Chalk Talk -- 2009 Game 3; Denver Broncos at Oakland Raiders

Well, here it is. The classic clash of good versus evil, and one of the best rivalries in football. Join MHR's Chalk Talk for the pregame breakdown as we look at both teams' systems and players to determine the match-up issues and strategies that each team may look to.
First, these are two teams that should know each other well, given the division rivalry. Nevertheless, both teams have undergone some serious change in the offseason, so the preparation may not be a smooth as in the past.
Second, both teams are trying to answer major questions from the masses. Is Kyle Orton too careful for Denver fans (no glitz, but no INTs)? Has the Denver pass protection on the OL lost some luster? Is the new-look defense really that good? For the Raiders, will the QB ever click? Did the team deserve to beat KC, or to lose to SD? Which Oakland team will show up for the Denver game?
(All player photos courtesy of the National Football League)
Denver's Defense vs. Oakland's Offense
Elvis Dumervil (Codename DOOM) - Sackmaster
Right now, Denver's strength is the defense. Denver has a terrific pass rush (featuring DE/OLB Elvis Dumervil), and an elite secondary (featuring future HOFers CB Champ Bailey and FS Brian Dawkins). Denver's 5-2 look is plugging gaps against the run and protecting the LBs, allowing Andra Davis and D.J. Williams to look great at LB.
On the other side of the ball, Oakland's offensive line has injury concerns and looks suspect. QB JaMarcus Russell hasn't looked good (with the exception of a terrific game-saving drive at the end of Week 2's game). The strength of the Raiders' offense seems to be more geared towards the run, but Oakland hasn't been consistent in this role. They gained 366 yards against the Chargers in Week 1, but couldn't put together much of an effort against KC. Despite depth at RB, Oakland has stuck to inside runs, when perhaps they could vary their running plays more. Are they lying in wait for Denver?
Oakland is a vertical passing team, relying on speed to get the receivers down the field. Because of questionable play on the OL, Oakland is keeping the TEs and RBs in to protect the QB. This limits options for the QB, and in the case of playing against Denver, allows the elite Denver secondary to be the prime match-up on Oakland's offensive plays. Russell would probaly perform better throwing quick screens and short hooks (I wouldn't go for quick outs against Denver's ball hawks), but so far the playcalling hasn't shown this approach.
For their part, Denver can rely on the 5-man rush from their 5-2 look, and hold back the LBs to zone. The gap plugging should allow the LBs to stay unmolested, giving them opportunities for tackles in the middle, or to get to the edges in the event of runs there. Denver features 3 solid CBs (legendary Champ Bailey, solid Andre' Goodman, and rookie sensation Alphonso Smith), so Denver can afford to play man to man, while holding their SAFs back for deep coverage over the top.
Denver doesn't need to make many adjustments for this game. They can play their own style, and do well.
Oakland needs to spread the field, both in terms of runs and passes. If the 5-2 has a weakness against the run, it should be the edges. Oakland has good RBs, and should vary their runs to keep Denver guessing. A continuous assault up the middle isn't likely to faze a defense built to stuff the middle run (nor to faze a defense that hasn't gotten tired in the first two games), but misdirection and sweeps could force the Broncos to make adjustments. Not only that, but concern in the ground game would make Russell's job easier.
(Denver's elite secondary awaits a pass)
For Russell's part, he would do much better with shorter, higher-percentage passes. Denver has interception threats all over the field and is built to create turnovers. Going deep (the typical Oakland practice) shouldn't work here. Screens can take advantage of the two (somewhat) centralized Denver LBs. Instead of protecting the QB (allowing Denver to focus on ball targets), Oakland should probably try to get their TEs involved. A TE that breaks out to the seam is a bigger threat against Denver than any pass to a WR elsewhere.
Denver's Offense versus Oakland's Defense
Denver's offense has a lot of the same personnel as last year, but plays a completely different kind of football. Gone is Jay Cutler and the laser throws downfield, but also gone is the high-risk passing that led to many heartbreaking INTs. Instead, Kyle Orton plays a very careful, boring style of football that doesn't "entertain", but does keep Denver in games.
( "The Spleen" from the movie "Mystery Men" may have more in common with Chris Simms and his old injury, but looks more like Orton)
Kyle throws the ball away here and there, leading many booing fans to think his passes are off. But Orton picks his targets, and despite what the media will tell you, has shown that he can make the deep pass along with the dinks and dumps. With Brandon Marshall catching up on the playbook on the sidelines for much of the game, other receivers have stepped up and looked good. In fact, receiving star Eddie Royal hasn't gotten as much attention as in the past because the glory has been spread amongst fan favorite Brandon Stokley, Jabar Gaffney, and Brandon Lloyd.
Denver also has receiving options from a trio of TE threats, but Denver has no problem showing off the TEs in the dangerous 3-TE set, featuring Daniel Graham (an amazing blocker with good hands), Tony Scheffler (a great mismatch against most defenses in the air) and rookie star Richard Quinn (who has silenced critics).
Correll Buckhalter has demonstrated an ability to run and catch indifferently, and rookie Knowshon Moreno is showing improvement whenever he touches the ball. Peyton Hillis remains a threat up the middle.
But despite the abilities of these individuals, the overall offense hasn't seemed to click yet. Orton gets some pressure from opposing rushers, and Denver seems to rely on big plays on 3rd down to make up for inconsistencies. The offense is not "high powered" this year, and so far seems oriented towards intricate screens and yards after the catch (YAC).
Oakland's 4-3 defense has a lot of potential. On the line, the DTs are solid (featuring newcomer Richard Seymour). The LBs are fast, and the starting CBs are very good (Nnamdi Asomugha is one of the best in the game), and the safeties are legitimate threats (see Michael Huff's two INTs last week, to go with the one he had in the first week).
Denver should make some adjustments for this game. First, the weakness for Oakland may be lack of depth at CB. If Denver continues to use screens, they are using receivers as blockers instead of as potential mismatches against the Oakland CBs at nickel and beyond. On the other hand, Denver minimizes CB abilities with screens by using run blockers to clear them instead of challenging them in the air with the ball. It is a tough choice. I don't expect Denver to drop the screens, but I think this is one game where classic passing would hurt the opponent by targeting the nickelback. Denver can do this with the many 3-receiver sets they show opponents. Given the strength of Oakland's secondary, I wouldn't challenge them deep.
Andra Davis may hold the key to beating the Raiders
Denver also needs to decide how to attack the Oakland run defense. Oakland has a stout DL to protect the middle, and is experienced against the zone-block scheme. Oakland's DL also effectively protects their LBs, and those protected LBs have the speed to get to the edge of the field. So Denver will likely take one of two approaches here. One, they run at Oakland and try to wear them down. The other option (and the one they likely pursue) is to set up misdirection and disguises. Denver will show run, then send the RB into the slot to receive (or to block on a screen). Denver will use multiple-TE sets (both 2- and 3-) to further confuse the defense. Denver's TEs can run block, and they can jump out into routes, and this alone is enough to cause problems for most teams. (Note - Oakland prefers to use safety coverage on TEs, despite the speed they possess at OLB).
Special Teams
Sebastian Janikowski is a solid kicker, and the Oakland coverage units look reasonably good. Denver has had solid efforts from both the kicking and punting units, and coverage is much improved over previous years. Neither team fields breakaway return talent, though Denver has looked close on a few occassions.
Notes
The game is blacked out in Oakland, as the Raider Nation has failed to sell out their home game. Regardless, expect the passionate fan base to be involved unless Denver gets out to a domineering start.
Keys to the Game
Denver -
- Stop the run. Oakland will not win this game with a one-dimensional offense, and their running game is their potential strength. Russell needs the running game to help his passing efforts.
- Continue to be conservative in the passing game. Both teams feature ball hawks, and a key INT would be a game changer.
- Leave the blitzes at home. Denver's pass rush doesn't need any help. The CB/WR match-ups favor Denver, and any players held back to protect the QB limits Russell's pass-receiving options. Instead, hold back the LBs for the expected runs, and to zone the field.
Oakland -
- Don't commit penalties. The bad boys of football will need to find a role model other than their head coach, who seems to enjoy assaulting his staff. Oakland is known for penalties, but they ought to play a penalty-free game if they want to get a win in Week Three.
- Mix up the runs (more runs to the edges). Oakland will need the run game to win this game. Denver has a lot of options with a 5-2 look to stop the interior runs, but the outside sweeps are tougher to deal with. Oakland didn't do well with the run against KC, and Denver's stout protection in the middle should be hard to crack.
- Get the TEs involved in the passing game. Denver's CBs should have a field day with the Oakland WRs, but Denver wants their LBs focused on the run and their SAFs stopping deep passes. If Denver is forced to decide between covering the run or covering TEs out in the seams, Oakland can exploit either the run, the passes to the TEs, or both.
I expect a conservative game plan from both teams. I also expect a close game. Denver is built to create turnovers, and if Oakland wins big I expect it will be because they net more turnovers or the Denver defense collapses against the run. If Denver wins big, I think it will be because Oakland's offense is shut down more than because Denver lights up the scoreboard. I think the key match-up to watch is Oakland's run against the Denver Defense, but I expect Denver to win that match-up.
I'll take Denver in a close game. The game is key for Denver, since the schedule ramps up over the next few weeks. Denver needs the early momentum to stay alone atop the AFC West. A loss for Oakland gives them a losing record, and would be a blow to morale. A win gives them a respectable 2-1 record, and a tie-break with what would then beat a 2-1 Denver team. Oakland really needs the game more than Denver, and will need to play like it.
11 recs |
96 comments
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Comments
The strength of the Raiders’ offense seems to be more geared towards the run, but Oakland hasn’t been consistent in this role. They gained 300 yards against the Chiefs in Week 1, but couldn’t put together much of an effort against SD.
That should be week 2 right :)?
For the rest perfect as always! Thank you!
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
by BroncosNL on Sep 25, 2009 11:33 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the catch
It should’ve been Chargers, KC. I made the change.
by Douglas A. Lee on Sep 25, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks NYC!
Really, I should start hosting contests for these catches.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it will be close but a win
These games historically seem to either be blowouts or realatively close.
Great Chalktalk again HT, thanks.
by bchiper on Sep 25, 2009 11:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Isnt every game?
either a blow out or close? :)
There is no charge for awesomeness, or attractiveness!!
by Bronctillidie on Sep 25, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
or a tie.
but I guess you can’t get closer than a tie.
by trumanj on Sep 25, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a 17 point differential is moderate.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
1-5 is close
6-14 is moderate
14+ is big.
IMO, anyway.
by ELGee on Sep 26, 2009 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can We?
Can we really look at history when the Broncos is, at least on the D, a completely different team?
by Endzone on Sep 26, 2009 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps we can.
It never seems to matter who has the better team. Both teams seem to play these match-ups hard.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 26, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work HT, thanks for the lesson.
Now lets cruch those fools and send the raider fans packing. They’re going to regret trading their food stamps to watch the “donkeys” stomp a mud hole in them at home yet again.
"For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities (His eternal power and divine nature) have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20
by USMCWall on Sep 25, 2009 12:09 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Win moderate, abaout 14 points
That would be my expectations so far, but I find the Oakland team a bit schizophrenic in their performance. I agree with your analysis, but anticipate the offensive game plan evolving a bit more than you discussed, so I anticipate a bit more scoring.. I am pretty confident in our defense vs their offense; I sure hope I am right about that. A collapse against this offense would seem to be a very bad sign for the upcoming games.
by idahobronc on Sep 25, 2009 12:16 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Orton was 10 from 12 in second half...
Thats a taste fo things to come.
I always worry about the raiders based on history, but based on common sense and this years play, Denver should win this easily.
Better O line, better balance, D’s are equal and I like us better in coaching, special teams and adjustments….with the big difference being the quarterback play.
Orton vs Russell….I will take KO every time…and will in this game too.
Denver by more than 10!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Sep 25, 2009 12:20 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Great writeup HT!
Question though: Isn’t J Lee-Higgins a breakaway threat as a return man? He did well last year. Or is he hurt for this game?
by studbucket on Sep 25, 2009 12:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I haven't heard his name for the first two games...
…but he can be a threat. I’m taking into account that our STs coverage is much improved as well. We did well enough with Cribbs, and I think the days of Denver getting burned on returns is a thing of the past. We used to kick right at these guys, and didn’t allow the coverage teams the hang time to arrive. So far this year, we are playing smart on STs.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the same note
When have we come close to breaking a return? I must have missed that one.
by adamriggs on Sep 25, 2009 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may be my own bias...
..but it seems that we are one tackle away from making a major play sometimes. I may be letting some preseason observations bias me.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
I just haven’t seen it and was wondering if I was in a spectacular-defense-induced coma during some of the punts that almost were broken open.
Great work though!!
by adamriggs on Sep 25, 2009 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness...
I wrote in the article that “neither team has breakaway talent”. So I don’t think Denver is scaring anybody in this regard. Off handed (as many fans do), I think that anytime your guy gets ready to field a kick or punt, it seems that the endzone is one tackle away.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m ok with not scaring anybody with our ST returns as long as they’re not salivating to play our ST coverage.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
by odarol on Sep 25, 2009 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed 100%
I’ll take a poor return game (but with no turnovers) as long as my coverage team prevents yards from opposing returners.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"ll take a poor return game (but with no turnovers)"
Hillis, he’s talking to you bud. Hold on to the damn ball!
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Sep 25, 2009 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Higgins is questionable for Sunday's game
He has an injured shoulder and was limited in practice, but it is believed that he will play.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa
by KaptainKirk on Sep 25, 2009 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm worried about McFadden on sweeps
…and Miller over the middle. That those areas represent the two weaknesses of the 5-2 is cause for a bit of concern, which is why I think we might see much of Woodyard (or even Barrett) at ILB this week.
Any chance we may see our DBs helping out on the edges of the run game?
by JeffG on Sep 25, 2009 12:27 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Passes over the middle aren't so bad.
They require finesse (not a J.R. trait) and the LBs should be in that area. So far, Oakland is pressing the middle on runs instead of the edges (where I agree that McFadden should try). If they do, Denver can play the OLB/DEs in containment. Still, it is harder to protect the edges.
As for the DBs helping out, Champ has the amazing swivel, “read and react” instincts to hit runs to the edges. The SAFs will certainly be watching for runs to the edges. Dawkins should get a lot of tackles for any runs that hit the weak side. Still, if our line does a good job keeping the LBs clean, they should be able to roam side to side without being molested.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The view from Oakland
I live in Oakland (though remain a solid Bronco fan) and the thing that is odd to me, and perhaps contributed to the blackout, is the rivalry thing seems very downplayed this season…it is frankly more like if the Broncos were playing the Niners…perhaps with Shanahan gone, the personal venom is missing, but little is made of the historic nature of this rivalry…in fact, my friends who are tRaider fans seem a tad understated this year (typically they are planning for their Super Bowl victory despite the losing records they have enjoyed of late!)…there is genuine concern about the play at QB, and even in the media, this seems to be more like Game 3 than Broncos week….perhaps it is the economy (hammered in NorCal), or perhaps the fan base is weary from years of losing badly….in fact, Shanahan turned this rivalry into a a pretty one sided affair over the last decade or so….hope that McD can do the same….
Hugo Norton
by Hugo Norton on Sep 25, 2009 12:35 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
It didn't feel that one-side the past few years
As much as the Broncos were a consistently better team, somehow we always seemed to fold against the Raiders at the worst possible times. Like last year, when I just knew we were going to blow a game that should have been an easy win—Shanny’s teams started to scare me everytime we played bad teams, and that’s never a good sign.
I’m not worried as much this year. I think McD and the rest of the coaching staff won’t let any teams sneak up on us. We will be prepared for every game including those against the lower echelons on the league.
I agree though, Hugo. Without Shanny the rivalry seems less invested this year; there’s not the emotional revenge angle we’ve had previously. McD sees the Raiders as just another team, but that’s probably a good thing.
by bowma101 on Sep 25, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in SF
and think you make good points but mostly I think it’s the economy over all the other reasons. Fans are still into it, but maybe not enough to plunk down cash for what are fairly expensive seats.
Bums me out that it’s not on the telly here on Sunday though.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 25, 2009 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zone Blitz
HT, would this be a good week for Denver to break out a few zone blitzes? We’ve heard reports of Russell being more comfortable throwing down the middle of the field, but there are concerns with his accuracy and reads. Would this be a great time to start dropping the odd lineman/OLB into coverage, with the hope that Russell doesn’t realize what’s happening?
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
by Disco_Stu on Sep 25, 2009 12:44 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
and I expect Mike Nolan’s plan to involve some surprises and blitzes. They will try to plug up the middle, too, to try to force his bad throws to the outside. If he gets time and space to throw down the middle then the Broncos could be in more trouble. Hopefully Nolan will come up with some thing along the lines as you suggest.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 25, 2009 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no.
On the one hand, I don’t expect to see a lot of blitzes because we can create fantastic pressure with only our front five against a questionable raider OL. I would rather avoid blitzes.
On the other hand, what little blitzing I DO expect should almost entirely be zone blitzing. We only have 2 real LBs to play with (the ILBs), so if one or both comes in to blitz, I would expect one or both DE/OLBs to drop back.
So blitzes – few, but predominantly zone blitzing.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since Russell doesn't like pressure up the middle
do you think Nolan might contrive to get extra pressure there?
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Sep 27, 2009 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't be all that difficult...
The Raiders didn’t even manage to sell out the game, so the crowd won’t be much of a factor. Even when it’s packed, the Black Hole is pretty easy to silence. Halfhearted fans. Understandable as it may be.
The Broncos players are doing a great job of paying respect to the opposition. Overplaying JaMarcus’ ability, etc. That’s what they’re supposed to do. As fans, though, we can tell it how it is. He’s a clumsy oaf Tackle prospect playing QB. They have two rookies starting at WR. And while the ability to hit a home run is there.. I trust our guys to snuff it out.
JaMarcus’ career numbers against Denver are astounding for a guy who’s flirting with a 50% career completion percentage. Something like 30-40 for 400 yards, 3 touches and no picks. Proof that Shanny and Slowik could make anybody look good. Nolan’s schemes, however, are predicated on pressuring the QB – and as Rich Gannon so succinctly pointed out.. JaMarcus sh*ts the bed when defenders come within a few yards of him.
Raiders defense has really impressed me, and for that reason I expect KnoMo’s coming out party to be delayed another week, but I still expect to get the obligatory chunks of yards and scrounge up some points.
21-13. Us.
by ELGee on Sep 25, 2009 12:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff all.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Kyle Orton looks nothing like Pee-Wee Herman.
by ELGee on Sep 25, 2009 12:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL @ The Vote
Gotta love the honesty of the fans voting for the last option. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Sep 25, 2009 12:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a TRAP!
So we have a trap game here. A team we really SHOULD beat in oakland, followed by a “tougher” team in Dallas. IMO, the biggest storyline for this game is simple: will Denver lay an egg (a la Denver of the past couple years), or will the team take care of business for 60 minutes?
My prediction: It’s business time!
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
by Disco_Stu on Sep 25, 2009 12:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You know when I`m down to just my socks it`s time for business that`s why they call it business socks.
by legendarywalton on Sep 25, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
'Cause everything
is just right conditions are perfect. There`s nothing good on TV. Conditions are perfect. You lean in close and say something sexy like, “I might go to bed, I’ve got work in the morning.”
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 25, 2009 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorting the recycling
It’s not part of Business Time, but it’s very important.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Sep 25, 2009 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Making love for two...
Making love for two…minutes.
by bowma101 on Sep 25, 2009 2:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little sleepy....
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
by Broncs Cheer on Sep 25, 2009 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see this game as the trap.
I figured the first 2 games we should have won, but this game could go either way (leaning heavier towards a win for us). If we have a trap, it will be KC at home. That’s perhaps the easiest game left on the schedule.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im in the minority, I guess
But shouldn’t KC have whooped oakland last week? They ran for more yards than Oakland had in total yards. They found a way to lose of course, but isn’t that cuz they’re really in disarray, and not cuz Oakland is good?
IMHO, the Raiders are over rated due to their close game against the bolts. But two weeks ago we all thought the bolts were over rated.
Theres not a matchup in this game where the advantage goes to oakland. I gotta stick to my optimistic guns here, Theyre a weak team thats played weak teams in a weak division.
If its not a blow out, ill be very worried about dallas
by elvisalex on Sep 25, 2009 6:58 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
O and thanks for taking the time
Great breakdown. Very educational! Loved the pics too lol Rec’d
by elvisalex on Sep 25, 2009 8:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome HT, and Rec'd
I love reading your articles almost as much as watching the games – they make the games themselves that much more interesting too.
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
by Rzeppa on Sep 25, 2009 12:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Rzeppa!
I appreciate it!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another fine job, HT!
Thank you and rec’d
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Sep 25, 2009 1:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You are most welcome!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going a little nuts
with this not-being-able-to-watch-sports-on-TV thing. (Although in the case of the Rockies, it may save my health). But I also really want to see if we look good against the Raiders or if it’s gonna be one of those gut-kick games that seemed to characterize us vs. them before. D does look better. O is nothing special but has been getting the job done…
Good job HT, I’ll try to make an appearance in the game thread this week. Was meaning to last week, so of course then my internet died.
I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.
by Silverblood on Sep 25, 2009 1:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice synthesis HT!
Always love to read the chalk talk.
We have to avoid three and outs (consistency) or get some punt return yardage so Loechler does not put us in the hole.
"Kool-Aid Kool Aid, Tastes Great, We Want Kool Aid, Can't Wait"
by littletinybroncos on Sep 25, 2009 2:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
If I have a goal for the offense, it is to see them drive down the field a few times, and not to have to rely on either big plays or long 3rd down conversions.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
From your mouth (er, word processor)...
to McDaniels’ ear (er, eyes), lol.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Sep 25, 2009 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap...
…Knowshon and Stokely missed todays practice.
There is only One Moment—this moment—the Eternal Moment of Now
by sirsam on Sep 25, 2009 2:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We may be seeing more Hillis and McKinley this Sunday.
There is only One Moment—this moment—the Eternal Moment of Now
by sirsam on Sep 25, 2009 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't scare me at all
We have really good depth at WR and RB. Stokes is da man, but we have good receivers.
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Sep 25, 2009 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oddly enough...
…I feel that we have enough room to adapt that we don’t have to worry as much about injuries as in past years. Its a nice plus of the Ameoba philosophy.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One somewhat overlooked aspect
The Bronco D has yet to face a team that likes to run the ball and has the personnel to do it well. With the Oakland O-line in injury disarray it makes it less of a sure problem, but thus far the Broncos have faced a pass-happy team in the Bengals, and a team that doesn’t have an identity of any type in the Browns. HTs aside that Andra Davis may hold the key to this game could be more accurate than anyone realizes. McFadden and Bush are no laughingstocks, regardless of the rest of the team.
With the Hutt playing as bad as he is and Orton facing a real secondary for the first time this year, I fully expect this game to be decided by the running games – and the Denver’s O-line gets the nod, and the deciding vote.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Sep 25, 2009 2:40 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Cincy
is a pretty solid running team. They don’t have the array of backs the raiders have but Cedric Benson is a pretty stout back. Green Bays D didn’t handle him so well.
by gOOn on Sep 25, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pass happy Bengals?
Against us in week 1 the Bengals threw the ball 33 times and ran the ball 27 times. In week 2 they threw the ball 23 times and rushed the ball 34 times. That’s 56 pass attempts and 61 rushing attempts. Hardly a “pass happy” Bengals team.
I agree however that the raiders will try to run early and often. I would too if I had JaMisfire Russell and was going up against the Broncos secondary. I’m confident we can contain their running game though. Our D has looked very stout against the run giving up just 3.18 YPC to the Bengals (the Bengals averaged 4.4 YPC against the Packers) and a stifling 2.6 YPC against the Browns (the Browns rushed for 4.45 YPC against the Vikings).
Like you said, it will come down to the lines and Denver’s O Line is superb while oakland’s is sub-par.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Sep 25, 2009 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
starting field position
Guru alluded to this on MHR Radio last night, and I think it’s worth making a big deal out of it.
Taking a look at Football Outsiders drive stats, Denver’s offense is 7th in the league for yards/drive, while being 16th in the league in Drive Success Rate (drives that end in a 1st down or touchdown). The reason they aren’t benefitting more from sustained drives is that they are 29th in the league in starting field position. This struggle could continue come Sunday against Lechler’s leg.
Denver’s defense is top 6 in all drive stat categories, except (you guessed it) in starting field position, where they rank 14th. The defense starting field position is attributable to the offense’s difficulties, and it’s a further testament to how well the D is doing.
In summary, Denver really needs to get the return game going to relieve pressure on both sides of the ball.
Here’s a link, if anybody wants to check it out further: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats
by CoastalBronco on Sep 25, 2009 2:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
alot of that has to do with the special teams
The offense is (7th) averaging 35 yards per drive and considering how many times weve seen them start at the ten or inside the ten then 35 yards is actually pretty good . But the punt returning and coverage team leaves a lot to be desired .
We havent had anyone break one for even a solid 20 yard return or pin anyone .
I will say that all those stats are also a little skewed by the Bengals game.
by Hoopforia on Sep 25, 2009 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
These are great points!
If Denver’s shown a weakness this year, it’s the field position battle and therefore kick return game. This has to improve and going against Lechler and Janakowski is going to make this a challenge. Also, Higgins is an excellent return man – he burned us at home last year, so our coverage guys really have to be on their game again this week. These little things may go a long way in determining the outcome of a close game. Go Broncs!
It's "just" football
by Donkhead on Sep 25, 2009 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a couple of ways to approach this.
In my mind, I really don’t care about returns. What I DO care about is that we don’t fumble the return. If we just fair catch, or gain mild yardage, that’s ok with me. On the other hand, I want coverage teams to ensure that the opposing team doesn’t gain yards on special teams.
I think our coverage has been fine. As long as we don’t cough up the ball on returns, and as long as we prevent yards from opposing returners, I like our chances on field position going forward.
There are several valid ways of thinking about this, and mine is only one.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Guru that field position is key.
I think this stat will improve as we move forward. The defense is doing its part (as defense’s will do early in a season). When the offense catches up, I think we’ll be fine.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't wait to see how this game plays out.
Even though I’m a Bronco fan, I think the raiders are going to be a respectable team that cannot be overlooked. I still think we come out with the win though.
Great post and rec’d!
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
by broncoholic on Sep 25, 2009 2:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
At the start of the season...
…I would have had oakland as one of the worst teams in the League. They’ve been inconsistent so far, playing horribly but with flashes of talent. At that rate, they will manage to get a few more wins than I would have given them credit for.
I still think they are sub .500 for this season.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raiders fan
hope some of you remember since I came around frequently in the offseason to see what’s up.
Anywho, Denver is definitely a much better team than KC, but it seems like Oakland plays to the level of their opponent. Looked good against a good team in SD, looked horrible against a horrible team in KC.
The key matchup to me is which Oakland run D shows up. No matter what, this Raiders D won’t give up many points, but they give up plenty of yards. Only 72 yards against the Chargers, but over double that against the Chiefs.
But to me Denver is more like SD in terms of running offense. They don’t have that one guy who’s going to get in your face and tear it up all game. It’s a much more rotation based system with no really elite guy. If the Raiders D plays this running attack like they did SD, then this just became a defensive battle.
I have to think the Raiders D will play like it did versus the Chargers minus the horrible final two or three minutes. It’s at home, the team is fired up (they seemed kinda lax against KC), and they’re coming off a win. The D-Line seals the gaps forcing runs to the outside, where the sheer athleticism of the linebackers kicks in. And you can’t overlook a pretty good set of tacklers at CB in Chris Johnson and Nnamdi Asomugha.
Overall, this will be a nailbiter of a low scoring game. I doubt either team makes it past 17 points. The Raiders just simply don’t give up points very easily, and the offense won’t be scoring many points. One turnover will decide it all, whether that be a pick or two by Huff, or a bad pass to the waiting hands of Dawkins, it all comes down to one turnover.
I think these are two very evenly matched teams, but I have to give the win to the better offense. If Orton can manage to throw the ball before he gets slammed to the ground (this D-Line will get pressure no matter what) then I think Denver will win it 17-13.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
by KA1Z3R on Sep 25, 2009 3:03 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff KA
I agree with just about all of your thoughts. The defenses should keep the score low, and a turnover could very well mean the difference.
I also agree that the Oak defense does a great job (particularly at DT) plugging the gaps and forcing runs to the outside, and that the speed at LB kicks in at that point. Still, I feel good about the 5 man front of Denver and an elite secondary.
I think the Raiders WILL play to the level of Denver, and all thoughts about “which team is better” can be set aside. I expect both teams to be ready and to play hard. I think Oakland’s run game against the Denver defense is the key match-up (where you see Denver’s run against Oakland’s defense as key).
It will be exciting to see how this one plays out.
Thanks for dropping by!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
for the well thought out post! Can’t disagree with most of it. I think the Chargers are superior to Denver at QB, obviously, but Orton’s reliable and Denver has a wider spread of weapons on offense than (imho) any other team in the division. But they’re still getting used to a new scheme. The Raiders also have a deep stable of RBs. I could see both team’s reliable defenses shutting down each other’s solid running game and this game being decided in the air. For the Raiders to win that they’ll need the JMR who played well against Denver in 2nd game last year (as we all would agree, that was against a far worse, some would say embarrassingly bad, Denver D, but still he played well in that game) as opposed to the more erratic JMR we’ve seen more often. I agree that it should be a fairly low-scoring game. Should be interesting.
Good luck! (After Sunday ;-) )
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 25, 2009 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome back KA1Z3R!
You have to be one of the most decent fader fans out there. Of course I remember.
Good points you have here. I think this is going to be another grueling Bronco vs Raider game and mistakes are going to be key. Turnovers lose you the game first followed by penalties at bad times. We’ll see how it plays out, but my line was identical to yours…Broncos 17 – 13.
Seriously, though…are ready to see a new QB come in yet? I know they invested a lot in Russel, but the guy’s accuracy and consistency is atrocious!
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Sep 25, 2009 4:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
one thing with Russell though
two 2:00 minute drill touchdown drives led by Russell in two weeks. He’s easily the worst starting QB in the league, but he can really make magic in the clutch. I’m waiting till he gets his best receiver with whom he had an incredible rapport with dating clear back to around Week 14 last year in Chaz Schilens who is pretty much guaranteed to play against Houston week 4.
Two things though:
1. Russell gets higgins back. Higgins played bad against SD, but Higgins and Russell have as a good a rapport as Russell does with Miller and Murphy. Russell just needs to get the guys he has his timing down with back in the lineup. In preseason, when he had all of his comfort receivers, Russell looked really good. He gets another guy back this week, so watch out.
2. This is Denver’s first divisional matchup. Will be interesting to see how they handle the pressure of a divisional game, on a field with the rowdiest fans in the NFL, against a Raiders team which has been fired up and energetic in two tough divisional matchups. Can the young guys and Orton handle the pressure of the setting and the pressure that D-Line will be bringing? That’s the key in my eyes.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
by KA1Z3R on Sep 26, 2009 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got caddy-whupus on the vote.
I voted for moderate lose because you were talking about Oakland at the last, I didn’t see “Denver” in the block…dah. LOL. I like that “sh*t the bed” notion and if we see brown spots on his bottom then we will know we got him.
by bfree2bronc on Sep 25, 2009 3:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Unless he's wearing
“The Brown Pants.”
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa
by KaptainKirk on Sep 25, 2009 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sports Illustrated (online)....
..has always been very cool about carrying my Chalk Talk and MHR University pieces on their Denver page (as well as many of our fine writers). Today I see that Chalk Talk not only leads on the Broncos page, but appears on the main NFL page (it still lists next to the Broncos icon, but still, it is NFL page and not just Denver page).
I want to thank SI for the kindness they show in putting up the work of our crew.
HT
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 4:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’ve noticed in the past few years they regularly link to our blog. It really speaks well of the quality of the writers we have on the site. Way to go HT! :)
I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.
by sadaraine on Sep 25, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their power ranking is also more fair than most sites.
They rank us at 14 (which I think is fair so far). Their power ranking author writes,
Denver Broncos (2-0)
Two weeks in and I’m already having to pay very close attention to make sure I don’t have someone ranked below a team they’ve already beaten. Like I almost bumped the 1-1 Bengals ahead of the 2-0 Broncos this week, based on Cincy’s big win at Green Bay. Then I remembered a certain deflected pass that Brandon Stokley caught in Week 1, and well, lucky or not, you can’t have Denver beneath Cincinnati. You just can’t.
Some other sites either ranked Denver below Cincy, or ranked Denver below 0-2 teams. SI seems to give us fair play.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 25, 2009 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+2
My football IQ has has leaped off the page, due to the best
Sports Writers in the business here at MHR. Now if I could
just find it during the rest of the week… lol
Rec’d ofcourse
Go Broncos
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
by UB3 on Sep 25, 2009 5:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
An excellent take HT
Everything I’ve learned here points to what you’ve taught me. I think the raiders need to run the ball or make use of their TE position. On defense, I believe they are formidable or at least closely matched with what our team has done so far. I see the Turn over battle as a vital part of this game, and if the raiders don’t self destruct (penalties)as usual, then it will be closer than many of us think. It IS an away game after all.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa
by KaptainKirk on Sep 25, 2009 4:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks HT....Well done, again.
I’m new to the site this season (Donkeys fan for 25 years), but I’ve really begun to enjoy your Chalk Talks. They’re high quality, and I’m actually a tough critic having played college ball and followed the game my whole life.
I didn’t hear Guru, but have to agree that in a smash-mouth game between divison rivals it’s ALL about field position. I hope our return teams have something up their sleeves, b/c we really need to improve in this aspect of the game.
by SteveAssassin on Sep 25, 2009 5:06 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Raiders
After watrching both of Denvers games again I think that the Raiders D will be to much for the Denver offense. The Raiders D shut down the high scoring Chargers offense and Rivers in both the pass and the run for most of the game. And that is when the Chargers were fully healthy. The Raiders are a very physical team and took out so many of the Chargers top players during that game that they look to be crippled for the year.
The Raiders offense is a work in progress and you never know who will show up, the offense that moved the ball through the air and on the ground at will against the Chargers or the offense that played in KC. Russell over his last 7 games last year held a 68% completion percentage and as rough a start as he has had this year holds the NFL lead for all QB’s in yards per completion. Russell has also lead what should have been a winning drive with 2:00 minutes in the game agaist the Chargers and a winning drive with 1:38 remaining against KC.
As for your take on none of the teams having a breakaway returner, Johnny Lee Higgins is back this week on punt returns with him returning 3 punts last year for TD’s, one against Denver. The Raiders punter is also an offense killer just ask the coach in KC what he thinks about the subject.
I think this is the week that Denver is brought back down to earth for it will be their first game against a very physical and underratted team, I think the Raiders win big.
by snnyjcbs on Sep 25, 2009 5:27 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe, maybe not
I think this game will come down to who can execute better offensively. I think we can both agree that our defense are good. With that said, who’s offense would you rather have, denver’s or the raiders?
by milehighnation on Sep 25, 2009 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a quick Q
What is the radius of the tv blackout?
free special ed.
by Swissy14 on Sep 25, 2009 5:36 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
75 miles
Bringing Bronco love from 1,112 miles away
by kentuckybronco on Sep 25, 2009 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raiders vs Chargers
I have to say that it was my impression that the Chargers played extremely poorly against the raiders. both their offensive and defensive lines just weren’t up to standard and the Chargers secondary has been vulnerable for the past two years. Cromartie was injured last season, but I’m not sure whey he still isn’t playing well.
I think that this game will go a long way towards answering whether the Chargers played badly or the raiders played well. If the raiders can slow the Broncos, I’ll be impressed. If not, I’ll just recognize that they are much more the team that snuck a win past the Chiefs, who outclassed them in most aspects of the game, than the team that played the Chargers. If OAK doesn’t do well against us, it also bodes well for our performance against SD. There’s a lot riding on this game, to me.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 25, 2009 6:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
I loved “I’m a Raider fan that came to screw up your poll”.
I’m feeling good heading into Sunday. Who’d ever think that all Denver needed to do was adjust their defense after all these years?!
Say hello to my fast...
by dcrespo7 on Sep 25, 2009 7:49 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Broncos 20 Raiders 16
Just my opinion.
"He can take his'n n beat your'n, or he can take your'n n beat his'n." Florida A&M Coach Jake Gaither on Alabama Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant.
by turnerstoe on Sep 25, 2009 10:20 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You all are crazy!
I love the option, I just came over to screw up your poll! We are going to kick your arses all the way back to Denver! I can’t stand all the orange! Yuck! We are that good donkeys!
Go Raiders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by slvrnblktilidi on Sep 25, 2009 11:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good luck!
P.S. You should ask a good friend to hide your razor blades and unplug the toaster that’ll be sitting by your bathtub in Q4=)
by elvisalex on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are what good donkeys?
Which good donkeys are you?
I do like someone using a hundred exclamation points to express extreme cockiness for a team that has the worst record in football over the last 5 years. But good luck. Hope it’s a good game.
Oh, and as a present for you:

The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 25, 2009 11:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most annoying prediction
from the Charlotte Observer:
DENVER* at OAKLAND: The Broncos* have introduced the asterisk to the NFL standings this year. The Broncos* are 2-0 but because they’ve beaten Cleveland and Cincinnati it doesn’t count as an official 2-0. The asterisk will remain if the Broncos* beat the Black Hole this weekend. Not going to happen. Black Hole 31, Broncos* 21.
What kind of garbage is that? Did they cheat? Should they give back their wins because they won handily in one game and beat a pretty solid team on the road on a last second play in the other? And if they win this week they still have an asterisk? What an a**.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
by underdog on Sep 26, 2009 12:33 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Saw this is another thread. I’m pretty sure it’s a fan submission. I wonder how long it will take before he removes the asterisk. Dallas is kind of struggling.. they probably don’t count.
by ELGee on Sep 26, 2009 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Writer
Nope, ElGee. The author is a writer for the Charlotte Observer.
by Endzone on Sep 26, 2009 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm feeling better about the upcoming DAL game.
I want to see what happens for both teams this week, but DAL looks a little easier to me so far.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Sep 26, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

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