The Orton Handicap
by Something Clever on Sep 14, 2009 9:48 AM MDT
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First time poster.
What seems to be consistently lost in the debate about the Cutler/Orton trade is that it was not a “heads-up” trade. As you know, we got Orton and 2 first round picks (not counting the value difference between the 5th rounder we gave for a 3rd rounder). I think a lot of the informed fans get this, but I don’t hear a lot of MSM folks making this distinction when they engage in their obligatory McDaniels/Cutler homage before each Broncos or Bears game.
What I mean is that Orton should get at least a two 1st round pick handicap for every performance (at least for now). For instance, had Orton thrown a couple picks yesterday – the fans should have looked at what value was brought to the game by A. Smith (who looks great) and said “I’ll take two picks and a great new DB.” Or, “I’ll take a mediocre QB along with the potential of a good OLB” (Ayers). Or, they should look at the team as a whole. Believe it or not, some teams actually win with so-so QBs. We can still insert a new QB when the time is right, but Orton’s performance now should be looked at more broadly.
For instance – had we kept Shanny, would our D be as good? Had we booted Shanny, and McDaniels came in and Cutler hated life in Denver, but we forced him to stay – would our team be as good? If Cutler hated it here and had a worse year as a result, isn’t that alone something to add to Orton’s handicap? Getting rid of an unhappy player is extra value that is often overlooked. Are we better off downgrading in QB (if you believe it is a downgrade) as long as we improve somewhere else. These are tricky questions, especially if picks take a while to develop. But they should be considered when we talk about Orton.
There are a lot of moving parts, but out of convenience people compare Orton and Cutler straight up. This is done by people on both sides of the debate to prove the entire offseason, and by proxy, the entire Bronocs organization as being right or wrong. Each camp will use the Orton vs. Cutler stats to prove its respective point. A bad day by Orton/good day by Cutler gets all the doubters riled up and visa-versa.
Funny thing is, last night when Cutler was losing the game for the Bears, the media still were dying to anoint him as the Savior of the North. Right up until that last pick, you could tell the guys who write headlines were dying for Cutler to pull it off so they could write something like “Despite Slow Start – Cutler Rises to the Occasion.” Or – “Receivers Falter – Cutler Overcomes.” Or better yet “A Savior is Born.”
If Orton threw four picks, he would be eviscerated by the media. BUT – if you understand the handicap that Orton should be spotted (two 1st round picks) the media should actually be harder on Cutler and easier on Orton in such a situation. Cutler had four picks AND the Bears gave up two first round picks. They should march him down the street in shackles!
I’m not saying Orton should be excused for bad behavior. But maybe we should view him as what he is: a guy that tries hard to win and has good skill, but a guy who took two first round draft picks to make up the difference to Cutler. TWO PICKS. How many guys in the league are worth two picks? That is the DIFFERENCE (on paper) between Orton and Cutler. So if Cutler comes back next week and hits 3 touchdown passes, and Orton gets 1 – well, isn’t that how it’s supposed to be? That doesn't inherently make the trade a bad one. Yet the media and even some of the Broncos fan base will continue to view the trade as a bade deal if Orton has a bad night and Cutler has a good night. I think that is short-sighted.
Thanks, and I love the Broncos. And I greatly appreciate this forum.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Here's the thing...
These “experts” have been saying for 6 months that the Broncos are foolish and Cutler is the next great QB in the League. They can’t, and shouldn’t, eat crow so soon. In fact, that has been part of Cutler’s problem his whole life – from college to the pros – every ‘failure’ have been excused away by the lack of talent around him, or the superior talent of his opponent. He has yet, in college or pro football, had to be held accountable. When presented with a coach that will hold all players accountable, perhaps the QB even more so, he wanted out.
The mental aspect of what went down this spring is rarely talked about. Josh McDaniels is a fiery guy. We’ve seen him blasting Brady, Belichick, Cassel, in the sidelines in NE. No way Cutler goes for that. McDaniels knew it, Cutler knew it, and there was a divorce.
If Cutler never reaches the level his physical talent would suggest, it will be because of his mental approach.
-TSG
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by John Bena on Sep 14, 2009 10:01 AM MDT reply actions 16 recs
That is a great assessment GURU
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Sep 14, 2009 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions
very excellent point
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by Brian Shrout on Sep 14, 2009 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Someone said it here before...
“Million dollar arm, ten cent head.” May seem to be overstatement at times; but I still think it fits.
100% agree
As is stated elsewhere, the most important thing for the QB is what’s between the ears. Tools only give you a shot. Brains give you dominance.
I'm rooting that the Bears have a mediocre year, but not terrible.
Say 8-8. That would give us a draft pick somewhere in the middle to 12. We don’t want the Bears to totally collapse because that would mean a high draft pick and lots more money to dish out. This new system on offense will take time to gel and we should be very impressed by mid season of how we are moving the ball.
Except...
…there’s always someone willing to trade up.
A man does what he has to do, and sometimes it’s not what I believe he should do. There’s no reason to use up energy hating him for it. Shoot him if you have to, but don’t hate him.
Louis L’Amour
Not True
At a certain point, like in the top 12, there are far more teams looking to go down than up.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Unless you get a team that had a winning record
but needs a quarterback for the future…a “good” quarterback by MSM standards, which of course means a top 10 pick.
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
I just want the Seachickens to get their just dues for being "greedy" by demanding our actual pick over whichever is lower...
I hope we get all the way to the AFC Champ game and the Bears go 5-11…just to screw Seattle. :P Karma baby
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
Roger on that, Zappa
Just to cap the inaugural era of mini-Belichik “I win all deals” McDaniels.
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Sep 14, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions
The Football Gods
will look down on them for sure.
Tis better not to throw it to the deep receiver but the open receiver.
Plummer Factor
Orton is another Plummer. He ain’t pretty. At times you won’t understand it but he’ll make you miss him when he’s gone. Just like we missed Jake.
Orton will continue to progress and be fine. But it will take some more time. In fairness to Orton the offensive unit as a whole did NOT look good yesterday.
Good points, SPFT
One thing that folks often ignore about Orton – he has continued to get better each season. He’s in the early stages of learning a very complex offense and he’s still, obviously, thinking instead of playing instinctively. To expect that he won’t improve is in contradistinction to everything he’s done throughout his career.
My experience is that the folks who really still want him replaced didn’t want him in the first place. Our minds love to provide us excuses to maintain our prejudices.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Doc Bear on Sep 14, 2009 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
Don't forget
We got a 1 – 0 record yesterday. Orton is a Winning QB. Say all you want about stats, but in the end it is Ws and Ls that dictate whether we are in the playoffs.
It was a miracle win yesterday and our offense looked ugly, but we got the stat that counts.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Sep 14, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
had to rec this response
for a good thought and for managing to use the word “contradistinction”
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by Brian Shrout on Sep 14, 2009 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
agreed broncobear
and rec’d. Glad i don’t have to write anything else but “agreed” on this site. Means i don’t need to worry about looking as stupid as i really am ;)
Damn fine first post Clever! Thanks
Way to get everybody thinking. btw, I like any QB that will play with a dislocated finger on his throwing hand.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Looking at "The Trade"
Or the Broncos got two 1st round picks and a 3rd round pick for their former QB, and gave up a 5th rounder to get Orton. Which only reinforces your excellent point. But I’m not holding my breath until the football “experts” in the media get it.
Give me a “game-manager” who will take the field with to lead his team even with stitches in his throwing hand over a more physically gifted “gunslinger” who berates his teammates and pouts on the end of the bench when things get tough any day of the week.
Good post and rec’d.
5th round pick for Orton
Ya know, I never really thought about it but you are absolutely right! That’s what we gave up for Orton! Interesting thought. The Bears gave 2 first rounders + a 3rd for Cutler. The Broncos HAD to get a serviceable QB and so the Orton trade is really the 5th rounder. hmmmm velly intelesting.
Yep!
I heard Denver “traded Cutler for Orton” (without elaboration) at least once on the CBS broadcast yesterday.
You know...even if it was a straight up trade
I wouldn’t mind it. In this system, Cutler fails and Orton excels, it’s the nature of their game styles/smarts.
"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu
True
Great thought.
Let’s look at it another way. Remember those old video games where after a level you got certain “credits” that you could use to upgrade your car, tank, etc.? You had several options to spend your credits on: better armor, better guns, better radar, etc. But you had to choose which way to go and one would trade-off with the other.
I think the Orton trade, besides all of the other reasons for Cutler’s departure/organizational shakeup, could be seen as McDaniels’ decision to: accept lowering the “QB” slot (for now hopefully – fixed later by either coaching up Orton or making a change); increase the “team” slot; and put his remaining credits into the “future” slot.
McDaniels seems to want the best for the team, and we’ll see where it takes us (pretty sure I saw him get pumped up on the sidelines the second Stokes caught that ball – very similar to the jump in the air I performed).
Thanks for your comment.
by Something Clever on Sep 14, 2009 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions
It's emotion
You are absolutely right Clever. Orton and picks. It rocks. But we fans have been hearing all spring, all summer, all of training camp and right up until yesterday how bad we were gonna suck and it was McD’s fault for getting a crappy QB in exchange for a “franchise QB.” So despite being eminently rational about the entire trade, I am emotionally tied to the utter and complete failure of Jay Culter, the boy who dissed our town, our team, our owner and our coach.
If people aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat??
yeah that pretty much sums it up!
So despite being eminently rational about the entire trade, I am emotionally tied to the utter and complete failure of Jay Culter, the boy who dissed our town, our team, our owner and our coach.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I doubt it, EZ
Cutler is Lovie’s last hope. He is facing increasing antagonism from the fanbase and the rumors that the front office’s [atience is wearing thin have been around fr a couple of seasons now. I don’t put a lot of stock in rumors, but in this case, they are, at the least, reasonable. Lovie did get them to the SB but came home without a ring. The defense has been dropping in the rankings since then and with Urlacher out and problems in the secondary, it’s unlikely to change.
Lovie believed that Cutler would be that ‘one player away’ (hitherto referred to as OPA) that would give them the tools to match up in shootouts. In part, that’s because the defense is struggling and the shootouts are more likely. the issues with receivers and O line were kind of swept under the rug, and the coaches and fans alike assumed that what had been done was sufficient. Stories such as ‘The QB makes the receivers’ and "Mobility means that the O line won’t matter as much’ matched up with "Orlando Pace is on his way back’, Devon Hester is an elite receiver’ and ‘Omiyale was just not used right in Carolina’. Chicago may very well make the adjustments and pull out their season, but the uncomfortable fact is that the chickens that some of the MHR members wondered about in the offseason have come home to roost. Cutler will be used until the bitter end, because Hanie just isn’t good enough to start.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Doc Bear on Sep 14, 2009 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Suppose OPA is the natural result of coaching myopia?
I like stability, I liked Shanahan, and I think we suffered from rabid instability on the D the last few years. But, even Bill Walsh knew 10 years was about long enough in one spot. Did he see through his own temptation to believe in OPA, and instead implement GOH (Get Outta Here)?
great first post SC
thanks
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
we shouldn't just wave off the 3rd-5th swap as a trivial thing
based on the draft spot scoring system that everyone uses (for whatever it’s worth), the high 3rd minus the 5th was equivalent to getting a low 3rd. i think that’s why people started just shorthanding the trade as two 1sts and a 3rd (and ignoring the 5th back to chicago), because that was the net point value.
oops i forgot orton
… “shorthanding the trade as two 1sts, a 3rd, and orton”
The real question is this:
Will turner or Lovie Smith go first
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Sep 14, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Prediction
Shanahan is coaching the Bears next year. Broncos and Bears in Super Bowl 2012 (assuming the Mayan prophecy is incorrect)
Mayan prophesy...ROTFLMAO
Coach is a math major…Faith is, for the moment, out of style.
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Sep 14, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Don't even joke about that.
You thought the Reeves VS. Shanahan & Elway angle was overplayed leading up to SB XXXIII – just think what we’d be subjected to if Shanahan and Cutler were facing McDaniels ad Orton in the SB. I’d probably end up throwing a brick through my TV haflway through media week
Belief is accepting something because you’ve been convinced to do so, whether you like it or not. Faith is accepting something because you want to accept it.
by Hercules Rockefeller on Sep 14, 2009 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I think this is more likely as well
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
Nahh
I’m thinking Shanny to the Redskins and agree with Cowher to the Bears Should make this a side-bet thing
Not a tricky question at all
“For instance – had we kept Shanny, would our D be as good? "
No, because if Shanahan was still the coach Bill Nolan never even thinks about taking the job.
No defensive coordinator worth anything was going to touch the Broncos job with a 10 mile pole as long as Shanahan was in charge. They’d get little to no say in personnel or scheme and would be first on the chopping block if things went south.
REALITY STEP 2 THE FRONT
SAY WHAT U WILL, OR THINK IT BUT REAL BRONCO FANS WHO HAVE LIVE THE 4 SUPER-BOWLS BEAT DOWNS BEHIND RED MILLER SLOW QB CHANGE, DAN BONE-HEAD REAVES REFUSAL GO GET BIG JOHN SOME GOOD RB HELP ALL THOSE YEARS ,TO MIKIE SHANAHAN JUST LETTING HIS EYE’S CLOSE TO THE FACT THAT OUR TEAM MOST ASS KICKING YEARS WERE WHEN WE WON 2 SUPER-BOWLS AFTER DOING 1 SIMPLE THING ALL THOSE BOTH SEASON " WALKING HIS TEAM BACK OUT ON THE FIELD AFTER HALF-TIME W ITH AHUNGRY TO HELP PUTTING UP TD’S IN THE 3RD QUARTER AND LET EVERYBODY COME OUT AND CATCH US, PASS US , AND LOOK BACK AND LAUGH AT US . WHEN JOHN LEFT SO DID MIKES WILL 2 HOLD THE BRONCO’S PRIDE UP HIGH AS HE AND BIG JOHN HAD WORKED SO HARD TO GET THE PLAYERS TO NEED IN THEIR HEARTS. I KNOW AND ALL U REAL LIFE-LONG FAN WHO’S SOULS ALSO LIVED UP ON THAT B-BOARD SIGN DURING THE M&M BROTHER YEAR IN THE COLD WITH THAT 1 "NEVER-SAY-DIE GUY UNTIL WE WIN AGAIN, KNOW IN UR HEARTS IF JOSH HAD COME IN TO DENVER WITH THE BRONCOS AS HIS ONLY REASON 4 BEING THERE ALL WOULD B FINE NOW. HE ,CUTLER,MARSHALL, AND THE WHOLE O-LINE UP, AND REAL UP-DATED D-LINE WOULD HAVE US BACK IN THE DRIVING SEAT 4 A REAL PLAY-OFF DRIVE 4 THE SUPER-BOWL NOW AND NOT 3 OR 4 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD ,ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS TO STEP OFF THE PLANE IN DENVER AS A BRONCO IN HIS HEART AND NOT BE A N-E PAT HIDING OUT DENVER HOPING 2 FELL LIKE AND BRONCO SOMEDAY
Wall of Words
and ALL CAPS is very hard to read on a computer screen :(
by powderaddict on Sep 14, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Plus incomplete Punctuation only adds to the mix
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
if you squint, you can see marilyn monroe's face
by ssc on Sep 14, 2009 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then again, if I close my eyes completely
I can see Marilyn’’s whole body….
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
by Broncs Cheer on Sep 14, 2009 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions
PERFECT NONE REAL REPLY, THANKS 4 THE FEED-BACK
by ROQ THE OBLUE on Sep 14, 2009 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Try as I might...
… I can’t make hide nor hair out of what you are trying to say. I think it is a shot at McDaniels. Perhaps I am just on old geezer far too attached to the English language, but sorry to say I simply cannot discern your point well enough to respond. If you would like to try again without using the Internet equivalent of SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS 4 CHISSAKES, undoubtedly someone will reply. Nothing the folks here in the community like better than a good ol fashioned, knock down drag out discussion.
You want a reply, try communicating in a recognizable tongue
If I had to summarize, you said this: FIRE MCDANIELS!
My response: No thanks.
Engrish Muhhfugga!
Dost thou spæk it???
Peace!
by BringBackOrange on Sep 15, 2009 12:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Try English next time
With proper caps usage and punctuation.
by AllBroncsallday on Sep 15, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Find the caps lock key and push it
Even your screen name is in all caps? Hint: It’s just to the left of the A key.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
I can't make a real reply
because I didn’t read your comment. Too painful. Like staring into the sun. Take the advice of people who suggest you use punctuation and NOT all caps.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
So, are you trying to say
That you think Mike lost his will after the 2 SB’s and John leaving so you agree he needed to leave. But also I think you’re saying that Josh came to Denver with some alterior motive “an ex pat hiding in Denver” and that’s why Cutler left?? OK, if you say so.. Guess you didn’t watch the Bears game last night.
"as in football so in life"
Is this an accurate transcription?
Reality Step to the Front
Say what you will, or think it, but real Broncos fans who have lived the 4 Super Bowl beat downs behind the Red Miller slow QB change, Dan Reeves refusal to go get big John some good RB help all those years, to Mike Shanahan just letting his eyes close to the fact that our team’s most ass-kicking years were when we won 2 Super Bowls after doing 1 simple thing both those seasons: “Walking his team back out on the field after halftime with a hunger to help putting up TD’s in the 3rd quarter” and [Shanahan] let everybody come out and catch us, pass us, and look back and laugh at us.
When John left so did Mike’s will to hold the Broncos’ pride up high as he did, and Big John worked so hard to get the players to need in their hearts.
I know and all you real, life-long fans whose souls also lived up on the B-Board sign during the M&M brother year in the cold with that one “Never say die” guy until we win again know in your hearts, if Josh had come into Denver with the Broncos as his only reason for being there, all would be fine now.
He, Cutler, Marshall and the whole O-line up and real updated D-line would have us back in the driver’s seat for a real playoff drive for the Super Bowl now, and not 3 or 4 years down the road. All he had to do was to step off the plane in Denver as a Bronco in his heart, and not be a NE Pat hiding out in Denver, hoping to feel like a Bronco someday.
If I’m reading you right:
1)In your first paragraph your stating that you believe Shanahan lost his will to win when Elway retired, and let team improvement slip away so that other teams caught up and passed us by.
2)In your second, it is your assumption that McDaniels did not come to Denver to be one of the Broncos. I have a hard time believing Bowlen would hire someone who was not going to eat, sleep, live and breath Broncos orange and blue.
3)In your third paragraph, you seem to be implying that the only way we can be a winning team this year is if we had Cutler, Marshall, the O-line, an improved D-line and McDaniels all playing for us. The only thing missing this year is Cutler, and so far, we’re 1-0, while the Bears are 0-1.
4)Please define what it would mean to you to “be a Bronco in his heart,” it’s obvious that you do not believe that McDaniels is here to help the Broncos win games (his stated purpose for being here — to win now and build a culture of team to continue a winning tradition).
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by Brian Shrout on Sep 14, 2009 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions
He used actual paragraphs?
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
"Despite Slow Start – Cutler Rises to the Occasion." Or – "Receivers Falter – Cutler Overcomes." Or better yet "A Savior is Born."
That’s hilarious SC – are you a member of the MSM masquerading as a fan or what? If not, you ought to put this on your resume and submit it to the Post
Belief is accepting something because you’ve been convinced to do so, whether you like it or not. Faith is accepting something because you want to accept it.
by Hercules Rockefeller on Sep 14, 2009 2:46 PM MDT reply actions
No thanks
I actually don’t mind the MSM so much. They get paid to make noise and have people listen intently enough to endure commercials. They want to be loved or hated – that is their success. If you want them to go away – you have to ignore them (for proof of this, do a search for how many Jamie Dukes threads this blog has).
But can someone here tell me with a straight face that Collinsworth wasn’t dying for the opportunity to worship Cutler if he pulled it off? It was almost sad to see Bob Costas have to hold back and say something negative about Cutler. They were hoping for a happy ending.
This is how the MSM works: build up idols and profit from our worship. No big deal if you see what is happening. Stories (good or bad) drive the industry. I am not personally offended that there are several football “experts” who like Cutler. They are pushing an “interesting” story. I don’t think they actually hate Denver (maybe a few actually do) as much as the fact that every story needs drama, a good guy and a bad guy. The MSM waits for a story as juicy as what the Broncos have given them. But there are real people involved here and fans that have given everything they have for years (financially and emotionally) to follow this team. The MSM may not give much weight to the “real” side of the story.
So I try not to let the MSM “stories” get to me. I just live for moments like what Stokely gave us yesterday. That is the real substance.
by Something Clever on Sep 14, 2009 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
They certainly were hoping to be “proven right” that cutler’s the bomb, and Denver will suck forever for trading him.
They have a lot invested in this narrative, and will push it until they can’t. When that happens, they’ll simply switch to the next story, whatever it may be. That’s how it works nowadays- it’s entertainment and nothing more.
by AllBroncsallday on Sep 15, 2009 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Can't get no respect
Not only can the MSM not get over Cutler, neither can they admit they might have been wrong about McDaniels and Denver. I thought our hanging in there against a tough Cincinnati team on their home turf, never mind the freak ending, might have gotten us some grudging respect. Nope. Rather than revising their opinion of us upward, they revised their opinion of Cinci downward. The very first sportscast I viewed after the game remarked how horribly the Bengals played ’cause they lost to the lowly Broncos!
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
and John Clayton sucks. :)
Clever, I can only hope my first posting is half as insightful or thought provoking. Great job.
Like most of us here, I too am completely sick and tired of hearing about the “Cutler for Orton trade” fallacy being spewed by MSM too lazy or too ignorant to get the facts right .
Blues. Cardinals. Broncos. Univ. of Denver Hockey.
Also Nuggets, Outlaws (MLL) and Mammoth (NLL).
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