, and Sharpe clearly had Hall-worthy careers, and we should all stand behind them without reservation.
by MakeCents on Aug 8, 2009 3:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
couldnt agree more!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
TD
How many RB’s have gained 2,000 yards in a season? 6 altogether? And, he was a Super Bowl MVP.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
by bradley on Aug 8, 2009 3:34 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
NFL MVP to boot
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the video
It was great.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
by bradley on Aug 8, 2009 5:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
on the video:
1. I guess I’ve never thought about it much before, but Shannon Sharpe mentioned T.D.‘s balance. Nail on the head! Davis was just so hard to knock over strength and moves-wise, but the balance… like a freakin’ top! Sanders probably gets the nod on that (as he does everything else) but not many other RBs were so deft at keeping their feet.
2. All that talk about blocking and how good T.D. could block and how he took more pride in blocking than running and if he missed blocks it was a bad game and … man, he was awesome…
by oxmouth on Aug 8, 2009 7:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I could choose any running back
from all of the NFL, todya or yesterday, it would be Terrell Davis. He was as good as any of them, and was (is) a heck of a nice guy.
He felt like the man who drew the first circle. Perfect, and complete.
by bradley on Aug 9, 2009 6:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even now when he does small things with NFLN...
I haven’t heard of ONE person that honestly can say “I don’t like Terrell Davis.” Not only was he a bang up football player, he was also incredibly humble because he was never hyped up (a la Michael Crabtree), TD will always be one of the finest to ever play the game as far as I’m concerned. He never once put his personal statistics in front of the team. He never put anything in front of the team, his performance in SB32 makes that very evident.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 9, 2009 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
not too mention
his stats are comparable to Gayle Sayers.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Aug 8, 2009 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
They should all be in the hall...I voted other because you left one name out
Austin ‘Goose’ Gonsoulin should have been included.
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
by Mike Clark on Aug 8, 2009 4:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
he was in my "almost" list...
he and Lionel Taylor are in the AFL Hall of Fame though….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and by the way
Welcome back Zappa!!
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
by Mike Clark on Aug 8, 2009 4:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks buddy!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the write up.
It’s great to hear about past players, as I have not done the best job of reading the history posts. My vote would be for Sharpe, but just cause I’m more familiar with him. Why is the TE vs. WR a big deal? Aren’t his stats impressive for a WR too? Besides, in my book, the ‘tweener’ thing only means he should be in the hall twice! ; )
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Aug 8, 2009 4:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Post Zappa!
I like how you laid out the 3 categories, and I think it’s important to know which Broncos are more deserving than others. While Mecklenberg is great, it probably hurts Gradishar’s case when we toss guys like Meck in with him.
by studbucket on Aug 8, 2009 4:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I love Meck, but I don't even think he surpasses Tom Jackson or even Al Wilson in talent.
Mecklenburg was like a blue collar worker who didn’t have the talent but never gave less than 110% on every play. Which is why he is such a fan favorite.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 7:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely masterful post Zappa
I must say, the more I think about it, the more I think there’s no other list I can come up with that beats out your 3 “insults.” I will say, though, that I’m a HUGE TD fan and I enjoyed your write up on him in the “deserving” section as well.
With that said though, as much as I want to, I still can’t put him in one of the three insults slots. I agree with you that If he doesn’t get in the Hall for some time, he gets bumped up to that list (or if one of those three get selected he vaults up there). I mean, Sharpe’s definitely going to get in, so I wasn’t too fumed about him not making it in first ballot. Some of the other guys, though, I feel extremely bad for (take Floyd Little for example…I very much enjoyed learning about him).
I might think about taking Tombstone/Taylor and putting them in with Reeves or even Atwater (if, as you said, there really IS a stigma with taking safeties). Again, great to see your post here and a good one at that. Hope all is well…too bad I couldn’t get in on the fantasy action with all you guys. Just my luck that the two days I’m without internet this summer the fantasy sign-ups get posted. Go Broncos!
by phantom818 on Aug 8, 2009 5:06 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks man.
RE: Safeties…I believe the only first ballot HOF was Ronnie Lott. Think of all the great players at that position that are currently in the Hall and only one was a first ballot?
TD is certainly one of my most favorite players of all-time, but I had to lock my own bias away as much as humanly possible to write this one. I probably just barely contained it…if at all. lmao
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 7:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for helping folks remember, Zap
Rec’d, of course!
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Aug 8, 2009 5:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Gradishar
and Floyd are the biggest insults. Sharpe is until he gets in, which should be next year. Atwater could be a 10-15 year wait, especially at Safety. If they ever start putting kickers in Elam deserves to be as well.
TD should get in just for his post season work alone.
Dan will get in.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
by Darin H on Aug 8, 2009 5:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Floyd Little FTW
My vote for most deserving is Floyd Little (followed closely by Gradishar). As was stated, he was the Broncos’ sole offensive weapon. Teams only had to stop Little to beat us. Yet he was the leading rusher in the NFL for multiple seasons.
by GaryP on Aug 8, 2009 5:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, Zappa, for the wonderful writeup
I wasn’t fortunate enough to witness any of the (O.G.) Orange Crush, so I can’t make my case for Gradishar, Little, Wright, etc. But I did watch all of the 80’s Super Bowl teams, marking the beginning of my Orange & Blue blood transfusion. My vote is for Steve Atwater. From the humiliation of Okoye, to his devastation of himself and 2 others in SB XXXII, this guy made you fear catching the ball over the middle. If John Lynch gets in before Atwater, I’ll boycott the HOF forever.
No inspirational quote here, just this...GO BRONCOS!!!
by Zogernaut on Aug 8, 2009 6:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Be prepared to boycot forever.
John Lynch, for whatever reason, is a media darling. He will get in long before Atwater even makes the final cut. :( Even so, I like John Lynch and I’ve liked him throughout his entire career. I was glad he finished his career in Denver.
You know, my last name is Lynch also. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 8:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I know that “Everybody Loves Lynch”, and he will probably make the Hall before 27. It makes me sick.
I got my bomb shelter stuffed with essentials for the boycott.
Steve Atwater is always going to be a Hall of Famer in my heart.
No inspirational quote here, just this...GO BRONCOS!!!
by Zogernaut on Aug 8, 2009 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lmao
I got my bomb shelter stuffed with essentials for the boycott.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 11:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Sure hope that comes with TV and internet access. ; ) Then it’s essentially a glorified man cave! Make that a DREAM man cave. “Honey, you coming up for dinner?” “NO! I’m eating CHEETOS and watching the damned GAME!”
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
She doesn't even get the code to the lock, bro.
LOL!
No inspirational quote here, just this...GO BRONCOS!!!
by Zogernaut on Aug 9, 2009 11:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fingerprint security is always a good decision.
Just to insure that your cave will never be messed with hahahaha.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 10, 2009 12:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gradishar
I agree completely. If Gradishar had played in Baltimore, New York, Philadelphia, Washington or Pittsburgh, he would be in.
Let’s hope the Veterans come to their senses.
by Baltimore Bronco on Aug 8, 2009 6:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
My two cents
I picked Little, but Gradishar is close. Both deserve the HOF more than anyone else on the list.
Sharpe isn’t an insult by being left out… yet. He deserves to get in on the first ballot, but Little and Gradishar have been snubbed for decades, and both clearly, CLEARLY have waited too long. Until Little gets in, I won’t take the HOF seriously. There’s no feasable excuse for Little’s omission. But Sharpe is a clear candidate to get in early. If he doesn’t get in over the next few years, there will be just one more reason to laugh at the HOF.
I love Atwater as a Denver fan, and (of course) he plays my favorite position on the field. But there are so many deserving players that I’d have to put in front of him right now (including Little and Gradishar). Does he deserve to get in? Yes (and Zap does a good job comparing Atwater with Lynch). But he hasn’t been cheated as long as Gradishar and Little.
Davis should get in (in MY opinion), but I respect the argument that he didn’t perform over a long enough period of time. Listen closely – I don’t agree with those arguments, I’m just saying they have enough merit to be argued. I imagine there are enough HOF voters with strong opinons both ways, and that isn’t a good sign for his chances. It may take a back room deal to get him in, and I think that’s a tough path.
I have met Dan Reeves a few times and been able to talk shop with him. I respect his record, and the job he’s done with more than one team. Frankly, I respect the idea of him getting a shot at the HOF, but I think his chances are tough.
If we as fans put our efforts into really achieving something, we need to get behind one or two players. Little and Gradishar are clear snubs, and (in my own opinion) are the two who have been cheated for far too long.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 8, 2009 7:29 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Dan Reeves
I would like to see Pat Bowlen, now that Shanny is gone, honor Dan Reeves in the Ring of Fame. He deserves it as much as any former player not on that Ring right now…
In my opinion of course. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 8:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Reeves deserve the Ring of Fame nod. Hands down.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 8, 2009 8:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's very true.
agreed with both of you. I know Reeves vs Elway brewed for quite some time, even after Elway’s retirement, but the fact is Dan Reeves made this team competitive constantly, to say the least.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 8, 2009 9:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No question
That would be very appropriate.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a travisty that the HOF voters are that stupid
I was watching on the NFLN last night the top 10 players that should be in the HOF and Shannon Sharpe was #3 and Chris Carter was #2. I was surprised yet at the same time I wasn’t that Sharpe was the only Bronco on the list. During the show Rod Woodson stated that 44 writers who have votes have never played football. Personally, if you have never played in the NFL then you have no right to vote who gets in……PERIOD!
Every guy above in the post should be in and hopefully in due time they will. I mean what make a player more HOF worthy his second or 10th time on the ballot that wasn’t there his first year.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Aug 8, 2009 8:00 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
If writers get to decide an award, it should be limited to a Peabody or Nobel or something. Isn’t it enough that they have a disproportionate share of the Pro Bowl vote?
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Topic
I must commend the thread starter for the point he makes about not lumping everyone together when lobbying for more Broncos. This is totally true. Recently, I sent an email to Dan Pompei, encouraging him to vote for Gradishar. As tempting as it was to lump in Louis Wright, Floyd Little, etc., including them takes muddies the water for Gradishar.
The best thing to do is argue for one guy at a time. If/when more Broncos make it in, it will become easier to see more in.
However, I really think Terrell Davis is the most deserving. One day Curtis Martin will make it in and he was never as great as Terrell was. When you think about it, the only thing that Terrell is missing for him to be a lead pipe lock is a couple of 1200 yard seasons. Had he not been hurt he could have yawned his way to that. Two 1200 yard seasons should hardly keep someone out of the HOF. We all know his accolades. To keep him out because he was missing a couple of ok seasons is silly, especially when he is missing that because of tragic misfortune.
I think he will get in eventually and here is why: I think a couple more players from those SB teams will make it in and when that happens, I think people will look around and see that the player most responsible for their SB rings (ie Terrell Davis) is not there…and then it will occur to them how silly it is that he’s not there. Sharpe is a lock and I also think Nalen has a good chance, especially since he was a key figure on the revolutionary ZBS.
And so, whenever I lobby for someone, its usually for Gradishar since there is more urgency with him.
by Alex L. on Aug 8, 2009 8:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: TD
I agree with you there. All TD needed was a couple of 1000 yard seasons and he would be in the Hall by now. It is unfortunate.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if a guy had only rushed for two 1200 yard seasons and none of the stuff Terrell had done, someone would say, thats not enough…he needs to be great like Terrell Davis. So, if two 1200 yard seasons isnt that impressive, how can it be so significant in keeping him out? Its silly. He was great—a warrior. Its just sad that Curtis Martin will get in for being very good for a long time, while Davis was beyond great and he’s not in. Dumb.
by Alex L. on Aug 9, 2009 1:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even worse...
Gale Sayers was voted in with no question and his career wasn’t much better than Davis’ if at all.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 9, 2009 2:07 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you have to realize that the people who vote on this stuff are crusty old timers and the very notion that Davis can be compared to Sayers is sacrilege.
In a weird way, the fact that those were Elway’s last two years kind of hurt how that team is perceived. Those were great teams, more specifically the 98 team. The 98 team was an all time great team. But it doesnt really seem to get the traction it deserves and I think a big reason why is that its remembered more as “Elway’s last season” and not as “one of the best teams in history’”, which it was. And along those same lines, a lot of Davis’ accomplishment may is underappreciated because when people were watching our team during those years, they were processing the Elway angle more than how great the team was and, specifically someone like TD.
by Alex L. on Aug 9, 2009 2:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I love TD and believe he should be in the Hall . . .
I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Sayers was the most dominant kick returner of his day, a dimension that TD doesn’t have. This shouldn’t keep TD out of the Hall, because TD was by far the most dominant RB of his era, but to ignore this aspect of Sayers’ career only plays into the hands of the haters.
by db8632 on Aug 9, 2009 8:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sayers=The Hester of his time?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 9, 2009 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
30.56 yards per kickoff average...
can you imagine? rick upchurch averaged 24.8, which is great, too. (upchurch was more of a punt returner, though).
other notes from 3 minutes of research: upchurch— 4 pro bowls, 3 all pro, all-decade team for the 80s. also, upchurch briefly dated condoleezza rice. um… but i digress… sorry.
wikipedia: the lazy man’s intelligence.
by oxmouth on Aug 9, 2009 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+100
on the Wiki comment. I look there at least 10 times a day, mostly for random crap like world records for the biggest fruit and stuff. not kidding either.
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 9, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I loves me some random wikicrap! : D
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting thought on TD induction
I could see that happening that way, especially if you factor in a few of his crusty old detractors passing away in the meantime. ; )
Interesting thought. As for now, though, that will be one of the lingering tragedies of TD’s career. He was HOF bound for sure until cut short by that gnarly injury. Breaks your heart.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just glad my boy got on the Insult list
Shannon Sharpe for the Hall!
"3rd and 6, Elway shotgun... Elway, scrambling, looking, running-- DIVING!!!-- inside the 5 yard line for a first down! Is he only 37?! How important is this football game? How bad does John Elway want to win this football game? Where you see the quarterbacks go down: Not Elway!"
by Sharpe as a Tack on Aug 8, 2009 9:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
If Sharpe isn't admitted next year, it won't be an insult.
It would be an outrage.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 6:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is my experience the contemporary players are generally more popular . . .
That is because many did not get to see the likes of Gradishar and Little actually play. This is also a reason Lionel Taylor is an afterthought, if a thought at all.
I saw them all, beginning on 9 September 1960 in the first AFL game ever played . . . between the Denver Broncos and Boston Patriots. The greatest Bronco ever to play the game, IMO, second to John Elway, is Randy Gradishar. He was the best linebacker of his era, yet some of his contemporaries are in the HOF, and he is not.
It is also the greatest insult and snub that he is not in. Second is Floyd Little, to whom we owe the fact that there is a Denver Broncos to root for. Third is Lionel Taylor, who recorded the first 100-catch season in all of football, and he did it in a 14-game season.
I love your article (as usual), Zappa, and Taylor is my only departure from your list.
Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy
by AZDynamics on Aug 8, 2009 10:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
If only you knew how much I wanted Taylor on the list....
but I had to give myself a reality check. He is in the AFL Hall of Fame, like Goose Gonsoulin, and unfortunately for the game…that is as far as he will get. :(
There is a huge bias of the NFL towards the former AFL…it exists to this day…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 8, 2009 11:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't go back quite that far . . .
but the Bronco defender who was easily the most feared and respected player on those terrible teams of the late ’60s (with due respect to Billy Thompson) was Rich Jackson. He always had a big supporter in Paul Zimmerman, and I concur with Dr. Z. “Tombstone” should be in this discussion.
by db8632 on Aug 9, 2009 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tombstone
I did a bio on him a year or two ago here. If his knees had held up there is no question Tombstone would have been a first ballot HOF. It’s too bad his career was so short.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 9, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you Zappa
Atwater is my favorite Defensive player ever as well – it was hard not to vote for him up there, but knowing the history and from film I’ve seen – Had to put one in for Randy….. He definitely had more of a ‘historical’ affect (effect?) on football altogether.
Great write-up! Appreciated and rec’d – And definitely appreciate you and the rest of the MHR team for representing Our players so thoroughly! Sign that petition!
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Aug 8, 2009 11:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Taylor and Tombstone!!!
Lionel Taylor and Rich ‘Tombstone’ Jackson deserve entry, as does Gradishar, but probably before him given they played before he did. You cannot forget them just because they spent so much time in the AFL.
by robibc on Aug 9, 2009 2:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
No to TD
Call me what you will, but as much as I love TD(and I AM a big fan of his), I don’t believe he is HOF worthy. I know the argument that other dominate players with short careers on more high profile teams are already in, but most aren’t deserving either. 2-3 more years with numbers similar to the first 4 and I am proudly screaming for his induction. I know a lot of people won’t like this, but the more we try to push for Davis, the less legitimacy we as Broncos fans will get when we lobby for Randy, Shannon (will be in next year or I burn Canton to the ground), Floyd, and Mr. Atwater. Thank you and please don’t ban me, I love this site.
by SoCalBroncsFan on Aug 9, 2009 5:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We might disagree, but...
…like I commented earlier, there are valid reasons for and against TD. I lean “for”, but there are fair arguments both ways.
Not so with Little and Gradishar. There is simply no valid argument for them not being in. Sharpe deserves to be in, but he hasn’t been wronged on the scale of Gradishar or Little because those guys have gone without the recognition for decades. Sharpe deserves to get in, but AFTER our old timers get the due they deserve.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 9, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really. The only argument against TD is that he didnt play long enough. But then you look at the fact that Sayers made it in. When a precedent exists for looking past an injury, its hard to reconcile why TD isnt in. He is one of the most accomplished RBs in the history of the league.
by Alex L. on Aug 9, 2009 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The true sad thing about the situation....
TD would NEVER make a public situation out of it. He’s just not THAT guy….
Peyton Hillis is also referred to in early Greek mythology by his other names such as Zeus or Poseidon.
by Joe Medina on Aug 10, 2009 12:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not really going to argue against TD,
since I (like you) favor his induction. But the counter argument about Sayers is double edged as well. It is the argument I would use (like you did), but sharp folks point out the politics that went into his selection. He was a solid player in a short time, but the tragedy that was a part of his legacy weighed in too.
Of course, you and I would agree that TD wasn’t a one year fluke. Any player might have an amazing year. But TD had more than one, and had those years against the best in the NFL in postseason play. If the only argument against TD is longevity, the best counter might be that he proved he wasn’t a one year wonder.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 10, 2009 6:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great job, Zappa (and other HOF Committee members!)
I sure appreciate how you have put the conversation about HOF worthiness in sharpe focus (no pun intended, but I’ll roll with it anyway). We won’t be able to get them all in in one ceremony, but they all sure belong there. And I could not agree more about Gradishar leading the way. Ask NFL historians to name the two most significant eras in Broncos history and you’d have to pick the Elway era and the Orange Crush era. We MUST have at least a representative from the Crush, for starters.
Also, as much as I believe it would be spectacularly insane for them not to select Sharpe next year (this year was merely categorically insane — c’mon people, he only redefined the position), I’m afraid that if it came down to it they would put Chris Carter into the HOF ahead of Shannon and explain it with some lame excuse like “We couldn’t inducts two receivers in the same year.” The hell you can’t. And as much as I love Chris Carter and consider him worthy, did the man really change the position? Would he have gotten the love if he hadn’t been sharing a camera with Randy Moss?
Oh look at me. Hasn’t happened yet and I’m already grousing. I’m gonna switch gears and cheer up. Because I think you guys are gonna help get them in!!
Oh, and was it you Z that one pointed out that without The Franchise Little, we wouldn’t have had a franchise in Denver? Sounds like a man who impacted the game to me.
Let’s rally everyone! Gradishar is an insult on par with cracks about mammas and sisters! Go Gradishar!
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:06 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, as much as I'd love TD in the hall
I’d take that one as icing on the cake. I think the sentiment against him, while it can be honestly debated, is just too strong to overcome right now.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 7:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Cris Carter
Cris Carter will get in much sooner than he should simply because he is “one of them” as far as the journalists are concerned. The reason he has the stats is because he played for 18 years…. but whatever, it is what it is.
I believe it was firstfan that educated me about Floyd Little’s true contribution to the Broncos…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 9, 2009 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah yes
Firstfan is such an apt name sometimes!
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One point Montana...
It isn’t about the Elway era or the Orange Crush era. The HOF could give a rat’s butt about our eras, or the eras of other teams. It is about the player, not the team he’s from or the era.
That said, we should look at the best players of all time. In that light, looking purely at the numbers, It shouldn’t matter if Little helped the broncos franchise, or if Gradishar WAS the orange crush, or if TD helped Elway get over the hump, or if Atwater had a great hit that Broncos fans remember. The key is, are any of these players (Broncos or not) the best of the best? On those grounds (best of all time), I think Gradishar and Little should be locks and are past due, and Sharpe is deserving (but hasn’t been cheated as long as Little or Gradishar).
Just my thinking.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 9, 2009 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point, HT
I’d love to operate on the assumption that the legacy of a player and their impact on the game means much more than their conventionally accepted “fame” quotient. But I have to wonder when I hear some of the voting pundits explain their rationale for their votes, and some of the arguments that come up in the room, that there sure seems to be, if not outright bias, then at least a little arbitrariness introduced to the process. I heard one guy on the Top 10 HOF Snubs say something like, “I don’t want to even have to think about whether a guy is worthy. If I have to think about whether he’s worthy, he’s not worthy.” (Sorry, can’t remember the specific words, but those were close.)
In all fairness, I suppose it would be tricky for any committee to oversee such a meaningful process for such a popular game defined by such astonishingly hard-nosed, strong willed players. The key is probably to take solace in the fact that they get it right most of the time. I can’t really look at anyone who has merited induction and say they weren’t worthy, or even as worthy as Gradishar and Little. But when players are definitive to their positions, or at very least the best of the best of their time, and they’re not in, my confidence wanes.
"Talk about the Broncos and I'm gonna 'put my dukes up'. I'm gonna hit you with these rings." -- Rod Smith giving the Kennison rebuttal to Jamie Dukes
by broncosmontana on Aug 9, 2009 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
While we can all appreciate what Little did with regard to keeping the team in Denver, one thing to consider, in case you havent realized this yet, is that a lot of people who vote, probably do not care if there is a team in Denver. Thats fairly self evident with the snubs we are discussing. So with that in mind, you have to look at it sort of by established criteria, whatever it happens to be, that typically gets guys in.
by Alex L. on Aug 10, 2009 1:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right.
The criteria of “best of all time” doesn’t apply when the the HOF is snubbing Little. “Helped to advance the NFL or a team” doesn’t help (apparently) because again, Little doesn’t make it.
That’s the frustration. No matter how you slice it, Little should be in by any criteria. That the HOF ignores him demonstrates that the product is broken. That’s why the HOF is a waste of my time, and should be to others as well.
It’s nice to agree, even if rarely.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Aug 10, 2009 6:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clear bias
I made this argument with a co-worker a when Sharpe got snubbed. There is a clear bias, but I think it is greater than ‘East Coast’. It is simply anti Broncos.
I use the AFC West as my argument
The only other team of the original AFL teams that have fewer HOF players is the Bengals.
The chargers, who have never one a championship have seven.
The chiefs, who have one SB apperance and one AFL title, have something like 12
And the raiders, who had great teams in the 70’s have 18………. 18! WTF ?!?!
The Broncos have as many SB appearances and only one less Championship than the raiders, and the HOF difference is 16?!?. And there is simply no way that the chargers deserve more HOF inductees. It is outrageous that there is such an obvious exclusion of MANY great players. You could extrapolate this to the entire AFL history or even count the entire NFL for the same time period and you would see the same things. It points to the fact that REPORTERS should not be the people making these decisions. The national media just realized Denver exists, they should not be making any decisions of import. It should be ex players and coaches primarily with reporters and fans as tie breakers.
The main problem with this post, and I know that you are trying to be realistic in concerting our efforts on one player at a time, is that ALL of these players should be in. It is so sad that we are trying to decide who should be the third when we should be deciding who should be the thirteenth.
by AttwaterForHOF on Aug 9, 2009 7:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Chiefs fan
and I agree with most of this list, except for maybe TD. Don’t get me wrong, Terrell Davis was an incredible RB, but I would induct people like Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, Emmitt Smith, and Thurman Thomas before I even considered Terrell Davis. Personally, I put TD in the same category as Priest Holmes, the Chiefs all time leading rusher. Excellent player, but I don’t think he’s ever going to be in the Hall of Fame.
by Vince D on Aug 9, 2009 8:34 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
At no point in Curtis Martins career was he ever as great as Terrell Davis. Terrell Davis has accomplished far more than anyone on that list except Emmitt Smith.
How many SBs were Priest Holmes instrumental in winning? How many times did he run for over 2000 yards? How many league MVPs? How many SB MVPs? The record for most consecutive playoff games with 100 yards? And that goes for any of those guys. Emmitt Smith is really the only one who stacks up along those lines. Maybe Marshall Faulk.
The only thing Terrell Davis is missing is two 1200 yard seasons and its silly to keep a guy out because of that.
Priest Holmes = Terrell Davis…you make me laugh.
Actually, Terrell is probably the most deserving.
by Alex L. on Aug 10, 2009 1:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Curtis Martin was just a name I threw in there cuz I ran out of RBs
My point was just that TD isn’t the first person that comes to mind when I think of HOF RBs. Don’t get me wrong, he was a nightmare when he played.
Priest Holmes was nowhere near as dominant as TD, but I put them in the same category of great running backs that will probably never make the HOF.
I really think TD was an excellent RB. I was just giving an outsider opinion.
by Vince D on Aug 10, 2009 9:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, 15 years of above average play is greater than 4 years of undeniable greatness?
So the Hall of Fame is actually the Hall of Above Average for 15 years…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 10, 2009 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. That was the argument against Art Monk. Well in TD you have undeniable greatness and theyre shuffling their feet because he is missing two 1200 yard seasons. Dumb. The hall voters are all over the place. Basically what it amounts to is that they like who they like. There is no reasoning beyond that.
by Alex L. on Aug 10, 2009 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
Why would someone be denied the HOF for giving his heart and soul to the NFL for 15 great years in favor of someone who couldn’t make it past 4 productive years? Not to take away from how dominant those 4 years were, but I think someone who can stay productive that long should get the HOF nod.
by Vince D on Aug 10, 2009 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point was that both deserve to be looked at, but one shouldn't vastly outweight the other.
A guy who plays 15 years and has solid season after solid season IS A HALL OF FAME PLAYER…
BUT a guy who plays 4 years, two of which were two of the most dominate in NFL history, who then has a freak injury that ends his career shouldn’t be looked at any less than the player he was just because he didn’t tack on a couple of extra 1000 yards seasons.
That was really my point.
I believe both TD and Curtis Martin are HOF players…just for different reasons.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 11, 2009 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Floyd Little IS the mam
After growing with the Broncos and having season tickets from 1972 – 1997 ( than only giving them up because I was transferred to Boston) I feel that Floyd Little was the finest all-around running back Denver has ever had. He was almost all we had for many years.Sad that he didn’t get the national air time exposure for inclusion in Hall Of Fame voting. HE SHOULD HAVE
by colofans on Aug 10, 2009 3:14 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Terrell Davis, even though his career was cut short by recurring knee problems, caused by that knee injury that he suffered in 1999, definitely belongs in the Hall, not just because of what he accomplished in the regular season, but also because of the fact that as short as his career was, has one of the best post-season players ever! He had 7 straight games of 100 or more yards in the post-season, and it would have been 8(he had 91 yards rushing on only 14 carries in that playoff loss to Jacksonville in the ‘96 season), if the Broncos didn’t fall behind Jacksonville in the 2nd quarter of that playoff loss, where they had to start passing a lot. What he accomplished in the post-season alone in our Super Bowls, is almost reason enough for Terrell Davis to be in the Hall of fame.
by Broncomike07 on Aug 10, 2009 9:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's also not forget about Karl Mecklenburg
It’s funny, but a lot of people forget about Karl Mecklenburg. I’m not saying that he should definitely be in the Hall of Fame, but when you look at what he accomplished in his career, especially after being drafted in the 12th round(yes, they used to have more rounds in the NFL draft), with the 310th pick overall, the fact that he never even got hardly any Hall of Fame votes, or consideration, is pretty amazing. He was a 6-time Pro Bowler, with 79 1/2 career sacks. There’re probably defensive players in the Hall of Fame with stats that aren’t even that good.
by Broncomike07 on Aug 10, 2009 9:58 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Karl Mecklenburg
I love Meck, he was one of my favorite players in the 80’s and early 90’s, but I don’t think he is quite great enough to be in the Hall. To me, he is about at the level of a Tom Jackson. Nearly there, but not quite. Meck was no Gradishar that’s for sure.
So don’t get me wrong, Meck was a GREAT BRONCO, but not quite great enough to make the HOF cut in my humble opinion.
RE: TD
TD must get into the HOF eventually. No way a 2000 yard season and NFL MVP not make it into HOF….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 11, 2009 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for the typo
I meant to say what Terrell Davis accomplished in our Super Bowl years alone, not Super Bowls, should be enough for him to get into the Hall.
by Broncomike07 on Aug 10, 2009 10:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Louis Wright
I’d put him in the deserving category. Best cover corner of his time. Just didn’t have the flash of some of the other greats, but hardly anyone completed a pass on the guy. Gradishar is the worst snub in the HoF, period. Absolute joke that he isn’t in.
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Aug 10, 2009 11:27 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you.
Louis Wright and Lionel Taylor are probably two of the guys that should be on my list….
Maybe after we get some of these other dudes in. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Aug 11, 2009 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs






























