So, what do our friends at WCG think of Kyle Orton?
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 8, 2009 7:20 PM MDT
109 comments
I created a poll over at WCG to get a feel for what they thought of our new starting QB. A link to the fan post and poll is here. Please feel free to go over there and take a look.
An overwhelming majority of the nice folks over there think Kyle Orton is an average QB and a game manager. I wonder if I would have been better off leaving out the descriptions in the answers altogether? Maybe some people would see "game manager" as less than average … more of a put down? Don’t know. Live and learn, I guess. One person put him in the top 10 (and I stretched it to 10 to give him a chance). Only 3 people (and I was not one of them) said he isn’t a starter in the NFL. And a smattering of folks think he is either above average or below average.
Some of the comments were also interesting (good often accompanying bad):
The good:
- he is very good at the short passing game ….. (snipped bad) ….. but he usually makes good decisions
- He is an intellegent QB
- he can win with a good defense and running game
- but he can chuck it pretty far
- but he wins over his teammates, he plays hard and he is capable of making plays to win games
- Orton may not lose you too many games,
- he is smart and makes good decisions
The bad:
- He has some trouble with Deep Ball accuracy
- if you get involved in a shoot out Kyle is not your man
- his physical skills limit his overall performance
- If you quickly find youreself down by 10-14 points, you might want to see if your wife has any projects around the house
- he is the master of the Dump off screen on third and forever
- but he’s not real accurate after 25 yards
- I don’t think Denver is a place that he’ll do particularly well unless the defense really steps it up
- Orton’s best passing performances have always come against the Lions. He’s not talented enough to regularly extend the play or make things happen when things break down. And the inaccuracy of his deep throws will drive you nuts.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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heh, i saw this. not a bad fan post either, hopefully people don’t flip out.
i’m hoping for a good defense and running game, regardless of the player under center (or rather, in shotgun)
by lolcopter on Sep 8, 2009 7:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Accuracy on long throws
Bob, first off, nice work and thanks for doing it.
The only thing I wanted to throw out there (pun only intended after I noticed it) is that I wonder how accurate any QB is on long throws.
I remember Elway, for example, overthrowing a lot of people on long throws. I also distinctly remember McDaniels talking in the spring about how there are typically only a couple really long throws in a game, and you certainly can’t build an offense around that type of play.
Thing is, if you’re making a lot of long throws, it means you’re trying to catch up, which means the other team knows you’re going to do that, which means you’re going to see two deep coverage and lots of pressure from the front seven, and that makes it even harder to be accurate.
Anyway, enough of that – thanks again.
by ShawnDenver on Sep 8, 2009 7:52 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I never really thought
about it like that Shawn. Wow what a great comment
by papasteven on Sep 8, 2009 8:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
great comment Shawn.
The only thing I’d add is for whatever the reason, the MSM believes you have to throw the ball long to make room for you offense later. I think in the days of Johnny Unitas that might have been true, but in today’s offenses there are an awful lot of throws in the 5-15 yard range. Orton makes those throws beautifully.
by bchiper on Sep 9, 2009 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not so much whether you can throw the long ball
it’s whether the defense or defensive coordinator thinks you can. It’s the threat that counts because all defenses are predicated on taking something away and making you play to your weakness. If the league doesn’t think Orton can be accurate past 20 yards, they’ll design defenses that cap the DB responsibilty zone and concentrate their personnel more heavily in the short and intermediate zones. Some of the spread and Orton’s accuracy can overcome some of that, but he’d have an easier time of it if defenses believed he could go frozen rope for 25 anytime he needed to. We’ll see. Go Broncs!
It's "just" football
by Donkhead on Sep 9, 2009 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he makes the frozen rope for 25 when he needs to...
at Chicago, he didn’t need to nor did he have time to when it was there. His arm strength in grossly underrated IMHO.
by bchiper on Sep 9, 2009 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a lot of deep passes are run
out of a three step drop… and that is pretty much all he did in Chicago.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Sep 9, 2009 7:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Read the shootout comments make me laugh because HELLO he played for the BEARS . That offense was not built to play in shootouts but ours is .
Also people mention if you get down early but failtop mention that Orton has one of the highest 1st quarter QBR ratings in the league and the Bears had the second best first quarter offense in the league followed by ours which was 3rd .
That tells me that if we can control the clock and game plan well then we can win some games with Orton because our offense will start strong so if we can control the clock we can force the opponents to play catch up given our ballhawks chance to get some to’s
Hes never played with a true #1 receiver so who should he go to on 3rd and forever ? and does anyone believe that the Bears had a play that could pick up a 3rd and forever that Orton decided not to run .
the deep ball concerns so far in his career are based off of him throwing to converted DB Devin Hester who the guy with the cannon arm also missed short and long in the preseason.
I think I will judge Ortons deep ball on his play with real receivers like our own .
by Hoopforia on Sep 8, 2009 8:03 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to add
on the third and forevers if your O line can’t block for you then you almost always have to dump it off or call a screen becasue that is all you have time for.
by papasteven on Sep 8, 2009 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He never played with good receivers on anything and anything
Nice job Bob. I like the initiative you took. I have to admit, though – I still have trouble with the idea that a bunch of folks who don’t necessarily know all that much about football are the ‘source’ for info on Kyle. I’ve read some pretty strange things over there. I enjoyed watching his games and breaking down the film, though. It told me a lot.
The list of their comments misses a pretty central point: Turner had a terribly predictable offense. They ran on 1st, ran on 2nd and expected Orton to make 6 yards on third with a blitz package coming and poor receivers. Shockingly, it wasn’t that great on 3rd down. Go figure. They would also suddenly move from an effective pass attack to the run – see the Philly game. It was as strange as Jeremy Bates’ aversion to running the ball in Denver last year and had a similar effect – bad outcomes. the Bears still won a few, and it wasn’t all the defense, either.
We know that Orton has had happy feet. We also know that he tended to hold the ball too long (“Patting the baby”). Third up, we know that his knockdowns and hurries were way too high, his line was porous and he often didn’t have an open man to throw to. This is either his fault or the logical outcome of the situation he was put in. We don’t have to pick one – by the end of this season, we’ll know. The fact that Forte was his primary receiver should tell us that he had to go to his checkdown pretty constantly. This is another way to say, “We didn’t give him much of a chance.”
Since the man had a QB rating of over 100 on the 2 minute offense, didn’t throw a single INT in the 2 minute drill and the Broncos’ had comparatively terrible numbers, there are pretty obviously some factors that aren’t being discussed. nycbroncosfan also had Orton at a QB rating of 96 in the red zone with a TD% of 22.03 and an INT percentage of 1.69%. That doesn’t really jibe with the idea that he can’t score points. By the way, a certain other QB had a red zone rating of 75.1 and an INT rating of 4.76 with a TD percentage of 20.24. Orton was also sacked more than twice as much in the red zone, and after watching the games, it wasn’t his lack of mobility. He was swarmed. I’d suggest that we see what he can do over a season and judge for ourselves.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 8, 2009 8:49 PM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
Very well said bear.
Different system in Chicago than he was really used to at Purdue. Different system here in Denver than at Chicago. Kyle will feel more comfortable once he and the boys get on the same page.
by bfree2bronc on Sep 8, 2009 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to beat a dead squirrel....but also
don’t you think Orton’s play was a reflection of the coaching he received? When was the last time Chicago was actually able to develop a QB?
I mean its only a logical step if you want to compare systems, you need to compare coaching right?
McD = 2 low round draft picks (6th and 7th) into 2 high quality (one elite) starting QB’s in only 8 years…..I’d have to say we win that comparison ;) And I think Orton will be just fine :)
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy, Am I or the others crazy?" -Albert Einstein
by Disturbed70 on Sep 8, 2009 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
don’t you think Orton’s play was a reflection of the coaching he received
I do. I’ve never read anywhere that Ron Turner is a great, innovative or exceptional QBs coach. I wish him the best and I admire anyone who can do the OC job in th NFL, but he hasn’t done much with the QB position per se. As some have noted – now it’s up to Kyle. He’s gotten all the advantages, and McDaniels isn’t likely to pull him is he has a bad day. He’ll have a shot to show folks the job he can do. All the best to him.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One question for you bear
Do you think you know more about football, especially the quarterback position, than the management and coaching staff employed by the Chicago Bears?
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 9, 2009 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silly question
Please note that I admire Turner, as stated. Turner does not have a reputation for turning out good QBs. He did a bad job with Orton and a bad job with Grossman. It doesn’t have anything to do with me or ‘what I know’, Bob. What I do know is that I’ve gone over his record and that’s are just the way it reads. No point in getting personal.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not meant to be personal at all
The only point I was going to get to, since you dismiss Bear fan opinions and comments as not being valuable, is that according to people who get paid to evaluate talent, Kyle Orton is exactly two 1st round draft picks and a 3rd rounder minus a 5th round choice worse than Jay Cutler. That is it. Really, it is the only objective measure we currently have of the relative worth of the two qbs, correct?
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 9, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all, Bob
What you have is the measure of what a couple of people were willing to pay to get a QB since they are on the hot seat. Lovie’s time will run out unless he hits a home run and that’s what he’s hoping. SWG is giving you one simple measure that makes a lot more sense.
But, it’s a fair question. Answer me this one in return?
You have a player who has a nice college career as a QB. His scouting report says:
he loves the shotgun, needs time to mature, doesn’t like being under center and has great decision-making skills.
But, you draft him and place him in an under-center, low shotgun percentage system, remove most of his decision-making at the line and toss him onto the field in the 1st half of the season, as Chi did with Orton. The same happens with players all over the league every year. It’s pretty strange. In this case, you’re asking me to explain why Chicago does things and frankly, I can’t. Their approach hasn’t made much sense to me up until now.
What I do think about the situation is that Chicago believes that they have a shot this year and that they’re in the ‘1 player away’ category. They think Cutler is that player. That’s fine – Cutler is a QB with a lot of potential, tons of natural talent and some problems with maturity and decision-making on the field. Perhaps he’ll do very well, perhaps not. If they win the SB, he was worth the price. If not, he probably wasn’t, but that’s not in any way connected to what a QB is ‘worth’.
I also agree with SWG’s next point. Offensively, which do you see as knowing more about the QB position, McD or Smith/turner? Offense in general? Who has the better record with QBs? Who has done more offensively? If it’s not Smith/turner, what’s the point here?
None of this is about me knowing more than anyone in football, by the way. My point on the idea of asking fans what they think as if they are authorities is that I have no reason to believe that they are more than the usual fans. You hear a lot of bad football knowledge on the sites – the recent thing about how you stack the box to block the short pass, which is inaccurate, is a single example but it’s useful in that it shows why I don’t put a ton of stock in fans’ opinions. Folks who coach, like HT and SWG, I listen to far more. I also read the records and stats on different coaches and make decisions based on that. Nothing new.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair points and analysis
Especially the needing to hit a home run theory.
As to the McD versus Smith/Turner, here is the huge problem I have with that. We don’t know how much of NE’s success on offense over the past several years was due to McD and how much of it was due to Belichick. Everyone is just assuming that McD was the mastermind behind everything, and solely responsible for the success that Cassell had last year when Brady went down? I’m not 100% sold that he is the genius that everyone here seems to 100% believe that he is. Could he be? Sure. But he could also be the worst hire Bowlen has ever made.
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 9, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
However, two points – first, he was also responsible for the QBs and brought Cassel along. That we do know, and here’s a guy who hadn’t started a game since high school who then wins what, 10 games? I know the record was 11-5, but I’m not sure who they gave the 1st victory to.
Second – We also know that McD was calling the plays from 2005 onward. Look at the 2007 stats – sure, great players, but there was a lot of pretty brilliant scheming that was done, too.
Time will tell on McD, but what does catch my eye is the number of times that people who don’t like him belittle the things that he has done and deserves credit for. Will he be a great HC? We’ll see ;-)
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
$ and cents
So does that make Ryan Leaf better than Cutler? I wonder what McDaniels could have done with that pile of cow dung!
by Trogdoor on Sep 9, 2009 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
based on their historical performance with QBs
I’d say there’s a good chance he does.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 9, 2009 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
A better question would be...
who do you think knows more about offense and QBs: McDaniels or Smith/Turner?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 9, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There seems to be a double standard at work here.
So you have the Bears fans saying that KO is a weak-armed, immobile, inaccurate, mediocre QB who can’t make the throws, based on his experience in Chicago. You also have the Bears fans that say that JC will not be a red-zone turnover machine, will not sulk by himself after a mistake, and will not throw his teammates under the bus because you can’t compare his time in Chicago to his time in Denver.
Basically it boils down to “our old QB is gonna suck in Denver, because of what he did in Chicago, but don’t you dare tell us that our new QB is gonna suck in Chicago based on what he did in Denver.”
That seems unfair to Orton on one hand and grossly overoptimistic of Cutler on the other.
Now to be fair, some of us Denver fans (myself included) have been guilty of doing the same thing in the other direction, and it isn’t any more right when we do it.
Like Bear said above, what it comes down to is what these guys actually do with their new teams over the course of a season.
I just look forward to a time after this season, when we know what we have, good or bad.
Maybe then we can put this issue to rest.
DP Message Board Refugee & Drinker of Kool-Aid
I don’t like quarterbacks. - DOOM
by jubei on Sep 9, 2009 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a life long Bears fan
I’ve watched every pass Orton has thrown in the NFL and I can tell you that the reason the guy was just traded along with 2 number ones and a 3rd for a player who plays the same position is because he’s mediocre and can’t make the throws. Period. That’s who he is.
He didn’t play with a #1 reciever, but he played with a pretty good running back and 2 pretty good tight ends and contrary to popular belief, the O-line was pretty solid for him last year. So the question becomes, why was the guy in a whole bunch of 3rd and longs? Was it just because our recievers were inept or could it possibly be because Orton couldn’t take advantage of big plays on first and second down?
Whether it’s Larry Fitzgerald or Devin Hester, an under thrown inaccurate ball is just that… an under thrown, inaccurate ball. And trust me, your offense looked different when Brandstater ran it as oppose to Kyle because the threat of being able to go downfield effects the way a defense plans against you. Mcdaniels may have the holy grail of systems but if the guy running it can’t make certain NFL throws, you’re going to see a lot of screens and dink and donks and not by choice. I hope Moreno ‘s knee is ok because it’s going to be a long and busy season for that rookie. Ask Matt Forte.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always nice to hear your perspective, Dils
So the question becomes, why was the guy in a whole bunch of 3rd and longs
Well, according to both film and stats, it’s because Lovie and Co. liked to run it on 1st and second down and your yards per carry was an average of under 4. That leaves a lot of third and long, and that’s what you had.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Factor in some untimely penalties, and you make things even worse.
If your OC subscribes to the Dan Reeves ‘run up the middle on 1st and 2nd down, and then hope your QB converts’ philosophy, don’t blame the quarterback. Although, since any and all lack of offensive production seems to be due entirely to Orton, I guess <4ypc on early downs is his fault too.
DP Message Board Refugee & Drinker of Kool-Aid
I don’t like quarterbacks. - DOOM
by jubei on Sep 9, 2009 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Broncobear
Season’s approaching so I thought I’d touch base with some knowlegable NFL fans and see what’s going on before the big weekend
.
As far as your comment, I guess it begs the question, what constitutes 3rd and long. I don’t have stats in front of me but I remember the Bears throwing a few times on first and second down as well last year. And even if we got off the bus running, as Lovie likes to say, at worst Orton should’ve been in 3rd and 4-5 yard territory right?
The reality is that a relative 3rd and 4 or 5 for QBs that can make the necassary throws is considered a 3rd and long for Orton because of his limitations. Now this isn’t to say he had the greatest tools to work with but I think it’s fair to say that if Turner has scouted his QB and knows what plays he’s capable of completing, then you better believe that opposing defenses have as well and are going to dictate what Orton can do. I know for a fact that Turner stripped that playbook with Orton. Even when Orton went down and Grossman came in for his short stint, there were more plays designed for Hester downfield.
The real issue is the old argument of does the QB make the reciever or vice versus? Maybe it’s a mixture of the two. But I’d love if someone could give Brandon Marshall some truth serum and ask him the real reason he was acting like brat and wants out. I think he knows that his stats, then in turn his money, will take a huge hit without a QB who is capable of getting him the ball.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, help me out here Dils..
What limitations are you referring to when you say.
The reality is that a relative 3rd and 4 or 5 for QBs that can make the necassary throws is considered a 3rd and long for Orton because of his limitations.
Surely you’re not saying Orton can’t complete a 5 yard pass whether it’s an out or a cross !
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I'm not saying that at all
All Im saying is that a QB doesn’t play in a vacuum. There are other factors at play like what the defense will allow to happen. If it’s established that Orton is not an accurate QB ooutside of 20 yards downfield then that’s one less thing that a defense has to worry about. It doesn’t matter who the reciever is if they QB can’t get it to him.
So it’s easier to slip that extra man in the box on a running down or to play a more risky defense in order to stop Orton on that 3rd and 5. Maybe that 5 yard slant or cross isn’t there if the defense decides to concede the outside pass and play man-to-man on the outside receiver and bring that nickel back into coverage. A QB that’s a threat to challege that single covered receiver on the outside makes the defense react to him and maybe play a different coverage.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair point but the question still remains
Were Orton’s so called “limitations” a product of his inability to make the throws, the OC’s inability to call the right plays or the OL’s inability to give him enough time to make the throw. I’ve watched game tape on just about every one of his throws from last year and of course from this preseason and while no one will ever say he has a cannon it’s borderline ridiculous to say he can’t throw the midrange pass very accurately / effectively. From watching his games last year he rarely had time to allow the 20+ downfield routes to develop. I’m not saying the Oline sucked either 16th in the league is right in the middle of the pack, it does however probably explain the tendency for the dump passes to Forte.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly and if you take into account what oOrton said a couple of weeks ago that he was told that if his FIRST READ was not there to get rid of it .
This points to one thing that Bears fans will never admit . That everyone knew that O-line was garbage and that because Ortons ability to be committed to getting rid of the ball actually made them look much better than they actually were hence the revamping of that line that started before Orton even was traded .
You have to be committed to going downfield as a offense but also have the weapons to be able to get open as well. You hear all about how dangerous Hester is gonna be and then what did we see this preseason ? Cutler under throwing and then over throwing as well and then basically moving onto focusing on finding Olsen on key 3rd downs .
Its very easy to blame Orton for everything wrong with the Bears offense but when you see him run the no huddle or the two minute drill and see some of the plays he would call for himself you dont see dump offs to Forte or quick outs .He attacks every part of the field and keeps the defenses guessing. That tells me he didnt limit himself and what we saw from that OC was part of a game plan for the Bears to win football games not feature Orton or worry about his development as a player .
by Hoopforia on Sep 9, 2009 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
To answer your question...
His limitations as defined by me is his inability to stretch the field and make the type of plays consistently that would allow a broadening of the playbook. Which in turn gives an advantage to opposing defenses. There were plenty and I mean plenty of big plays left on the field last year by Kyle Orton. I can specifically remember 2 deep throws to Hester that were underthrown. And the only reason those were big plays were because of pass interferance calls.
As far as the dump passes to Forte, perhaps recievers weren’t open and that’s where the ball had to go. Or perhaps a QB knowing his limitations, attempts to make the safe throw because he knows what plays he can’’t make and what areas he can’t fit the ball. After 3 preseason games there are people already complaining about his short, underneath throws. And what does he have to show for it so far? 4 interceptions in what 5 or 6 qts of football? So it’s not like he’s being accurate with the pases that he is throwing. But it is early and he’s getting use to the system so only time will tell.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This inability to stretch the field is based on what ? having Devin Hester as the primary receiver ? To stretch the field you have to have some on the other end able to make plays .As I said jay throwing to Hester looked eerily similar to Orton throwing to Hester . Maybe Hester just isnt very good and is more of a limited speedster type of receiver .
Orton himself said that he was told to make his first read and if not there get rid of it . That has nothing to do with Ortons limitations but the limitations of the personnel around him as the bears knew going into tyhe season that the line was terrible .
The only people complaining are the ones who have no idea what they are talking about because all it takes is a quick search on the net to find out that Mcdaniels offense is ball control offense based around short and medium passes.
Interceptions in preseason football dont mean anything because what they are doing is never about the numbers . Aj Feely has much better numbers than McNabb in the preseason but does that mean coaches think he outplayed McNabb ? of course not because starters are almost never evaluated on numbers in the preseason .
A s for accuracy he finished the preseason at 67% which aint bad at all and a few mistakes in the first game of the preseason in entirely new offense should be expected .
by Hoopforia on Sep 9, 2009 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Broncos staff aren't idiots
If Orton is as pathetic as you say, then McDaniels and Co. would be starting Simms or Brandstater, and Orton would already be 3rd string. But that’s not the case, so I’m going to give Orton the benefit of the doubt and see how it goes. And my prediction is still 7-9, because there is too much turnover everywhere else on top of QB.
I just can’t wait for the season to start! Go Broncos!
by Trogdoor on Sep 9, 2009 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone thinks Orton is pathetic
He is very serviceable and a good leader as long as you don’t ask him to do too much. This offense suits him much better. He is very accurate in the 10 yard range. When he has to throw down field is when he struggles. Arm strength is really not the issue, he is just consistent accuracy when throwing longer down field. It’s not that he can’t do it, but when he is in a third and long(8-12 yards). Sometimes he makes a nice accurate throw and sometimes he doesn’t so his third down conversion rate is not as good as it could be. Were there factors contributing to this? Of course, wr’s lack of separation, not enough time in the pocket at times? yes. But he had adequate times on most throws to make the play and it just didn’t happen all the time. He gets a little nrevous in the pocket at times, hokds the ball too long, and does not have good pocket presence. I have seen him play and he looks great at all the throws under neath (he must have completed 5 bubble screens against the bears alone). But he also has looked shaky at times on his throws beyond those and that is his MO and I don’t think more time and coaching is going to cure that especially from someone who has been coaching offense for all of 4 years. Ask Charlie Weis how that works with a turnover at QB.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
preseason viewing
I have seen him play and he looks great at all the throws under neath (he must have completed 5 bubble screens against the bears alone). But he also has looked shaky at times on his throws
(this preseason)…
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I was sayng he’s pathetic either but I think it’s unfair when people just come out and say “He didn’t have recievers” or “His O-line sucked” or “It was the system under Turner”. He had something to do with calls that were made in the huddle as well. Whether it’s moving the pocket or throwing a fly pattern to Hester, those things are decided based off what the QB’s limitations are.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Dils
His Oline didn’t “suck”. They were average, 27 sacks allowed last year which was about 16th in the league. Just think if their QB had any pocket presence to move around or not hold the ball too long it could have been around 20..
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
It’ll be interesting to see how good that Broncos o-line is without a QB moving the pocket and keeping plays alive. Don’t get me wrong, they’re pretty darn good, but I’m curious to see what the affect of this trade will be on the two o-lines.
by Dils on Sep 9, 2009 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think pressure will be an issue for them
as it seems most of their throws are in the short to intermediate range which will be fine for KO to succeed at.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys
As far as these comments – this is kind of silly, really. Orton’s been making 40 yard passes since high school. The stuff that you keep coming on here and claiming has been proven to be false over an over again. I appreciate that it’s your opinion, but that really doesn’t mean a hill of beans. And yes, I’ve watched Orton, all of the games in 2008 and most of them before, as well as some of his work at Purdue.
He can’t make a 15 yard pass? Really? Do you even believe that nonsense?
As far as moving the pocket – so, the answer to why the Broncos had few sacks is that Cutler has such great feet? That’s not true, and anyone with 40 bucks and NFL Rewind can show it to you in a few minutes. By the same logic, Brady and Manning should have tons of sacks, but they don’t. Orton’s ability to make decisions and read coverages has been covered time and again. He’s very good at it, and your claiming that he’s not is a waste of both of our time.
Its’ nice that Cutler is mobile – that’s one way to avoid pressure,but it shouldn’t be the first and it certainly isn’t the only. You keep making weird claims. If you believe them, fine. I’ve yet to hear a single stat that proves what you’re saying, though, and I’ve posted dozens that show the reverse. It’s always good to have other opinions and you’re more than welcome, but hey – try to bring something substantive. Every fan seems to say, "I’ve been a fan since XXXX (I was watching Sayers and Butkus at Wrigley, so I’m not that impressed by this one) or “I’ve watched all of his games, so I know.” Ok. Let me ask you something – have you ever coached a down of football? Where do you get the knowledge that you say you have? I’m not trying to be rude, but it’s a fair point. This is why:
What I did, when putting together material for the articles I’ve written on this, was to spend a lot of time on a lot of research, watched a lot of game film and then i went to professional coaches, asked questions and got some answers. Everything they said disagrees with what you’re claiming. That being the case, I’m going to bow out of this one and you can keep on if you want.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your really twisitng statements aren't you bear?
" He can’t make a 15 yard pass"
Who has said that? Both our points are to his consistency in making those plays as stated above, not that he can’t do it.
“so, the answer to why the Broncos had few sacks is that Cutler has such great feet?”
Again, not said or implied. I have said numerous times that the Broncos line is very good and Dils stated above the same. But if you don’t think that Ortons immobility will not lead to an additional sack or two then who is kidding who?
“By the same logic, Brady and Manning should have tons of sacks, but they don’t. Orton’s ability to make decisions and read coverages has been covered time and again. He’s very good at it, and your claiming that he’s not is a waste of both of our time.”
you’re not really comparing him to Brady or Manning are you? You are a very good writer with some excellent articles but you are crossing the line here. Do you think that you are the only one who goes back and breaks down game taped after the fact? To say orton is very good at reading coverages and making decisions is stretching it. He is good at managing the game and with that comes his checkdown game which he excels at. But you can’t tell me on third down that the guy is a whiz at going to his second option and completing the third and 8 to 10 becuase he is not. If he was he would still be on our team (You know the guys that get paid for doing this?? They don’t think so either) I am not trying to insult you as you are very knowledgeable in this regards but don’t assume that we do not know a thing about “out team or players” simply because we do not agree with your theories on Kyle Orton.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not about me, trfaotta
Lots of folks do. Many of the folks around here do, but many of the statements that I’m hearing are inaccurate. To wit:
When you ask who’s saying that he can’t make 5 yard throws:
The reality is that a relative 3rd and 4 or 5 for QBs that can make the necassary throws is considered a 3rd and long for Orton because of his limitations.
Ok?
The issue on Cutler having less sacks because of the Broncos line has been made here many times. The film shows that it is overblown and often inaccurate. Sure, lots of folks can look at the film, and I hope they do.
No one compared Orton to Manning. However – the principle is the same no matter the QB and that includes Orton. Orton has some happy feet from being knocked down and hurried so often. Many folks have commented on it. Kyle mentioned it himself. The Broncos coaches are working on it with him. It really is because the Bears’ line wasn’t good at protection. the sacks were pretty average, the hurries and knockdowns high. Sorry that you don’t agree.
Dils also brought up the “I’ve seen all his games…” issue. It still isn’t much of an argument to me. If you don’t agree, that’s fine.
Orton is more than OK at making reads. It’s been mentioned by Coach McDaniels, Coach McCoy and last year there were quite a few articles on different websites around the league, including Chicago’s and several others, that mentioned the same thing. The opposing coaches mentioned it in several cases. If you disagree, that’s fine, but what I said is well documented.
This isn’t personal for me and I’m sorry if it is for you. I can see why this irritates you – I’m sure that you feel like I’m being dismissive – but I’m not talking to bug you. I’m telling you how I see this. I’ve heard all these arguments a dozen times, different folks here have broken them down and checked them out and they haven’t been provable. If you do have some proof to the contrary, I’d be glad to listen.
By the way, a lot of the players on the Bears were shocked when Orton was traded and differed from your statement on the guys who play this game. I guess this is why I’m bowing out – the statements that are being made aren’t necessarily accurate and they’re being given with no supporting evidence. After going through it many, many times, I hope that you can understand why it gets kind of old.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry it's not personal
I respect your opinion very much. But just to clarify,
“the Bears’ line wasn’t good at protection. the sacks were pretty average, the hurries and knockdowns high. Sorry that you don’t agree.”
But I do agree, I have stated above that they were average and finished 16 in the league in sacks allowed hence “average”. But the guy was not constantly being harrassed as you claim.
“Orton is more than OK at making reads.”
again my comment sys that he was good at it, just not “very good” as you claim.
“By the way, a lot of the players on the Bears were shocked when Orton was traded and differed from your statement on the guys who play this game”
Would you expect them to toss him under the bus? The team really liked him as we did, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the limitations that are discussed.
It’s great that Coach McDaniels and other Bronco coaches want to tell you about all the great things Orton has done and what they see in him, becuase that will sell tickets and create confidnec in his new environment. You can look all kinds of things up by the MSM (whether you believe them or not) saying things the other way. I am not here to bash Ko as i like the guy and hope he does well. Time will tell as to his performance. I hope no ill feelings for some football discussion.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course no ill feelings
I’m sorry it’s not personal
Um, by that I meant that it’s not a personal disagreement between you and me, not that I dislike you or Dils personally. Fankly, I like having you here. I don’t agree with your conclusions, but that’s just rational civil discourse.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandstater?
When did he become a downfield threat? Oh, after he was sacked four times in his only other outing. That explains it.
by bleedbroncos on Sep 11, 2009 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Orton and Marshall hook up
it’s going to be ‘katie-barred-the-door’ for opposing folks. The long throw is a surprise play that they hope they make it, other than that screens, over the middle and slant types are more prevalent.
by bfree2bronc on Sep 8, 2009 8:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
What the hell?
This is nowhere near as entertaining as any of your blogs on MHH. I’m disappointed.
"You were born to be a player. You were meant to be here. This moment is yours." -- Coach Herb Brooks' pregame speech prior to the Miracle on Ice
by wtnelson on Sep 8, 2009 8:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
When the Cutler trade first went down I’ll admit I was pretty ticked off about the whole thing. It was actually going into WCG’s archives and reading they’re posts and comments about Orton from last season and prior to the Cutler trade that began to ease my mind. It was the research done by myself and many of the fine folks at MHR, broncobear comes to mind in particular, that really helped me feel relatively good about the whole deal. However, the final factor will obviously be decided by Orton himself.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Sep 8, 2009 9:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't aware I had any friends over at WCG. :)
I wonder what many Broncos fans would think about Cutler… I am sure there would be a wealth of opinion on the subject…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
by Tim Lynch on Sep 8, 2009 9:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Name sounds familiar? Cutler you say?
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Sep 8, 2009 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutler?
isn’t he that body builder?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 9, 2009 7:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
reigning Mr Olympia I believe
which means he probably does have an arm that’s stronger than Elway’s. ;-p
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by BShrout on Sep 9, 2009 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was
the howdy doodie dummy myself. Boy was I wrong.
by papasteven on Sep 9, 2009 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah! Mr Metrosexual
Did you see that spread in that Chicago magazine? hahaha!
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
too cool for school
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
by Jeremy Bolander on Sep 9, 2009 7:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strange
Since I posted this, the above average votes have jumped up signficantly and there are even two more “top 10” votes. Quit spilling your koolaid over at WCG, MHRers!
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 9, 2009 12:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Statistically
the result are about the same. Almost 75% think of Orton as an average QB, which is probably an accurate representation of his time in Chicago. The operative question though, is to what degree was his performance in Chicago reflective of his abilities versus reflecting the system he was playing in. My eye tells me he is much better than his critics would have us believe, though probably not as good as his apologists claim. On the whole I would rate him very comparably to Plummer. He’s not as mobile as Jake, but seems to make fewer mistakes.
Very few successful teams are actually carried by the QB. Even Elway didn’t win the SB until he became more of a game manager and relied more on his supporting cast.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 9, 2009 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
the teams with very good quarterbacks are always in the mix for the playoffs year in and year out.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then either Cutler is not a very good QB or
the teams make the QB’s look very good.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
I think tfrabotta believes that you cannot win the SB without a “great” QB, whatever that means. Reading his profile, he appears to post most often on WCG. Therefore I assume he is sticking up for his new QB who he desperately wants to believe is a “great” QB and will take them to the SB.
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not call Jay Cutler a great Qb
He has a long way to go before he reaches that realm. He has potential but let’s see what he does with that.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not True
Cosider the Bengals’ Carson Palmer
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
in the playoffs until the steeler Dlineman rolled his leg
hasn’t been healthy since..
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the year before that ??
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, check your stats before you reply!
Carson Palmer came into the league in 03 and started in 04. He was 7-9 in 07 and 8-8 in 06. HAd a good year with a solid TEAM in 05.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right his first year he played was 04
so he basically was a “rookie” that year playing for the first time. Let not forget it is the cincinnati bengals by the way…
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok I'll try again
He was injured in 08, 7-9 in 07, 8-8 in 06 and had a good sophomore year in 05. The point was that he is a great QB and doesn’t seem to be able to get his team back to the playoffs or even close. You said
in the playoffs until the steeler Dlineman rolled his leg
which clearly wasn’t the case before the injury, Then you said he was a rookie before the injury which wasn’t the case either. All I’m asking is for you to get your facts right before throwin gthem out randomly.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
rAre saying that he has been completely healthy
since the playoff game in 05? That is my point. This year may be his first healthy year since.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're a moving target
I give up…..
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has he been healthy since then?
That has been my point since the beginning.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Healthy enough to play 16 full games in 06 and 07.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 6:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course..
He had a knee injury in Jan 06 that usually takes a full 2 years to get back to where you physically so he played on one leg for 2 years only to go out again next year.so if you say he was healthy just becuase he played I will take your word for it. By the way, who is the one that said he was a great QB anyway??
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Begs The Question
Is the QB or is it the team? The QB or his OLine? The QB or his receivers? Was Dan Marino a bad QB? Is Ben Roethlisberger, statistically a middle of the pack QB, really “very good?” Is Kerry Collins a “very good” QB?
This QB worship is without merit imo.
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
QB makes the team in my opinion
How else can you explain the teams the usually win the superbowl?
Brady, Manning, Rothlisberger, Warner. These guys have won most of the superbowls in the 2000’s. What about the decade before?? Elway, Favre, Aikman, Young. Qb driven league unless a team is absolutely dominant in another area (Ravens/Bucs D).
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your opinion
and we will leave it at that. Again it was my opinion..
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've Got A Lot of Company
The MSM is notorious for emphasizing QB’s. It is the glamour position in the NFL at all levels of the game. It is not surprising that many people overemphasize the position. It is, in my opinion, perhaps the most difficult “skill position” on the offense, followed closely by LT.
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But ask yourself
How many teams have won the superbowl without a great quarterback?? Not many.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
what if you don’t believe cutler is a great quarterback
have fun
by lolcopter on Sep 10, 2009 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
How did NO do last year? GB? Mark Bulger has been one of the best QBs for a few years. What has that done for StL?
by SlowWhiteGuy on Sep 9, 2009 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Mark Bulger has been one of the best QBs” ehh not sure about that, wasn’t even the best in his division. GB, it was his first year he can have a little more time than that can’t he? I am simply stating that the team that wins the superbowl 80% of the time has a great QB. Is that not a true statement??
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally fair
And if they don’t have a great qb, they absolutely must have a dominating defense. We can only hope that the Bronco defense becomes dominant in a hurry.
Our 2009-2010 Avs: The towel has been thrown into the rink.
by Bob in Boulder on Sep 9, 2009 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
They look a whole lot better so far
You guys should be excited!
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Recent Years
There is some truth to your statement when describing Brady and Peyton Manning. But I would not call Roethlisberger a “great” QB. Nor would I call Eli Manning a “great” QB. I certainly would not call Brad Johnson a “great” QB. Nor would I consider Kurt Warner a “great” QB. I would not call Trent Dilfer a “great” QB. Elway was a “great” QB, but could not win it until he had a TEAM around him (and Terrell Davis). Your statement becomes even more unrealistic as you go back further into SB history.
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are 2-3 examples in this decade of not a great QB
and you mentioned them. Dilfer, Johnson, and Manning (E). But they all did have dominating defenses. Roethlisberger not great?? Are you kidding? Did you see what he did with a porour OLine last year? Or the way he moves around in the pocket? Or the accuracy he delivers on his throws? He may not be Brady or manning, but he is right behind them. An abosolute winner.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Warner has to be
one of the most accurate QB’s we have seen. Superbowl champ and been to another with a porous OLine that couldn’t run block, MVP multiple times, he is a great QB..
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in replay to your Elway statement
my original statement was that great QB’s always have their teams in the playoff hunt. Was that not true with Elway?? Of course you are correct that to win the superbowl other pieces have to be in place. But great quarterbacks find a way to get there even with holes in other areas of the team.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
check the 1990's
my point is spot on..Elway, Favre, Aikman, Young..loaded with great QB’s.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
From another perspective
Since the QB tends to get most of the credit when a team wins and most of the blame when they don’t, I would submit there are many examples of an Avg. QB taking a team to the SB but being perceived as better due to the teams performance….ie Big Ben, Eli Manning (very avg stats but big league perception)
This probably explains your position better than saying
the team that wins the superbowl 80% of the time has a great QB.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand by the statement
Do you really think that Big Ben is average?? that is shocking..the guy has 2 rings.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
His 1st superbowl W he had one of the lowest QB ratings ever in the SB
He has been blessed to play for very good TEAMS. I do like him a lot but if he gets drafted by Detroit he’s probably already retired.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That rating by the way was 22.6
The week before in the AFC finals he played great against us and then he goes 9 for 21 with 2 picks and a fumble and still wins. So stand by your statement all you want. TEAMs win championships!
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Sep 9, 2009 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutler's Rings?
Does Cutler have any SB rings?
Has Cutler ever been to the playoffs?
It is obvious to me that you are making a case for your boy Cutler.
I agree with asinsoin and stated it earlier that Roesthlisberg is not a “great” qb and is average in the league.
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I will say about Cutler is this
he has the ability and tools to be great which we have not had. Does that mean he will be? That question has yet to be answered. But we have a shot now that we did not have before.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutler vs the Bears
I agree that Cutler has loads of potential. And if your argument that ONLY a team with a “great” QB can win the SB, then buying into Cutler’s potential makes sense of your position.
As for me trying to impartial, I hope he adds to making your TEAM better (except against the Broncos of course).
by Endzone on Sep 9, 2009 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the Bears winning a superbowl
unless he evolves into that player. Time will tell.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummm
I happen to agree with you on Big Ben – I don’t think that he gets the credit he deserves. But I have to say: the fact that he has 2 rings as ‘proof’ of something begs the question. since the Q at hand is whether or not the QB gets too much credit for SB victories, the fact that the Steelers won doesn’t necessarily mean that Ben is great. I my opinion, he is and the proof is in other areas of his performance, but citing the rings as proof is a circular argument.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Sep 9, 2009 2:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I agree with you Bear, the road to the superbowl was the impressive thing. He did most of the year last year with a poor ofeenisve line. My comment on the 2 superbowls is not the game itself but getting them there and then winning it.
by tfrabotta on Sep 9, 2009 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
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