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Getting Over the 2008 Broncos: The Numbers are So Much Worse Than You Think

As we approach game one of the Josh McDaniels era, one thing is clear: The new coach will be judged against our wildest dreams – and not the cold truths – about the 2008 team. It’s grossly unfair, but I understand the impulse. The 2008 Broncos left a greater impact on me than any Broncos team in memory, including all of the Superbowl teams and the 2005 team that came oh-so close. The roller-coaster nature of the season and, above all, the wild, reckless hope produced by the team’s new-found love of the passing game were riveting. Win or lose, I was hooked. Who could possibly stop thinking about a team that beat the Falcons on the road one week, got blown out by the Raiders at home the next, then thumped the Jets on the road the week after?

Like a flight that nearly ends in disaster, the turbulence of the Broncos’ season produced unusually strong memories. Not good memories, but strong ones. And when I have to reach for a memory of 2008, I come up with the wide-open passing game of the first three weeks. We all know the 2008 Broncos were the beauty that kills. I’m here to tell you how much. A lot of folks around here have done some legwork on this. We know that the team was outscored, and badly. We know that the players the team cut were bad. But a closer, statistical look adds an extra dimension of pain. For all the hope the passing game inspired, the 2008 Broncos were the worst mediocre team in memory. Mediocre and falling, like an anvil. I’ve crunched the numbers to document the pain.

Star-divide

First, I’m going to show you that the 2008 Broncos were the second-worst 8-8 team of the last 10 years. Second, I’m going to look at the current fortunes of 28 players who are no longer with the team. Here’s what I promise. No matter how bad you expect the results to be, they’re, so, so much worse.

What follows below is so bad, it should be NSFW.

Mediocre? We wish

In the 10 NFL seasons from 1999 to 2008, 38 teams finished with a record of 8-8.

Perceptions matter, and our first-blush perceptions from 2008 were compelling. The opening-night thumping the Broncos gave the Raiders lives in our memories. It should – in none of the following 15 games did the team play anywhere near as well. The 41 points the team scored that night were its highest total of the season. The 17 it allowed were the second-lowest total of the season. After dropping 39 and 34 in the next two weeks, the offense averaged less than 20 points per game the rest of the way.

We all know how bad the defense was. But when you combine a historically bad defense with terrible special teams and an average offense, you get the second-worst 8-8 team since Monica Lewinsky was the talk of the nation.

The 2008 Broncos in Context: Scoring Differentials of 8-8 teams over the past decade

Teams sorted from worst to best

Year

Team

Points For

Points Against

Scoring Margin

Total League Scoring

Average Team Scoring

Adjusted Scoring Differential

2006

Ten

324

400

-76

10577

330.5

-0.23

2008

Den

370

448

-78

11279

352.5

-0.22

2004

STL

319

392

-73

11000

343.8

-0.21

2006

GB

301

366

-65

10577

330.5

-0.20

2004

NOR

348

405

-57

11000

343.8

-0.17

2001

Was

256

303

-47

10024

323.4

-0.15

2006

SDC

269

316

-47

10324

333

-0.14

2006

Car

270

305

-35

10577

330.5

-0.11

2000

Buf

315

350

-35

10254

330.8

-0.11

2002

San

333

367

-34

11097

346.8

-0.10

2008

Was

265

296

-31

11279

352.5

-0.09

2008

Hou

366

394

-28

11279

352.5

-0.08

2003

Cin

366

384

-18

10666

333.3

-0.05

2002

Buf

379

397

-18

11097

346.8

-0.05

2006

NYG

355

372

-17

10577

330.5

-0.05

2006

Stl

367

381

-14

10577

330.5

-0.04

2006

NYJ

308

309

-1

10324

333

0.00

2006

Det

322

323

-1

10324

333

0.00

2001

Den

340

339

1

10024

323.4

0.00

2004

Cin

374

372

2

11000

343.8

0.01

2007

AZ

404

399

5

11104

347

0.01

2004

Min

405

395

10

11000

343.8

0.03

2005

Atl

351

341

10

10556

329.9

0.03

2000

Was

281

269

12

10254

330.8

0.04

2003

NOR

340

326

14

10666

333.3

0.04

2006

NEP

299

284

15

10324

333

0.05

2006

GB

357

341

16

10324

333

0.05

2006

Pit

353

315

38

10577

330.5

0.11

2006

Car

421

381

40

10324

333

0.12

2006

Cin

373

331

42

10577

330.5

0.13

2006

Balt

324

277

47

10324

333

0.14

2007

Min

365

311

54

11104

347

0.16

2006

Oak

390

329

61

10324

333

0.18

2002

Kan

467

399

68

11097

346.8

0.20

2008

NOR

463

393

70

11279

352.5

0.20

2006

Dal

352

276

76

10324

333

0.23

2008

SDG

439

347

92

11279

352.5

0.26

2006

Jax

371

274

97

10577

330.5

0.29

 

Why are the Broncos only the 37th worst 8-8 team in the past decade, and not the absolute worst? Well, I adjusted the numbers to account for total league offense. The more points NFL teams score, the wider the spread we’ll see in scoring differential. If the “average” NFL team scored 3 points per game, the best scoring differential in the league would probably be 1 point. If the “average” team scored 1,000,000 points per game, the best scoring differential would be, I don’t know, several hundred thousand points. When we account for the fact that 2008 was the highest-scoring year in the past decade, the 2008 Broncos come in second to last, just below the 2006 Titans, as the worst 8-8 team in memory.

Some other fun facts: You’ll notice that the 2008 Broncos allowed 448 points, the worst figure on this list. You’ll also find that the second worst team allowed “just” 405 points. I could pull out the heavy-duty stats to explain how big that difference is, but I think you get the point. The 2008 Broncos’ defense wasn’t just bad, it was historically, epically bad.

On the flip side, if you look at the points for column, you’ll find that the high-scoring Cutler & co. bandwagon was outscored by 10 teams on this list, including such awesome juggernauts as the 2006 Jaguars and the 2004 Bengals. You’ll also notice that one of the highest-scoring teams on the list was the 2008 Chargers, who dropped 439 points (nearly 1/8 of them on December 28!) and outscored their opponents by nearly 100 points. In other words, the season-ending meeting between the two teams ended about like it should have: The 2nd-best 8-8 team in memory pounded the 2nd-worst.

Clayton’s Heroes

Oh, but it gets worse. On Sunday, we were treated to a new tongue-lashing by John Clayton, who invented some new metrics to bash away at the current Broncos. Clayton pointed out that only 8 Broncos on the current roster came to the team in 2006 or before, leaving the team with 15 new players per year over the past 3 years. The result he says, is that the Broncos have become a joke, an expansion team.

Cutting your players is only bad, of course, if the players you cut are good players. So, who are Clayton’s heroes? Who are these awesome Broncos, part of the formerly bright future, whom the ignorant new administration has cut loose?

I’m glad you asked. Here are the details. And no, don’t say I didn’t warn you:

McDaniels’ Cuts (Or, Victories Lost!)

 

Starters

Current Team

Status

Jay Cutler

Chicago Bears

Starter

Dre Bly

San Francisco

Back-Up

Marquand Manuel

Detroit

Back-Up

Selvin Young

None

 

Ebenezer Ekuban

None

 

DeWayne Robertson

None

 

Jamie Winborn

None

 

Boss Bailey

None

 

Nate Webster

None

 

Marlon McCree

None

 

 

 

 

Back-ups

Current Team

Status

John Engelberger

None

 

Josh Bell

Denver Broncos

IR

Niko Koutouvides

Tampa

Back-Up

Mike Leach

Arizona

Long-Snapper

Kory Lichtensteiger

Minnesota

Back-Up

Andre Hall

Houston Texans

Back-Up

Tatum Bell

None

 

Cory Boyd

None

 

Nic Clemons

None

 

Keary Colbert

None

 

Tim Crowder

None

 

Vernon Fox

None

 

Louis Green

None

 

Chad Jackson

None

 

Nate Jackson

None

 

Jeb Putzier

None

 

Darrell Jackson

None

 

Herana Daze-Jones

None

 

Calvin Lowry

None

 

 

Does McD-Bag know no mercy? Of 10 – TEN! – 2008 starters no longer on the team, one is a current NFL starter. Three if you count all of his chins. Beyond that, there are two back-ups. Seven – SEVEN! – players who started a lot of games for the Broncos last year are out of football. If we expand the list to the back-ups, you can see just how terrible last year’s team was. Nobody wanted the starters. Nobody wants the back-ups. I guess that’s good news for Coach Clayton. With the exception of one player, the Broncos can easily re-sign all of these fallen heroes.

I like the new Broncos, and I like them a lot. I’m optimistic. But no matter what your take on this year’s team is, it’s time to get over 2008. That team was going nowhere, and the long list of ex-Broncos on the unemployment line is the proof.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 96 comments  |  41 recs  | 

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Apologies, again for the HTML garbage

I couldn’t get around it. Hopefully, everybody can pull something useful from this, anyway.

A note on the content: I forgot Ryan Torain and Carlton Powell, two more unemployed ex Broncos.

by Chibronx on Sep 10, 2009 3:58 PM MDT reply actions  

great post man!

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Sep 10, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Be careful, you koolaid-induced whacko!

Have another drink before you throw even more numbers at me…please!

I was in the stadium for that 41-14 drubbing of the Raiders…loved it.

I was also in SD at a sports bar with my Charger-fan of a family for that 52pt beat down to close out the year.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Sep 10, 2009 4:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hmmmmm Zappa

Seems like every time you are near the Broncos … we get blown out ……………………. ;-)

I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"

by dmitchell624 on Sep 10, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

whoa whoa whoa

I lived in San Diego during Super Bowl XXII. The only two games I’ve been too was a 31-16 beat down of the Chargers and a 41-14 beat down of the Raiders.

I’m golden baby!

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

by Tim Lynch on Sep 11, 2009 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

you know that was a sick attempt at humor ;-)

I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"

by dmitchell624 on Sep 10, 2009 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

so was i

my friends at that bar still give me crap. I need redemtion against the cahrgers in Oct, SO BADLY

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 11, 2009 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice points!

Forward this post on to Woody Paige and ask him if he still blindly thinks we were the second best offense in football last year.

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 10, 2009 4:06 PM MDT reply actions  

Overall...kind of on target...

But…I don’t see how this paints the 2008 Broncos as one of the worst offenses ever for an 8-8 team. It seems to me that their scoring total ranked better than almost 3/4 of the teams listed. Not great, but better than average for an 8-8 team. And…this post lists all of the players that are no longer with the team this year…really only a couple of players that played any significant amount of time…

For me…this just reinforces (like the author said) how historically bad our defense and special teams were. We definitely weren’t the 2nd best offense…more like middle of the pack overall when we got past the first few weeks. If we were such a bad offense…I imagine there would be much more turnover on that side of the ball as well.

by gcman on Sep 10, 2009 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not just role players, starters too

You’re not moved by the part where 7 players who started a lot of games for team, or came into the year listed as starters, are no longer in the NFL?

I hear your point about offenses, but I’m not saying the Broncos had one of the all-time worst offenses for an 8-8 team. They didn’t. Look at it this way: Would anybody say: “How dare they break up the 2006 Jaguars offense”?

by Chibronx on Sep 11, 2009 6:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thing thing that gets lost in the wash...

…when people indict the Broncos defense as the only culprit in the team’s decline is the fact that the Cutler offense so consistently generated 3 and outs at crucial times. Its true that the defense was poor, but the vaunted offense rarely did much to help…especially under adverse conditions. I can think of at least four games last year that the Denver defense was good enough to win, but the offense made it nearly impossible. JC and crew were brilliant when things were going right and less than pedestrian (in most cases, at least) when they needed to step up, hold onto to the ball and control the clock.

There were multilayered problems on offense that were somewhat cloaked by having a talented QB. The offense was whatever Jay Cutler could do, and that rested on whether Jay was going to throw in the towel when they had him game planned well that day. Unfortunately, Jay seemed to throw in the towel a lot….or, more euphamistically…fail to consistently adjust to the opponents adjustments to him.

by PredominantlyOrange on Sep 11, 2009 8:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

agreed PO

the 2008 offense and special teams play turned a horrible defense into an atrocious one.

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Sep 11, 2009 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

interesting perspective (rec'd for that)

It’s interesting to compare us to other 8-8 teams. I noticed that we were also the worst of the 2008 8-8 teams.

I also knew few of our cut players from 2008 had been picked up, but I was totally unaware of just how few had been hired. Scary.

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Sep 10, 2009 4:07 PM MDT reply actions  

if hochuli makes the right call, and gramatica hits a routine 43-yard field goal, the 2008 denver broncos go 6-10

we stunk, plain and simple.

by lolcopter on Sep 10, 2009 4:17 PM MDT reply actions  

Totally agree

I remember watching the hochuli call and thinking “that has to be a fumble. No way this is getting ruled an incomplete.”

by Steeplebomb on Sep 10, 2009 10:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

If Gramatica hits that FG

Denver is down by 1 point with 2 minutes to go, so Denver could still have won that game. So I think they should have been 7-9. But sometimes its better to be lucky than good, but last year karma bit them in rear in the final 3 effing weeks

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 11, 2009 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice work Chibronx and rec'd

This is another way of looking at what many of us have been saying — we stunk last year! Our record clearly exceeded our performance and the historical collapse was verification of a team falling in every area. Thanks for crunching the numbers.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Sep 10, 2009 4:22 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Wow

Great eye opener when put into perspective.

You should email this to John (or at least Schefter so he can explain it to John). I know Clayton has an email floating around somewhere.

"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden

by Randall15 on Sep 10, 2009 4:24 PM MDT reply actions  

Nice work, Chibronx

In particular, the point about the offense after the New Orleans game is spot on. Good work. I know that it takes some time to pour over previous seasons like this. It’s amazing how many of these 8-8 teams actually scored a lot higher than our supposed “machine.”

John “the weasel” Clayton is pretty much a tool.

As lolcopter states, there are 3 games we should have lost as well: SD, New Orleans and TB.

So I think we were probably lucky to get to 8.

Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.

by TJ Johnson on Sep 10, 2009 4:29 PM MDT reply actions  

Hey, wait!

I thought we were just a couple of players away from total domination?

In all seriousness, that was a fantastic post. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting!

DP Message Board Refugee & Drinker of Kool-Aid

I don’t like quarterbacks. - DOOM

by jubei on Sep 10, 2009 4:45 PM MDT reply actions  

This is Very Telling

The stats speak volumes, but are notorious, as many have pointed out. I am convinced, but I drink kool-aid. But the fact that hardly any of the players are on other teams refutes entirely what Clayton said. Very nice work.

by phondonkey on Sep 10, 2009 4:50 PM MDT reply actions  

Nightshivers...

I will have nightmares about last years team that far exceed anything that I have experienced before (including the nights after watching Alien).

Thanks much for the research.

by D1g1tal J1m on Sep 10, 2009 5:21 PM MDT reply actions  

Chibronx...excellent post my friend and rec'd. I miss NOTHING about last years team including ALLl coaches and players we lost!!!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Sep 10, 2009 5:40 PM MDT reply actions  

Calvin Lowry was used wrong and was TOTALLY underrated!!!!!

Just kidding. Great post, Chi!!! Rec’d.

Conversation nonstarters: hoping McDaniels fails, comparing Bears to Broncos, Cutler to Orton, apples to oranges, and casual drinkers to Raiders fans.

by broncosmontana on Sep 10, 2009 6:55 PM MDT reply actions  

I love how the trolls don't show up on posts like these....

tail-between-their-legs syndrome?

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 10, 2009 7:03 PM MDT reply actions  

If you haven't read Colinski's comment near the end of Zappa's post, you have to

He carefully, step by step refutes most of the poorly-remembered history of the Cutler trade. A whole lot of folks just lost their perspectives

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Sep 10, 2009 7:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

BS

we documented this long before. Check my blog history.

by rururuland784 on Sep 10, 2009 11:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

No reason to

If you’ve got any evidence that refutes anything Colinski says, post it.

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Sep 11, 2009 12:57 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great post

I can see a lot of hard work went into it.
thank you for that.

Rec’d

by papasteven on Sep 10, 2009 7:05 PM MDT reply actions  

I loved this ChiBronx

Thank you so much for the research. It makes sense why so many people disagreed with what they saw to be McD’s dismantling of a “potentially great” team. If they bought into the Shanahan ideal, then McD took apart a team that was one player away from the super bowl (like we’ve been told we were for the past decade).

Last year’s team was mind-boggling. They were either the most overachieving or underachieving Bronco team I’d ever watched, and the problem is that I couldn’t figure out which it was. The more I looked though, the more I realized that the Broncos were the beneficiaries of luck and surprise early on in the 2008 season. But once other teams caught up to what we were doing, it was all over, and after those first three games, we were a hopelessly mediocre football team. Your fantastic research is a relief, because I always felt something was wrong with our team last year.

Even if we’re 8-8 this year, I will not consider that to be lateral movement; it will be a drastic step forward.

by bowma101 on Sep 10, 2009 7:48 PM MDT reply actions  

The most overachieving or underachieving team -- and we couldn't tell which

I love the way you put it. My point above was really that the team was fundamentally doomed, that it simply had too many enormous holes to really go anywhere. But like you, I just can’t let go of the roller-coaster feelings from last season. Every time I tried to cancel my emotional investment in the team, it reeled me back in. Every time I came back aboard, they played a clunker.

Especially that home game against the Raiders. It was hazy and bizarre and time was unclear. It was like watching Last Year at Marienbad — a weird, sickly dream.. Every Broncos possession, the bears played the receivers in man. Every possesssion, Cutler targeted single-covered receivers on the outside, deep. Every single possession, the balls were batted down. And all the sudden, the buzzer sounded, and the score said 31-10.

So, I guess this whole thing was a kind of self-performed therapy — I needed to convince myself once and for all the team was bad, so I could start to clear the fog in my head.

by Chibronx on Sep 10, 2009 8:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Raiders have a very strong secondary

And our inability to beat man coverage down the field isn’t going away this year.

by rururuland784 on Sep 10, 2009 11:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which is fine

because we won’t try to do that. The Raider game was so maddening not because of our inability to stretch the field, but because that was all we tried to do for the entire game. It was like watching a child try again and again to push his square peg into the triangle shaped hole and never change his approach no matter how many times he fails. I always felt that last year’s offense was explosive and dynamic…but only for the first 15 scripted plays of the game. Once teams made adjustments, we were done. The Raiders game was a great example of the Broncos inability to adapt their game plan to what the other team was doing.

I think our offense had the pieces necessary to be something special, but those pieces never gelled in a way that made me hopeful for the future. Whether it was coaching, decision making, or just plain numbskullery, the Broncos always seemed to be less than the sum of their parts.

by bowma101 on Sep 11, 2009 12:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

What I saw was a team trying to take they were bieng given

but not having the talent to get it. Remember, a couple of those balls were very close to bieng completed. The Raiders were challenging us to beat us over the top with hard jam, single safety man coverage. We are going to see a lot of that this year.

Yes, our offense stalled out and lost it’s rythym at times. It wasn’t dominant enough to consistently win games in poor-field situations.

What I saw was a very young offensive team that was given the extreme challenge of having to carry a football team. First of all, it’s incredibly rare that young units are considered talented and competent enough to be handed such a daunting task in what should be considered a growth year.

Secondly, the young offenses that are asked to perform in such circumstances typically don’t yield 8 wins.

It was a young unit that had taken the brunt of growing pains, that was forced to grow up in, to face challenge and I thought the reaction was a forecast of a great future.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 2:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

And I disagree...

I watched every game from last year, again and again.
Please take a hard look at Jay Cutler in this game. Fails to check down close to EVERY time and NEVER hits his outlet reciever. How many times did we see easy yards forfeited underneath for the sake of attempting the big play. And guess what, this happened in every game bar the Tampa game where Cutler proved he could win the hard way with wise decisions and good game management.
This leads me to believe 2 things:
1/ The Offensive coaches could not coach a dog to crap.
2/ Cutler refused to take coaching, or was never held accountable for any decisions on the field. He proved he could play smart in the Tampa game.

Probably a combination of the 2 factors is closer to the truth. The way Cutler played was never going to change….and he did not want to change. This has been 6 years of playing this way…..and Cutler likes being the gunslinger regardless of the team concept and philosophy!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Sep 11, 2009 7:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

No...

Cutler took what he could because he was up against a good defense.
By maintaining TOP he kept our defense out of bad situations which alloweed them to make some stops. they did not suffer from short fields and actually had time on the sideline.
Lots of factors from this…..if Cutler had of played similiar against teams we should have won against it may have been a different situation.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Sep 11, 2009 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Your logic here is quite frustrating

Our defense was near the last in the NFL in most every category, including yards per run, yards per pass attempt, among many other things. Surely you don’t actually believe that the sole reason we lost games last year was becuase our offense was turnover prone putting our defense into bad positions? You can’t be serious. That was the one game our defense played well in. Why you ask? 36 pass attempts for only 168 yards— has nothing to do with field position. This team could not survive on a week-week basis if it was giving in to punt situations. Our five punts would not have normally given way to a win opportunity, but the circumstances just happened to be a littel different in this very unique game.

The idea that Cutler would have won more as a game-managing QB, is about as backwards as I’ve heard from this board.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

My question, RuRu, is:

How do you value a young offense Being Asked To Do So Much? To me, it’s like chemistry in baseball — it may exist, but nobody’s ever been able to prove it. What we do know, is the offense finished 16th in scoring, and that the defense was so bad, the O would have needed to be near the top of the league to get past 10 wins or so. To me, the idea that we can chalk this up to Asking Too Much of Them is insanely optimistic. The team was flawed, and deeply.

by Chibronx on Sep 11, 2009 7:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

If youth is a flaw

2008 team had it’s problems. They lacked a true vertical threat, a trusted RB. if you think you can apply flawed 2008, wait until our offensie streuggles to convert third downs.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 6:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well put

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. After you fail on a couple of throws, the only sane response is to call some seams, short outs, slants — any other route, really. The point is NOT to act like a 2-year-old.

by Chibronx on Sep 11, 2009 7:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not how football works

The general idea here is that the team is taking away those other routes and giving yout the one you can’t execute.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 6:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Funny.

I was thinking just a few hours ago that a post like this was very much in order as we head into this new season. Apparently, you were already totally on it. Thanks for your great work. I think the point was made well.

by NedBronco on Sep 10, 2009 8:26 PM MDT reply actions  

Great work

One of the posters commented a few days ago that we were – 2-3 players away. I was essentially stunned, but I’m glad that you killed that rumor. Good work, good writing. Rec’d

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Sep 10, 2009 9:45 PM MDT reply actions  

we also head a plethora of injuries

We were the best Yard Per Drive team in the NFl. Talk about red-zone issues all you’de like, give me one healthy runner with a little experience inside the 20, and we’d have a close to elite offense. You can change the kicking game around in one year. You can change the special teams around in a year.

From an offensive standpoint, we we’re close to bieng completely rebuilt in 3 years. That’s pretty good when you consider how projectibally great the core was.

by rururuland784 on Sep 10, 2009 11:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not to be philosophical

but isn’t what many MHRers consider to be laurels of the unspoken regime last season the way with which we moved the ball, created in large part by the offensive line and WR corps?

Sorry, if I’m not referencing MHR gospel accurately here, but I see another contradiction.

The sane, logical way of viewing last year’s offense is to say that is was a very effective unit, a very young unit with a tremendous amout of week-week burden that it was forced to carry. Compounding the pressure to score on every drive was the lack of a healthy red-zone back.

So, I’m not sure what you mean by “what it got us”?

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 1:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, let me sum up the 08 season real fast.

We started hot—white hot. There is no arguing that. By week 3 against New Orleans (If I remember right), things were getting a little colder. Then by week 4 things were ice cold against KC. Yes, we did move the ball very very well—in between the 20’s, which, by the geographic view of a football field, will get you nowhere near the end zone. So yes, we moved the ball very efficiently, but we puttered in the red zone. You can’t tell me it’s because we didn’t have a running game either. Denver’s running game was 12th in the league last year. The run game was a part of the RZ failures, but definitely NOT the ones to blame for RZ inefficiencies.

Compounding the pressure to score on every drive

Look, there is pressure to score on EVERY drive. That’s why you have the ball. When there was an excessive amount of pressure to score (being behind at halftime), then yes, it’s harder to overcome a deficit. However, you can’t blame that 100% on defense either. Our offense was also very VERY bad in the red zone last year. Cutler’s turnovers in the red zone stand a testament to that fact. Also, don’t forget that it was Cutler’s fault Hillis got hurt in the first place. If that never happened, then we would’ve had a healthy run game throughout the season with him taking the rock.

Our defense was very very bad, but then again, how many times were they rushed onto the field after a turnover? How often were they mismanaged? How many times did Bly and Champ (pre and post-injury) line up 10-15 yards off the receivers? Yes, the defense was historically bad, but it was a perfect cocktail of bad personnel and absolutely terrible coaching.

No one is doubting that the defense needed to be changed. But to argue that our offense was perfectly fine and just needed time to jell is foolish. Cutler would have NEVER worked in this system, because the quarterback position requires a blend of knowledge, instinct, good mechanics, and absolutely ZERO room for gunslinger behavior—at any point. No one will argue that Orton’s physical strength isn’t the same as Cutler’s. It doesn’t matter how fast the car is, it’s all about how you drive it.

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 11, 2009 1:21 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

No there isn't pressure to score on every drive

not when you have a defense that can make the occasional stop. I don’t know why I’d have to point that out. If this wasn’t a fundamental football concept, you wouldn’t have the trite notion of a :conservative" offense.

When we are put into 3rd and must pass scenarios on must score drives, Orton’s lackluster physical ability will completely undermine this new (you don’t need talent in this system) that you’re espousing here.

Moreover, now that Cutler can dump down and not unecessarily force to keep his team in the game, the idea that he can’t play in this system will also be refuted.

I’ve documented some of the young offenses over the course of NFL history, and Cutler’s 2008 offense was very comparable to some of the greats.

Yes, Cutler was to blame for some of our red-zone problems. But when you don’t have a trustworthy power-back, that’s more of the problem. The dual threat is the key here.

the idea that Cutler is to blame for Hillis’ injury, is crossing a line of irrational thinking I didn’t think MHR posters could cross, given how far out towards the loopy zone it’s gone.

This place is a cult.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 1:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Cutler at fault for Hillis injury is irrational?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HAiaY3vps

Watch that, about 21 seconds in. That stupid throw isn’t Cutlers fault? Hillis got hung up by a stupid throw from a quarterback that locked onto him, making the defense know exactly where it was going.

That’s not Cutlers fault?

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 11, 2009 1:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't need to see the play I remember it exactly

It wasn’t the best ball and Hillis really had to stretch out to make a play on it. But this is football. You don’t play the game to avoid injury, or avoid the potential risk of putting another player into injury jeopardy. If that were the case, every player who has ever played a few hundreds snaps would be culpable for another player’s injuries, and that would include every single QB. But again, this fits right into line with MHRspeak. Every act of the past is a transgression, every non-McD player is villified, every action of the present regime is holy. There is no grey area.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 2:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

MHRspeak huh?

I’ve never heard that one. What do they call that in America? Educated research I think.

You seem to have this attitude like you’re being victimized every time you speak. I don’t know why you feel it necessary to reiterate in virtually every post you make that people are just picking on you for having a different opinion. You’re different opinions are nothing we haven’t heard before. Your subtle jabs at the MHR community are a large reason why people don’t respect your opinion here. Or is that MHRspeak too?

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 11, 2009 2:17 AM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

For a (dis)respected opinion

 seems to generate a lot of feedback. I do think the board, in general, is educated. It;s a great board in many ways and I do think there is some great writing here and great research. That would be impossible to refute and that’s never been my complaint.

I’ve always been a guy who believes in varied discourse. Not as an access issue, nor a marketplace concept. Cogent back and fourth. This is of course an addendum to the very compelling front page stuff you find here.

I just think there is a cult factor here, a lot of worshipping going on and a lot blow-back against the misperceptions.

The fact that tiny little me, one little antagonist, can create such a hissy around here, is evidence of the board’s plurality and hegomony. And I don’t think that’s healthy.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 2:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

well nothing personal to you

but I don’t let your posts ruin my day or get me upset. I don’t let anyone’s opinions get to me because there’s no point. Here’s the deal ruru, I think you, just like everyone else, bring something good to the table. However, I don’t know if you realize how sick and tired everyone is about Cutler and hearing how he should have never been traded. Pretty much all of the regulars here are sick of people coming in and debating whether or not things would have been better with the 08 staff/players intact.

We’ve been there and back again a million times by now. It’s old news—roughly about 6 months old. Let’s get past it. 2008 is over. 2009 is less than 3 days away. Forgive me if I get defensive when someone casts a doom and gloom forecast for 2009 when the damn season hasn’t started yet.

I honestly don’t care about preseason statistics. They mean nothing—literally. Yeah, it was nice to have a shutout last week, it shows potential for our defense no matter who they were playing against. I’m happy about that. I’m happy about the new season coming upon us. If you want to continually cast a grey shadow over our optimism as fans, calling it “blind faith”, you’re more than welcome to do that, but don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

No one has a problem with criticism here, but criticism with little to no evidence isn’t something I care to take seriously.

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 11, 2009 2:42 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I understand the frustration of said topic

But the reality is, for good, bad or ugly, this was the move that will define the organization for some time in all likelihood. These things just don’t go away. But I have faith that the worst is over.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 2:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

If you say Cutler was under pressure to score on every drive

you’re also saying he didn’t handle pressure well. If he had we’d have been in some shoot-outs with him trying to keep up with the other team’s scoring, and after the first three games that just didn’t happen. When the other team scored a lot we tended to score very little. And his inability to rise to the occasion in any of the last three games, especially Buffalo at home, underlines the point.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Sep 11, 2009 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

No I disagree with this proof

First, If Brandon Stokely catches one of the two tds that was in his hands, none of this stuff exists. Cutler had some poor throws in the game, but he led his team down the field time again. Hard to say he didn’t come through in that game, but I know how it works here.

Also, I know folks like to pretend that everything Cutler did in the past was terrible and that everyone here has always known he was a bust, but the guy came through quite a few times for us under pressure in the 4th quarter.
 
Panthers and Chargers games were simply insurmountable games where the offense would have had to play perfect against two above-average defenses.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 6:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Your comment intrigued me ruru

It made me curious about Cutler’s comeback wins. So I looked back at the games on NFL.com

He led more comebacks than I realized. Out of 17 games, Cutler brought us back in 5 games (6 if you choose to include the San Diego game).

2007 v Buffalo, down by 2, Cutler leads us to the win

2007 v Oak, we had the lead entering the 4th, lost it on a safety & int returned for a TD, Cutler led us to a game tying FG in regulation & a FG in OT.

2007 v Pit, we had a 28-14 lead entering the 4th, Pit scored, we went 3 & out, Pit scored to tie the game, Cutler led us to a winning FG

2008 v Cle, we trailed by 10 entering the 4th, scored 14 unanswered points, fell behind again, then Cutler led a game wining TD drive

2008 v KC, game tied at 17 entering the 4th, Cutler led the game winning drive

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Sep 12, 2009 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

You and I both have faith that the worst is over.

Let’s get ready for a new season and let the past be the past. :)

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Sep 11, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

ruru

You are an arrogant jackass and that’s a fact. Every post you make yourself out to be better than everybody else (without facts to back up your inflated egotistical opinions) and MHR a cult of delusional idiots. Get a life dude.

by Endzone on Sep 11, 2009 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Unbelievable

I cannot echo the sentiments anymore from the posters above….well said. Rec’d

by the northerner on Sep 10, 2009 10:01 PM MDT reply actions  

great post and rec'd

wow?? good stuff….. I makes me think that Cutler is a lot better than I give him credit for. While I still don’t see him winning any big games, he could have been a bigger factor in getting to 8 wins last year.

For those that think….yeah, it’d be great to still have him…..No, it would not. Now, we have a system that is preeminent and all the players conform to it. Cutler wants the opposite and I think Chi is about to find out what it costs to get the “franchise” QB with the monster ego…..no, they don’t go together, only in Cutler form.

by BideshiBronco on Sep 10, 2009 11:25 PM MDT reply actions  

While the Patriots model makes this distinction quite clear

The notion that ego and Patriots system are mutually exclusive is silly. Moreover, doesn’t this support the notion that McD didn’t want Cutler. Better make sure you follow the MHR dogma. I see a contradiction.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 12:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think your obsession with "contradictions" and "MHR dogma" is unhealthy...

moreover you may want to see someone about that. I know you’re just trying to protect all of us poor, stupid cult followers, but I think we’ll be ok.

by AltReal7 on Sep 11, 2009 5:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

not sure what you mean??

ego and system are actually mutually exclusive……Seymour is learning that right now….T.Brady could learn it next year if he can’t rebound. The notion that Belicheck makes decisions like this and puts his ego before whats best for the team is a media creation. From that perspective, one which the media loves to project on Belicheck and now his two proteges, I can understand how a misguided fan who gets most of his info from the media would come to the Pats system and ego are not mutually exclusive.

The notion that McD wanted to lose Cutler or was forced to accept it is chicken or egg, which comes first talk…..either way, out of respect for McD, I think he had an idea before hand that a culture backlash would occur from former Shanny players, especially the vocal, whiny ones

It is actually close to a contradion……..Essentially, I’m saying that the team definitely won more games b/c of Cutler, but only a naive fan believes that Cutler = more wins indefinitely……to think such a thing is to imagine that the QB posn is just like the WR and a leader can do or say anything he wants to replenish his own ego at the expense of the team

by BideshiBronco on Sep 11, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't see what Cutler was doing to replenish his ego

Nor do I think what he did off-the field matters to leadership. Not substantivally at least. At the QB position you want a guy who is willing to put his body on the line (Cutler gets rave reviews here), a guy who if he has the physical ability and if his team needs it is willing to take the necessary risks to win. That’s a leader.

Also, you cannot se[perate ego from any football player, even if you view the Patriots to be system over player.

by rururuland784 on Sep 11, 2009 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

i'll let your comments speak for themselves

they show absolutely no understanding of athletic leadership…..Cutler regularly blamed others for mistakes (kicker, D, hurt RBs)….this isn’t leadership, its toxic selfishness/ego. It can destroy a locker room. More importantly, it appears to have been common place in the Shanny locker room. Here is where the Belicheck system comes in……it involves applying the basic principles of team/organizations and applying them EVEN on the professional level. For some reason, people and the media like to argue that some stars are bigger than the game…….this perception is a media creation and has little basis in reality. Certainly egos can still exist, but the whole point is that they are subject to the system. Everyone learns thru experience that the system will win (ie Lawyer Milloy, Seymour, Cutler). It only works when its applied to everyone.

Don’t let the media fool you into thinking that some guys talent is more important than a strict hierarchy and players that conform to the system. They’ve tried to do it numerous times in the BMarsh/Cutler fiasco. Why didn’t McD just sit down and work it out?? I’m sure he was willing (b/c its not personal), the fact is, Cutler’s personality is obviously one that is not willing to concede……The significance of the system is that the player concedes first.

The media tries to argue for coddling and the reason is clear. The coaches that take this approach kill their storylines. They kill their “creativity” and force the public to see the team as a team, or product of the coach, not a star-driven product. Then, coaches like this get blasted as egoists themselves…why, because the game is supposed to be about the players. What? Why? When? The game is about teams. It became about the stars and individuals when the media became involved.

The difference I was recognizing in my first post was that Cutler is not J.George as I had categorized him. He is probably more like Danny White with a big mouth. He may get his team to a playoff game, but even then, he will never lead them anywhere. NO team, NO defense is following that guy anywhere. Its still early…..I’m pretty confident we’ll get to see these things play out this year though.

by BideshiBronco on Sep 12, 2009 5:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm fine with him being gone - but it would be great to still have him

I will always be a bit dissappointed that Cutler decided to leave. I think a year working with a hard nosed coach with a knack for training and polishing QB’s could have turned him into a outstanding weapon. And he may have been taught that team first leads to success.
He’s gone and I’m behind Orton for this year, but I think opportunities were missed.

"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton

by odarol on Sep 11, 2009 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for the extensive research

It was painful to see how many starters on last year’s D are now just castaways. I’m very glad to see all the new faces on D and ST.

I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.

by Arctic Bronco on Sep 11, 2009 1:23 AM MDT reply actions  

Tremendous post, CB

Obviously, I appreciate your research and writing. You know I couldn’t agree more with everything you wrote. My look at point differentials (which should be completed sometime before the 2015 season, takes a slightly different angle. Thanks for this post; it’s important for Broncos fans everywhere to have proper perspective on 2008…

Enthusiastically Rec’d

by Douglas A. Lee on Sep 11, 2009 7:56 AM MDT reply actions  

Not only is this a great post

But you also point out what a Hack John Clayton is.

by Thnikkaman on Sep 11, 2009 8:32 AM MDT reply actions  

Nice work Chi

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa

by KaptainKirk on Sep 11, 2009 8:32 AM MDT reply actions  

wow..I mean, I knew we were overachieving at 8-8

but the fact that like 70% of our cut/traded starters from last year aren’t even in the league this year (not to mention the backups)….that’s just wretchedly bad.

The kool aid term has been thrown around a lot this off-season, mostly directed at those who choose to see the positive direction the team is taking. But I think the term is better defined as the stuff Shanny was serving us, particularly last year, when he guaranteed we’d make the playoffs and that we were just 1-2 players away from greatness. I know. I was drinking the stuff by the gallon – especially after that first game last year…before the wheels came off.

"When a new coach comes in and expects hard work, a team attitude and personal accountability over a personal thirst for glory, I won’t fault him for the reactions of a few selfish individual." ~Hunter Ansley, InDenverTimes.com

by Colorado_Kitten on Sep 11, 2009 10:11 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Great research Chi!! Rec'd

And bigtime roflmao on this one .

Does McD-Bag know no mercy? Of 10 – TEN! – 2008 starters no longer on the team, one is a current NFL starter. Three if you count all of his chins.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Sep 11, 2009 10:35 AM MDT reply actions  

What about defensive turnovers?

It would be nice to see the avg # of defensive turnovers the other 8-8 team generated. Denver had 13 all last year (2nd lowest ever in the NFL) but avg 3 points off every turnover. I bet you will find the avg number to be around 24 takeways. Adding 33 points or 2 pts per game to Denver ppg will put them into the top ten

But let’s not consider how putrid our D was last year

by baconfat on Sep 11, 2009 4:14 PM MDT reply actions  

ruru?

What are you talking about? Is this an attempt to make fun of Cutler bashing?

by Dwhite on Sep 11, 2009 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

No, the defense was totally horrible

but poor play by the offense (16th in scoring, 25th in T.O.P., 30 turnovers) and poor field position generated by the special teams, took a totally atrocious defense and made them look completely abominable.

Football’s a team sport that requires all 53 guys to be pulling in the same direction at the same time.

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Sep 12, 2009 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

See Chibronx's Post

Nice post baconfat. Chibronx an excellent breakdown of why we were the worst 8-8 team.

by Endzone on Sep 11, 2009 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

andre hall

was released today by Houston

The only difference between genius and insanity is perception

by Markus2112 on Sep 11, 2009 9:10 PM MDT reply actions  

Wasn't he the one

who fumbled on the first 2 possesions in the NE last year?

by papasteven on Sep 11, 2009 9:18 PM MDT reply actions  

Yep

And Cutler folded…you could see it in his eyes and body language. That was the problem that the 9’s in Chicago will soon discover.

by PredominantlyOrange on Sep 12, 2009 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

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