The Dude Abides...The Stats That Don't Lie, Week 3.
Fate laughs at probabilities. -- Lytton E.G Bulwer
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The defense was rock solid, the Broncos won again, and Ryan Clady was so dominate, they pulled his dreadlocks.
Somewhere Al Davis is crying like a little girl.
Not a bad week, my friends.
Here are the Stats That Don't Lie for Week 3, where we take a look at the games from the simple (yet profound) perspective of the following four stats (in order of importance): Turnovers, Field Position, Time of Possession, and 3rd Down . For those who are just seeing this for the first time, another quick review. There is a MAJOR correlation between winning a football game and those four stats.
For those that want a primer, or who want to look at Week 1 and Week 2, you can look here:
Before we get to the numbers, a few comments. Denver once again won the battle in all four categories and you saw the result. Not just a win, but a dominating win. I'll keep saying this until it's proven wrong (ain't happening). If you win these 4 categories, you will win the game, whether John Elway or Pappa Smurf is your QB.
The crazy game of the week was clearly Pittsburgh vs. Cincinnati, in which the Steelers dominated all the categories, except turnovers. And if you want to stop the Jets juggernaut, just know that their average starting field position thus far through three games is the 36 yard line. This almost a full 7 yards better than the league average.
Here is the summary of week 3
- The team that won the turnover battle won 16 of 16 games played (100%).
- The team that won the time of possession battle won 13 of 16 games played (81%).
- The team that had better third down efficiency won 11 of the 16 games played (69%).
- The team that had better average starting field position won 11 of the 16 games played (69%).
- There were 6 games this week in which a team won all four categories. They also won all 6 of these games (100%). For the season, this stat is 15 out of 15 games.
- The winning teams this week averaged .81 turnovers, 32:23 in time of possession, 38.5% on 3rd downs, and their average starting field position was the 30 yard line.
- Top 5 in turnovers (not given up): Six teams tied with 0.
- Top 5 in time of possession: 1.NYG 2.DAL 3.DET 4.DEN (yeah!) 5.PIT
- Top 5 in 3rd downs: 1.NYG 2.DET 3.SD 4.MIN 5. PIT
- Top 5 in avg. starting field position: 1.NYJ 2.DEN (yeah!) 3.CHI 4.GB 5. PHI
- Of the 48 games that have been played this season, 89.5% were won by the team with less turnovers, 70.83% with a better time of possession, 62.50% by the team who won on 3rd down, and 75% by the team that won the field position battle.
As an aside, I had a request last week to benchmark these stats against a running average weekly total (three week average) so I give you those now as well in case you want to look at each team against a running 3 week average of all teams:
- 3-week running average, turnovers (all teams): 1.55
- 3-week running average, time of possession (all teams): 30:02 (thanks to the TEN/PIT week 1 game where there was over 64 minutes of total TOP)
- 3-week running average, 3rd down efficiency (all teams): 36.75%
- 3-week running average, starting field position (all teams) 29.01 yard line
Now on to the games. I've again included a very brief comment on each game. Look forward to your comments.
Score TOs TOP Third Down Field Pos Comment
CLE 3 4 28:42 25.00% 23.92 Give the ball up 4 times, here is the result.
BAL 34 1 31:18 36.36% 32.18
WAS 14 1 23:12 20.00% 23.40 Welcome to the land of 0 turnovers, Lions
DET 19 0 36:48 55.56% 18.50
JAC 31 1 30:52 45.45% 22.64 Even, except for turnovers
HOU24 2 29:08 40.00% 30.80
ATL 10 1 39:49 22.22% 26.67 Atlanta putrid on 3rd downs.
NE 26 0 20:11 44.44% 25.56
GB 36 0 30:19 23.08% 35.85 T.t.t.t.turnovers.
STL 17 3 29:41 33.33% 22.75
NYG 24 0 43:38 62.50% 29.30 0% on 3rd downs will get you beat.
TB 0 1 16:22 0.00% 23.60
TEN 17 4 27:22 28.57% 30.00 Jets benefit from stellar field position.
NYJ 24 2 32:38 25.00% 43.65
KC 14 1 34:03 0.00% 29.08 0% on 3rd downs get you beat again.
PHI 34 1 25:57 46.15% 33.00
SF 24 1 27:51 0.00% 26.86 Ditto above
MIN 27 1 32:09 50.00% 28.23
NO 27 1 33:34 33.33% 32.64 Buffalo horrible on 3rd downs
BUF 7 2 26:26 14.29% 21.50
CHI 25 2 30:24 33.33% 36.23 Lost in the JC talk...field position
SEA 19 2 29:36 41.18% 30.08
PIT 20 1 34:42 50.00% 32.60 Pit wins everything but the turnovers
CIN 23 0 25:18 25.00% 28.56
DEN 23 1 36:15 41.67% 37.80 Domination if all 4 categories = Win
OAK 3 3 23:45 30.00% 24.90
MIA 13 2 32:27 41.67% 28.10 Turnovers and TOP.
SD 23 1 27:33 50.00% 31.89
IND 31 1 31:42 27.27% 25.69 Ignore stats when Peyton's playing.
ARZ 10 3 28:18 28.57% 27.92
CAR 7 3 22:56 12.50% 17.27 Carolina can't convert 3rd downs.
DAL 21 0 37:04 36.36% 24.60
In week 3, both the Cowboys and Broncos dominated all 4 categories. Somethings got to give in week 4. Let's hope that it's Tony Romo's face into turf with a loose ball.
Go Broncos!!
My last stat: 12.5% chance that Kyle Orton has a neckbeard this week.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Comments
Nice, loving the stats. I wonder how much attention McD pays to these “4 pillars of awesome”.
Thanks for taking the time, once again.
aluffabo
Appreciate you taking the time to read them.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Wow great stuff
Can’t wait to plagiarize it tomorrow at work while I bash my coworker’s teams over email :)
Mr. Lebowski,...I just got a, an informal report, uh, that a uh,
…maybe TOP ain’t what it’s cracked up to be. At least many football nerds (guilty) question whether teams win because they control TOP or whether they control TOP because they’re winning.
Notice that when a team wins but lost the TOP battle they usually win in the closing minutes. See Cinn v. Pitt this week and Indy v. Miami last week.
SWG
For a Slow White Guy, are pretty active today!
Well you must certainly be using the Football Outsiders argument, which is pretty valid. I should link to it in my next post. Essentially the argument goes like this. They are using the pass to establish the run, and by the 4th quarter, they are running the ball a lot, which eats up a lot of clock, and thus, they win the TOP, which refutes the concept that you need to “establish the run.”
Sold, SWG. I would say that last year when I looked at all 265 games individually, the team that won TOP won 7 out of every 10 games. So no matter how you get there….just get there.
For me, if I was stranded on a desert island and I had to pick 2 of these, I would choose Turnovers and Field Position.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
FO
has a good article and analysis on TOP but the debate actually goes back much farther. In the 70s Don Coryell had the St Louis Cardinals flying high with Air Coryell v.1. They were winning games but not controlling the ball. How did they do it? A high powered offense combined with a bend but don’t break defense that focussed on generating turnovers rather than stops. It was in the late 70s that, then Pats OC, Ron Ernhart coined the phrase “pass to score; run to win.”
In the 80s the Bengals and the Chargers both had winning teams that didn’t control TOP. The Chargers with Air Coryell v2 and the Bengals with their no-huddle offense. In the late 80s/early 90s the Bills dominated the AFC with their no-huddle K-gun offense. Parcells/Belickick upset them in the SB by FORCING them to control TOP. Belichick had to convince his players that they would win if they FORCED Thurman Thomas to run for 100 yards! The next year the Broncos almost upset the Bills in the AFCC by forcing them to control TOP. The Broncos actually kept the prolific Bills offense out of the endzone.
Having said all that, I do think this Broncos team needs to at least hold their own on TOP and like you if I had to chose one I would chose winning the turnover battle. Win that and you probably also win field position.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 30, 2009 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Interesting Article
on Time of Possession at Advanced NFL Stats.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 30, 2009 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Which is cause, which effect?
Even if TOP is not causal here, it can still be used as an indicator of success. There is a relationship between the two, but you could argue which of the two causes the other. I’d argue that there are cases for both.
Example scenario: Early in the game, low score — either 0-0 tie or a single score lead. Your team eats clock in a long drive that ends in a TD. 15 plays, 7 minutes off the clock. Didn’t happen because the team was winning, but it would definitely reflect a level of dominance in the game. Late quarter clock eating, yes, you might argue that the TOP battle is won because your team is ahead. Early (1st half) clock eating drives, probably not.
Interestingly, the TOP buster is the quick-strike score late in the game. If you score quickly enough to keep it close, you can go ahead even though the other team is grinding it out. See: Miami vs. Indianapolis this year. Red zone efficiency can probably be correlated with TOP and win/loss.
by BroncosBassist on Sep 30, 2009 7:39 AM MDT up reply actions
The real TOP buster...
the fumbled KO. Team A scores – kicks off – and scores quickly again. See NYJ v. Tenn.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 30, 2009 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Love DEN in the top tier for field position!
What a huge improvement over years past!!! And lookie at Detroit in 3rd down conversion…. surprising, but they have scored this year.
Dude, I have to ask
Can Al Davis actually cry, I figured his mummified remains would not be able to produce saline, as most of his fluids must of been replaced with some inorganic material at this point in the process. I am guessing he was crying, but likely sounded more like a rabbit when it is getting killed by a coyote or when cats have sex, both are distrurbing in their own ways.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
He's filled with Soylent Green!
Good work Dude. Many thanks.
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa
by KaptainKirk on Sep 29, 2009 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions
I would say if you kicked him in the balls he might
…but that would be giving him credit for a pair.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
If there's anything the Undead possesses, it's a brass pair.
Why the hell else would he be able to draft DHB 5th overall, when the guy can’t:
A) Run routes
B) Catch passes
Tiene cojones grandes. Muy.
by BroncosBassist on Sep 30, 2009 7:42 AM MDT up reply actions
bfree, thanks, I will go back and correct that in a moment
sometimes the nfl.com site has to re post these things and I need to go back and get the number. Thanks for catching this!
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Let's see if these stats...
can predict the outcome of the Den-Dal game.
Over the last three games…
Den 0.67TOs 31:50TOP 39.36%TDE 29.36AveFP
Dal 1.33TOs 29:34TOP 40.30%TDE 25.20AveFP
Denver should win the Turnover and FieldPosition battles and be even with Dallas for Time of Possession and Third Down Efficiency.
Should be a close game with the edge going to the Broncos 24-20.
2+ minutes of TOP is significant. I’d give Denver the edge there, too. I’m not sure if 1% on 3rd down is or isn’t, so I can’t quibble with a push on that one.
by BroncosBassist on Sep 30, 2009 7:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Ace
I am using a similar system for my weekly picks now, but weighting each category. I give the most weight to turnovers, and the least to 3rd downs. Then I have a raw number for each team. The team with the highest number is the one I pick.
Who knows how good it will be. Hell, I’ll probably go sub .500. But it will be interesting. Thanks for this post, man.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Care to keep us posted on your pick 'em record?
I’d be interested to see what the week-by-week outcome is. Probably won’t be any worse than most ‘experts’ on the tee-vee.
by BroncosBassist on Sep 30, 2009 7:48 AM MDT up reply actions
Mine is always
better than the tee-vee analysts…but I’m kicking myself for wimping out on the Detroit game, I picked ’em and then changed it…I hate when that happens…
Not all change is good, just as not all movement is forward.
burninated.
"I want this team to be tough, smart and prepared to play well under pressure...Everybody here in this organization is going to be held accountable to do their job — their piece of the puzzle to make this team a competitor for a championship every season." J-Mac
by Jay Fin Anderson on Sep 30, 2009 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions
if they suck, I'll just say I forgot...if I go 100%, I'll start a company..no problem
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Almost an outlier
I noted (and also watched the game) where the 49ers ALMOST were the big exception to the rule (win all 4 categories and you win the game)…it took an absolutely incredible/lucky/inevitable play by Brett Favre and his receiver to defeat the niners despite the fact that they lost (turnovers tied at 1) all 4 categories….and it was odd, while watching the game, because it seemed to be a fairly even game aside from the ineptness the niners had on 3rd down…
in any event, outstanding analysis…
Hugo Norton
What gets me
is how did SF score 24 points without a single converted third down? that’s just ridiculous.
Good question
They did punt 9 times (Minnesota punted 6 times) so it’s not like they kept getting first downs on second down. They did score a TD on a blocked FG attempt that was run back for the TD.
A man does what he has to do, and sometimes it’s not what I believe he should do. There’s no reason to use up energy hating him for it. Shoot him if you have to, but don’t hate him.
Louis L’Amour
Big plays on 1st and 2nd/defensive penalties to sustain drives
If you have drives that never need a 3rd down conversion, you can do ok without efficiency. It’s sort of the exception that proves the rule, though. Most of the time the Dude’s stats won’t lie.
by BroncosBassist on Sep 30, 2009 7:46 AM MDT up reply actions
I think that's a flaw
in the way the NFL keeps stats. If you ask me, a 1st down by penalty on 3rd down shoudl count as a 3rd down conversion, but the NFL acts like the play didn’t happen.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 30, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Dude,
There is a health care bill working its way through congress right now. People are trying to identify the problems within that complex system. You need to help them by breaking the numbers and identifying trends…
STAT!!!
as long as you're paying attention
Love these stats, Mr. Lebowski
Always look forward to posts from El Duderino.
Love this series
By the end of the season, there will be a ton of people on this site who get what you are saying (which has been a truism in the NFL forEVER).
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
let's hope
I will be curious to see if there is any game this year in which you can lose these 4 stats and win. I am very very curious.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
"Top 5 in turnovers (not given up): Six teams tied with 0."
Just need to use “Takeaways” to make it crystal clear. It can be confusing. Go Broncos!
Not all change is good, just as not all movement is forward.
Trog, consider it done, thanks for the recommendation
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
oh yeah rec'd
Dude, my favorite post every week, keep it up!
Not all change is good, just as not all movement is forward.
Excellent as always!
Keep these coming! I love taking a look at how each team does in the 4 key stats each week. Great job Lebowski! Oh, & Rec’d of course.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
I wonder how penalties can skew these stats....
you often see teams moving the ball well but not scoring and when you look deeper you see that they had 85 yards on penalties with a few coming on 3rd down…it would be interesting to see how penalties factor into this study.
T.Dot
Good point, I am sure that there is a small amount of that happening. I will have to go back through if I have time and take a look.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
One thing puzzles me
How is the average TOP at 29:56? Summing all the TOP for a given week should give 60 * # of games…then dividing by # of teams should give 30 minutes each. Unless ST plays give a couple second void…
"Don't feed the trolls. Remember to be polite. And please show self-restraint in comment length!" -Me, to myself, because I need constant reminding.
Stu,
I had a few numbers off. I am making sure they are accurate now. Hillis found one for me. It will change is only very very slightly.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Stu, will fix that shortly
In an overtime game, there were be more total time, so it would adjust slightly up, but I have the numbers fixed now.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
One flaw with the concept...
Always enjoy your posts btw. One flaw I see with you system is that it does not take into account how much a team dominates a particular stat. For example, (to take it to an extreme), I would not be surprised at all if a team won the game with a plus 20 takeaway edge for game while losing the other 3.
You’re a stats guy, maybe you can have an adjusted system based on domination in each of the 4 stats:)
by Bronco Fan Doug on Sep 30, 2009 1:21 PM MDT reply actions
Doug, Excellent Point
I haven’t given much thought to it, but you are right. If I have 1 turnover, and my opponent has 4, this is a much better outcome than if I win the other 3 categories, but only slightly.
I will ponder this. I have a spread from last year’ 265 games that I could mess around with for awhile to see some correlation between simply winning a category and dominating it.
Thanks for bringing this up. Now you have me thinking…this is dangerous, man.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
How about Penalties
Great stuff Lebowski! I was just curious if you ever thought about how penalties affect the outcome. It would be interesting to see if a more penalized team is more likely to lose a game? I would think that it would hurt you because of field position, but also because it signifies a less disciplined team.
Perhaps I’ll do the research myself.
Penalty Yards
Atl 54, NE 10…. check
Ten 15, NYJ 25… nope
Cle 46, Bal 84… nope
Was 97, Det 58… check
GB 51, Stl 40… nope
KC 90, PHI 20… check
NYG 60, TB 25… nope
SF 60, Min 52… check
JAX 40, Hou 60… check
Chi 60, Sea 45… nope
NO 97, Buf 116… check
Pit 51, Cin 30… check
Mia 31, SD 20… check
Den 30, Oak 53… check
Ind 69, Ari 35… nope
Car 60, Dal 80… nope
Ok, that’s 9-7 for teams that won the “penalty battle” this week. though this doesn’t include penalties that were not accepted. Hard to say that this is convincing yet. I’d be interested to see how this trends over a larger sample.
All penalties are not created equal.
Defensive penalties (except maybe PI) can be overcome. The O gets a 1st down but you can still stop them.
Offensive penalties, especially the big ones, can be drive killers – mini turnovers. Look at the impact of the phantom holding call on Weigman in the Bengals game. It wasn’t just a 10 yard penalty. It nulified a 20 yard gain (making it more like a 30 yard penalty) practically took us out of FG range, and set up 3rd and long.
I remember reading a stat on this somewhere. I’ll see if I can find it.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 30, 2009 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree
I was thinking about this during the dallas/car game. And there were some penalties that just made the game difficult to watch. Flozell Adams is a crippling penalty waiting to happen, and their false start from the 1/2 yard line on 4th down is inexcusable. I really thought both teams killed themselves with critical penalties in that game.
But then again… the Ravens are almost at the bottom of the league with the most penalty yards. I have to agree that all penalties are not created equal. But all of this being said, as a broncos fan, I am proud that our team is penalized among the fewest in the league, and I have to believe that it does tell us something about this team’s ability. Perhaps penalties can set apart teams of similar ability, though it won’t turn the tides if a team is simply outmatched.
skinny
I was keeping track up penalties for awhile, but did not find nearly the correlation with winning percentage, so I stopped. For awhile I treated them separately from yardage, but also looked at them as part of the total yards category. I think there is merit in looking at them, however. As SWG says below, they are not created equal, so I was having a tough time figuring out how to formulate what you are saying…..please keep thinking about this and would appreciate your thoughts on it.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Dude
you are my hero, bringing these stats out to trot every week. Love it! Keep up the excellent, thought provoking work!
Conversation nonstarters: hoping McDaniels fails, comparing Bears to Broncos, Cutler to Orton, apples to oranges, and casual drinkers to Raiders fans.
no problem, montana, I need to keep up with all of the other posts, though!
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Dude I hate to say it but...
every time I read your posts I can’t help but see Jeff Bridges ( in his tough guy persona) actually saying everything your saying!!! it almost over shadows what your saying!!!! That is such a great avatar!!!! My kitten with a sniper rifle seems so… well… cliche, I am determined to find an avatar that more correctly represents my true character ……………it is my mission….carry on with your bad self
"even a stopped clock is right twice a day" Yosemite Sam
by lovewatchinthegame on Sep 30, 2009 11:10 PM MDT reply actions
lwtg
If you only knew how many times I have seen the movie you would laugh. I can even quote the movie in Spanish since I used it to help learn the language.
Imagine hearing John Goodman say, “Duudde….Los Blancos!” (the whites) and Lebowski saying , “Los hombres fuertes lloran tambien.” (Strong Men also cry). I laugh at both tracks.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
That sounds a lot like watching
Kung Fu Theatre. A Riot! Lwtg, please don’t change Sniper Kitty. He is cool, even though I’m allergic to cats. Lol
"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa
Yet again...
Ignore stats when Peyton’s playing.
Love the analysis and continue to agree with it to a point, but I still grin when all the tendencies in the world are continuously offset/made irrelevant by the presence of a supposedly unimportant franchise, game-changing QB.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Improv
Agreed. Sometimes you just watch Houdini escape from his upside down torture chamber and say, I don’t know how the hell you did that, but it’s pretty cool.
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.

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